System is Broken: Natalie Brunell on Why Hard Assets are the Only Answer to Fiscal Decay
Summary
Market Outlook: The podcast discusses the current U.S. government shutdown and its impact on labor data, highlighting a significant slowdown in job growth and its effects on market conditions.
Investment Themes: There is a strong emphasis on the flight to hard assets like gold and Bitcoin, with both reaching new highs amidst economic uncertainty and fiscal decay.
Regulatory Developments: Recent regulatory clarity, including IRS guidance on Bitcoin, is seen as a de-risking event that could encourage more companies to adopt Bitcoin as a strategic reserve asset.
Crypto Ecosystem: The podcast highlights significant developments in the crypto space, such as World Liberty Financial's plans for a debit card and tokenized commodities, indicating growing mainstream adoption.
Economic Concerns: The discussion points to worsening economic data, large fiscal deficits, and political gridlock as reasons for the growing interest in decentralized assets like Bitcoin and gold.
Strategic Reserves: There is speculation about countries potentially adding Bitcoin to their reserves, signaling a shift in how nation-states might view Bitcoin as a strategic asset similar to gold.
Future Outlook: The conversation suggests a gradual increase in Bitcoin adoption by corporations and possibly nation-states, driven by the need to protect purchasing power and hedge against economic instability.
Educational Efforts: Natalie Brunell's upcoming book aims to educate the public on Bitcoin's role as a solution to broken monetary systems, encouraging broader understanding and adoption.
Transcript
[Music] Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm Jeremy Saffron. The US government is officially shut down after Congress failed to pass a funding bill by midnight, furlowing hundreds of thousands of federal workers and delaying this week's jobs report. And when we did get labor data, well, it was quite ugly here. ADP revised August from plus 54,000 jobs to negative 3,000 with September at -32,000. Now, that drags the 3-month average down to just 23,000 jobs, basically flat, now matching the BLS's slowdown. The markets are moving fast in these conditions. Gold just surged past nearly $3,900, setting a new all-time record. And Bitcoin, it just jumped past 118,000, just below that right now, but still pushing crypto's market cap back towards $4 trillion. And we got two big crypto headlines that also broke. In Singapore, World Liberty Financial, co-founded by Donald Trump Jr., announced plans for a debit card and tokenized commodities. And in Washington, Treasuries and the IRS issued guidance easing tax fears for companies holding Bitcoin. A strategy, as you can imagine, it holds over more than 200,000 coins. And it said that it won't be subject to CM uh CMT on unrealized gains. Now, that means that the stock is obviously up on this news. Now, lots hit us. So to make this uh incredibly dense and fast-moving news day better, we're joined by a peer who sits at the center of all of these stories. Natalie Brunell is an Emmy award-winning investigative journalist, also host of Coin Stories podcast. You guys got to listen to that one. Natalie, good to see you. Thanks for coming on the show. >> Thanks so much for having me. Great to see you. >> Let's start with this whole, you know, this sheer volume of news today. I mean, we got the government in gridlock. We got this flight to gold and simultaneously major developments that appear to be de-risking and kind of expanding the crypto ecosystem. I mean, we're used to getting hit with news in the morning, people like you and I. And as a journalist covering this space like me, I mean, how do you begin connecting these narratives? I mean, what's the primary storytelling you right now in the crypto space? >> Well, there's just so much happening to your point. Um, we're excited that October seems to be here. we had some momentum moving Bitcoin in the direction we all want to see and um you mentioned some of the additional regulatory clarity and regulatory tailwinds that are coming behind us. We've seen we've really had a great year for Bitcoin. I mean Bitcoin's up about 100% since last year. I know we've had some volatility and some choppiness, but we really have to zoom out, especially with an asset like Bitcoin. U more and more companies are adding this asset to their balance sheets. We're nearing almost 200 public companies that are adopting Bitcoin as a strategic reserve. I think in the future we're going to see even our country maybe accumulate Bitcoin. Um but you also mentioned some of the macro headwinds that are happening. Economic data that seems to be worsening. Our fiscal deficits um remain very very large and as Lyn Alden says, nothing stops this train. Washington DC has a spending problem and we are so far in debt and we owe so much an interest expense. Um it really puts officials and and our political leaders in a in a very difficult spot, right? Because no one wants to cut entitlements. Um they're fighting back and forth. You know, whether it's you're on team red or team blue, it seems like every single year the the debt and deficits just get worse and the standard of living for the average person deteriorates. And so that's why hard assets are so important. And as you know, my favorite hard asset is Bitcoin. >> Yes, it is. And uh again, we still bridge the gap. I mean, of course, we cover Bitcoin. We also have a huge following in the gold space, but they're both doing really well today. I mean, under this pressure. I I want to put up a quote from from Jake Sherinsky. He's a lawyer in the space. And it was interesting. He tweeted this morning and he said, "Government shutdown. They can't even keep the doors open, but they want to control every aspect of our money supply. No thank you. This is why crypto and I I kind of bring it up because you know that sentiment this deep skepticism of centralized authority is is kind of a powerful bridge between many gold and bitcoin investors. I wonder is this shutdown the moment that that thesis breaks into the mainstream more you know forcing a much wider audience to seriously consider alternatives? >> Gosh, I hope so. But it feels like we have political gridlock at every corner. Um, I would hope that the government shutdown makes the average person start to wonder, you know, what what could I invest in that's maybe an alternative to this system and this central planning that has gotten us into so much debt and into into such a, you know, problem when it comes to just the um the the the fiscal the fiscal side of our budget which we can't keep, you know, get in order. Um, so I hope that people start looking at something like Bitcoin. Um, but gold has been outperforming Bitcoin this year. And I think that's because it is the um the traditional asset that represents something outside of state control, something that's outside of the system that can't be easily manipulated. Um, obviously gold has a little bit higher of an inflation rate than than Bitcoin. That's why I prefer Bitcoin and Bitcoin's made for sort of the digital economy. But gold's properties are basically um under a spotlight right now because of the irresponsibility of so many governments over the last few years. And we all know that they're going to have to keep printing. The deficits are going to only increase, especially if we hit a recession, which many people uh fear. and and there's sort of a disconnect from reality when you see stocks at an all-time high, yet the average person has a really difficult time affording groceries, affording a home. Um, and that's why I think we've we've pulled apart so dramatically in society where people don't even know where to turn for sort of uh political answers because they