Grant Williams: Gold’s Real Role & Why the Dollar’s Future Is at Risk
Summary
Gold Investment Philosophy: Grant Williams emphasizes that gold is not for trading but for preserving wealth and purchasing power, viewing it as a long-term protector rather than a means to make money.
Market Dynamics: The discussion highlights the fragility of the current economic system, with concerns about the sustainability of debt and the potential shift away from the dollar standard.
Global Economic Shifts: The freezing of Russian central bank assets in 2022 is seen as a pivotal moment, prompting countries to reduce reliance on the dollar and increase gold reserves as a safeguard.
BRICS and Dollar Alternatives: Although the BRICS nations have not yet established a common currency, the movement towards reducing dollar dependency is ongoing, driven by geopolitical and economic incentives.
Investment Strategy: Williams advocates for a focus on understanding personal investment goals and adapting strategies to changing global conditions, rather than seeking short-term stock tips.
Portfolio Composition: He suggests a significant allocation to gold, supplemented by short-term cash instruments and private loans, to maintain stability and flexibility in uncertain markets.
Future Economic Outlook: The conversation suggests that the next 40 years may present more economic headwinds compared to the past, requiring investors to rethink their approaches to wealth preservation.
Transcript
I've never bought gold to make money. I bought gold to keep money. >> And so the price is irrelevant. It's really what I can exchange it for. I feel very confident it's going to keep going higher because of the nature of the world we live in. >> But I'm not looking at 5,000 is the target where I'm going to sell it. Right now I own a lot of gold. If you're looking for a simple, secure way to invest in physical gold and silver, check out Hardass Assets Alliance at hardassetsalliance.com. [Music] >> Hi, my name is Trey Reich and back in July I had a very interesting conversation with Grant Williams at the Rick Rule Natural Resources Symposium down in Boca Raton. Grant is the publisher of the very interesting report, Things That Make You Go, Hm, which I've read for years. And our conversation really makes sense today with gold trading just under $3,800 bucks an ounce because back then it was trading at just under $3,400 an ounce. And Grant was making the point that gold is the furthest thing from a trade. But at least in his life and I think for most investors especially as the global economy moves away from the dollar standard system really a very effective long-term protector of wealth and buying power. So I thought we'd return to our interview with Grant to bring people up to date on his thoughts about gold's long-term role in an investment portfolio. And for those who are interested in Wealthon's gold report, please go to wealthon.com/gold. Let's take a look. We're here today with Grant Williams, who is the author of the things that make me go hm for 20 years. >> Not quite, but jeez, must be Yeah. 16. >> 16 years. And I uh when I had a big soft dollar account, I used to be a paid subscriber, but now I'm just uh you know, now that I no longer have the soft dollars, I'm just a fan. >> Um and I I wanted to start by asking you, is this your first Rick Rule conference? >> God, no. No. I've been I've been doing this for a number of years. I was doing it back in Vancouver. >> Uhhuh. So what, 20? >> No, no, no, no, no, no. Uh yeah, maybe close to 10, actually. >> Yeah, maybe close to 10. I loved it in Vancouver, I must admit. I got nothing against Florida. Vancouver in July is just >> fantastic. So, I was I was bummed when it moved down here, but now I've been here a few years. I actually really enjoy coming down here, too. >> Right. And how did you meet Rick? And what's your relationship? >> Uh, do you know what? I honestly can't remember. I got introduced to Rick by mutual friends of ours a long time ago. And um, >> you know, he's just the prince of a human being, right? And he's just one of those people that you meet him and he's just he's just a fantastic guy. So, I I love Rick and Bonnie. They're just they're just two of my favorite people in the world. So whenever he asks me to come speak, I'm I'm there. >> I asked my bosses and boss's bosses who we met last night at dinner why they were here and they go to support Rick. >> So everybody's here >> to support Rick. Exactly. Right. >> And uh >> I know that for a fact he really enjoys these conferences more than anything that he does. He loves to people and getting to meet them and pressing the flesh and >> helping people. So the whole thing is is fun to be a part of. >> Yeah. So you were on a panel yesterday which I got >> a lot of a lot of enjoyment out of. It was almost a fisticuff by the end of it. But uh but there were some very very smart people um talking about Yeah. And well no and talking about very smart issues. I I do remember you couldn't hear very well so you didn't you weren't involved in most some of the conversation but one of the topics came up you know the debt issue where where do we stand in that um in terms of is the Fed already at the end of the line and you know focusing on more QE or do you think this can go on much longer? Well, you know, it's it's it's it's a weird thing to say because we've been talking about it for so long now, you know, and we and people have been saying for years now, it can't go on any longer. And it has. It's it's sustained and endured for longer than anybody thought I think possible. >> Mhm. >> Um but now, you know, it feels as though people are starting to take notice now. You're starting to read about it in different magazines and different publications in the news. You're starting to see the bond market act weirdly and not the way it should act and not the way it has acted. >> Mhm. >> Little signs, little tales that all is not well and um you know I I think the reaction in the dollar this year obviously it's had a really rough year so far. Um so there are all these kind of things happening that suggest that maybe we're reaching a point where it's going to matter. >> It's not guarantee it will. Of course, something could happen that could reverse the whole thing, but I don't think that if something happens, it's going to be