Humanity’s ‘Most Powerful Tool’ To Fuel Crypto’s Next Rally | Karia Samaroo
Summary
Market Outlook: Bitcoin experienced a 7% drop this week, attributed to upcoming economic events like the Jackson Hole symposium and recent US inflation reports.
Regulatory Clarity: Recent regulatory developments in the US have provided clarity for digital assets, contributing to a significant rally in the crypto market this year.
Investment Strategies: Crypto treasury companies are raising billions to invest in Bitcoin, creating a supply-demand dynamic that is expected to drive further growth.
Decentralized AI: Bit Tensor is highlighted as a decentralized AI network aiming to democratize AI development, contrasting with centralized models like OpenAI.
Stable Coins: Stable coins are seen as complementary to Bitcoin, enhancing the digital finance landscape and potentially increasing demand for US treasuries.
Emerging Technologies: The integration of blockchain and AI is evolving, with projects like Bit Tensor leading the way in creating decentralized, open-source AI networks.
Company Spotlight: XTAW, a publicly traded company, focuses on Bit Tensor, aiming to expand decentralized AI and make it accessible to investors.
Future Trends: The decentralization of AI is expected to provide users with more privacy and accessibility, similar to the benefits seen with Bitcoin.
Transcript
I think it's the most powerful tool that we are creating in the history of humanity. The further that I went down that rabbit hole, the more excited I got, but also the more terrified I got of realizing that we just have a handful of companies that are controlling this future. And it's it's it's really social media all over again where we have a you know, we had a few companies with this extremely powerful network that um have control over it and are and have used it in nefarious ways. huge moves in the crypto space. Bitcoin's down 7% this week as of Wednesday afternoon ahead of Jackson Hole uh symposium. And we're looking at the altcoin spaces while Ethereum has had a huge run. What's next for stable coin adoption and what's next for the emerging of blockchain technology with AI. We'll be talking about all these themes with our next guest Caria Samuru, founder of Wonderfi, XCO and now CEO of Extal, the first publicly traded Bensor company. It's good to see you uh Kia. I've had you on my last show a couple years ago, so it's good to reconnect. You're now the CEO of a new company and you have a new name. So, new things for all of us. Great to be back. Great to see you again. Let's start by talking about Bitcoin and then I want to talk about Xtal. What is Betensor? What uh what is XTAL? Um and what does this mean for everybody interested in uh not just crypto but investing overall? Bitcoin just hit a record high above $124,000, but it's dropped 7% this week. um ahead of Fed Chair Pal's speech on Friday. Now, you've been very vocal about Bitcoin's recent rally. Let's break down some of these factors driving Bitcoin to new highs, and it's not just Bitcoin, by the way, bunch of other alts as well. Yeah, sure. So, I just think there's been so much that's happened this year really centered around clarity from the US and a lot of steps that have been taken um administration really following through on promises that were made around digital assets. And so we, you know, recently had crypto week several weeks ago where some of this legislation was kind of, you know, actually put forward and um and and taken to the next stage. And so I think it's just really we're seeing so much clarity after so many years of uncertainty around the regulation of crypto assets, uh, Bitcoin, stable coins, uh, etc. And then at the same time, we're seeing this wave of digital asset treasury companies that are bringing in crypto into the public markets in a more in a in a huge way. And uh so there's this kind of confluence of factors that has led to this huge rally this year. Uh let me just show you some charts of other things that have moved. Like I mentioned uh in my introduction, Ethereum had a huge move. This is the ETH chart. ETHUSD bit of a pullback since mid August. Now I again is this the same narrative here because Bitcoin's been moving ahead of Ethereum. In fact, Bitcoin's been leading Ethereum basically for most of the year until we've had this huge rally starting July. What happened here to ETH and the alt space? Yeah, I think that the alts are we're not in alt season yet. I think Bitcoin has definitely been leading the charge and you mentioned the the pullback that's happened. I think yeah 78% from the 124k high that was after the US inflation reports came back in higher than uh what was previously forecasted and so I think that you know that always has an impact on uh risk assets like like Bitcoin but I do think that the pullback is really being seen as more of a consolidation phase rather than us going into a reversal. So there's, you know, there's there's much more to come in this market, but with with with ETH and with different alts, I think that there's there's still a lot of um there's still a lot of room to grow in this cycle. And um yeah, I think we're we're just getting started right now. Well, what are some of the major themes that are going to be continuing to drive Bitcoin adoption and uh alt adoption throughout the rest of the year? Regulatory changes have already happened. They'll continue to happen, but most of that is now expected. What else is new? Yeah, on the Bitcoin side, the treasury companies, I I think just in general, we've seen tens of billions of dollars being raised by crypto treasury companies. Most of that is concentrated in Bitcoin because it is the leading asset. And for a lot of those companies, they have not necessarily executed their purchases of Bitcoin. So, it just comes back to supply and demand. And there is a fixed number of Bitcoin and we just keep seeing more and more demand coming in through the creation of these vehicles. And uh and that's just really the initial capital raises for these vehicles when they're when they're public. Their mandate is go out and tap capital markets, debt markets, uh bond markets, and buy more Bitcoin. And then because that's been so successful for Micro Strategy and it has been the best performing stock um you know in the last several years year after year other crypto assets are following suit ETH Salana and then other altcoins and and and using this strategy. So I do think that that's a a key piece aside from the regulatory side which you said um and kind of alluded to earlier which really just allows more institutions to play. they have a much higher degree of comfort with playing with