just want to be able to earn for their families, be able to afford um an average middle class life and and every single year it seems tougher and tougher unless you're investing in assets. >> Yeah, well said. Let's talk about market psychology too. I mean, you you talked about that phrase, you know, October in the crypto world. And again, according to that historic data from Coinless, the fourth quarter has always kind of been consistently bullish for Bitcoin. I'm curious, I mean, how much of Bitcoin's recent rally is is that seasonal optimism versus this genuine fundamental reaction to the clear and present dangers that we're seeing in Washington? >> Well, I always prefer looking at the fundamentals. And with Bitcoin, they're really stronger than ever. everything from the hash rate to um the number of users actually adopting it. And Bitcoin's solving problems in real time for the average person and for corporations. Um that's why they're adding to to their balance sheets in this asset because it is the one thing that no one can inflate, right? No one can destroy your purchasing power. It's so accreative to anyone that's running a company. Um but also individuals around the world. Alex Gladstein just put out a fantastic article about how Bitcoin stands as a tool for human rights and financial freedom globally. Um, and so I think everywhere people are looking for alternatives and I I think you know Bitcoin tends to shine in Q4 that that's great for all of us. Um, and we do need to recognize that in this this macro um, landscape that we have where some things are really unprecedented, um, you have to start considering something like Bitcoin to protect yourself, to protect your purchasing power when there are so many disconnects with the macro factors that are in play. >> Yeah, well said. And Natalie, I want to pivot to kind of the construction that's happening in the digital space, too, because it's a it's moving at a stunning pace. I mean, today at the token 24 2049 conference, I still have problems saying that because my head goes to 2025, but the token 2049 conference in Singapore, uh, World Liberty Financial, a firm that was co-founded by Donald Trump Jr., announced plans for a debit card for everyday spending and said that it's going to kind of try to develop this tokenized real world commodities like even oil and gas. Outside of that, I mean, when you see a name so deeply tied to the US political establishment, building this kind of real world infrastructure, does that signal to you that the trajectory of this technology isn't going anywhere? I mean, it's just going to start to mature even more. >> Yeah. I've said before on my show that I think we've reached an inflection point. We've crossed sort of the event horizon. Uh, Bitcoin is going to be increasingly adopted and by both sides of the political aisle. I mean, one of the fascinating things that Eric Trump has shared about his own family experience is getting debanked and needing to find alternatives like Bitcoin that protect you from essentially um the seizure or confiscation of your funds. And regardless of what your political beliefs are, I mean, if someone can just cut off your um your ability to earn money, your ability to access your money, we live in a a very scary world if that if that's the case, right? because it can be weaponized by both political parties. So, I think, you know, recognizing something like that, I know the trucker protest in Canada is also why Robert F. Kennedy Jr. embraced Bitcoin and saw it as a tool for financial freedom. Um, to see it go from there to now being more legitimized both a at a regulatory level, at a legislative level, um, at a corporate level. I think this is just the start of of a movement that will result in really everyone taking Bitcoin very very seriously and it being more and more embedded as a form of digital capital at the heart of our financial system right now. I mean, look at look around, right? I mean, when you put your money in the bank, a lot of people think, "Oh, it's it's sitting there safely, right? They're taking care of it for me." No, it's lent out. It's lent out in waves. Satoshi actually wrote about this in uh in in the white paper, the fractional reserve banking, they have only a little bit in reserves and the rest is these these credit bubbles that form and and that means that your purchasing power is really really destroyed. You need to find a way to protect your purchasing power. You can't always trust the banks. you can't always, you know, trust that they're looking out for you because we've seen in in all of the financial crises that we've experienced just in our lifetime, that they're always going to kick the can up. They're going to be bailed out by the government and the average person suffers. So, you have to protect your purchasing power. And that's why I believe Bitcoin is such an accessible and important tool for everyone to adopt because it protects you from this um this state apparatus that is tied in with the banks and that has really inflated our our purchasing power away over the past few decades. >> Yeah. I mean, we got that government, they can't stay open, those banks, they can kind of choose who they want, who they don't. Uh doesn't that combination make the case for this parallel system even stronger here? >> Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of people are worried that a recession is around the corner, that um, you know, the Treasury market could seize up. And what are they going to do if that happens? They're going to have to come in with liquidity. They're going to have to print more money. Our deficits are going to widen. And what does that do to your savings that's held at the bank? Well, your purchasing power is destroyed. I mean we have seen the we see numbers on the screen right about inflation but people see the numbers when they go to the store that you know meat is up 100% over the last few years that groceries are up that their gasoline is up that the cost to rent a place or to pay for insurance is up and so that's what translates to these feelings of I think frustration um and again people look for political answers but I think we need to look past the politics and look at the actual money that's really the the core mission within in Bitcoin is to fix the money because it's the money that's broken. The fact that it is centrally controlled, it is manipulated and we need something outside of that system that allows us to be able to save in something for the future and account for value in a way that actually reflects reality. Again, today it's like, you know, a stock is this price, but their earnings that there's a mismatch, right? Um, and so we see so many of these disconnects and I think so many people are craving for something that they can actually rely on. And for us in the Bitcoin community, Bitcoin has outperformed almost every other asset over the last few years. It has allowed us to sort of break out of this system and feel like we can save and plan for our futures in a meaningful way. >> I want to ask you about these strategic Bitcoin reserves, but not within the countries themselves. Let's start first with these corporations because we heard today from the IRS. They put out guidance on this, it's going to sound jargon, but I need to kind of explain it. This corporate alternative minimum tax. And for our audience, I mean, the tax was kind of a major uncertainty for any CFO. I mean, creating the risk that if their company bought Bitcoin and the price went up, they could face that massive tax bill on the unrealized gains. Now, you had Michael Sailor on your show for what you called a master class. I outside of that, I mean, how significant is this ruling? Is this kind of the regulatory de-risking event that could finally compel hundreds of other