Stefan Gleason: What Drives Gold's Next Move Higher, "Huge" Silver Buy Signal
Summary
Gold Market Insight: Stefan Gleason highlights that the current gold cycle is still in its early stages, with significant potential for growth driven by central bank purchases and strong demand from Asia.
Western Investor Participation: The lack of Western investor participation in gold is attributed to the strong performance of paper assets like stocks and crypto, but a shift could occur if these markets decline.
Gold Pricing and Buying Strategy: Gleason advises purchasing physical gold at lower premiums, such as 1 oz bars or American Eagle coins, due to reduced retail demand and increased secondary market inventory.
Silver Market Dynamics: Silver is seen as playing catch-up to gold, with potential for significant price increases if it breaks key resistance levels, making it an attractive buy for those with a higher risk appetite.
Platinum and Diversification: While platinum is gaining interest, it remains a small part of the precious metals market, with its economic sensitivity making it a diversifier rather than a core holding.
Royalty and Streaming Sector: Tether's investment in a gold mining royalty company signals growing interest in the sector, which offers a stable way to gain exposure to gold without the risks associated with mining stocks.
Sound Money Policy Initiatives: There is momentum in the US for sound money policies, such as removing taxes on precious metals transactions and encouraging state-level gold reserves, which could enhance gold's role as a monetary asset.
Market Outlook: Gleason emphasizes that the precious metals market is still largely undiscovered by the general public, suggesting significant growth potential as more investors recognize the benefits of owning gold and silver.
Transcript
[Music] I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Stephan Gleason, CEO of Money Metals. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. >> Great to be back, Charlotte. Thank you. >> Really good to be catching up with you. It's been a year since our last conversation, so we have so much to go through. And where I thought we could begin is, of course, with gold. So price has been on an impressive run, although right now we're in a little bit of a a summer slowdown or cool down. I wanted to ask if you can set the stage by talking about where you see gold in the current cycle. >> Well, I think we're still very early in in what will will be a very exciting long-term bull run uh in gold. And you know the last 2 to 3 years has really been kind of a a a sleeper period. Um at least in terms of western demand for gold and silver. We just haven't seen much. Um in fact we at least on the retail side you know as money metals is one of the largest online precious metals dealers in America. We're we saw more demand on the retail side during co which was before gold and silver really started taking off uh and broke above 200 like it did about 2 years ago. But since then, since that breakout, we've actually seen very little participation from the US retail investor. And even at the institutional level, only in the last few months have we started to see net inflows into the ETFs. And so, at least as far as the West is concerned, it's been sitting out. It's been sitting out on this massive run in gold that's taken us from 2,000 to almost $3,500 an ounce. And that is, you know, interesting because obviously that's a big part of potential demand is the west. But, you know, we've seen lots of good results in the stock market other than uh, you know, in April during right after so-called liberation day, there was a big downturn and and then by the way, gold demand picked up in in the US during that period of time. But for the most part, gold has had a lot of com competitors for Western investors. it's whether it's been crypto, the stock market itself, other assets. Obviously, the bond market has struggled a little bit, but the stocks have done just fine. And so, I don't think people are really feeling the impetus in the west to buy gold and silver. And in fact, we've seen an increase in selling uh than what we have historically seen from retail investors who've been sitting on gold for a long time and many people are monetizing those gains and and taking cash. I don't think that's necessarily a good idea for the long term, but that's we're seeing that happen. We're seeing a little less buying and we're seeing more selling. And so, you know, what's really been happening has been a story of Asia and of central banks and that and and of course also in reaction to the weaponization of the dollar and the swift system, which you've talked about on this show many times. So, those are the things that have been driving the demand and I think you know that continues. You you see less price sensitive buying from central banks. they continue to buy uh you know Asia is still very strong. If the west kicks in while those things are are ongoing in in the east and with central banks then I think we we see a very very exciting further advance in gold prices and I do think that will be happening over the next year or two. Um but you know obviously we're in a big sideways move here in the last few months but gold has done extremely well. Um it's not getting the credit that it should. It's way underowned in the US and and even in Europe. Uh, but I think that's changing. So, I think we're still very early. Um, and the reasons behind people buying gold and silver are are only increasing and the need to to own it. So, I think we're we're looking good. Um, I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say that's going to be the biggest performer among the precious metals uh going forward, but it's been fantastic up to this point and I think it's going to continue. >> Great overview. and you really went right to the heart of one of the reasons I wanted to have you back which is to find out what you're seeing from customers at your at money medals. So if we can maybe go in a little bit more to that I think the key question to ask is we haven't seen the participation from the west yet. What brings those western investors back in? Do we have to see declines in those other assets you mentioned? Is there something else at play? What are you thinking? Yeah, I think that's the number one driver. I think the stock market continuing to be elevated and do well is probably the biggest factor in why uh investors are not coming into gold in in in droves like they are in other parts of the world. So I think I think there's still a love affair with paper assets in the west. I think that people are very comfortable with that and and and frankly they haven't been penalized for owning them. Stocks have done quite well at least in nominal terms and I think you know we're going to need to see that reverse. Uh and and when that does, that's when I think we we see the US demand pick up big time in gold and silver. And then also I think at some point if you get a runaway galloping uh upward move then there's the fear of missing out starts kicking in more of the speculative mindset. But again in a backdrop when other assets are doing well in nominal terms it's hard to to see you know a total switch into the hard assets like I think we'll eventually have. And you know, as we've been talking about, we do have the gold price still historically elevated right now, although of course we're in a little bit of a pullback at the moment. I think maybe some people might be looking at it and thinking, well, it's it's a little bit high priced at the moment. So, I'm wondering if you could go into if people are looking at buying physical gold, where might they be able to get the best value right now? M well uh pretty much everything is lower in terms of premiums, you know, and that's the amount that you pay above the spot price to buy any kind of physical form of gold or silver, whether it be a bar or a coin. So, you know, American Eagle coins have come way down. You can acquire those very close to spot now. They were, you know, $200 over spot not too long ago. Um really the most efficient way would be like a 1 oz gold bar, a 10 oz, a 5 oz gold bar, a kilo bar. These are available at very low premiums to spot. Um and so and frankly probably the lowest certainly the lowest premiums we've seen in about six years over spot especially in percentage terms. And so it it and that's again that's a reflection of lower retail demand which is also manifested in more people selling which has caused the premium structure to fall because uh you know not only are you know there's more secondary market inventory. These things are resold. They're still in beautiful condition. You know condition isn't really an issue when you're buying uh a gold bar or even a bullion coin. But the point is that there's a lot of the stuff available that's caused the premiums to come down. If you're a mint, frankly, you're doing quite poorly right now. There's very little need, at least in the in the