these crypto assets and then you know retail will will follow. Does this not present more of a risk profile or a higher risk profile for Bitcoin considering that now a lot of bitcoins are going to be dominated by a few companies that are holding going to be the majority of bitcoins going forward? Doesn't that provide concentration risk to the market? I think there is some concentration risk there. it does seem like the there will be sort of a cap for most of the Bitcoin treasury companies in terms of how much uh how much Bitcoin they can actually buy. So I think there'll be sort of a natural cap for these as they as they get to to that size. Um it it definitely does concentrate things a little bit more. Um but I think in general it's positive because it just creates a better access point for um for investors that don't or can't hold crypto directly. So, you know, there's thousands and um you know, sorry, millions and millions of uh of shareholders that um that hold stock in these companies. So, while it is one company, they're you know, they have a very distributed shareholder base. And so, I see that as a as a positive. With these regulatory changes, what changes are we seeing from the consumer adoption side and particularly uh on ramping consumers or new users? Are um are exchanges now looking for new opportunities and perhaps exploring new ways to be competitive with on-ramping? Any changes there? Yeah, I think everybody's just trying to get more people into the crypto ecosystem. So, exchanges are uh looking at uh being able to bring in users through products that might be more traditionally on the Trady side or trying to blend those products. Um we're hearing the narrative of GameFi coming back up which was really prevalent in 2021 2022 and um we haven't seen much uh since then and now it's kind of you know sparking up again. I think Telegram through the Ton token and um Telegram games and apps uh that they're using is is is a huge on-ramp for uh retail or and just kind of consumer users into crypto. And I would say that's probably the um you know the the leading uh kind of on-ramp really right now. Um I think that that that's been really impressive to see you know a bill you know a billion users and they just kind of keep making crypto more accessible through through their app. Do you think Bitcoin is top for the year? That's a question I've been getting at pretty much every single dinner party have attended this summer. I would say no. I think there's room to grow for sure from here. Okay. based on based on what I think there's still more um you know I I keep going back to the to the to the treasury companies. I think there's a lot more um demand that is uh pent up and um I think just generally it it seems like there's a it's in a consolidation phase right now and um with some of the regulatory changes that have come I don't think we've necessarily seen all of the um uh you know all of the results of that yet in the market. This came in from the uh secretary of the treasury, Scott Patent. Stable coins represent a revolution in digital finance, he said. Published July 18th. The dollar now has an internet native payment rail that is fast, frictionless, and free of middlemen. This groundbreaking technology will buttress the dollar status as a global reserve currency, expand access to the dollar economy for billions across the globe, and lead to a surge in demand for US treasuries. Now, we're just wondering whether or not, first of all, do you agree with that statement? And second, if that is going to be true, I wonder if that provides a headwind to Bitcoin. Bitcoiners have long positioned themselves as one of the anti-dollar assets along with gold and other things. And so, if there's going to be more demand for uh dollars on the blockchain, in other words, stable coins, and more demand for treasuries, does that necessarily mean less demand for Bitcoin? I'll let you evaluate this. Yeah, I would say no. I think they're complimentary in the sense that Bitcoin will, you know, Bitcoin won't take over the global money supply and uh replace all money um all all fiat currency. I think it's it's something that will continue to grow and I think it's at sort of 2% of global money supply now. Um and and certainly is going to continue to grow, but I do see like I'm I'm a believer that, you know, both um both assets will continue to exist. And so that means that uh people that hold Bitcoin are still going to need to interact with the traditional financial system in some way. And that's why stable coins have grown so much in the last I mean four years or so. I think it's I think they're around $150 billion market cap now. And um we're you know don't quote me on it but I think sort of four you know 4 to5 billion in 2021 or or maybe it was yeah some something around there. So it's just just continues to grow and so I think it's really complimentary to the growth of Bitcoin and um and and other crypto assets. Well, you've been an entrepreneur in the uh Bitcoin well the the crypto and DeFi spaces for quite some time now. What trends are you capitalizing now on? So you know I know you're a CEO of Ext. We'll talk about that. But let's say if you were to start from scratch, if you were to build another company, you know what what would you capitalize on? Yeah. So I just went through this exercise um after Wonderfy. I was you know I took some time off and was starting to explore what is next and couldn't help but go down the AI rabbit hole and got extremely excited about the the potential of AI. I think it's the most powerful tool that we are creating in the history of humanity and it's um it's it's really exciting. So that certainly is the area of focus. And um and for me, the further that I went down that rabbit hole, the more excited I got, but also the more terrified I got of realizing that we just have a handful of companies that are controlling this future. And it's it's it's it's really social media all over again where we have a you know we had a few companies with this extremely powerful network that um have control over it and are and and have used it in nefarious ways and now this is something that is far more powerful and everpresent than social media and again it's a few companies that control it. So the problem that I've chose to focus on is is AI and um and through researching this problem I came across Bit Tensor which is a decentralized AI network that um I think will solve the problem of of centralized AI. What exactly is decentralized AI? What does that mean? So Bitensor so Bitensor decentralized AI is what open AI was supposed to be. So the the original mission of OpenAI was um ensure that