CFOs to move off the sidelines? >> Yeah. Well, so over the last few years, Bitcoin has gone from something where if you hold it as a company, you're almost punished. There's, you know, the Fazby accounting rules only recently changed. So, you couldn't mark uh Bitcoin to market. You you could only mark it when it goes down. I mean, these are the types of things changing. and um and the tax uh update that we just got. These are the types of things that are going to allow for companies to say, "I need to take this more seriously and look at it." Right now though, um a lot of corporate mandates actually prevent companies from being able being able to invest in Bitcoin. A lot of the mandates say that you have to invest in equities or um or treasuries. And so I think that it's going to take a little bit of time for those sort of bureaucratic wheels to change and to shift, but we are seeing it. Uh Vanguard just came out recently. They were one of the the the most staunch firms that were against any investors um holding Bitcoin and now they're starting to make a turnaround and I think they're going to allow customers to invest in Bitcoin ETFs pretty soon. That's a massive massive change and that's going to be so important and I think we're going to see more institutions lean in this direction. But it does it takes a while. Boards have to meet. Um there are certain you know um steps that have to be taken. They take time and and we will see sort of the institutional wave and adoption over the next few years that will usher in I mean I think billions and billions of dollars into this asset class. >> Yeah, I wonder how big I mean obviously I got to say the counterargument I mean it's always been that strategy model is kind of that high-risisk strategy because according to analysis you know its core business is been eclipsed by what it's essentially a leverage bet on a single asset. But this new tax ruling kind of changes the fundamental risk profile for even a more conservative company or or does it kind of stay niche in your thoughts? >> No, I think I think it will change um the game in the entire industry. I think Michael Sailor actually said it well himself over the past few days where um the ecosystem, the institutions, Wall Street, they're just needing to digest something that's very, very new. They're not familiar with digital capital. They're not familiar, a lot of them with Bitcoin. It's still very new. There's a lot of reluctance. There's a lot of hesitancy. People are still holding on to some of the negative narratives that have been in the space or some of the the issues we've seen with like crypto um you know, blowups in the past, but that doesn't represent what Bitcoin actually is. And to my last point, I mean, it just takes time. People need to take the time to understand this asset. need to take the time to understand how it fits in to a portfolio, the types of instruments they could issue on top of it. Sailor is years ahead of us, right? And and he's really been a pioneer in this in this um industry, and I think a lot of people will look look to him in a couple years and say, "Wow, was he right." >> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. I I got to ask you I mean for somebody that covers the space so closely I mean obviously we're a news organization and I haven't been able to confirm the story but it's a stories that's circulating heavily in Bitcoin circles and that is that the certain countries may be already quietly adding Bitcoin to their reserves. Central banks obviously we know are buying gold that's been confirmed but the chatter in the space is that some nations are testing that accumulation behind the scenes. As someone who speaks to insiders and guests every week, are you hearing those murmurings? I mean, if so, are we at the cusp of maybe seeing nation states treat Bitcoin the way that it treats gold as a strategic reserve asset? >> I'm definitely hearing the same, but I do think um it's going to be a slow and gradual process. Bitcoin still has such a small market cap. I mean, about $2 trillion. Gold is much much bigger and and central banks are sort of used to the rails um that were were in place for so long. And I think that to go that next next step and accumulate Bitcoin, which still is seen as so volatile, um I think it's going to take a little bit more time, but we are moving in the right direction. I really do applaud our policy makers like Senator Cynthia Lumis uh from Wyoming who put forth the Bitcoin Act and and I think it's important for countries that are highly indebted, including us in the United States, to look at this very very seriously. Um obviously we we are known to have a lot of gold, which I hope we have an audit of just to make sure. um and and maybe in the future we might see the government revalue that gold and mark it up to these market prices in order to be able to increase our asset side of the balance sheet. But I think it's important for them to also look at Bitcoin and I applaud the Trump administration for creating that strategic Bitcoin reserve with the uh Bitcoin that's already been seized by the government. I would like to see an accounting of that, an official audit of how much Bitcoin we hold and I would like to see a plan on how we can accumulate more Bitcoin. And I think it is going to be a strategic asset um as we move into a more multi-olar world. Right? That's where I think um a lot of people should pay a little bit more attention to what's happening geopolitically because we are in many ways dd dollararizing from treasuries being the primary uh reserve asset. We are moving into a world where central banks are increasingly holding gold. I think they're going to be holding maybe a basket of different FX reserves. And I do think that Bitcoin will become a part of that and it should. Um it is a uh scarce finite asset. No one can control it. No one can manipulate it. The purchasing power only grows. And I think again it's great for nation, states, companies and individuals. >> Yeah. Yeah. And as you mentioned, I mean even as we talk volatility, still the returns this year have been incredible. Uh when we talk about the guests on your show, Coin Stories, I mean you host MasterClass in the Bitcoin thesis with Lynn Alden, a friend of ours, Michael Sailor, obviously you've had even Peter Schiff on your show. In those conversations, are you finding, you know, the narrative is shifting? Is the idea of holding both Bitcoin and gold as complimentary assets against a failing system becoming more common ground? >> Well, a lot of my guests actually do hold both. Um, some of them were were previously very large gold bugs and they've divested of some of their gold holdings. They're now uh holding more Bitcoin like Lawrence Leard who wrote a great book, The Big Print. I highly recommend it. Um, it really just depends. But then you also have um the the greatest of all time, Michael Sailor, who's really um you know, put his money where his mouth is and he is Bitcoin only and allin on Bitcoin. His company now has more than 600,000 Bitcoin. I mean, that's just incredible. That's happened in the span of just 5 years. I remember when he first announced back in August 2020, and that was a big deal. And he held it on his balance sheet more defensively as the money printer was going burr. and now he's creating all these innovative credit instruments on top of Bitcoin. And I just find that to be fascinating. But then I have the folks like Peter Schiff who join me who don't want to buy Bitcoin. Um I personally think um some people who heard about Bitcoin when it was maybe 10 or $100. They It's a very difficult pill to swallow to say, you know, maybe I wasn't so right about this and now I have to buy uh at over six figures. But I do also want to remind people um you know, so many