they find a miraculous way to lower the debt. I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. So, it's always been a case of whenever it matters, it matters and it's going to matter a lot, but until that day comes, everybody knows, right, that it's a problem. Everyone knows that it's unsustainable, >> but no one's actually done anything about it just yet. So, until that day happens, it'll carry on, but it's just it's getting a little bit more fragile, I think. Do you think uh speaking of the dollar that we have already started the process of evolution from the dollar standard system? >> Uh it depends who you ask right? If you ask if you ask people in Asia they would probably say yes. You ask people in America they would definitely say no >> because to them king dollar is sacred and it it has always been sacred and so why would they conceive anything different >> and to them it's not any kind of problem right? So they don't have any they're not there's no incentive for them to to dollar denominated >> other countries not so much. There are clear incentives now to try and at least reduce reliance upon the dollar >> and and to also reduce your um your ability to be influenced by the policies of the Fed and particularly the Treasury. You know, I think what happened in 2022 when the Treasury froze those Russian central bank assets, that was a really key moment that that kind of bypassed a lot of people. They just thought it was another sanction and it didn't really register a lot of people. But that was a game changer for me. You know, I think um >> from that moment, Chinese treasury holdings accelerated down. >> Well, everybody >> central bank gold mine doubled. >> Yeah. You know, >> literally from that moment. >> So that's right. And those are those are the visible signs. But you have to think about the incentives because what you what you did in that moment was you said to everybody in the world that holds dollar reserves, which is everybody because everyone's either a net importer or an exporter of energy. >> Mhm. >> So you said to everybody, there are conditions under which we will freeze your reserves. Mhm. >> Now, I don't think Indonesia is going to invade Ukraine anytime soon, but it told Indonesia that we don't know what they might be, but >> this is no longer sacred. The our reserves are no longer sacred. So, we're now incentivized to find alternatives. >> So, you've you've started that process now and it's not something that goes back because you've done that. You there's evidence that you do it. There's no guarantee you won't do it again. And so, it becomes an issue of national security. So I think that's a really important moment in history and I to your point right if you go back and look at these various things >> you can draw a line the day before that happened a line after >> and central gold central bank gold buying has ballooned since then >> and that is a clear sign that they're thinking well less dollars more gold is probably a safe way for us to go >> right we've heard about the bricks for probably 20 years uh common currency etc. I remember the very first picture of the five leaders in holding hands up in the air. >> Uh and here we are 15 letter years later and >> not much has has come of it but they seem to be >> adjusting their focus from a common currency to a sort of multilateral clearing type understanding of >> so do do you think bricks is finally >> uh becoming a functioning alternative to the dollar? >> Yeah, look I I don't I don't think we're there yet. But these things take time and when you've got so many countries trying to negotiate and find common ground, countries with vastly different economies, vastly different levels of GDP, they're they're so different these countries, it's it's crazy. Um, but what people have to understand is the direction of travel is set, right? They're on that path >> and yeah, nothing's happened. And yeah, we might get three more summits go by when nothing gets announced, >> but the talks are happening. they're they're continuing down that road and they will continue down that road cuz it's in their best interest. >> So, um again, you know, it's another it's another stable door that there's no point closing now cuz the horse is out. >> Mhm. >> And you can sit back and say, "Well, they're never going to get it together. They're too disparate. They're too" But every time something happens along the lines of that Treasury move, >> you you give them a reason to put aside their differences and come together in a common cause, which is how do we get out from under the yoke of the dollar? So, I think anyone that says it's definitely going to happen or it definitely isn't going to happen is is kind of missing the forest for the trees. >> There are clear incentives for it to happen. It just becomes a question of can they do it if they can? What form does it take and what does it look like? But that's the way we're headed. There's no two ways about it. >> Throughout September, we're shining the spotlight on gold with a lineup of expert conversations, sharp market analysis, and practical investment guidance. To dive deeper, make sure to grab our complimentary gold investing report using the link in the description below. And Wealthy together with SCP Resource Finance will be hosting a global silver conference this October in Toronto. Eric Sprat will be delivering the keynote and it promises to be a landmark gathering for silver investors. You can find out more in the details in the description below. >> Did have you studied the Nbridge system that China is a little bit Yeah, a little bit. Um, it hasn't reached the kind of stage where I feel like I need to be all over it yet >> cuz they are starting into technical details and that type of heading that way for sure. >> Yeah. So, that's that's interesting and >> gold plays a role um a big topic here at the conference and a topic yesterday. There was uh some talk about where uh gold is heading and I think you pretty effectively sidestepped naming a price but >> Well, it's pointless. It's pointless. I just I don't I don't I I don't look at the price. I don't care about the price of gold. >> Well, tell me about that. >> Well, I I don't I've never bought gold to make money. >> I bought gold to keep money. >> Mhm. >> And so, the price is irrelevant. It's really what I can