AGI benefits all of humanity. And what's happened is OpenAI pivoted from being a nonprofit that is focused on this mission to um being a for-profit centralized company and concentrating all this power within the organization. And so decentralized AI is really the goal is to build a future where AI is something that anyone can participate uh in and contribute to and it's not uh gatekept by um one or two or three organizations and um and ju just to kind of ground that a bit if you think about how um reliant people are on chat GPT now and the models are only getting better and better um well uh open AAI gets to decide what goes into those models, how how they're trained, how they make decisions, and then they can also cut off access to it, um, you know, to to you, to me, to certain countries, organizations, etc. And so that's, you know, that's a a huge huge problem. Again, it's I think it's social media all over again, but much uh, you know, much more powerful um, in in the sense of how um, you know, how powerful AI is as a as a tool. Okay. So how is bit tensor fundamentally different like functionally different? So if I'm using chat GBT the more I prompt it a certain way the more I'm training my chat GBT model to start behaving a certain way. So it's decentralized in that aspect. I I how so how is what you're talking about going to be different? So it's basically with Bit Tensor what you're doing is you are um so so I guess to to take a step back. Um, Bit Tensor is so I I would say Bitcoin has created the world's largest supercomputer by a huge factor. So, um, it's proven that decentralized networks and and compute can scale faster than anything that is centralized. And the Bitcoin computer really is solving math puzzles. And that's the that's the way that mining works on on on the Bitcoin network. And so Bit Tensor has taken that structure of Bitcoin, it's taken the same economics as Bitcoin and it's applying it to building this uh AI supercomputer and that is one that anyone can use and anyone can contribute to. So it doesn't have the censorship and bias issues that um chat GPT has for example. Um and the way that the network works is when you send so for example you there are um chat GPT style apps that are built on Bit Tensor and when you're using that instead of it uh going to a model that OpenAI has created which is siloed and nobody can you know see or understand what is happening um it's going to the Bit Tensor network and it's getting sent to um uh hundreds of different miners that are all contributing open- source um AI models to solve the problem in the most effective way and then the network is scoring the outputs and then and ranking them and the most effective uh the most high quality output is getting shared with with the with the user. So it's um that's the decentralized and open- source nature. And so um there's a lot of implications for that but really one is that anyone can contribute. So um with OpenAI you know you need to be working for that company to be able to um contribute to the model and with Bit Tensor anyone that um has that expertise can uh connect to the network u build a model train a model and uh and then get paid for doing that um through through the Bit Tensor network. So it's really created this um this massive supercomputer which is growing um really exponentially and uh and creating this open network that anyone can um contribute their expertise to and then can access the outputs uh from. Let's talk about how AI and blockchain have been integrated so far up to date. Are we seeing any integration so far uh between these two technologies? Yeah, I think there are uh several different crypto AI or blockchain AI uh projects and they're doing everything from inference to um data collection um to you know more consumerf facing um AI applications and so we we see a variety of different networks that are crypto networks that are doing that. Bit Tensor is really the um I would say the the most prominent and the only network that is um addressing all of those problems and so the the vision behind it was this really kind of interconnected network where all of these um AI problems are being solved and it's um you know each different subn network on Bit Tensor can access and share data um amongst itself. So it's you know kind of a you know a simple comparison would would be the internet. Um but I think that uh this is this is doing something um you know you know similar but um but really focused on AI and machine learning. But ultimately why do we care about the centralization of AI? I mean what's worst case scenario if we don't change anything right now? I mean the worst case scenario is that so I I think I think the likely scenario is that AI is the most powerful tool that that AI that humanity has ever created. So it's something that um has the ability you know fast forward 5 or 10 years it's going to be something that has the ability to um control and influence people in ways that we you know can't foresee yet. um you know there's scenarios where it you know replaces um a vast maj m majority of um of of working-class jobs and and you know white collar jobs etc. And so that to me that is something that should be owned and controlled by the you know by the populace not by um one or two companies because it certainly will be um used in nefarious ways if that is the case. And so I think the decentralized the decentralized aspect is so so important. Um it just goes back to why Bitcoin is important. Bitcoin is important because it is something that um has a fixed supply, can't be inflated, and isn't controlled by one country or one bank or one company. And that's why it continues to grow because people can know and trust that uh there there will never be more Bitcoin created and it's not going to ever get shut down. And so when you you take that structure and you apply it to AI um you know the same concept uh the same concept applies. This is this is something that um is you know is always going to be open and um and decentralized. anyone can contribute to it and access it and um and it's not going to get shut down and that you know that those are really kind of the core pieces of why decentralized AI is so important. Okay. So what is XTAW and how does this fit in? So XTAW is a public company that's solely focused on Bit Tensor. So we're the the first publicly traded company focused on this asset. um we hold a lot of Tao which is the uh the token of Bit Tensor and then we run validators on the network. So, you know, as as we've talked about, I think that Bit Tensor and decentralized AI really is the, you know, one of the most important things um going on right now. And so