of my viewers say, "Oh, I think I'm too late. Bitcoin's over 100,000. I'm too late. Well, 10 years ago, you could have bought $5 worth of Bitcoin, and today you can buy $5 worth of Bitcoin. You can start small. I really think that this should be something that people add to just a just a savings habit. In the same way that we auto um deposit into a 401k or auto deposit into a savings account, you should have an auto deposit dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin. It will grow into a meaningful savings. Just, you know, zoom out. Don't touch it. Don't look at it. It's not something that you want to trade in and out of. I really highly recommend against something like that, especially with leverage. It's something that you save in for the future. Um, and uh, yeah, my guests have been so fascinating. I'm so grateful to hear from so many different perspectives, including some very, very brilliant macro voices. >> Let's talk about your new book that you got coming out in November. We are doing a little deep dive, Bitcoin is for Everyone. It kind of argues that broken money leaves ordinary people behind, as we've seen. I mean, we can even point to Argentina for that one. Uh, I guess today's events, right? The government shutdown, gold at record highs, Bitcoin strength. I mean, it all illustrates that thesis in real time. >> Yes. This book is written for everyone who's out there wondering, "Why do I feel like I'm working harder but bringing home less? Why am I not able to afford what previous generations could afford on lower salaries? Why is everyone pulling apart and fighting? Why has the world gotten to a place where less people, especially young people, feel hope? If you feel any of these things or you know someone who does, this is the book for you. It talks about why our system is broken. I connect the dots to our financial system and the way that money is issued and the way um that money can be manipulated essentially and how that destroys your purchasing power and why I believe Bitcoin is the best solution. So, I hope everyone checks it out. I really tried to write a very accessible 101 book um for everyone of all backgrounds. I mean I entered this space not having an MBA, not having a background in engineering or computer science. I really taught everything myself. And I hope that that serves as inspiration that anyone can do this. So many people look at Bitcoin and they think, "Oh, it's too technical. It's not for me. Again, I'm too late." You're wrong. You It's absolutely for you. you are early and you can learn this and embrace it. Um, I want people to feel empowered with this book because that's what a lot of people are feeling the opposite of. They're not feeling empowered. They're feeling like they're drowning or they're just treading water. And I want people to to feel like there's something that can can be fixed, something that can be better and something that will allow us to be a little bit more cooperative um as opposed to all the division that we see. And I do think so much of that division is rooted in economic issues. >> Yeah, well said. uh you know you and I we obviously interview people on the same side of this and I mean you talk to a lot of the same leading minds in this space when you hear from them now I mean with all these events converging what's the consensus in your circles I mean we talked to a lot of people but are they surprised by how rapidly this event has taken place I mean this acceleration that they've been predicting all along >> I I don't know I mean I feel like the Bitcoiners have been really harping on how this this solves so many of our problems s for a long time, but our institutions move very very slowly. And I think that we again need to step back and realize how far we actually have come. We have the president of the United States who has established a strategic Bitcoin reserve. We have an SEC chair and a CFTC chair who are both Bitcoiners. They're pro- Bitcoin. They want to see innovation happen. We have the administration talking about how self-custody needs to be protected, how that is a fundamental right. Um, I think that all the all the the winds are moving in the right direction and this is going to accelerate regardless of who comes into office at this point. Of course, there will always be naysayers. Of course, some institutions will move slower than others, but I think we are moving in a very very um we're moving in a clear direction, and that direction is Bitcoin will be on every balance sheet. Everyone's going to own Bitcoin in some way. Many people will own it passively. They don't even realize they're investing in Bitcoin. I mean, the S&P just accepted several companies. I think in the future they'll accept Strategy as well that are Bitcoin ccentric companies like Coinbase and Robin Hood facilitates Bitcoin trading. I mean, these are companies that as Bitcoin adoption grows, you're going to be essentially passively investing in this ecosystem without maybe even thinking about it. The ETFs have seen record inflows. They've beaten gold ETFs and um I think that they're catching up to some of the other popular ETFs that that we've seen exist over the last few decades. I mean, this is a space that is growing quickly and it's growing because, well, it's the best asset. It's the best engineered money and it protects your purchasing power. >> Yeah. Great. Uh, great macro overview of it that way. I mean, it's nice to hear. I mean, looking ahead, I'm curious out of all those things that you're talking about, all these most important developments that we're watching, what do you think in the next six to 12 months? I mean, is it going to be a move by another nation state, maybe a another major corporate acquisition or something else entirely? What What do you think for the audience they should be paying attention to? >> You know, I think it's just going to be gradual for now. I think we're going to see um headlines that are very bullish. Maybe another institution um that's embracing Bitcoin. Maybe a massive corporation that decides to uh put Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Nation states u making moves around around the world. I think it's just going to be gradual for now. Um and and I think a lot of people in the space are they want it to be more gradual as opposed to seeing some sort of massive crash or massive um crisis that that takes the market by hold and then people panic, right? And we don't want people embracing Bitcoin out of fear. We want people embracing Bitcoin because they're actually looking at it seriously as an alternative. Um and and they want to protect their purchasing power. They want to make plans for the future. And I think that um you know the the biggest thing we need is more education because I still talk to people. I mean I I went to an event the other night and there were a ton of Tradfi folks there and they work at massive firms, the Mel Lynches, the Bank of Americas and they said no I mean we can't invest in Bitcoin even if we wanted to. The company doesn't allow us to invest in Bitcoin. So, there's still, you know, some wheels that need to move in a certain direction, and I think they will, but it'll be maybe a little bit slower than some Bitcoiners hope for. >> Yeah, it sure feels like there's tailwinds, though. Not as many headwinds. All right, Natalie Bernell, host of Coin Stories podcast. A crucial and clarifying conversation on this uh crazy news day. Thanks for this. I appreciate your time. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Natalie. And you can find Natalie's show, Coin Stories, on YouTube and of course all major podcast platforms. And before I let you go, Natalie, talk to me about this book in November, too. I mean, uh, it's out on Amazon. >> Yes, you can pre-order it now on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you get your books. And it officially publishes on November 18th. I'll be in New York City to do several events. I'm really excited again because it's a very accessible 101 book. If you're into Bitcoin, give it to your friends. I hope you order a copy. But if you're you're sitting on the sidelines wondering, "What is this thing? Is it for me?" This is the book for you. >> All right. I appreciate it. Thank you for that. Uh, thanks for your time. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Okay, if you got value from this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe on Kiko News right here on YouTube for Kiko News. I'm Jeremy Saffford for all of us. We'll see you next time. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]