exchange it for. So, I I >> Everybody wants to know what the gold price is going to be. I I don't know. I was talking to someone earlier today and they said, "Well, you know, a year ago, did you know that the gold price is going to be 3500?" I said, "Yeah, but I didn't know it was going to be now. Mhm. >> I feel very confident it's going to keep going higher because of the nature of the world we live in. >> But I'm not looking at 5,000 is a target where I'm going to sell it. >> Mhm. >> I'm going to exchange it for a house somewhere that I want to buy when I realize that those answers are gold and rather own the house. >> So I I I think the price I understand why people fixate on it. >> But I think it's a bit of a red herring if you own gold for the reasons if it's a trading vehicle and the price is everything. Yeah, >> but I just feel like gold is is so much more than a trading. If you want to trade stuff, there's a gajillion things you can trade. >> Options and shares and bonds and ETFs and you trade in anything. >> Why do you feel the need to trade gold? >> And the point I made in my presentation this morning is, you know, gold isn't something you buy, it's something you own. >> Because if you talk of it in terms of buying, there's an implicit sell there. If you talk in terms of owning it, it's just a case of I want to accumulate this and let it sit there quietly and protect my purchasing power. at some point in time I'll exchange it for someone else and I can see a time where I own zero gold but right now I own a lot of gold. >> That was going to be my next question. What would be the circumstance where gold would no longer be a mandatory portfolio asset? >> It's you know it's like um that famous uh Justice Potter Stewart judgment about pornography. I can't describe it but I know it when I see it. So >> let me give you an example. If for example um the S&P goes down 80%. And my gold goes down 20%. Cuz there's margin calls and people are liquidating selling gold. And the knee-jerk reaction of most people will be well I thought gold was going to go up in times of crisis. But I might look at that gold down 20% with the S&P down 80% and realize, you know what, >> today I can buy three times as many units of the S&P with my gold as I could yesterday. >> And with the S&P down here, I'd rather own the shares now. So, I'll exchange my gold for the shares in the S&P. >> The price of the gold is irrelevant. It's what can I exchange it for? And we saw that in 2008. A perfect example when when 2008 hit, >> gold fell like 25% pretty quickly. Everyone was like, "Oh my god, we the S&P was down 66." Mhm. >> So you could exchange gold first. >> It did, but at that point in time, >> you could exchange your gold for twice the S&P that you could before >> the fall happened. So for me, it's a relative game. It's not about the price. It's it's what I can exchange it for. And so in terms of when I would let go of it, when I see something, anything, it's not like I'm looking for one specific thing, but it's a portfolio asset that if I see something that I would rather own more, I won't think twice about letting go the gold. >> So there are decades I maintain where it makes sense to own gold and there are decades when it doesn't. So in 1980, interest rates were high and falling. Inflation was high and falling. GDP was strong, savings were high. productivity was strong. >> Why would you own gold? So, I'm setting that up to ask you what what was your view of gold in 1980? Do you >> I wasn't really I wasn't really paying attention. I I you know, I started work in ' 85, so I wasn't really paying attention, but I did, you know, it's interesting you say that, Trey, because the very first presentation I ever gave, which would have been in 201 >> Mhm. 10 I think I put a chart together um that showed uh making one decision a decade over 40 years. >> Mhm. >> And those decisions were you you bought gold in 1970. >> Mhm. >> Cuz you're worried about inflation. You held it to 1980 when interest rates got high. >> Then you sold it. >> Bought a bond. >> No, you bought Japanese equities cuz that was the next big thing. Right. You bought Japanese equities in 1980 cuz they were the next big thing. You held them. >> Gets to 1990. Markets turned over. You get rid of them. You buy tech stocks cuz they were the next big thing. >> Right. >> And you get to 2000, you flip it back into gold again. >> Mhm. >> And I think I forget the exact numbers. I think someone will probably fact check me on this, but making four decisions in 40 years, one decision a decade, and you were up 200x. >> Mhm. >> And all you did was buy and sit for a decade and do nothing else. And you know the presentation I gave this morning um was along similar lines to that is is that you know this this period we've just been through these last 40 years you had every tailwind and I went through the markets bond markets equity markets housing everything and at the end of it I said to everybody in the room I just said you give me a show of hands given what I've just shown you and you've all lived it >> but it might have felt like this should it not was it but should it have been easy to make money >> for the last 40 years and Just about every hand in the room went up. >> Mhm. >> Because it should have been. Making money was the default position if you just were involved and didn't get too cute and didn't, you know, worry too much about it. >> Mhm. >> And the point I was trying to make is the next 40 years are probably not going to be that way. It's not going to be tailwind all the way. It's probably going to be a few headwinds. >> Mhm. Do you think the Fed is going to end up monetizing the US debt or do you think it's going to fail or how are we going to get out of the the outstanding debt issue? How do we resolve? >> Look, I do I think they're going to monetize the debt. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know we're heading that way. >> That's the track we're on. >> And whether something happens before they get to the the the point of maximum pain, I don't know. It's possible. >> Um, you know, you can't ascribe a 0% chance of that happening. >> Mh. But right now, that's the path we're on. Um, >> fortunately, I guess for them, not so much for us. Everyone else on the same path. >> So, again, you know, it's like at what point does it actually matter? >> Does it matter the day before they do it? Does everybody suddenly panic or do we see a slow move for the exits and people saying, you know, we're getting close now. We need to get out of dollar assets. You'll you'll see that if you are immersed enough in markets to see the flows. Um, for the vast majority of people who are out there trading their own portfolio and stuff, they probably won't see that stuff happening until it's too late, uh, even though the signs were there all along, it's it's um, you know, you you you keep dancing until the flames are licking at your ankles and then you leave. >> Mhm. >> I would suggest that it maybe makes sense to get out before the flames are licking at your ankles, but >> And the old frog that's still in the >> Yeah, exactly. um >> you know they did they did an experiment with that once and it didn't work at all but um yeah it's who knows right but we can all see the trajectory we're on >> it's not good >> and there's not anything that I can see particularly now that the this bill has passed >> um that is going to change things in fact it's going to accelerate them so the question is at what point does it matter to people that own dollars and again coming back to what we spoke about at the beginning of this conversation there are signs that it is starting to matter in little places here and there >> and I think those are telltale signs that people should be paying attention to. >> You mentioned why you own gold which is basically savings um and to perfect protect purchasing power. Are you interested in gold equities? >> Um I am but I I'm I mean I'm too busy to focus on them >> right now. I'm just too busy and they require a lot of focus. That's true. They really do. >> You don't check out. You got to be >> so and I may be getting too personal here but what do you consider or what is your you know what's what's a good position in terms of percentage of gold in your portfolio do you >> well I don't think you have any opinion people you know for me I'm very happy owning like 60% in gold >> very happy at times I'll have 20 >> um but I'm very happy owning 60% gold and and a bunch of short-term cash instruments and some private loans that I've got with businesses that I know inside and out with people that I trust and I know >> that I'm going to get that money back. >> Um I I I don't want to complicate any more than that, you know, because I think you don't need to. >> And the gold that I've bought to preserve my purchasing power and I've accumulated over the years has done that and more. >> Um and I've not had to worry about it. I've not had to, you know, sit up when the markets have fallen out of bed and co and all those things. I've just not had to worry about those. I'm interested and I pay attention, but I haven't woken up in the middle of the night to stay up all night trying to get out of positions, which I'm so grateful to not have to do. >> Right. So, it's not really your primary business or model, but uh outside your gold with respect to viewers and the dangers in the general market over the next couple of years, are there other areas you would encourage people to focus on? >> Well, what what I've been trying to do um for the last couple of years, and I did it again with my presentation here, >> Mhm. is um is try and get people to just think a differently and think about different things and and I think >> you know we're here there are well there are hundred people here who who will give you stock tips right more >> there are people who will give you stock tips even if you don't want to you're running down the hall like that and they shout stock tips at you which is which is great and a lot of people love that >> but because there are so many people that will do that >> I don't see the point of me adding to that noise right But if I can talk to you about about how you think about investing >> about last year I did a presentation called who are you which was really I was talking to people about taking a look in the mirror and do you know what you are? Are you an investor or are you a speculator and if you are a speculator do you conduct your trading the right way or do you think of yourself as an investor? Because if you think you're an investor but you're really a speculator you're in trouble and vice versa. So let's first get back to basics. Understand who you are and what your goals are. >> Today I talked about um you know uh change and the fact that the last 40 years have been an endless sea of tailwinds. >> Mh. >> And I asked people in the room to for a show of hands as to whether who people thought the world had changed since 2020. Just about every hand in the room went up. >> And so you've got a room full of people that acknowledge the world has changed. And then later on I got them to acknowledge that they've had this incredibly um serendipitous period of time to invest in that they all should have made money in. But those two things >> it doesn't sound like a good combo. >> Well, it it it doesn't unless you think about it and you and you actually don't wait to get smacked over the head by a 4x2. >> Mhm. >> But you sit there and you go, "Actually, the world has changed. I've had a great run. >> What's changed? What does that mean for my portfolio? What does that mean for the way I think about investing my capital? And do I need to change? >> And for me, having those conversations and letting people start to ask those questions of themselves and go and think about, okay, do I need to do anything here? >> Do I need to change the way I think about investing is way more useful to people than, you know, you should buy yourself some of this. It's going to go up. >> I just because I don't know about the future. Mhm. >> So any stock tip I give anybody is me looking at something and thinking, you know, I think there's a pretty good chance this is going to do okay. I don't know anything about it, but I do know that taking the time to think about the way you think is an incredibly important thing to do. >> So I'd rather spend my time talking about things I know and sharing things with people that I know are going to have some use to them >> than some stock tip that I may or may not get right and they may or may not make money out of. >> Very, very useful advice. Well, we'll see. >> Very useful. Well, Grant, thank you very much. I know you have to catch a plane. Literally, your bag's in the hall. It is. >> Thanks for stopping by and we look forward to checking in with you in 6 months or so. >> That's good to see you, buddy. It's been long. >> Excellent. Thank you very much, Grant. >> You're welcome. >> If you have any questions about how to navigate the current environment, Wealthon can help connect you with a vetted advisor to get a free portfolio review. Just click the link in the description below or head to wealthon.com/free. There's no obligation and it will just take a few minutes of your time. Again, that's wealthy.com/free. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you again next time. [Music]