West, uh, and certainly in the US, to, um, to for newly minted product because there's so much secondary market product. And a lot of the newly minted product costs more for the same item than the secondary market. And so, a lot of mints don't have much to do right now. Uh, whereas 3 to four years ago, they were unbelievably busy. Um so I think you know look for low always we always feel you should look for the lowest form or one of the you know look at the lowest cost ways of getting into gold bullion. Make sure you own it directly. Uh stay away from exotic types of things like special run you know premium items. Look at the melt value. Understand what the resale value is. If you were to sell that right back to the same dealer at the same time. What would they pay you? avoid the the dealers that are advertising on TV with the high markups and the celebrity spokespeople. They're they're usually trying to get you into something spe supposedly special or collectible. That's not the way to do it. Um so yeah, in the physical form I would say your best deal is going to be 1 oz bars, gold eagle coins, things like that. Um, so on on silver 100 ounce bars, 10 ounce bars, silver rounds are very very low priced way of getting access to silver. So, you know, we like the bars and the rounds and then bullion coins. >> Really good to get your thoughts there. And of course, we will go over to silver in just a little bit, but before we go just a bit more on gold. So, you outlined a number of the important gold demand drivers right now and we talked a little bit about the price. What do you think is it that pushes gold into its next leg higher? We're mentioning buying in the west. Is there is it that is it something else that you're looking at that that causes that next push? >> Yeah, I think the Fed resuming the rate cuts certainly is going to be a bullish factor for physical gold. Um, and I I think that there's still some debt problems out there and if the the Fed switches into QE, um, you know, gold does well in a negative real interest rate environment and and so that obviously that means that the interest rates are lower than the inflation rate. Well, you know, right now inflation is higher than, you know, the Fed probably wants. um uh but they're not willing to necessarily stick with the rates where they are and pro you know in many ways based on the true rate of inflation they already are in a negative real interest rate environment but if they start cutting uh which I expect them to do this fall and you know probably you know half a point by the end of the year uh I think that that kind of environment and especially if it continues leads to ste more steeply negative real rates and that is a very bullish condition for gold and then if you add you know a stock market rollover into that uh then I think you know I think that's a good combination. Now this, you know, there's been talk about this gold revaluation concept. I I really think that that's overblown the idea that I mean it is technically possible, you know, it is technically possible for the US government to change the statuto or change the book value of gold on its books, but doing that doesn't inherently affect the gold market. um unless they go to the Federal Reserve which holds gold certificates and demand more cash in return for the gold certificates which then would be worth way more in nominal terms because right now they're priced at $42.22 per ounce. So I think you know and I don't think they're going to do that by the way and even and even if they did that you know the the Fed is not and the Treasury is not going to open up gold and start buying it on the open market. So I think it's more of an accounting trick. It may lead to a little bit more funding for the government if they were to do that, but I don't think they're considering to do that, at least not in the near term. I do think that remonetizing gold through, you know, is part of the solution ultimately to the problems we have, but I don't see that being sort of a near-term idea. And it's not really what the treasur I don't believe it's what the Treasury Secretary was talking about when he said he was looking at monetizing the asset side of the balance sheet. I I think that was uh misunderstood. And in fact, he he himself said, "That's not what I was talking about." So, if you believe him, I kind of do. >> Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. That that's an interesting point there to make and a really good topic to go into. Very timely. Just another another timely one that's kind of been in the headlines lately is the tariff situation around gold. Do you think we've seen resolution there in terms of all the all the turmoil? >> Yeah, I do. I don't think there's going to be import tariffs on physical gold bullion. Um I think it, you know, it's it's it's it's been completely chaotic as we've seen. And even that thing a few weeks ago, there were refineries that were asking for clarity on importing rules around kilo bars and other items. And you know the the the I guess the customs came out with a memo or in response they responded to one of these and said, "Oh yeah, there's going to be this what 39% tariff on on importing kilo bars from Switzerland." That that was crazy. Uh they don't one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. Uh you know obviously the Trump administration reversed that that bureaucratic decision there that was done simply in response to an inquiry. But I know that a lot of folks including us who have been importing gold from Europe are needing have been asking for and needing clarity uh on what's happening with the tariffs. But I think it's pretty darn clear at this point that there's no intention to put uh tariffs on go physical gold imports. And I think that would be very damaging and destructive if they did. >> Well, it's it's good to hear it from from you because you're obviously closely involved with that. So I think that gives us a nice idea of many of the factors impacting gold right now. Of course we we want to talk about silver as well. So the price has been on the move this year. Although we didn't get past that $40 level. I think people are wondering if that's going to happen. If you look at silver, what do you think is driving that move? >> Well, I think it's catchup. I think definitely uh silver typically will start slow and then catch up as the as people move more into the metals. we're starting to see that transition where silver is is is finally getting a little bit of love. Um I think it's, you know, it's still at 88 to1. It's a massively high ratio historically. It's not 106 to1 like it was, you know, briefly in in April. Um but it's historically very high. And I think that, you know, that is what we see happen as the gold bull market matures. Silver starts catching up and then eventually outperforms. So, I think we're kind of in that transition period where the gold bull market is well underway and silver is starting to, you know, make a move. Now, you know, there's also this tremendous uh, you know, his historical resistance at $50 that goes back all the way to 1980. That's that's over $200 in today's uh prices. So, silver is dramatically less. Uh, of course, it only briefly got over $20 in 1980. It wasn't like it was there for very long but I think that there's a lot of eyes on the silver market and as it breaks above 40 which I think is a key level uh and then goes and runs and I think it will run towards 50 probably by next spring. If it breaks above 50 that is going to be a huge signal a huge buy signal and that's when I think you're going to see a lot of attention turned to silver in the mainstream. You're going to see people see that they can get silver much cheaper. You know gold is very very expensive $3,500 an ounce. It probably will be higher when this happens. But the point is that people start looking at silver as a bargain. And even though it's at $45 or $50 or $55, I think it's going to gain momentum and especially if it gets over that $50 price. Um, you know, I I do think we're going to be challenging the $50 level by next year. Um, so we'll see. And then if it breaks and and I think when it breaks through that, it's going to it's going to go quite quite a bit higher from there. Yeah, those those higher silver price predictions are definitely starting to sound more and more realistic. And what you're saying ties into another point I wanted to raise with you is obviously every investor is different, but if you're looking at gold versus silver, what would you see as the better the better precious metals buy right now? >> Well, I mean, I always feel that gold is something everybody should start with. Um, it's more stable. It's more it's it's it's it's a much more liquid market. It doesn't move up and down as much. So it's a little bit more sleep easy kind of metal. Uh I think everybody should start with that. Um once you have a position in gold then yes increase with an allocation to silver. It does have other