we're working to grow a bit tensor, make it more accessible to the investing public and um and really take on a micro strategy-esque approach of being able to tap into capital markets and uh raise more money, accumulate more tow and grow our validators and our infrastructure so that we can grow the decentralized AI network. Okay. uh how can you tell us more about how the token works and you know tell us about governance tell us about uh the structure tell us about um uh how many how many tokens are in circulation ownership so on and so forth yeah so structurally it's very similar to bitcoin so there's 21 million tokens that will ever be created and it follows a similar having uh having cycle to bitcoin so um you know the first bitcoin having was 2012 um We're pre first having for Bit Tensor. So the first having is supposed to be happening the sort of end of this year, start of like maybe January of of 2026. So that sort of gives you some context around where we're at in the evolution of um of Bit Tensor. But yeah, similar so very similar structure to Bitcoin. Um it was also fair launched in a similar way to Bitcoin. So I think the problem with a lot of crypto assets is that there are huge allocations for founders and for early investors and um it just sort of follows that um you know step-wise approach. Whereas Bit Tensor the network was launched anyone that has that holds the token uh either contributed work to the network by providing AI services or by validating AI services um or they bought the token um you know on the open market. And so I think that is a really critical point as well. It's why a lot of um you know people have come into the Bit Tensor ecosystem because you know aside from solving this massive problem it's also something that um you know is fair and philosophically aligned with Bitcoin. And that's really the structure and then there's um there's hundreds of subnets on Bit Tensor. each subnet is focused on a specific AI problem um whether it's data related or inference or um you know so on and so forth and so um you know all of those subnets are competing with each other and then miners on all of the subnets are competing to bring the best uh performance to uh you know to to the consumers that are that are utilizing those products. And it is um it's really just this open competition that is happening in in real time and the most um you know the most productive players are getting rewarded and the ones that aren't are getting kicked off the network. So it's created this creating this loop of um uh of developing these extremely high quality AI products uh through using Bitcoin style incentives but applying it to AI. Right. Um how many shares do uh the founders well not shares but how many of the remaining float does do the founders own of bit tensor so what I have heard is that the founders uh had uh around a 1% allocation of uh of I I can't confirm that but that's that's what I've heard which is drastically different than I think every single uh crypto project that I'm aware of other than bitcoin. Okay. And can you comment on whether or not uh Bitcoin and the broader crypto markets have had a impact on the price movement? Yeah, I would say that bitensor and tower are so early. Um and I don't think that there you know there hasn't been that much price movement in this cycle so far. Really the the network um had an upgrade in February called dynamic tow which is this really kind of critical upgrade. Um and I think that the network's still um you know kind of uh adopting and integrating that change. So I think in terms of sort of price action I we haven't really seen that but I think the way that I look at Bitensor is like I look at Bitcoin relative to the total supply of money and yeah my the number that I'm aware that you know I've calculated is it's around 2% of global money supply um the market cap of Bitcoin and so I think the parallel for Bit Tensor is you know Bitensor Bitcoin is is is this you know digital form of money um bit tensor is really focused around intelligence and that's the coordinating input for all economic activity and so in my views GDP is really the um you know it's the measurement of all human economic production and then AI we're seeing is able to mediate and optimize and generate production and so as AI grows that GDP is really going to be the only meaningful benchmark for something like bit tensor which is focused around this decentralized AI network. And so I think the the the addressable market for Bit Tensor is so is so huge. I I do think it's global GDP is is the is is the the relevant one. And we're, you know, at at such a small fraction of that. Bit Tensor is a $3.5 billion market cap uh currently. And just as a a comparison, OpenAI is valued at 300 billion. Um and so you know I think there's a there's a lot of room to grow and I you know my expectation is that Bit Tensor follows the likes of Bitcoin and you know gets to uh significant percentage of of its of its TAM in the next few years. Okay. I'm curious to see how the uh decentralization of AI is going to evolve in the future. Practically speaking what does that mean for users of AI? For users of AI it shouldn't make any difference. the the interface is the same just on a day-to-day basis the interface is the same. Um and you shouldn't really know like in my in my views as Bensor grows and um people are using it more they might not even necessarily know that they're using it. they're using um a front end that looks similar to for example chat GBT but it is using the Bit Tensor network and um and does not have all of the kind of privacy and um uh centralization concerns that um that that that OpenAI has and that's generally what what I see that looking like and it but it's just something you know something also that would allow users to have access uh regardless of whether you Chat GBT um or OpenAI is is uh deciding to give you an account for example. So you know similar similar to Bitcoin you know anyone can can buy and hold Bitcoin um but if you want to hold US dollars you you know you need to get onboard and approved by a bank. Let's uh let's end it here. Thank you very much. Um I I I I keep calling you Ben in my head. Uh it's Carad now. Congrats on your new venture. Where can we go to follow you and follow your uh your work and learn more from you? Yeah, you can check us out at xttow.co and that's probably the best place to uh to go from here. Okay, good. We'll put the link down below. So, make sure to follow XTOW and Kario's work there. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming on the show. Take care. Thanks, David. Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.