System is Broken: Natalie Brunell on Why Hard Assets are the Only Answer to Fiscal Decay
Summary
Transcript
[Music] Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm Jeremy Saffron. The US government is officially shut down after Congress failed to pass a funding bill by midnight, furlowing hundreds of thousands of federal workers and delaying this week's jobs report. And when we did get labor data, well, it was quite ugly here. ADP revised August from plus 54,000 jobs to negative 3,000 with September at -32,000. Now, that drags the 3-month average down to just 23,000 jobs, basically flat, now matching the BLS's slowdown. The markets are moving fast in these conditions. Gold just surged past nearly $3,900, setting a new all-time record. And Bitcoin, it just jumped past 118,000, just below that right now, but still pushing crypto's market cap back towards $4 trillion. And we got two big crypto headlines that also broke. In Singapore, World Liberty Financial, co-founded by Donald Trump Jr., announced plans for a debit card and tokenized commodities. And in Washington, Treasuries and the IRS issued guidance easing tax fears for companies holding Bitcoin. A strategy, as you can imagine, it holds over more than 200,000 coins. And it said that it won't be subject to CM uh CMT on unrealized gains. Now, that means that the stock is obviously up on this news. Now, lots hit us. So to make this uh incredibly dense and fast-moving news day better, we're joined by a peer who sits at the center of all of these stories. Natalie Brunell is an Emmy award-winning investigative journalist, also host of Coin Stories podcast. You guys got to listen to that one. Natalie, good to see you. Thanks for coming on the show. >> Thanks so much for having me. Great to see you. >> Let's start with this whole, you know, this sheer volume of news today. I mean, we got the government in gridlock. We got this flight to gold and simultaneously major developments that appear to be de-risking and kind of expanding the crypto ecosystem. I mean, we're used to getting hit with news in the morning, people like you and I. And as a journalist covering this space like me, I mean, how do you begin connecting these narratives? I mean, what's the primary storytelling you right now in the crypto space? >> Well, there's just so much happening to your point. Um, we're excited that October seems to be here. we had some momentum moving Bitcoin in the direction we all want to see and um you mentioned some of the additional regulatory clarity and regulatory tailwinds that are coming behind us. We've seen we've really had a great year for Bitcoin. I mean Bitcoin's up about 100% since last year. I know we've had some volatility and some choppiness, but we really have to zoom out, especially with an asset like Bitcoin. U more and more companies are adding this asset to their balance sheets. We're nearing almost 200 public companies that are adopting Bitcoin as a strategic reserve. I think in the future we're going to see even our country maybe accumulate Bitcoin. Um but you also mentioned some of the macro headwinds that are happening. Economic data that seems to be worsening. Our fiscal deficits um remain very very large and as Lyn Alden says, nothing stops this train. Washington DC has a spending problem and we are so far in debt and we owe so much an interest expense. Um it really puts officials and and our political leaders in a in a very difficult spot, right? Because no one wants to cut entitlements. Um they're fighting back and forth. You know, whether it's you're on team red or team blue, it seems like every single year the the debt and deficits just get worse and the standard of living for the average person deteriorates. And so that's why hard assets are so important. And as you know, my favorite hard asset is Bitcoin. >> Yes, it is. And uh again, we still bridge the gap. I mean, of course, we cover Bitcoin. We also have a huge following in the gold space, but they're both doing really well today. I mean, under this pressure. I I want to put up a quote from from Jake Sherinsky. He's a lawyer in the space. And it was interesting. He tweeted this morning and he said, "Government shutdown. They can't even keep the doors open, but they want to control every aspect of our money supply. No thank you. This is why crypto and I I kind of bring it up because you know that sentiment this deep skepticism of centralized authority is is kind of a powerful bridge between many gold and bitcoin investors. I wonder is this shutdown the moment that that thesis breaks into the mainstream more you know forcing a much wider audience to seriously consider alternatives? >> Gosh, I hope so. But it feels like we have political gridlock at every corner. Um, I would hope that the government shutdown makes the average person start to wonder, you know, what what could I invest in that's maybe an alternative to this system and this central planning that has gotten us into so much debt and into into such a, you know, problem when it comes to just the um the the the fiscal the fiscal side of our budget which we can't keep, you know, get in order. Um, so I hope that people start looking at something like Bitcoin. Um, but gold has been outperforming Bitcoin this year. And I think that's because it is the um the traditional asset that represents something outside of state control, something that's outside of the system that can't be easily manipulated. Um, obviously gold has a little bit higher of an inflation rate than than Bitcoin. That's why I prefer Bitcoin and Bitcoin's made for sort of the digital economy. But gold's properties are basically um under a spotlight right now because of the irresponsibility of so many governments over the last few years. And we all know that they're going to have to keep printing. The deficits are going to only increase, especially if we hit a recession, which many people uh fear. and and there's sort of a disconnect from reality when you see stocks at an all-time high, yet the average person has a really difficult time affording groceries, affording a home. Um, and that's why I think we've we've pulled apart so dramatically in society where people don't even know where to turn for sort of uh political answers because they just want to be able to earn for their families, be able to afford um an average middle class life and and every single year it seems tougher and tougher unless you're investing in assets. >> Yeah, well said. Let's talk about market psychology too. I mean, you you talked about that phrase, you know, October in the crypto world. And again, according to that historic data from Coinless, the fourth quarter has always kind of been consistently bullish for Bitcoin. I'm curious, I mean, how much of Bitcoin's recent rally is is that seasonal optimism versus this genuine fundamental reaction to the clear and present dangers that we're seeing in Washington? >> Well, I always prefer looking at the fundamentals. And with Bitcoin, they're really stronger than ever. everything from the hash