variables. It has those economic uh you know the economic demand. It still has monetary demand. It's a bit of a schizophrenic metal. Um it has it has uh you know has both qualities of the economic and the monetary and sometimes they work against each other. Uh, but I think so it's a it's a bumpier ride. People that are new to investing in precious metals should probably be careful because you can get very scared and and sort of w you know forced out of your position if you're if you're a little bit uh inexperienced. So people shouldn't take on more exposure with silver if they can't handle the volatility. But that said, I mean at this point I would start prioritizing silver if you already have gold. maybe even get as much to to a 50/50 allocation. Um, if you have a very long-term view of precious metals, then I think silver will do way better over the longer term than gold. Uh, but if you have a 6, 12, or 18, 24month mindset, then you're probably going to be better off with with uh with gold. So, you know, it just depends on your risk appetite. It's a much more exciting metal, and I think long term it has more upside. >> Very fair. And I'll throw platinum into the mix as well. I wanted to bring that one up to you because the price has been on the move in the last couple of months. So, where would you fit it in and are you seeing interest from people right now? >> Yeah, a little bit. I mean, a little bit more than usual in in terms of money metals breakdown of gold versus silver. Um, it's it's only started to kind of get back where silver is close to the demand of gold. Um, so but but platinum and platium is like 1 to 2%. platinum maybe uh last year maybe one and a half percent 1% and and maybe moving towards 2% of the overall revenues and and sales volume that we do. So it it is very low in proportion to gold and silver and I think that's appropriate. I mean it really is a different type of metal. It's extremely economically sensitive. Um it is obviously a tight you know there's some shortage you know indications of of tightness in supply. Uh palladium perhaps less. So, I I'm very bullish on platinum, but I wouldn't put that at the center of my precious metals portfolio. Um, it's it's just another sort of diversifier. And, you know, platinum has been historically at uh a premium to the gold price and in up until about 10 years ago, it almost always was higher than gold and sometimes as much as twice as high as the gold price. So, that today we're less than half less than half the gold price. We were a third a few a few months ago actually two three months ago just just then is that when when platinum finally started perking up. So you know I think that alone is a good reason to to maybe get a little platinum exposure because of that catchup move. Um there's some interesting things happening in platinum on the electronic side on the the hydrogen fuel cell batteries and things like that. Jewelry there's uh jewelry demand switching from gold to platinum. Uh, and so th those are other factors that are driving platinum right now. But again, I would I would keep it as a small allocation and that's certainly what we're seeing. We're we're selling more platinum but just a little bit more. >> Well, that context helps a lot. And now that we've spent some time on the physical precious metals, I wanted to go over to the royalty and streaming space. So, this is a sector that that you pay attention to. And before we turn the camera on, you're mentioning that Tether has taken a stake in one of the royalty and streaming companies and want to get your thoughts on that. I'll mention this is the second time that I'm hearing about that deal in the last week or so. So, I think it is important to to go through. >> Yeah, so Tether Investments is the largest stable coin and of course stable coins just had there was a big package of legislation that passed in the US where the the posture has very much changed in the US towards the cryptocurrency market. instead of trying to throw everybody in jail, which is what was happening for a few years, um they're actually embracing the the innovation and technology around that. And stable coins are these idea the idea of having these these these tokens for payment that are backed by say dollars or even gold. Um, now Tether has the largest dollar stable coin and frankly it's an extremely profitable business for them because people are are depositing dollars. Uh, but usually from third world areas where they don't have access to banks or payment mechanisms and so they don't necessarily mind that they're not getting interest. And then Tether then takes those dollars and invests it mostly at first in treasuries, short-term treasuries, and and have, you know, with a four or 5% yield have been getting very large profits. Well, they've now become a very large, I think the seventh or eighth largest buyer of US government securities as a result of this mouse trap they built. And as as anyone who owns owns a lot of dollars these days, um they are getting nervous about having all the dollar exposure they have as as which is perfectly reasonable. And so they have been now diversifying their investments into other things including physical gold which they I think Tether Investments now has like $9 billion in physical gold. They literally bought a uh a bunker in a nuclear bomb shelter in the middle of a Swiss mountain to store their their physical gold uh to back the tether system. And they also have crypto and other assets, but they've now taken a piece of that dollar-based, you know, asset base and started investing in mining royalty companies. And we're talking about a company that has $ 160 billion worth of reserves. Um, and so they recently bought a 50% stake in Elemental Altus, which is about a half billion dollar gold mining royalty company. And, um, this is a company I'm familiar with. I'm I'm a part owner, a small owner in it. And I viewed that as a very bullish situation, not just for Elemental, but for the royalty sector in general. to have a massive investor like that come into the sector and want to, you know, further diversify into the royalty sector, which is another more sort of safe and stable way of getting into the gold sector. Much much less risky than owning mining stocks or and and certainly uh you know, exploration stocks, which are like lottery tickets. So, mining royalty companies are historically great performers for a lot of reasons. They they remove a lot of the negatives about investing in mining. You don't have the government as much of the government risk. You don't have the operational risk, the regulatory risk. You can diversify across many assets. You don't have ongoing capital costs, and you just take a percentage of of the revenues when they come out of the ground. So, it's a great business model in and of itself. Um, and to have Tether come in with their massive treasury and make a big investment there, starting with Elemental Altus and then trying to use a company like that, uh, as maybe a catalyst to roll up other royalty companies in the space and and make new investments. So, I think that's a very bullish factor for the royal mining royalty space. Uh, and so I'm I'm a big fan of that space in general, and I think it's going to get pretty interesting with with new investors coming in like Tether. >> That's what I was going to follow up by asking. Do you think we'll see more entrance like Tether come into the royalty and streaming space or or the gold sector in general? Because I know I know still among precious metals investors, there is that hesitance when it comes to external cryptofocused businesses coming in. Yeah, I do think that the stable coins will start. There's another one called Circle which has the same problem. They have massive dollar stock piles and you know that that's a depreciating asset and so diversifying out into other assets whether it be gold, bullion or or royalty companies. I think that's quite reasonable. I think Tether is attracting attention because they're the dominant player among the stable coins and others are looking at that and and of course there's also a lot of launching of st stable coins and I'm not necessarily saying I'm a big fan of stable coins and I'm not really necessarily saying that goldbacked stable coins are going to be a good thing or a great thing. You know the the thing about the dollar is it circulates because of Gresham's law and and that includes a a dollar back stable coin. It's the bad money, right? I mean, it may be a bad money connected with maybe a smart platform, maybe less regulated, maybe easier for people in other parts of the world that don't have access to banks to use, but it's still the Federal Reserve note and it's a depreciating asset. And that makes it kind of a a currency people want to circulate like a hot potato, right? You know, so so if you have gold, if you have a gold back stable coin, do you really want to spend your gold? You know, I I want to save my gold. I want to I don't want to spend it. So