Humanity’s ‘Most Powerful Tool’ To Fuel Crypto’s Next Rally | Karia Samaroo
Summary
Transcript
I think it's the most powerful tool that we are creating in the history of humanity. The further that I went down that rabbit hole, the more excited I got, but also the more terrified I got of realizing that we just have a handful of companies that are controlling this future. And it's it's it's really social media all over again where we have a you know, we had a few companies with this extremely powerful network that um have control over it and are and have used it in nefarious ways. huge moves in the crypto space. Bitcoin's down 7% this week as of Wednesday afternoon ahead of Jackson Hole uh symposium. And we're looking at the altcoin spaces while Ethereum has had a huge run. What's next for stable coin adoption and what's next for the emerging of blockchain technology with AI. We'll be talking about all these themes with our next guest Caria Samuru, founder of Wonderfi, XCO and now CEO of Extal, the first publicly traded Bensor company. It's good to see you uh Kia. I've had you on my last show a couple years ago, so it's good to reconnect. You're now the CEO of a new company and you have a new name. So, new things for all of us. Great to be back. Great to see you again. Let's start by talking about Bitcoin and then I want to talk about Xtal. What is Betensor? What uh what is XTAL? Um and what does this mean for everybody interested in uh not just crypto but investing overall? Bitcoin just hit a record high above $124,000, but it's dropped 7% this week. um ahead of Fed Chair Pal's speech on Friday. Now, you've been very vocal about Bitcoin's recent rally. Let's break down some of these factors driving Bitcoin to new highs, and it's not just Bitcoin, by the way, bunch of other alts as well. Yeah, sure. So, I just think there's been so much that's happened this year really centered around clarity from the US and a lot of steps that have been taken um administration really following through on promises that were made around digital assets. And so we, you know, recently had crypto week several weeks ago where some of this legislation was kind of, you know, actually put forward and um and and taken to the next stage. And so I think it's just really we're seeing so much clarity after so many years of uncertainty around the regulation of crypto assets, uh, Bitcoin, stable coins, uh, etc. And then at the same time, we're seeing this wave of digital asset treasury companies that are bringing in crypto into the public markets in a more in a in a huge way. And uh so there's this kind of confluence of factors that has led to this huge rally this year. Uh let me just show you some charts of other things that have moved. Like I mentioned uh in my introduction, Ethereum had a huge move. This is the ETH chart. ETHUSD bit of a pullback since mid August. Now I again is this the same narrative here because Bitcoin's been moving ahead of Ethereum. In fact, Bitcoin's been leading Ethereum basically for most of the year until we've had this huge rally starting July. What happened here to ETH and the alt space? Yeah, I think that the alts are we're not in alt season yet. I think Bitcoin has definitely been leading the charge and you mentioned the the pullback that's happened. I think yeah 78% from the 124k high that was after the US inflation reports came back in higher than uh what was previously forecasted and so I think that you know that always has an impact on uh risk assets like like Bitcoin but I do think that the pullback is really being seen as more of a consolidation phase rather than us going into a reversal. So there's, you know, there's there's much more to come in this market, but with with with ETH and with different alts, I think that there's there's still a lot of um there's still a lot of room to grow in this cycle. And um yeah, I think we're we're just getting started right now. Well, what are some of the major themes that are going to be continuing to drive Bitcoin adoption and uh alt adoption throughout the rest of the year? Regulatory changes have already happened. They'll continue to happen, but most of that is now expected. What else is new? Yeah, on the Bitcoin side, the treasury companies, I I think just in general, we've seen tens of billions of dollars being raised by crypto treasury companies. Most of that is concentrated in Bitcoin because it is the leading asset. And for a lot of those companies, they have not necessarily executed their purchases of Bitcoin. So, it just comes back to supply and demand. And there is a fixed number of Bitcoin and we just keep seeing more and more demand coming in through the creation of these vehicles. And uh and that's just really the initial capital raises for these vehicles when they're when they're public. Their mandate is go out and tap capital markets, debt markets, uh bond markets, and buy more Bitcoin. And then because that's been so successful for Micro Strategy and it has been the best performing stock um you know in the last several years year after year other crypto assets are following suit ETH Salana and then other altcoins and and and using this strategy. So I do think that that's a a key piece aside from the regulatory side which you said um and kind of alluded to earlier which really just allows more institutions to play. they have a much higher degree of comfort with playing with these crypto assets and then you know retail will will follow. Does this not present more of a risk profile or a higher risk profile for Bitcoin considering that now a lot of bitcoins are going to be dominated by a few companies that are holding going to be the majority of bitcoins going forward? Doesn't that provide concentration risk to the market? I think there is some concentration risk there. it does seem like the there will be sort of a cap for most of the Bitcoin treasury companies in terms of how much uh how much Bitcoin they can actually buy. So I think there'll be sort of a natural cap for these as they as they get to to that size. Um it it definitely does concentrate things a little bit more. Um but I think in general it's positive because it just creates a better access point for um for investors that don't or can't hold crypto directly. So, you know, there's thousands and um you know, sorry, millions and millions of uh of shareholders