rate to um the number of users actually adopting it. And Bitcoin's solving problems in real time for the average person and for corporations. Um that's why they're adding to to their balance sheets in this asset because it is the one thing that no one can inflate, right? No one can destroy your purchasing power. It's so accreative to anyone that's running a company. Um but also individuals around the world. Alex Gladstein just put out a fantastic article about how Bitcoin stands as a tool for human rights and financial freedom globally. Um, and so I think everywhere people are looking for alternatives and I I think you know Bitcoin tends to shine in Q4 that that's great for all of us. Um, and we do need to recognize that in this this macro um, landscape that we have where some things are really unprecedented, um, you have to start considering something like Bitcoin to protect yourself, to protect your purchasing power when there are so many disconnects with the macro factors that are in play. >> Yeah, well said. And Natalie, I want to pivot to kind of the construction that's happening in the digital space, too, because it's a it's moving at a stunning pace. I mean, today at the token 24 2049 conference, I still have problems saying that because my head goes to 2025, but the token 2049 conference in Singapore, uh, World Liberty Financial, a firm that was co-founded by Donald Trump Jr., announced plans for a debit card for everyday spending and said that it's going to kind of try to develop this tokenized real world commodities like even oil and gas. Outside of that, I mean, when you see a name so deeply tied to the US political establishment, building this kind of real world infrastructure, does that signal to you that the trajectory of this technology isn't going anywhere? I mean, it's just going to start to mature even more. >> Yeah. I've said before on my show that I think we've reached an inflection point. We've crossed sort of the event horizon. Uh, Bitcoin is going to be increasingly adopted and by both sides of the political aisle. I mean, one of the fascinating things that Eric Trump has shared about his own family experience is getting debanked and needing to find alternatives like Bitcoin that protect you from essentially um the seizure or confiscation of your funds. And regardless of what your political beliefs are, I mean, if someone can just cut off your um your ability to earn money, your ability to access your money, we live in a a very scary world if that if that's the case, right? because it can be weaponized by both political parties. So, I think, you know, recognizing something like that, I know the trucker protest in Canada is also why Robert F. Kennedy Jr. embraced Bitcoin and saw it as a tool for financial freedom. Um, to see it go from there to now being more legitimized both a at a regulatory level, at a legislative level, um, at a corporate level. I think this is just the start of of a movement that will result in really everyone taking Bitcoin very very seriously and it being more and more embedded as a form of digital capital at the heart of our financial system right now. I mean, look at look around, right? I mean, when you put your money in the bank, a lot of people think, "Oh, it's it's sitting there safely, right? They're taking care of it for me." No, it's lent out. It's lent out in waves. Satoshi actually wrote about this in uh in in the white paper, the fractional reserve banking, they have only a little bit in reserves and the rest is these these credit bubbles that form and and that means that your purchasing power is really really destroyed. You need to find a way to protect your purchasing power. You can't always trust the banks. you can't always, you know, trust that they're looking out for you because we've seen in in all of the financial crises that we've experienced just in our lifetime, that they're always going to kick the can up. They're going to be bailed out by the government and the average person suffers. So, you have to protect your purchasing power. And that's why I believe Bitcoin is such an accessible and important tool for everyone to adopt because it protects you from this um this state apparatus that is tied in with the banks and that has really inflated our our purchasing power away over the past few decades. >> Yeah. I mean, we got that government, they can't stay open, those banks, they can kind of choose who they want, who they don't. Uh doesn't that combination make the case for this parallel system even stronger here? >> Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of people are worried that a recession is around the corner, that um, you know, the Treasury market could seize up. And what are they going to do if that happens? They're going to have to come in with liquidity. They're going to have to print more money. Our deficits are going to widen. And what does that do to your savings that's held at the bank? Well, your purchasing power is destroyed. I mean we have seen the we see numbers on the screen right about inflation but people see the numbers when they go to the store that you know meat is up 100% over the last few years that groceries are up that their gasoline is up that the cost to rent a place or to pay for insurance is up and so that's what translates to these feelings of I think frustration um and again people look for political answers but I think we need to look past the politics and look at the actual money that's really the the core mission within in Bitcoin is to fix the money because it's the money that's broken. The fact that it is centrally controlled, it is manipulated and we need something outside of that system that allows us to be able to save in something for the future and account for value in a way that actually reflects reality. Again, today it's like, you know, a stock is this price, but their earnings that there's a mismatch, right? Um, and so we see so many of these disconnects and I think so many people are craving for something that they can actually rely on. And for us in the Bitcoin community, Bitcoin has outperformed almost every other asset over the last few years. It has allowed us to sort of break out of this system and feel like we can save and plan for our futures in a meaningful way. >> I want to ask you about these strategic Bitcoin reserves, but not within the countries themselves. Let's start first with these corporations because we heard today from the IRS. They put out guidance on this, it's going to sound jargon, but I need to kind of explain it. This corporate alternative minimum tax. And for our audience, I mean, the tax was kind of a major uncertainty for any CFO. I mean, creating the risk that if their company bought Bitcoin and the price went up, they could face that massive tax bill on the unrealized gains. Now, you had Michael Sailor on your show for what you called a master class. I outside of that, I mean, how significant is this ruling? Is this kind of the regulatory de-risking event that could finally compel hundreds of other CFOs to move off the sidelines? >> Yeah. Well, so over the last few years, Bitcoin has gone from something where if you hold it as a company, you're almost punished. There's, you know, the Fazby accounting rules only recently changed. So, you couldn't mark uh Bitcoin to market. You you could only mark it when it goes down. I mean, these are the types of things changing. and um and the tax uh update that we just got. These are the types of things that are going to allow for companies to say, "I need to take this more seriously and look at it." Right now though, um a lot of corporate mandates actually prevent companies from being able being able to invest in Bitcoin. A lot of the mandates say that you have to invest in equities or um or treasuries. And so I think that it's going