that's why the better money goes into private hordes. You know, it's called Gresham's law. The good money pushes the bad money out. I'm sorry, the the the bad money pushes the good money uh out of circulation and into private hordes and the bad money is what circulates. So a dollarbacked stable coin is the bad money. It's just a kind of a cleverly wellbuilt enabled way of using it. Um so you know, again, I'm I'm I'm not against cryptos. I'm not really super excited about them. I still think that, you know, hard assets are the way to go. Uh but these developments are significant and there's certainly a lot of resources in that space and to have that turn towards the gold space which has been starved of capital especially the mining sector for all these years you know the last 15 years I think it's a very positive de development but that doesn't mean that you have to get excited about crypto but I think it's a reason to get excited about mining equities and particularly royalty companies. >> I definitely see what you're saying there so thank you for going into that. I think there's a lot of nuance to unpack and it'll be really interesting to to see where it goes. >> Also wanted to go into you with uh policy initiatives in the US. I know you're involved in and tracking what's going on in terms of making gold, silver, precious metals more accessible to people in the US. So anything you would highlight there developments you've seen recently? >> Yeah, I think that we have seen a tremendous amount of momentum pick up for sound money policy. So, so Money Metals is very focused, you know, obviously we're a bullion dealer, we're a depository, we're we we have a lending program, but we also are involved in public policy in the US trying to pass laws that promote sound money and and the most important of those policies we think in terms of reenabling or remonetizing gold and silver is to remove the taxation. The taxation around the buying of precious metals in the form of sales tax, getting rid of the sales tax. Uh that's number one. 45 states now have ended the sales tax in the US. It was 30 states when we started about 12 years ago or 33 something like that. So we've seen a big uh uh uh amount of success in the sales tax removal area. Then from then from there is the income tax. So removing income tax when you sell. Uh so that's a federal problem but states also charge income tax on capital gains. And so uh we are now moving toward more towards having states encouraging states to remove the income tax. And uh I believe six states uh there's eight states that don't have a state income tax and then there's six that have affirmatively removed it from gold and silver. So we now have 14 states that don't have income tax in gold and silver. There's other other types of taxes on businesses that sell gold and silver, you know, and tax them on their total sales when their margins are this small. So, there's other other things to do on the tax front, but the gold uh and silver sales tax and income tax are the top two. And we're seeing a lot of progress. I think we passed seven bills this year. Uh five of them were relating to taxes. Um last year it was six. The year before it was five. Before that, it was three. 10 years ago it was it was our first one. So, I mean, we're seeing a lot of momentum. This past legislative state uh season here in the states, money metals saw, I think something like 30 states introduce bills. There are about 50 or 60 bills involving sound money when 10 or 15 years 12 years ago there were just a couple, three bills. So we're seeing a lot of enthusiasm and of course that's partly as a result of the things people see happening with inflation with the monetary system. So, I mean, they're trying to do something about it and now they're seeing, hey, there are things we can do about this. And so, removing the taxes, uh, then encouraging states to own gold and silver as a reserve asset. So, just recently, the last year, we had both Utah and Wyoming, uh, start a gold reserve for their states. Um, Ohio owns gold and several other states are now looking at gold reserves bills. Um there's other bills involving um uh harassment of dealers and harassment of investors, privacy invasions, things like that that we're addressing. Several states have have pretty hostile laws towards the sector. So, but we think removing the friction on the buying and selling by ending the taxes, getting a state to bolster its reserves uh by owning gold in reserve and and bolster its finances. There's other proposals out there that are asking states to engage in public private partnerships with payment app and payment vendors in the gold sort of gold payment apps. We have some mixed feelings about those. You know, while we think some of those ideas are well-meaning, we're not sure that the state should be embracing uh public private partnership with private companies uh for payment app type infrastructure. Um, and particularly since it it could spawn a very large regulatory rulemaking process, which we're already seeing in Florida, where the state of Florida on a bill that was sold as a sound money reform is now actually going and writing very burdensome regulation for the entire precious metals sector, which impacts not just dealers, but anyone who stores gold and silver and also uh customers. So we're we're monitoring that area with some skepticism. Uh but on the whole, it's a very positive uh set of developments in in in the US for sound money at the state level. The the federal level is a much bigger problem. That's actually where the problem originates um with the Federal Reserve system and and and Congress. Uh but there are some bills there. We have a bill to audit Fort Knox, including any incumbrances, you know, that may have been placed against the gold. There's a bill in the House that was introduced last month that would address that. Of course, there was a lot of talk about that a few months ago. They didn't do anything, you know, but we didn't need a PR stunt. We didn't need a a video walkthrough like Elon Musk was proposing. We needed an actual audit, assay, inventory, and an examination of any leases, swaps, uh, pledges, other incumbrances that may have been placed against the gold. So, there's the right way to do that. There's a bill that's been introduced that hopefully will get some traction. Uh so we've got some things going on at the federal level, but the real uh excitement for the sound money movement has been at the state level where a lot of these things are being achieved. >> Really good over the view there as well. Thank you for going into that. And maybe just a a small followup because you're mentioning the Fort Knox audit which did get a lot of headlines. As we see these state level reserves being built up, are there mechanisms in place to have ongoing audits and tracking of that so people know that it's actually there? Yeah. Well, the the good thing is that the states are putting these into depositories that have these procedures in place. So, they're not giving it to the US government. They're giving it to the US government. There would be no audits being go going on because they don't or at least no credible audits. They have a process. They audit the seals. There were problems in the past in the US in the US Bullion Depository where seals were re repixed to doors that had been had been the seals had been broken. Things had been moved. They didn't re audit before they put the seal back on. So you can't just say it's been audited 30 years ago. We don't have to audit it again. When you open it up, something happened, it wasn't reodited. The principles of auditing, you know, are dual controls ongoing. It's not one and done. It's an ongoing process. Whenever anything is open, like at Money Metals Depository, we open a container. It's under camera. There's two people involved. There's, you know, there's checking. There's testing. And anytime a seal is broken, it has to be reawited. And so, you know, private depositories, whether it be ours or others that are involved in these in these state reserves, are doing or should be and I think are doing the right things with us. But, you know, they're not giving it to the US government. That's for sure. >> Okay. Okay. That is great to hear. And I will let you go, but before I do, any final thoughts you would leave with precious metals investors right now? Yeah, I I would say, you know, we're still in a market that is really undiscovered and and you know, I can tell you if you ask if you if you ask all the people in your orbit how many of them own gold and silver, I bet very few. Maybe 1 2 3%. Maybe they're they're not going to tell you, which which is probably smart. You don't you don't want to talk about what you own, especially if you have it in your house or whatever. But the bottom line is, you know, less than 2% of the US public has any gold or silver whatsoever other than maybe a piece of jewelry. Uh, and that's a problem. I think that's going to change. I think we're very early. Um, I think, you know, as again as the stock market rolls over or inflation kind of runs away and yet the Fed is slashing rates like there's no tomorrow, I think we're going to see an awakening in our country and and and and in North America and in Europe, uh, where we'll see a lot of people coming into this. But right now, we're very early and, uh, we're kind of on the cutting edge, you and I, and and everybody who's listening today. >> Well, I think that's a really good place to wrap it up. So, thank you so much for coming on to go over what's happening in gold and silver and of course a little bit of platinum. This was great. >> Great. Thank you. Thanks, Charlotte. >> Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and this is Stephan Gleason with Money Metals. Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below. [Music]