that um that hold stock in these companies. So, while it is one company, they're you know, they have a very distributed shareholder base. And so, I see that as a as a positive. With these regulatory changes, what changes are we seeing from the consumer adoption side and particularly uh on ramping consumers or new users? Are um are exchanges now looking for new opportunities and perhaps exploring new ways to be competitive with on-ramping? Any changes there? Yeah, I think everybody's just trying to get more people into the crypto ecosystem. So, exchanges are uh looking at uh being able to bring in users through products that might be more traditionally on the Trady side or trying to blend those products. Um we're hearing the narrative of GameFi coming back up which was really prevalent in 2021 2022 and um we haven't seen much uh since then and now it's kind of you know sparking up again. I think Telegram through the Ton token and um Telegram games and apps uh that they're using is is is a huge on-ramp for uh retail or and just kind of consumer users into crypto. And I would say that's probably the um you know the the leading uh kind of on-ramp really right now. Um I think that that that's been really impressive to see you know a bill you know a billion users and they just kind of keep making crypto more accessible through through their app. Do you think Bitcoin is top for the year? That's a question I've been getting at pretty much every single dinner party have attended this summer. I would say no. I think there's room to grow for sure from here. Okay. based on based on what I think there's still more um you know I I keep going back to the to the to the treasury companies. I think there's a lot more um demand that is uh pent up and um I think just generally it it seems like there's a it's in a consolidation phase right now and um with some of the regulatory changes that have come I don't think we've necessarily seen all of the um uh you know all of the results of that yet in the market. This came in from the uh secretary of the treasury, Scott Patent. Stable coins represent a revolution in digital finance, he said. Published July 18th. The dollar now has an internet native payment rail that is fast, frictionless, and free of middlemen. This groundbreaking technology will buttress the dollar status as a global reserve currency, expand access to the dollar economy for billions across the globe, and lead to a surge in demand for US treasuries. Now, we're just wondering whether or not, first of all, do you agree with that statement? And second, if that is going to be true, I wonder if that provides a headwind to Bitcoin. Bitcoiners have long positioned themselves as one of the anti-dollar assets along with gold and other things. And so, if there's going to be more demand for uh dollars on the blockchain, in other words, stable coins, and more demand for treasuries, does that necessarily mean less demand for Bitcoin? I'll let you evaluate this. Yeah, I would say no. I think they're complimentary in the sense that Bitcoin will, you know, Bitcoin won't take over the global money supply and uh replace all money um all all fiat currency. I think it's it's something that will continue to grow and I think it's at sort of 2% of global money supply now. Um and and certainly is going to continue to grow, but I do see like I'm I'm a believer that, you know, both um both assets will continue to exist. And so that means that uh people that hold Bitcoin are still going to need to interact with the traditional financial system in some way. And that's why stable coins have grown so much in the last I mean four years or so. I think it's I think they're around $150 billion market cap now. And um we're you know don't quote me on it but I think sort of four you know 4 to5 billion in 2021 or or maybe it was yeah some something around there. So it's just just continues to grow and so I think it's really complimentary to the growth of Bitcoin and um and and other crypto assets. Well, you've been an entrepreneur in the uh Bitcoin well the the crypto and DeFi spaces for quite some time now. What trends are you capitalizing now on? So you know I know you're a CEO of Ext. We'll talk about that. But let's say if you were to start from scratch, if you were to build another company, you know what what would you capitalize on? Yeah. So I just went through this exercise um after Wonderfy. I was you know I took some time off and was starting to explore what is next and couldn't help but go down the AI rabbit hole and got extremely excited about the the potential of AI. I think it's the most powerful tool that we are creating in the history of humanity and it's um it's it's really exciting. So that certainly is the area of focus. And um and for me, the further that I went down that rabbit hole, the more excited I got, but also the more terrified I got of realizing that we just have a handful of companies that are controlling this future. And it's it's it's it's really social media all over again where we have a you know we had a few companies with this extremely powerful network that um have control over it and are and and have used it in nefarious ways and now this is something that is far more powerful and everpresent than social media and again it's a few companies that control it. So the problem that I've chose to focus on is is AI and um and through researching this problem I came across Bit Tensor which is a decentralized AI network that um I think will solve the problem of of centralized AI. What exactly is decentralized AI? What does that mean? So Bitensor so Bitensor decentralized AI is what open AI was supposed to be. So the the original mission of OpenAI was um ensure that AGI benefits all of humanity. And what's happened is OpenAI pivoted from being a nonprofit that is focused on this mission to um being a for-profit centralized company and concentrating all this power within the organization. And so decentralized AI is really the goal is to build a future where AI is something that anyone can participate uh in and contribute to and it's not uh gatekept by um one or two or three organizations and um and ju just to kind of ground that a bit if you think about how um reliant people are on chat GPT now and the models are only getting better and better um well uh open AAI gets to decide what goes into those