Grant Williams: Gold’s Real Role & Why the Dollar’s Future Is at Risk
Summary
Transcript
I've never bought gold to make money. I bought gold to keep money. >> And so the price is irrelevant. It's really what I can exchange it for. I feel very confident it's going to keep going higher because of the nature of the world we live in. >> But I'm not looking at 5,000 is the target where I'm going to sell it. Right now I own a lot of gold. If you're looking for a simple, secure way to invest in physical gold and silver, check out Hardass Assets Alliance at hardassetsalliance.com. [Music] >> Hi, my name is Trey Reich and back in July I had a very interesting conversation with Grant Williams at the Rick Rule Natural Resources Symposium down in Boca Raton. Grant is the publisher of the very interesting report, Things That Make You Go, Hm, which I've read for years. And our conversation really makes sense today with gold trading just under $3,800 bucks an ounce because back then it was trading at just under $3,400 an ounce. And Grant was making the point that gold is the furthest thing from a trade. But at least in his life and I think for most investors especially as the global economy moves away from the dollar standard system really a very effective long-term protector of wealth and buying power. So I thought we'd return to our interview with Grant to bring people up to date on his thoughts about gold's long-term role in an investment portfolio. And for those who are interested in Wealthon's gold report, please go to wealthon.com/gold. Let's take a look. We're here today with Grant Williams, who is the author of the things that make me go hm for 20 years. >> Not quite, but jeez, must be Yeah. 16. >> 16 years. And I uh when I had a big soft dollar account, I used to be a paid subscriber, but now I'm just uh you know, now that I no longer have the soft dollars, I'm just a fan. >> Um and I I wanted to start by asking you, is this your first Rick Rule conference? >> God, no. No. I've been I've been doing this for a number of years. I was doing it back in Vancouver. >> Uhhuh. So what, 20? >> No, no, no, no, no, no. Uh yeah, maybe close to 10, actually. >> Yeah, maybe close to 10. I loved it in Vancouver, I must admit. I got nothing against Florida. Vancouver in July is just >> fantastic. So, I was I was bummed when it moved down here, but now I've been here a few years. I actually really enjoy coming down here, too. >> Right. And how did you meet Rick? And what's your relationship? >> Uh, do you know what? I honestly can't remember. I got introduced to Rick by mutual friends of ours a long time ago. And um, >> you know, he's just the prince of a human being, right? And he's just one of those people that you meet him and he's just he's just a fantastic guy. So, I I love Rick and Bonnie. They're just they're just two of my favorite people in the world. So whenever he asks me to come speak, I'm I'm there. >> I asked my bosses and boss's bosses who we met last night at dinner why they were here and they go to support Rick. >> So everybody's here >> to support Rick. Exactly. Right. >> And uh >> I know that for a fact he really enjoys these conferences more than anything that he does. He loves to people and getting to meet them and pressing the flesh and >> helping people. So the whole thing is is fun to be a part of. >> Yeah. So you were on a panel yesterday which I got >> a lot of a lot of enjoyment out of. It was almost a fisticuff by the end of it. But uh but there were some very very smart people um talking about Yeah. And well no and talking about very smart issues. I I do remember you couldn't hear very well so you didn't you weren't involved in most some of the conversation but one of the topics came up you know the debt issue where where do we stand in that um in terms of is the Fed already at the end of the line and you know focusing on more QE or do you think this can go on much longer? Well, you know, it's it's it's it's a weird thing to say because we've been talking about it for so long now, you know, and we and people have been saying for years now, it can't go on any longer. And it has. It's it's sustained and endured for longer than anybody thought I think possible. >> Mhm. >> Um but now, you know, it feels as though people are starting to take notice now. You're starting to read about it in different magazines and different publications in the news. You're starting to see the bond market act weirdly and not the way it should act and not the way it has acted. >> Mhm. >> Little signs, little tales that all is not well and um you know I I think the reaction in the dollar this year obviously it's had a really rough year so far. Um so there are all these kind of things happening that suggest that maybe we're reaching a point where it's going to matter. >> It's not guarantee it will. Of course, something could happen that could reverse the whole thing, but I don't think that if something happens, it's going to be they find a miraculous way to lower the debt. I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. So, it's always been a case of whenever it matters, it matters and it's going to matter a lot, but until that day comes, everybody knows, right, that it's a problem. Everyone knows that it's unsustainable, >> but no one's actually done anything about it just yet. So, until that day happens, it'll carry on, but it's just it's getting a little bit more fragile, I think. Do you think uh speaking of the dollar that we have already started the process of evolution from the dollar standard system? >> Uh it depends who you ask right? If you ask if you ask people in Asia they would probably say