Stefan Gleason: What Drives Gold's Next Move Higher, "Huge" Silver Buy Signal
Summary
Transcript
[Music] I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Stephan Gleason, CEO of Money Metals. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. >> Great to be back, Charlotte. Thank you. >> Really good to be catching up with you. It's been a year since our last conversation, so we have so much to go through. And where I thought we could begin is, of course, with gold. So price has been on an impressive run, although right now we're in a little bit of a a summer slowdown or cool down. I wanted to ask if you can set the stage by talking about where you see gold in the current cycle. >> Well, I think we're still very early in in what will will be a very exciting long-term bull run uh in gold. And you know the last 2 to 3 years has really been kind of a a a sleeper period. Um at least in terms of western demand for gold and silver. We just haven't seen much. Um in fact we at least on the retail side you know as money metals is one of the largest online precious metals dealers in America. We're we saw more demand on the retail side during co which was before gold and silver really started taking off uh and broke above 200 like it did about 2 years ago. But since then, since that breakout, we've actually seen very little participation from the US retail investor. And even at the institutional level, only in the last few months have we started to see net inflows into the ETFs. And so, at least as far as the West is concerned, it's been sitting out. It's been sitting out on this massive run in gold that's taken us from 2,000 to almost $3,500 an ounce. And that is, you know, interesting because obviously that's a big part of potential demand is the west. But, you know, we've seen lots of good results in the stock market other than uh, you know, in April during right after so-called liberation day, there was a big downturn and and then by the way, gold demand picked up in in the US during that period of time. But for the most part, gold has had a lot of com competitors for Western investors. it's whether it's been crypto, the stock market itself, other assets. Obviously, the bond market has struggled a little bit, but the stocks have done just fine. And so, I don't think people are really feeling the impetus in the west to buy gold and silver. And in fact, we've seen an increase in selling uh than what we have historically seen from retail investors who've been sitting on gold for a long time and many people are monetizing those gains and and taking cash. I don't think that's necessarily a good idea for the long term, but that's we're seeing that happen. We're seeing a little less buying and we're seeing more selling. And so, you know, what's really been happening has been a story of Asia and of central banks and that and and of course also in reaction to the weaponization of the dollar and the swift system, which you've talked about on this show many times. So, those are the things that have been driving the demand and I think you know that continues. You you see less price sensitive buying from central banks. they continue to buy uh you know Asia is still very strong. If the west kicks in while those things are are ongoing in in the east and with central banks then I think we we see a very very exciting further advance in gold prices and I do think that will be happening over the next year or two. Um but you know obviously we're in a big sideways move here in the last few months but gold has done extremely well. Um it's not getting the credit that it should. It's way underowned in the US and and even in Europe. Uh, but I think that's changing. So, I think we're still very early. Um, and the reasons behind people buying gold and silver are are only increasing and the need to to own it. So, I think we're we're looking good. Um, I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say that's going to be the biggest performer among the precious metals uh going forward, but it's been fantastic up to this point and I think it's going to continue. >> Great overview. and you really went right to the heart of one of the reasons I wanted to have you back which is to find out what you're seeing from customers at your at money medals. So if we can maybe go in a little bit more to that I think the key question to ask is we haven't seen the participation from the west yet. What brings those western investors back in? Do we have to see declines in those other assets you mentioned? Is there something else at play? What are you thinking? Yeah, I think that's the number one driver. I think the stock market continuing to be elevated and do well is probably the biggest factor in why uh investors are not coming into gold in in in droves like they are in other parts of the world. So I think I think there's still a love affair with paper assets in the west. I think that people are very comfortable with that and and and frankly they haven't been penalized for owning them. Stocks have done quite well at least in nominal terms and I think you know we're going to need to see that reverse. Uh and and when that does, that's when I think we we see the US demand pick up big time in gold and silver. And then also I think at some point if you get a runaway galloping uh upward move then there's the fear of missing out starts kicking in more of the speculative mindset. But again in a backdrop when other assets are doing well in nominal terms it's hard to to see you know a total switch into the hard assets like I think we'll eventually have. And you know, as we've been talking about, we do have the gold price still historically elevated right now, although of course we're in a little bit of a pullback at the moment. I think maybe some people might be looking at it and thinking, well, it's it's a little bit high priced at the moment. So, I'm wondering if you could go into if people are looking at buying physical gold, where might they be able to get the best value right now? M well uh pretty much everything is lower in terms of premiums, you know, and that's the amount that you pay above the spot price to buy any kind of physical form of gold or silver, whether it be a bar or a coin. So, you know, American Eagle coins have come way down. You can acquire those very close to spot now. They were, you know, $200 over spot not too long ago. Um really the most efficient way would be like a 1 oz gold bar, a 10 oz, a 5 oz gold bar, a kilo bar. These are available at very low premiums to spot. Um and so and frankly probably the lowest certainly the lowest premiums we've seen in about six years over spot especially in percentage terms. And so it it and that's again that's a reflection of lower retail demand which is also manifested in more people selling which has caused the premium structure to fall because uh you know not only are you know there's more secondary market inventory. These things are resold. They're still in beautiful condition. You know condition isn't really an issue when you're buying uh a gold bar or even a bullion coin. But the point is that there's a lot of the stuff available that's caused the premiums to come down. If you're a mint, frankly, you're doing quite poorly right now. There's very little need, at least in the in the West, uh, and certainly in the US, to, um, to for newly minted product because there's so much secondary market product. And a lot of the newly minted product costs more for the same item than the secondary market. And so, a lot of mints don't have much to do right now. Uh, whereas 3 to four years ago, they were unbelievably busy. Um so I think you know look for low always we always feel you should look for the lowest form or one of the you know look at the lowest cost ways of getting into gold bullion. Make sure you own it directly. Uh stay away from exotic types of things like special run you know premium items. Look at the melt value. Understand what the resale value is. If you were to sell that right back to the same dealer at the same time. What would they pay you? avoid the the dealers that are advertising on TV with the high markups and the celebrity