to take a little bit of time for those sort of bureaucratic wheels to change and to shift, but we are seeing it. Uh Vanguard just came out recently. They were one of the the the most staunch firms that were against any investors um holding Bitcoin and now they're starting to make a turnaround and I think they're going to allow customers to invest in Bitcoin ETFs pretty soon. That's a massive massive change and that's going to be so important and I think we're going to see more institutions lean in this direction. But it does it takes a while. Boards have to meet. Um there are certain you know um steps that have to be taken. They take time and and we will see sort of the institutional wave and adoption over the next few years that will usher in I mean I think billions and billions of dollars into this asset class. >> Yeah, I wonder how big I mean obviously I got to say the counterargument I mean it's always been that strategy model is kind of that high-risisk strategy because according to analysis you know its core business is been eclipsed by what it's essentially a leverage bet on a single asset. But this new tax ruling kind of changes the fundamental risk profile for even a more conservative company or or does it kind of stay niche in your thoughts? >> No, I think I think it will change um the game in the entire industry. I think Michael Sailor actually said it well himself over the past few days where um the ecosystem, the institutions, Wall Street, they're just needing to digest something that's very, very new. They're not familiar with digital capital. They're not familiar, a lot of them with Bitcoin. It's still very new. There's a lot of reluctance. There's a lot of hesitancy. People are still holding on to some of the negative narratives that have been in the space or some of the the issues we've seen with like crypto um you know, blowups in the past, but that doesn't represent what Bitcoin actually is. And to my last point, I mean, it just takes time. People need to take the time to understand this asset. need to take the time to understand how it fits in to a portfolio, the types of instruments they could issue on top of it. Sailor is years ahead of us, right? And and he's really been a pioneer in this in this um industry, and I think a lot of people will look look to him in a couple years and say, "Wow, was he right." >> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. I I got to ask you I mean for somebody that covers the space so closely I mean obviously we're a news organization and I haven't been able to confirm the story but it's a stories that's circulating heavily in Bitcoin circles and that is that the certain countries may be already quietly adding Bitcoin to their reserves. Central banks obviously we know are buying gold that's been confirmed but the chatter in the space is that some nations are testing that accumulation behind the scenes. As someone who speaks to insiders and guests every week, are you hearing those murmurings? I mean, if so, are we at the cusp of maybe seeing nation states treat Bitcoin the way that it treats gold as a strategic reserve asset? >> I'm definitely hearing the same, but I do think um it's going to be a slow and gradual process. Bitcoin still has such a small market cap. I mean, about $2 trillion. Gold is much much bigger and and central banks are sort of used to the rails um that were were in place for so long. And I think that to go that next next step and accumulate Bitcoin, which still is seen as so volatile, um I think it's going to take a little bit more time, but we are moving in the right direction. I really do applaud our policy makers like Senator Cynthia Lumis uh from Wyoming who put forth the Bitcoin Act and and I think it's important for countries that are highly indebted, including us in the United States, to look at this very very seriously. Um obviously we we are known to have a lot of gold, which I hope we have an audit of just to make sure. um and and maybe in the future we might see the government revalue that gold and mark it up to these market prices in order to be able to increase our asset side of the balance sheet. But I think it's important for them to also look at Bitcoin and I applaud the Trump administration for creating that strategic Bitcoin reserve with the uh Bitcoin that's already been seized by the government. I would like to see an accounting of that, an official audit of how much Bitcoin we hold and I would like to see a plan on how we can accumulate more Bitcoin. And I think it is going to be a strategic asset um as we move into a more multi-olar world. Right? That's where I think um a lot of people should pay a little bit more attention to what's happening geopolitically because we are in many ways dd dollararizing from treasuries being the primary uh reserve asset. We are moving into a world where central banks are increasingly holding gold. I think they're going to be holding maybe a basket of different FX reserves. And I do think that Bitcoin will become a part of that and it should. Um it is a uh scarce finite asset. No one can control it. No one can manipulate it. The purchasing power only grows. And I think again it's great for nation, states, companies and individuals. >> Yeah. Yeah. And as you mentioned, I mean even as we talk volatility, still the returns this year have been incredible. Uh when we talk about the guests on your show, Coin Stories, I mean you host MasterClass in the Bitcoin thesis with Lynn Alden, a friend of ours, Michael Sailor, obviously you've had even Peter Schiff on your show. In those conversations, are you finding, you know, the narrative is shifting? Is the idea of holding both Bitcoin and gold as complimentary assets against a failing system becoming more common ground? >> Well, a lot of my guests actually do hold both. Um, some of them were were previously very large gold bugs and they've divested of some of their gold holdings. They're now uh holding more Bitcoin like Lawrence Leard who wrote a great book, The Big Print. I highly recommend it. Um, it really just depends. But then you also have um the the greatest of all time, Michael Sailor, who's really um you know, put his money where his mouth is and he is Bitcoin only and allin on Bitcoin. His company now has more than 600,000 Bitcoin. I mean, that's just incredible. That's happened in the span of just 5 years. I remember when he first announced back in August 2020, and that was a big deal. And he held it on his balance sheet more defensively as the money printer was going burr. and now he's creating all these innovative credit instruments on top of Bitcoin. And I just find that to be fascinating. But then I have the folks like Peter Schiff who join me who don't want to buy Bitcoin. Um I personally think um some people who heard about Bitcoin when it was maybe 10 or $100. They It's a very difficult pill to swallow to say, you know, maybe I wasn't so right about this and now I have to buy uh at over six figures. But I do also want to remind people um you know, so many of my viewers say, "Oh, I think I'm too late. Bitcoin's over 100,000. I'm too late. Well, 10 years ago, you could have bought $5 worth of Bitcoin, and today you can buy $5 worth of Bitcoin. You can start small. I really think that this should be something that people add to just a just a savings habit. In the same way that we auto um deposit into a 401k or auto deposit into a savings account, you should have an auto deposit dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin. It will grow into a meaningful savings. Just, you know, zoom out. Don't touch it. Don't look at it. It's not something that you want to trade in and out of. I really highly recommend against something like that, especially with leverage. It's something that you save in for the future. Um, and uh, yeah, my