yes. You ask people in America they would definitely say no >> because to them king dollar is sacred and it it has always been sacred and so why would they conceive anything different >> and to them it's not any kind of problem right? So they don't have any they're not there's no incentive for them to to dollar denominated >> other countries not so much. There are clear incentives now to try and at least reduce reliance upon the dollar >> and and to also reduce your um your ability to be influenced by the policies of the Fed and particularly the Treasury. You know, I think what happened in 2022 when the Treasury froze those Russian central bank assets, that was a really key moment that that kind of bypassed a lot of people. They just thought it was another sanction and it didn't really register a lot of people. But that was a game changer for me. You know, I think um >> from that moment, Chinese treasury holdings accelerated down. >> Well, everybody >> central bank gold mine doubled. >> Yeah. You know, >> literally from that moment. >> So that's right. And those are those are the visible signs. But you have to think about the incentives because what you what you did in that moment was you said to everybody in the world that holds dollar reserves, which is everybody because everyone's either a net importer or an exporter of energy. >> Mhm. >> So you said to everybody, there are conditions under which we will freeze your reserves. Mhm. >> Now, I don't think Indonesia is going to invade Ukraine anytime soon, but it told Indonesia that we don't know what they might be, but >> this is no longer sacred. The our reserves are no longer sacred. So, we're now incentivized to find alternatives. >> So, you've you've started that process now and it's not something that goes back because you've done that. You there's evidence that you do it. There's no guarantee you won't do it again. And so, it becomes an issue of national security. So I think that's a really important moment in history and I to your point right if you go back and look at these various things >> you can draw a line the day before that happened a line after >> and central gold central bank gold buying has ballooned since then >> and that is a clear sign that they're thinking well less dollars more gold is probably a safe way for us to go >> right we've heard about the bricks for probably 20 years uh common currency etc. I remember the very first picture of the five leaders in holding hands up in the air. >> Uh and here we are 15 letter years later and >> not much has has come of it but they seem to be >> adjusting their focus from a common currency to a sort of multilateral clearing type understanding of >> so do do you think bricks is finally >> uh becoming a functioning alternative to the dollar? >> Yeah, look I I don't I don't think we're there yet. But these things take time and when you've got so many countries trying to negotiate and find common ground, countries with vastly different economies, vastly different levels of GDP, they're they're so different these countries, it's it's crazy. Um, but what people have to understand is the direction of travel is set, right? They're on that path >> and yeah, nothing's happened. And yeah, we might get three more summits go by when nothing gets announced, >> but the talks are happening. they're they're continuing down that road and they will continue down that road cuz it's in their best interest. >> So, um again, you know, it's another it's another stable door that there's no point closing now cuz the horse is out. >> Mhm. >> And you can sit back and say, "Well, they're never going to get it together. They're too disparate. They're too" But every time something happens along the lines of that Treasury move, >> you you give them a reason to put aside their differences and come together in a common cause, which is how do we get out from under the yoke of the dollar? So, I think anyone that says it's definitely going to happen or it definitely isn't going to happen is is kind of missing the forest for the trees. >> There are clear incentives for it to happen. It just becomes a question of can they do it if they can? What form does it take and what does it look like? But that's the way we're headed. There's no two ways about it. >> Throughout September, we're shining the spotlight on gold with a lineup of expert conversations, sharp market analysis, and practical investment guidance. To dive deeper, make sure to grab our complimentary gold investing report using the link in the description below. And Wealthy together with SCP Resource Finance will be hosting a global silver conference this October in Toronto. Eric Sprat will be delivering the keynote and it promises to be a landmark gathering for silver investors. You can find out more in the details in the description below. >> Did have you studied the Nbridge system that China is a little bit Yeah, a little bit. Um, it hasn't reached the kind of stage where I feel like I need to be all over it yet >> cuz they are starting into technical details and that type of heading that way for sure. >> Yeah. So, that's that's interesting and >> gold plays a role um a big topic here at the conference and a topic yesterday. There was uh some talk about where uh gold is heading and I think you pretty effectively sidestepped naming a price but >> Well, it's pointless. It's pointless. I just I don't I don't I I don't look at the price. I don't care about the price of gold. >> Well, tell me about that. >> Well, I I don't I've never bought gold to make money. >> I bought gold to keep money. >> Mhm. >> And so, the price is irrelevant. It's really what I can exchange it for. So, I I >> Everybody wants to know what the gold price is going to be. I I don't know. I was talking to someone earlier today and they said, "Well, you know, a year ago, did you know that the gold price is going to be 3500?" I said, "Yeah, but I didn't know it was going to be now. Mhm. >> I feel very confident it's going to keep going higher because of the nature of the world we live in. >> But I'm not looking at 5,000 is a target where I'm going to sell it. >> Mhm. >> I'm going to exchange it for a house somewhere that I want to buy when I realize that those answers are gold and rather own the house. >> So I I I think the price I understand why people fixate on it. >> But