models, how how they're trained, how they make decisions, and then they can also cut off access to it, um, you know, to to you, to me, to certain countries, organizations, etc. And so that's, you know, that's a a huge huge problem. Again, it's I think it's social media all over again, but much uh, you know, much more powerful um, in in the sense of how um, you know, how powerful AI is as a as a tool. Okay. So how is bit tensor fundamentally different like functionally different? So if I'm using chat GBT the more I prompt it a certain way the more I'm training my chat GBT model to start behaving a certain way. So it's decentralized in that aspect. I I how so how is what you're talking about going to be different? So it's basically with Bit Tensor what you're doing is you are um so so I guess to to take a step back. Um, Bit Tensor is so I I would say Bitcoin has created the world's largest supercomputer by a huge factor. So, um, it's proven that decentralized networks and and compute can scale faster than anything that is centralized. And the Bitcoin computer really is solving math puzzles. And that's the that's the way that mining works on on on the Bitcoin network. And so Bit Tensor has taken that structure of Bitcoin, it's taken the same economics as Bitcoin and it's applying it to building this uh AI supercomputer and that is one that anyone can use and anyone can contribute to. So it doesn't have the censorship and bias issues that um chat GPT has for example. Um and the way that the network works is when you send so for example you there are um chat GPT style apps that are built on Bit Tensor and when you're using that instead of it uh going to a model that OpenAI has created which is siloed and nobody can you know see or understand what is happening um it's going to the Bit Tensor network and it's getting sent to um uh hundreds of different miners that are all contributing open- source um AI models to solve the problem in the most effective way and then the network is scoring the outputs and then and ranking them and the most effective uh the most high quality output is getting shared with with the with the user. So it's um that's the decentralized and open- source nature. And so um there's a lot of implications for that but really one is that anyone can contribute. So um with OpenAI you know you need to be working for that company to be able to um contribute to the model and with Bit Tensor anyone that um has that expertise can uh connect to the network u build a model train a model and uh and then get paid for doing that um through through the Bit Tensor network. So it's really created this um this massive supercomputer which is growing um really exponentially and uh and creating this open network that anyone can um contribute their expertise to and then can access the outputs uh from. Let's talk about how AI and blockchain have been integrated so far up to date. Are we seeing any integration so far uh between these two technologies? Yeah, I think there are uh several different crypto AI or blockchain AI uh projects and they're doing everything from inference to um data collection um to you know more consumerf facing um AI applications and so we we see a variety of different networks that are crypto networks that are doing that. Bit Tensor is really the um I would say the the most prominent and the only network that is um addressing all of those problems and so the the vision behind it was this really kind of interconnected network where all of these um AI problems are being solved and it's um you know each different subn network on Bit Tensor can access and share data um amongst itself. So it's you know kind of a you know a simple comparison would would be the internet. Um but I think that uh this is this is doing something um you know you know similar but um but really focused on AI and machine learning. But ultimately why do we care about the centralization of AI? I mean what's worst case scenario if we don't change anything right now? I mean the worst case scenario is that so I I think I think the likely scenario is that AI is the most powerful tool that that AI that humanity has ever created. So it's something that um has the ability you know fast forward 5 or 10 years it's going to be something that has the ability to um control and influence people in ways that we you know can't foresee yet. um you know there's scenarios where it you know replaces um a vast maj m majority of um of of working-class jobs and and you know white collar jobs etc. And so that to me that is something that should be owned and controlled by the you know by the populace not by um one or two companies because it certainly will be um used in nefarious ways if that is the case. And so I think the decentralized the decentralized aspect is so so important. Um it just goes back to why Bitcoin is important. Bitcoin is important because it is something that um has a fixed supply, can't be inflated, and isn't controlled by one country or one bank or one company. And that's why it continues to grow because people can know and trust that uh there there will never be more Bitcoin created and it's not going to ever get shut down. And so when you you take that structure and you apply it to AI um you know the same concept uh the same concept applies. This is this is something that um is you know is always going to be open and um and decentralized. anyone can contribute to it and access it and um and it's not going to get shut down and that you know that those are really kind of the core pieces of why decentralized AI is so important. Okay. So what is XTAW and how does this fit in? So XTAW is a public company that's solely focused on Bit Tensor. So we're the the first publicly traded company focused on this asset. um we hold a lot of Tao which is the uh the token of Bit Tensor and then we run validators on the network. So, you know, as as we've talked about, I think that Bit Tensor and decentralized AI really is the, you know, one of the most important things um going on right now. And so we're working to grow a bit tensor, make it more accessible to the investing public and um and really take on a micro strategy-esque approach of being able to tap into capital markets and uh raise more money, accumulate more tow and grow our validators and our infrastructure so that we can grow the decentralized AI