spokespeople. They're they're usually trying to get you into something spe supposedly special or collectible. That's not the way to do it. Um so yeah, in the physical form I would say your best deal is going to be 1 oz bars, gold eagle coins, things like that. Um, so on on silver 100 ounce bars, 10 ounce bars, silver rounds are very very low priced way of getting access to silver. So, you know, we like the bars and the rounds and then bullion coins. >> Really good to get your thoughts there. And of course, we will go over to silver in just a little bit, but before we go just a bit more on gold. So, you outlined a number of the important gold demand drivers right now and we talked a little bit about the price. What do you think is it that pushes gold into its next leg higher? We're mentioning buying in the west. Is there is it that is it something else that you're looking at that that causes that next push? >> Yeah, I think the Fed resuming the rate cuts certainly is going to be a bullish factor for physical gold. Um, and I I think that there's still some debt problems out there and if the the Fed switches into QE, um, you know, gold does well in a negative real interest rate environment and and so that obviously that means that the interest rates are lower than the inflation rate. Well, you know, right now inflation is higher than, you know, the Fed probably wants. um uh but they're not willing to necessarily stick with the rates where they are and pro you know in many ways based on the true rate of inflation they already are in a negative real interest rate environment but if they start cutting uh which I expect them to do this fall and you know probably you know half a point by the end of the year uh I think that that kind of environment and especially if it continues leads to ste more steeply negative real rates and that is a very bullish condition for gold and then if you add you know a stock market rollover into that uh then I think you know I think that's a good combination. Now this, you know, there's been talk about this gold revaluation concept. I I really think that that's overblown the idea that I mean it is technically possible, you know, it is technically possible for the US government to change the statuto or change the book value of gold on its books, but doing that doesn't inherently affect the gold market. um unless they go to the Federal Reserve which holds gold certificates and demand more cash in return for the gold certificates which then would be worth way more in nominal terms because right now they're priced at $42.22 per ounce. So I think you know and I don't think they're going to do that by the way and even and even if they did that you know the the Fed is not and the Treasury is not going to open up gold and start buying it on the open market. So I think it's more of an accounting trick. It may lead to a little bit more funding for the government if they were to do that, but I don't think they're considering to do that, at least not in the near term. I do think that remonetizing gold through, you know, is part of the solution ultimately to the problems we have, but I don't see that being sort of a near-term idea. And it's not really what the treasur I don't believe it's what the Treasury Secretary was talking about when he said he was looking at monetizing the asset side of the balance sheet. I I think that was uh misunderstood. And in fact, he he himself said, "That's not what I was talking about." So, if you believe him, I kind of do. >> Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. That that's an interesting point there to make and a really good topic to go into. Very timely. Just another another timely one that's kind of been in the headlines lately is the tariff situation around gold. Do you think we've seen resolution there in terms of all the all the turmoil? >> Yeah, I do. I don't think there's going to be import tariffs on physical gold bullion. Um I think it, you know, it's it's it's it's been completely chaotic as we've seen. And even that thing a few weeks ago, there were refineries that were asking for clarity on importing rules around kilo bars and other items. And you know the the the I guess the customs came out with a memo or in response they responded to one of these and said, "Oh yeah, there's going to be this what 39% tariff on on importing kilo bars from Switzerland." That that was crazy. Uh they don't one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. Uh you know obviously the Trump administration reversed that that bureaucratic decision there that was done simply in response to an inquiry. But I know that a lot of folks including us who have been importing gold from Europe are needing have been asking for and needing clarity uh on what's happening with the tariffs. But I think it's pretty darn clear at this point that there's no intention to put uh tariffs on go physical gold imports. And I think that would be very damaging and destructive if they did. >> Well, it's it's good to hear it from from you because you're obviously closely involved with that. So I think that gives us a nice idea of many of the factors impacting gold right now. Of course we we want to talk about silver as well. So the price has been on the move this year. Although we didn't get past that $40 level. I think people are wondering if that's going to happen. If you look at silver, what do you think is driving that move? >> Well, I think it's catchup. I think definitely uh silver typically will start slow and then catch up as the as people move more into the metals. we're starting to see that transition where silver is is is finally getting a little bit of love. Um I think it's, you know, it's still at 88 to1. It's a massively high ratio historically. It's not 106 to1 like it was, you know, briefly in in April. Um but it's historically very high. And I think that, you know, that is what we see happen as the gold bull market matures. Silver starts catching up and then eventually outperforms. So, I think we're kind of in that transition period where the gold bull market is well underway and silver is starting to, you know, make a move. Now, you know, there's also this tremendous uh, you know, his historical resistance at $50 that goes back all the way to 1980. That's that's over $200 in today's uh prices. So, silver is dramatically less. Uh, of course, it only briefly got over $20 in 1980. It wasn't like it was there for very long but I think that there's a lot of eyes on the silver market and as it breaks above 40 which I think is a key level uh and then goes and runs and I think it will run towards 50 probably by next spring. If it breaks above 50 that is going to be a huge signal a huge buy signal and that's when I think you're going to see a lot of attention turned to silver in the mainstream. You're going to see people see that they can get silver much cheaper. You know gold is very very expensive $3,500 an ounce. It probably will be higher when this happens. But the point is that people start looking at silver as a bargain. And even though it's at $45 or $50 or $55, I think it's going to gain momentum and especially if it gets over that $50 price. Um, you know, I I do think we're going to be challenging the $50 level by next year. Um, so we'll see. And then if it breaks and and I think when it breaks through that, it's going to it's going to go quite quite a bit higher from there. Yeah, those those higher silver price predictions are definitely starting to sound more and more realistic. And what you're saying ties into another point I wanted to raise with you is obviously every investor is different, but if you're looking at gold versus silver, what would you see as the better the better precious metals buy right now? >> Well, I mean, I always feel that gold is something everybody should start with. Um, it's more stable. It's more it's it's it's it's a much more liquid market. It doesn't move up and down as much. So it's a little bit more sleep easy kind of metal. Uh I think everybody should start with that. Um once you have a position in gold then yes increase with an allocation to silver. It does have other variables. It has those economic uh you know the economic demand. It still has monetary demand. It's a bit of a schizophrenic metal. Um it has it has uh you know has both qualities of the economic and the monetary and sometimes they work against each other. Uh, but I think so it's a it's a bumpier ride. People that are new to investing in precious metals should probably be careful because you can get very scared and and sort of w you know forced out of your position if you're if you're a little bit uh inexperienced. So people shouldn't take on more exposure with silver if they can't handle the volatility. But that said, I mean at this point I would start prioritizing silver if you already have gold. maybe even get as much to to a 50/50 allocation. Um, if you have a very long-term view of precious metals, then I think silver will do way better over the longer term