I think it's a bit of a red herring if you own gold for the reasons if it's a trading vehicle and the price is everything. Yeah, >> but I just feel like gold is is so much more than a trading. If you want to trade stuff, there's a gajillion things you can trade. >> Options and shares and bonds and ETFs and you trade in anything. >> Why do you feel the need to trade gold? >> And the point I made in my presentation this morning is, you know, gold isn't something you buy, it's something you own. >> Because if you talk of it in terms of buying, there's an implicit sell there. If you talk in terms of owning it, it's just a case of I want to accumulate this and let it sit there quietly and protect my purchasing power. at some point in time I'll exchange it for someone else and I can see a time where I own zero gold but right now I own a lot of gold. >> That was going to be my next question. What would be the circumstance where gold would no longer be a mandatory portfolio asset? >> It's you know it's like um that famous uh Justice Potter Stewart judgment about pornography. I can't describe it but I know it when I see it. So >> let me give you an example. If for example um the S&P goes down 80%. And my gold goes down 20%. Cuz there's margin calls and people are liquidating selling gold. And the knee-jerk reaction of most people will be well I thought gold was going to go up in times of crisis. But I might look at that gold down 20% with the S&P down 80% and realize, you know what, >> today I can buy three times as many units of the S&P with my gold as I could yesterday. >> And with the S&P down here, I'd rather own the shares now. So, I'll exchange my gold for the shares in the S&P. >> The price of the gold is irrelevant. It's what can I exchange it for? And we saw that in 2008. A perfect example when when 2008 hit, >> gold fell like 25% pretty quickly. Everyone was like, "Oh my god, we the S&P was down 66." Mhm. >> So you could exchange gold first. >> It did, but at that point in time, >> you could exchange your gold for twice the S&P that you could before >> the fall happened. So for me, it's a relative game. It's not about the price. It's it's what I can exchange it for. And so in terms of when I would let go of it, when I see something, anything, it's not like I'm looking for one specific thing, but it's a portfolio asset that if I see something that I would rather own more, I won't think twice about letting go the gold. >> So there are decades I maintain where it makes sense to own gold and there are decades when it doesn't. So in 1980, interest rates were high and falling. Inflation was high and falling. GDP was strong, savings were high. productivity was strong. >> Why would you own gold? So, I'm setting that up to ask you what what was your view of gold in 1980? Do you >> I wasn't really I wasn't really paying attention. I I you know, I started work in ' 85, so I wasn't really paying attention, but I did, you know, it's interesting you say that, Trey, because the very first presentation I ever gave, which would have been in 201 >> Mhm. 10 I think I put a chart together um that showed uh making one decision a decade over 40 years. >> Mhm. >> And those decisions were you you bought gold in 1970. >> Mhm. >> Cuz you're worried about inflation. You held it to 1980 when interest rates got high. >> Then you sold it. >> Bought a bond. >> No, you bought Japanese equities cuz that was the next big thing. Right. You bought Japanese equities in 1980 cuz they were the next big thing. You held them. >> Gets to 1990. Markets turned over. You get rid of them. You buy tech stocks cuz they were the next big thing. >> Right. >> And you get to 2000, you flip it back into gold again. >> Mhm. >> And I think I forget the exact numbers. I think someone will probably fact check me on this, but making four decisions in 40 years, one decision a decade, and you were up 200x. >> Mhm. >> And all you did was buy and sit for a decade and do nothing else. And you know the presentation I gave this morning um was along similar lines to that is is that you know this this period we've just been through these last 40 years you had every tailwind and I went through the markets bond markets equity markets housing everything and at the end of it I said to everybody in the room I just said you give me a show of hands given what I've just shown you and you've all lived it >> but it might have felt like this should it not was it but should it have been easy to make money >> for the last 40 years and Just about every hand in the room went up. >> Mhm. >> Because it should have been. Making money was the default position if you just were involved and didn't get too cute and didn't, you know, worry too much about it. >> Mhm. >> And the point I was trying to make is the next 40 years are probably not going to be that way. It's not going to be tailwind all the way. It's probably going to be a few headwinds. >> Mhm. Do you think the Fed is going to end up monetizing the US debt or do you think it's going to fail or how are we going to get out of the the outstanding debt issue? How do we resolve? >> Look, I do I think they're going to monetize the debt. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know we're heading that way. >> That's the track we're on. >> And whether something happens before they get to the the the point of maximum pain, I don't know. It's possible. >> Um, you know, you can't ascribe a 0% chance of that happening. >> Mh. But right now, that's the path we're on. Um, >> fortunately, I guess for them, not so much for us. Everyone else on the same path. >> So, again, you know, it's like at what point does it actually matter? >> Does it matter the day before they do it? Does everybody suddenly panic or do we see a slow move for the exits and people saying, you know, we're getting close now. We need to get out of dollar assets. You'll you'll see that if you are immersed enough in markets to see the flows. Um, for the vast majority of people who are out there trading their own portfolio and stuff, they probably won't see that stuff happening until it's too late, uh, even though the signs were there all along, it's it's um, you know, you you you keep dancing until the flames are licking at your ankles and then you leave. >> Mhm. >> I would suggest that it maybe makes sense to get out before the flames are