guests have been so fascinating. I'm so grateful to hear from so many different perspectives, including some very, very brilliant macro voices. >> Let's talk about your new book that you got coming out in November. We are doing a little deep dive, Bitcoin is for Everyone. It kind of argues that broken money leaves ordinary people behind, as we've seen. I mean, we can even point to Argentina for that one. Uh, I guess today's events, right? The government shutdown, gold at record highs, Bitcoin strength. I mean, it all illustrates that thesis in real time. >> Yes. This book is written for everyone who's out there wondering, "Why do I feel like I'm working harder but bringing home less? Why am I not able to afford what previous generations could afford on lower salaries? Why is everyone pulling apart and fighting? Why has the world gotten to a place where less people, especially young people, feel hope? If you feel any of these things or you know someone who does, this is the book for you. It talks about why our system is broken. I connect the dots to our financial system and the way that money is issued and the way um that money can be manipulated essentially and how that destroys your purchasing power and why I believe Bitcoin is the best solution. So, I hope everyone checks it out. I really tried to write a very accessible 101 book um for everyone of all backgrounds. I mean I entered this space not having an MBA, not having a background in engineering or computer science. I really taught everything myself. And I hope that that serves as inspiration that anyone can do this. So many people look at Bitcoin and they think, "Oh, it's too technical. It's not for me. Again, I'm too late." You're wrong. You It's absolutely for you. you are early and you can learn this and embrace it. Um, I want people to feel empowered with this book because that's what a lot of people are feeling the opposite of. They're not feeling empowered. They're feeling like they're drowning or they're just treading water. And I want people to to feel like there's something that can can be fixed, something that can be better and something that will allow us to be a little bit more cooperative um as opposed to all the division that we see. And I do think so much of that division is rooted in economic issues. >> Yeah, well said. uh you know you and I we obviously interview people on the same side of this and I mean you talk to a lot of the same leading minds in this space when you hear from them now I mean with all these events converging what's the consensus in your circles I mean we talked to a lot of people but are they surprised by how rapidly this event has taken place I mean this acceleration that they've been predicting all along >> I I don't know I mean I feel like the Bitcoiners have been really harping on how this this solves so many of our problems s for a long time, but our institutions move very very slowly. And I think that we again need to step back and realize how far we actually have come. We have the president of the United States who has established a strategic Bitcoin reserve. We have an SEC chair and a CFTC chair who are both Bitcoiners. They're pro- Bitcoin. They want to see innovation happen. We have the administration talking about how self-custody needs to be protected, how that is a fundamental right. Um, I think that all the all the the winds are moving in the right direction and this is going to accelerate regardless of who comes into office at this point. Of course, there will always be naysayers. Of course, some institutions will move slower than others, but I think we are moving in a very very um we're moving in a clear direction, and that direction is Bitcoin will be on every balance sheet. Everyone's going to own Bitcoin in some way. Many people will own it passively. They don't even realize they're investing in Bitcoin. I mean, the S&P just accepted several companies. I think in the future they'll accept Strategy as well that are Bitcoin ccentric companies like Coinbase and Robin Hood facilitates Bitcoin trading. I mean, these are companies that as Bitcoin adoption grows, you're going to be essentially passively investing in this ecosystem without maybe even thinking about it. The ETFs have seen record inflows. They've beaten gold ETFs and um I think that they're catching up to some of the other popular ETFs that that we've seen exist over the last few decades. I mean, this is a space that is growing quickly and it's growing because, well, it's the best asset. It's the best engineered money and it protects your purchasing power. >> Yeah. Great. Uh, great macro overview of it that way. I mean, it's nice to hear. I mean, looking ahead, I'm curious out of all those things that you're talking about, all these most important developments that we're watching, what do you think in the next six to 12 months? I mean, is it going to be a move by another nation state, maybe a another major corporate acquisition or something else entirely? What What do you think for the audience they should be paying attention to? >> You know, I think it's just going to be gradual for now. I think we're going to see um headlines that are very bullish. Maybe another institution um that's embracing Bitcoin. Maybe a massive corporation that decides to uh put Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Nation states u making moves around around the world. I think it's just going to be gradual for now. Um and and I think a lot of people in the space are they want it to be more gradual as opposed to seeing some sort of massive crash or massive um crisis that that takes the market by hold and then people panic, right? And we don't want people embracing Bitcoin out of fear. We want people embracing Bitcoin because they're actually looking at it seriously as an alternative. Um and and they want to protect their purchasing power. They want to make plans for the future. And I think that um you know the the biggest thing we need is more education because I still talk to people. I mean I I went to an event the other night and there were a ton of Tradfi folks there and they work at massive firms, the Mel Lynches, the Bank of Americas and they said no I mean we can't invest in Bitcoin even if we wanted to. The company doesn't allow us to invest in Bitcoin. So, there's still, you know, some wheels that need to move in a certain direction, and I think they will, but it'll be maybe a little bit slower than some Bitcoiners hope for. >> Yeah, it sure feels like there's tailwinds, though. Not as many headwinds. All right, Natalie Bernell, host of Coin Stories podcast. A crucial and clarifying conversation on this uh crazy news day. Thanks for this. I appreciate your time. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Natalie. And you can find Natalie's show, Coin Stories, on YouTube and of course all major podcast platforms. And before I let you go, Natalie, talk to me about this book in November, too. I mean, uh, it's out on Amazon. >> Yes, you can pre-order it now on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you get your books. And it officially publishes on November 18th. I'll be in New York City to do several events. I'm really excited again because it's a very accessible 101 book. If you're into Bitcoin, give it to your friends. I hope you order a copy. But if you're you're sitting on the sidelines wondering, "What is this thing? Is it for me?" This is the book for you. >> All right. I appreciate it. Thank you for that. Uh, thanks for your time. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Okay, if you got value from this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe on Kiko News right here on YouTube for Kiko News. I'm Jeremy Saffford for all of us. We'll see you next time. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]