than gold. Uh, but if you have a 6, 12, or 18, 24month mindset, then you're probably going to be better off with with uh with gold. So, you know, it just depends on your risk appetite. It's a much more exciting metal, and I think long term it has more upside. >> Very fair. And I'll throw platinum into the mix as well. I wanted to bring that one up to you because the price has been on the move in the last couple of months. So, where would you fit it in and are you seeing interest from people right now? >> Yeah, a little bit. I mean, a little bit more than usual in in terms of money metals breakdown of gold versus silver. Um, it's it's only started to kind of get back where silver is close to the demand of gold. Um, so but but platinum and platium is like 1 to 2%. platinum maybe uh last year maybe one and a half percent 1% and and maybe moving towards 2% of the overall revenues and and sales volume that we do. So it it is very low in proportion to gold and silver and I think that's appropriate. I mean it really is a different type of metal. It's extremely economically sensitive. Um it is obviously a tight you know there's some shortage you know indications of of tightness in supply. Uh palladium perhaps less. So, I I'm very bullish on platinum, but I wouldn't put that at the center of my precious metals portfolio. Um, it's it's just another sort of diversifier. And, you know, platinum has been historically at uh a premium to the gold price and in up until about 10 years ago, it almost always was higher than gold and sometimes as much as twice as high as the gold price. So, that today we're less than half less than half the gold price. We were a third a few a few months ago actually two three months ago just just then is that when when platinum finally started perking up. So you know I think that alone is a good reason to to maybe get a little platinum exposure because of that catchup move. Um there's some interesting things happening in platinum on the electronic side on the the hydrogen fuel cell batteries and things like that. Jewelry there's uh jewelry demand switching from gold to platinum. Uh, and so th those are other factors that are driving platinum right now. But again, I would I would keep it as a small allocation and that's certainly what we're seeing. We're we're selling more platinum but just a little bit more. >> Well, that context helps a lot. And now that we've spent some time on the physical precious metals, I wanted to go over to the royalty and streaming space. So, this is a sector that that you pay attention to. And before we turn the camera on, you're mentioning that Tether has taken a stake in one of the royalty and streaming companies and want to get your thoughts on that. I'll mention this is the second time that I'm hearing about that deal in the last week or so. So, I think it is important to to go through. >> Yeah, so Tether Investments is the largest stable coin and of course stable coins just had there was a big package of legislation that passed in the US where the the posture has very much changed in the US towards the cryptocurrency market. instead of trying to throw everybody in jail, which is what was happening for a few years, um they're actually embracing the the innovation and technology around that. And stable coins are these idea the idea of having these these these tokens for payment that are backed by say dollars or even gold. Um, now Tether has the largest dollar stable coin and frankly it's an extremely profitable business for them because people are are depositing dollars. Uh, but usually from third world areas where they don't have access to banks or payment mechanisms and so they don't necessarily mind that they're not getting interest. And then Tether then takes those dollars and invests it mostly at first in treasuries, short-term treasuries, and and have, you know, with a four or 5% yield have been getting very large profits. Well, they've now become a very large, I think the seventh or eighth largest buyer of US government securities as a result of this mouse trap they built. And as as anyone who owns owns a lot of dollars these days, um they are getting nervous about having all the dollar exposure they have as as which is perfectly reasonable. And so they have been now diversifying their investments into other things including physical gold which they I think Tether Investments now has like $9 billion in physical gold. They literally bought a uh a bunker in a nuclear bomb shelter in the middle of a Swiss mountain to store their their physical gold uh to back the tether system. And they also have crypto and other assets, but they've now taken a piece of that dollar-based, you know, asset base and started investing in mining royalty companies. And we're talking about a company that has $ 160 billion worth of reserves. Um, and so they recently bought a 50% stake in Elemental Altus, which is about a half billion dollar gold mining royalty company. And, um, this is a company I'm familiar with. I'm I'm a part owner, a small owner in it. And I viewed that as a very bullish situation, not just for Elemental, but for the royalty sector in general. to have a massive investor like that come into the sector and want to, you know, further diversify into the royalty sector, which is another more sort of safe and stable way of getting into the gold sector. Much much less risky than owning mining stocks or and and certainly uh you know, exploration stocks, which are like lottery tickets. So, mining royalty companies are historically great performers for a lot of reasons. They they remove a lot of the negatives about investing in mining. You don't have the government as much of the government risk. You don't have the operational risk, the regulatory risk. You can diversify across many assets. You don't have ongoing capital costs, and you just take a percentage of of the revenues when they come out of the ground. So, it's a great business model in and of itself. Um, and to have Tether come in with their massive treasury and make a big investment there, starting with Elemental Altus and then trying to use a company like that, uh, as maybe a catalyst to roll up other royalty companies in the space and and make new investments. So, I think that's a very bullish factor for the royal mining royalty space. Uh, and so I'm I'm a big fan of that space in general, and I think it's going to get pretty interesting with with new investors coming in like Tether. >> That's what I was going to follow up by asking. Do you think we'll see more entrance like Tether come into the royalty and streaming space or or the gold sector in general? Because I know I know still among precious metals investors, there is that hesitance when it comes to external cryptofocused businesses coming in. Yeah, I do think that the stable coins will start. There's another one called Circle which has the same problem. They have massive dollar stock piles and you know that that's a depreciating asset and so diversifying out into other assets whether it be gold, bullion or or royalty companies. I think that's quite reasonable. I think Tether is attracting attention because they're the dominant player among the stable coins and others are looking at that and and of course there's also a lot of launching of st stable coins and I'm not necessarily saying I'm a big fan of stable coins and I'm not really necessarily saying that goldbacked stable coins are going to be a good thing or a great thing. You know the the thing about the dollar is it circulates because of Gresham's law and and that includes a a dollar back stable coin. It's the bad money, right? I mean, it may be a bad money connected with maybe a smart platform, maybe less regulated, maybe easier for people in other parts of the world that don't have access to banks to use, but it's still the Federal Reserve note and it's a depreciating asset. And that makes it kind of a a currency people want to circulate like a hot potato, right? You know, so so if you have gold, if you have a gold back stable coin, do you really want to spend your gold? You know, I I want to save my gold. I want to I don't want to spend it. So that's why the better money goes into private hordes. You know, it's called Gresham's law. The good money pushes the bad money out. I'm sorry, the the the bad money pushes the good money uh out of circulation and into private hordes and the bad money is what circulates. So a dollarbacked stable coin is the bad money. It's just a kind of a cleverly wellbuilt enabled way of using it. Um so you know, again, I'm I'm I'm not against cryptos. I'm not really super excited about them. I still think that, you know, hard assets are the way to go. Uh but these developments are significant and there's certainly a lot of resources in that space and to have that turn towards the gold space which has been starved of capital especially the mining sector for all these years you know the last 15 years I think it's a very positive de development but that doesn't mean that