network. Okay. uh how can you tell us more about how the token works and you know tell us about governance tell us about uh the structure tell us about um uh how many how many tokens are in circulation ownership so on and so forth yeah so structurally it's very similar to bitcoin so there's 21 million tokens that will ever be created and it follows a similar having uh having cycle to bitcoin so um you know the first bitcoin having was 2012 um We're pre first having for Bit Tensor. So the first having is supposed to be happening the sort of end of this year, start of like maybe January of of 2026. So that sort of gives you some context around where we're at in the evolution of um of Bit Tensor. But yeah, similar so very similar structure to Bitcoin. Um it was also fair launched in a similar way to Bitcoin. So I think the problem with a lot of crypto assets is that there are huge allocations for founders and for early investors and um it just sort of follows that um you know step-wise approach. Whereas Bit Tensor the network was launched anyone that has that holds the token uh either contributed work to the network by providing AI services or by validating AI services um or they bought the token um you know on the open market. And so I think that is a really critical point as well. It's why a lot of um you know people have come into the Bit Tensor ecosystem because you know aside from solving this massive problem it's also something that um you know is fair and philosophically aligned with Bitcoin. And that's really the structure and then there's um there's hundreds of subnets on Bit Tensor. each subnet is focused on a specific AI problem um whether it's data related or inference or um you know so on and so forth and so um you know all of those subnets are competing with each other and then miners on all of the subnets are competing to bring the best uh performance to uh you know to to the consumers that are that are utilizing those products. And it is um it's really just this open competition that is happening in in real time and the most um you know the most productive players are getting rewarded and the ones that aren't are getting kicked off the network. So it's created this creating this loop of um uh of developing these extremely high quality AI products uh through using Bitcoin style incentives but applying it to AI. Right. Um how many shares do uh the founders well not shares but how many of the remaining float does do the founders own of bit tensor so what I have heard is that the founders uh had uh around a 1% allocation of uh of I I can't confirm that but that's that's what I've heard which is drastically different than I think every single uh crypto project that I'm aware of other than bitcoin. Okay. And can you comment on whether or not uh Bitcoin and the broader crypto markets have had a impact on the price movement? Yeah, I would say that bitensor and tower are so early. Um and I don't think that there you know there hasn't been that much price movement in this cycle so far. Really the the network um had an upgrade in February called dynamic tow which is this really kind of critical upgrade. Um and I think that the network's still um you know kind of uh adopting and integrating that change. So I think in terms of sort of price action I we haven't really seen that but I think the way that I look at Bitensor is like I look at Bitcoin relative to the total supply of money and yeah my the number that I'm aware that you know I've calculated is it's around 2% of global money supply um the market cap of Bitcoin and so I think the parallel for Bit Tensor is you know Bitensor Bitcoin is is is this you know digital form of money um bit tensor is really focused around intelligence and that's the coordinating input for all economic activity and so in my views GDP is really the um you know it's the measurement of all human economic production and then AI we're seeing is able to mediate and optimize and generate production and so as AI grows that GDP is really going to be the only meaningful benchmark for something like bit tensor which is focused around this decentralized AI network. And so I think the the the addressable market for Bit Tensor is so is so huge. I I do think it's global GDP is is the is is the the relevant one. And we're, you know, at at such a small fraction of that. Bit Tensor is a $3.5 billion market cap uh currently. And just as a a comparison, OpenAI is valued at 300 billion. Um and so you know I think there's a there's a lot of room to grow and I you know my expectation is that Bit Tensor follows the likes of Bitcoin and you know gets to uh significant percentage of of its of its TAM in the next few years. Okay. I'm curious to see how the uh decentralization of AI is going to evolve in the future. Practically speaking what does that mean for users of AI? For users of AI it shouldn't make any difference. the the interface is the same just on a day-to-day basis the interface is the same. Um and you shouldn't really know like in my in my views as Bensor grows and um people are using it more they might not even necessarily know that they're using it. they're using um a front end that looks similar to for example chat GBT but it is using the Bit Tensor network and um and does not have all of the kind of privacy and um uh centralization concerns that um that that that OpenAI has and that's generally what what I see that looking like and it but it's just something you know something also that would allow users to have access uh regardless of whether you Chat GBT um or OpenAI is is uh deciding to give you an account for example. So you know similar similar to Bitcoin you know anyone can can buy and hold Bitcoin um but if you want to hold US dollars you you know you need to get onboard and approved by a bank. Let's uh let's end it here. Thank you very much. Um I I I I keep calling you Ben in my head. Uh it's Carad now. Congrats on your new venture. Where can we go to follow you and follow your uh your work and learn more from you? Yeah, you can check us out at xttow.co and that's probably the best place to uh to go from here. Okay, good. We'll put the link down below. So, make sure to follow XTOW and Kario's work there. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming on the show. Take care. Thanks, David. Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.