licking at your ankles, but >> And the old frog that's still in the >> Yeah, exactly. um >> you know they did they did an experiment with that once and it didn't work at all but um yeah it's who knows right but we can all see the trajectory we're on >> it's not good >> and there's not anything that I can see particularly now that the this bill has passed >> um that is going to change things in fact it's going to accelerate them so the question is at what point does it matter to people that own dollars and again coming back to what we spoke about at the beginning of this conversation there are signs that it is starting to matter in little places here and there >> and I think those are telltale signs that people should be paying attention to. >> You mentioned why you own gold which is basically savings um and to perfect protect purchasing power. Are you interested in gold equities? >> Um I am but I I'm I mean I'm too busy to focus on them >> right now. I'm just too busy and they require a lot of focus. That's true. They really do. >> You don't check out. You got to be >> so and I may be getting too personal here but what do you consider or what is your you know what's what's a good position in terms of percentage of gold in your portfolio do you >> well I don't think you have any opinion people you know for me I'm very happy owning like 60% in gold >> very happy at times I'll have 20 >> um but I'm very happy owning 60% gold and and a bunch of short-term cash instruments and some private loans that I've got with businesses that I know inside and out with people that I trust and I know >> that I'm going to get that money back. >> Um I I I don't want to complicate any more than that, you know, because I think you don't need to. >> And the gold that I've bought to preserve my purchasing power and I've accumulated over the years has done that and more. >> Um and I've not had to worry about it. I've not had to, you know, sit up when the markets have fallen out of bed and co and all those things. I've just not had to worry about those. I'm interested and I pay attention, but I haven't woken up in the middle of the night to stay up all night trying to get out of positions, which I'm so grateful to not have to do. >> Right. So, it's not really your primary business or model, but uh outside your gold with respect to viewers and the dangers in the general market over the next couple of years, are there other areas you would encourage people to focus on? >> Well, what what I've been trying to do um for the last couple of years, and I did it again with my presentation here, >> Mhm. is um is try and get people to just think a differently and think about different things and and I think >> you know we're here there are well there are hundred people here who who will give you stock tips right more >> there are people who will give you stock tips even if you don't want to you're running down the hall like that and they shout stock tips at you which is which is great and a lot of people love that >> but because there are so many people that will do that >> I don't see the point of me adding to that noise right But if I can talk to you about about how you think about investing >> about last year I did a presentation called who are you which was really I was talking to people about taking a look in the mirror and do you know what you are? Are you an investor or are you a speculator and if you are a speculator do you conduct your trading the right way or do you think of yourself as an investor? Because if you think you're an investor but you're really a speculator you're in trouble and vice versa. So let's first get back to basics. Understand who you are and what your goals are. >> Today I talked about um you know uh change and the fact that the last 40 years have been an endless sea of tailwinds. >> Mh. >> And I asked people in the room to for a show of hands as to whether who people thought the world had changed since 2020. Just about every hand in the room went up. >> And so you've got a room full of people that acknowledge the world has changed. And then later on I got them to acknowledge that they've had this incredibly um serendipitous period of time to invest in that they all should have made money in. But those two things >> it doesn't sound like a good combo. >> Well, it it it doesn't unless you think about it and you and you actually don't wait to get smacked over the head by a 4x2. >> Mhm. >> But you sit there and you go, "Actually, the world has changed. I've had a great run. >> What's changed? What does that mean for my portfolio? What does that mean for the way I think about investing my capital? And do I need to change? >> And for me, having those conversations and letting people start to ask those questions of themselves and go and think about, okay, do I need to do anything here? >> Do I need to change the way I think about investing is way more useful to people than, you know, you should buy yourself some of this. It's going to go up. >> I just because I don't know about the future. Mhm. >> So any stock tip I give anybody is me looking at something and thinking, you know, I think there's a pretty good chance this is going to do okay. I don't know anything about it, but I do know that taking the time to think about the way you think is an incredibly important thing to do. >> So I'd rather spend my time talking about things I know and sharing things with people that I know are going to have some use to them >> than some stock tip that I may or may not get right and they may or may not make money out of. >> Very, very useful advice. Well, we'll see. >> Very useful. Well, Grant, thank you very much. I know you have to catch a plane. Literally, your bag's in the hall. It is. >> Thanks for stopping by and we look forward to checking in with you in 6 months or so. >> That's good to see you, buddy. It's been long. >> Excellent. Thank you very much, Grant. >> You're welcome. >> If you have any questions about how to navigate the current environment, Wealthon can help connect you with a vetted advisor to get a free portfolio review. Just click the link in the description below or head to wealthon.com/free. There's no obligation and it will just take a few minutes of your time. Again, that's wealthy.com/free. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you again next time. [Music]