you have to get excited about crypto but I think it's a reason to get excited about mining equities and particularly royalty companies. >> I definitely see what you're saying there so thank you for going into that. I think there's a lot of nuance to unpack and it'll be really interesting to to see where it goes. >> Also wanted to go into you with uh policy initiatives in the US. I know you're involved in and tracking what's going on in terms of making gold, silver, precious metals more accessible to people in the US. So anything you would highlight there developments you've seen recently? >> Yeah, I think that we have seen a tremendous amount of momentum pick up for sound money policy. So, so Money Metals is very focused, you know, obviously we're a bullion dealer, we're a depository, we're we we have a lending program, but we also are involved in public policy in the US trying to pass laws that promote sound money and and the most important of those policies we think in terms of reenabling or remonetizing gold and silver is to remove the taxation. The taxation around the buying of precious metals in the form of sales tax, getting rid of the sales tax. Uh that's number one. 45 states now have ended the sales tax in the US. It was 30 states when we started about 12 years ago or 33 something like that. So we've seen a big uh uh uh amount of success in the sales tax removal area. Then from then from there is the income tax. So removing income tax when you sell. Uh so that's a federal problem but states also charge income tax on capital gains. And so uh we are now moving toward more towards having states encouraging states to remove the income tax. And uh I believe six states uh there's eight states that don't have a state income tax and then there's six that have affirmatively removed it from gold and silver. So we now have 14 states that don't have income tax in gold and silver. There's other other types of taxes on businesses that sell gold and silver, you know, and tax them on their total sales when their margins are this small. So, there's other other things to do on the tax front, but the gold uh and silver sales tax and income tax are the top two. And we're seeing a lot of progress. I think we passed seven bills this year. Uh five of them were relating to taxes. Um last year it was six. The year before it was five. Before that, it was three. 10 years ago it was it was our first one. So, I mean, we're seeing a lot of momentum. This past legislative state uh season here in the states, money metals saw, I think something like 30 states introduce bills. There are about 50 or 60 bills involving sound money when 10 or 15 years 12 years ago there were just a couple, three bills. So we're seeing a lot of enthusiasm and of course that's partly as a result of the things people see happening with inflation with the monetary system. So, I mean, they're trying to do something about it and now they're seeing, hey, there are things we can do about this. And so, removing the taxes, uh, then encouraging states to own gold and silver as a reserve asset. So, just recently, the last year, we had both Utah and Wyoming, uh, start a gold reserve for their states. Um, Ohio owns gold and several other states are now looking at gold reserves bills. Um there's other bills involving um uh harassment of dealers and harassment of investors, privacy invasions, things like that that we're addressing. Several states have have pretty hostile laws towards the sector. So, but we think removing the friction on the buying and selling by ending the taxes, getting a state to bolster its reserves uh by owning gold in reserve and and bolster its finances. There's other proposals out there that are asking states to engage in public private partnerships with payment app and payment vendors in the gold sort of gold payment apps. We have some mixed feelings about those. You know, while we think some of those ideas are well-meaning, we're not sure that the state should be embracing uh public private partnership with private companies uh for payment app type infrastructure. Um, and particularly since it it could spawn a very large regulatory rulemaking process, which we're already seeing in Florida, where the state of Florida on a bill that was sold as a sound money reform is now actually going and writing very burdensome regulation for the entire precious metals sector, which impacts not just dealers, but anyone who stores gold and silver and also uh customers. So we're we're monitoring that area with some skepticism. Uh but on the whole, it's a very positive uh set of developments in in in the US for sound money at the state level. The the federal level is a much bigger problem. That's actually where the problem originates um with the Federal Reserve system and and and Congress. Uh but there are some bills there. We have a bill to audit Fort Knox, including any incumbrances, you know, that may have been placed against the gold. There's a bill in the House that was introduced last month that would address that. Of course, there was a lot of talk about that a few months ago. They didn't do anything, you know, but we didn't need a PR stunt. We didn't need a a video walkthrough like Elon Musk was proposing. We needed an actual audit, assay, inventory, and an examination of any leases, swaps, uh, pledges, other incumbrances that may have been placed against the gold. So, there's the right way to do that. There's a bill that's been introduced that hopefully will get some traction. Uh so we've got some things going on at the federal level, but the real uh excitement for the sound money movement has been at the state level where a lot of these things are being achieved. >> Really good over the view there as well. Thank you for going into that. And maybe just a a small followup because you're mentioning the Fort Knox audit which did get a lot of headlines. As we see these state level reserves being built up, are there mechanisms in place to have ongoing audits and tracking of that so people know that it's actually there? Yeah. Well, the the good thing is that the states are putting these into depositories that have these procedures in place. So, they're not giving it to the US government. They're giving it to the US government. There would be no audits being go going on because they don't or at least no credible audits. They have a process. They audit the seals. There were problems in the past in the US in the US Bullion Depository where seals were re repixed to doors that had been had been the seals had been broken. Things had been moved. They didn't re audit before they put the seal back on. So you can't just say it's been audited 30 years ago. We don't have to audit it again. When you open it up, something happened, it wasn't reodited. The principles of auditing, you know, are dual controls ongoing. It's not one and done. It's an ongoing process. Whenever anything is open, like at Money Metals Depository, we open a container. It's under camera. There's two people involved. There's, you know, there's checking. There's testing. And anytime a seal is broken, it has to be reawited. And so, you know, private depositories, whether it be ours or others that are involved in these in these state reserves, are doing or should be and I think are doing the right things with us. But, you know, they're not giving it to the US government. That's for sure. >> Okay. Okay. That is great to hear. And I will let you go, but before I do, any final thoughts you would leave with precious metals investors right now? Yeah, I I would say, you know, we're still in a market that is really undiscovered and and you know, I can tell you if you ask if you if you ask all the people in your orbit how many of them own gold and silver, I bet very few. Maybe 1 2 3%. Maybe they're they're not going to tell you, which which is probably smart. You don't you don't want to talk about what you own, especially if you have it in your house or whatever. But the bottom line is, you know, less than 2% of the US public has any gold or silver whatsoever other than maybe a piece of jewelry. Uh, and that's a problem. I think that's going to change. I think we're very early. Um, I think, you know, as again as the stock market rolls over or inflation kind of runs away and yet the Fed is slashing rates like there's no tomorrow, I think we're going to see an awakening in our country and and and and in North America and in Europe, uh, where we'll see a lot of people coming into this. But right now, we're very early and, uh, we're kind of on the cutting edge, you and I, and and everybody who's listening today. >> Well, I think that's a really good place to wrap it up. So, thank you so much for coming on to go over what's happening in gold and silver and of course a little bit of platinum. This was great. >> Great. Thank you. Thanks, Charlotte. >> Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and this is Stephan Gleason with Money Metals. Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below. [Music]