Touring Texas in a Ford Expedition King Ranch & Ferrari's Electric Plans | Bloomberg Hot Pursuit!
Summary
Automotive Trends: The podcast discusses the popularity of the Ford Expedition King Ranch in Texas, highlighting its distinctive styling and the cultural significance of the King Ranch brand.
Market Insights: There is a growing trend of rising vehicle prices, with the average car price in the U.S. now over $50,000, and financing costs averaging 9-10%.
Ride-Sharing Innovations: Whimo's driverless cars are gaining traction in cities like Austin, offering a preferred alternative to Uber for many users due to privacy and convenience.
Motorsports Investments: Automakers are heavily investing in motorsports, with Formula 1 being the most lucrative, attracting significant sponsorship and viewership.
Ferrari's Strategy: Ferrari is focusing on maintaining exclusivity with its Icona series and is planning to introduce more electric vehicles, while also considering the reintroduction of manual transmissions.
Technological Evolution: The discussion highlights the balance between digital and physical interfaces in vehicles, with Ferrari emphasizing the importance of tactile controls for enhanced driving engagement.
Transcript
[Music] Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. I'm Hannah Elliot. >> And I'm Matt Miller. And this is Hot Pursuit. Coming up today, cornering the ride share market. Why Whimo may have an advantage over Uber. >> Plus, Formula 1 is front and center in the racing world. But is there room for others? How big time automakers are betting on it? >> And Ferrari CEO Benadetto Vignia joins us. We'll talk about the company's first allect electric vehicle and the possibility that they go back to gated shifters in new cars. Thanks for joining us this week on Hot Pursuit. Hannah, I want to before we get to anything, ask about Texas cuz you were just down there. I see you're wearing a cowboy hat right now and I'm guessing you're also you have that gigantic belt buckle on you. >> I've still got the truck on. I basically haven't taken it off for a week, which is I don't know what that means about me or the truckle, but I'm I'm going with it. Um I'm actually still in Texas. I've been here a week. I've got a couple more days. I'm in Dallas right now. And we did try to do this episode from the back of the Ford Expedition King Ranch that I've been driving around all week. Got a little hot, so we had to reschedule. So that's we're I'm doing it from the confines of a climate controlled hotel room in downtown Dallas right now. But I have to say this Ford Expedition King Ranch is kind of the perfect vehicle to be driving all around Texas this week. It's been a lot of fun. >> It is gigantic. I love, you know, the King Ranch edition of the F-150 or or the Superduty trucks because it's got that extra flare. Uh I don't know if a cowboy would use that term, but it's got that, you know, you extra engraving. Yeah, the extra stitching like the swagger for sure. Is the King Ranch Expedition as cool as the King Ranch pickup truck? I have to say the King Expedition, it's not as cool because personally I love trucks, but it's pretty close. Um, Matt, you'll love it. It's a body on frame, which I know is important to you. True. It's It's not a V8. Uh, so sorry about that. It's a twin turbo V6 with EcoBoost. Um, but it does have all of that distinctive styling that the truck has, like bronze accents on the grill, the wheels, the body. Um, those wheels are 22-in wheels with like diamond cut machined aluminum detailing. And then, of course, it has all of the King Ranch badging, which is that squiggly snake line inside and outside. I mean, on the seats, um on the on the uh tread plates, on the um floor mats, it's kind of everywhere. So, if you are a fan of King Ranch, and the King Ranch is a real place, by the way, you'll probably like the Expedition uh SUV as well. >> It it is I think it's like the biggest ranch in America, right? It's >> Yes. Yes. The King Ranch. It's in South Texas. Um, I think it was incorporated in about 1853 and of course it's known for its beef cattle herd, but it also is a really prominent breeder of quarter horses. I did a little research on it because it is such a big deal. Um, they had a triple crown winner back in the 40s and it is a big brand in Texas. In fact, I went I was in Austin um a few days ago and King Ranch has a store on South Congress basically close to Hermes doing, you know, leather wear work and stuff. So, it's kind of a big deal. It's definitely a thing down here. >> Um you know, it is so gigantic and the Expedition is so gigantic as well. It's the biggest >> um SUV that that Ford makes and it's the same size as a Tahoe or a Suburban if you get the the Max version. >> I wonder if Ford doesn't reintroduce at some point a big inch V8 >> to go into that to that SUV because they do have Godzilla, right? They have the 7.3 L V8 that goes into the trucks and the Superduties and they did have a fantastic 6.2 2 liter V8 in the in the first generation Raptor. Um that I'm sure they got rid of due to cafe standards and and other regulatory issues, but those regulations are now toothless in the era of of Donald Trump. So they could bring it back. >> I think they could and maybe they even should. I will say down here in Texas where everything is bigger, people seem to love the Expeditions. I'm seeing them all over. Um, they especially love the tail pipes that are like three times the normal size. I've been noticing a lot of those on the backs of doulies. Um, so it seems like that would be very welcome here in the great state of Texas. Um, I should say, you know, about that size thing, the turning radius on the King Ranch Expedition uh is not good and parking is a challenge. Um, it's not very fun. Yeah. Yeah, it is. When you're trying to get in and out of like hotel valet and restaurant valet, it is a challenge. Um there's definitely a blind spot when you're trying to change lanes. You know, I I kind of cringe when I have to change lanes on, you know, going 85 on the freeways down here. >> It's been It really You feel it. I mean, you really feel it. It feels like you're driving an elephant. I mean, that's just the truth. Not that it's a bad thing, but it's certainly not a nimble uh lane changing car. I'd say that >> I'm sure that the twin turbo V6 is fast enough like it has enough power. >> Yeah. >> Sure. It's Yeah. >> And when And when they And when they came out with that motor in the second gen um Raptor, you know, higher horsepower, I think, and torque numbers than than the V8, but it's just everyone always asked me, "Why do I care?" And to me, there's a a more fuller, warmer feeling when you're driving uh the bigger V8 than than there is when you're driving a um you know, a smaller, more compact V6 that's got turbochargers in order to get better gas mileage. I mean, one or two miles per gallon better, but >> it's it's not worth the trade-off to me. >> Yeah, I I get it and that's totally valid. Um, this does not have an engine that's going to warm your heart. There's no like there's no connection. You don't you don't feel it. It It's not It's not a gutsy engine at all. I think there might be just under 450 horsepower. A And honestly, like I don't think anyone buys it for the power. They really I don't I just don't see it. Um, so you're you're probably right on that. It'd be better to get something smaller with a bigger engine, I bet. >> Um, the other thing is Yeah. >> And this is not specific to Ford, but this is an expensive truck, right? >> Oh, yeah. I was going to say >> the starting cost alone is like 70 grand and then you can easily option it out to 90. Um, >> easily, >> but I I noticed today that or the last couple of days we got data from Cox Automotive. So, the average car price in America is now over $50,000. >> That is wild to me. I mean, I remember when it used to be sort of low30s and now it does seem like everything's more expensive and that certainly does include new cars, too, you know. >> Yeah. It's mad. It's maddening. I mean, the >> the financing costs now are 9 10% on average. The monthly payment on average in America is 750 bucks a month and one in five people are paying >> more than $1,000 a month on a car payment. >> That's wild. Yeah, that's wild. And I also know TR obviously this we're talking about an SUV but the truck ver the King the F-150 um King Ranch again this is the bestselling vehicle in America period uh for more than four decades the Ford F-150 and a lot of those trucks are going for six easy six figures because and you see it down here people use them for work. They're in them all day driving. It's a rolling office. >> Yeah. No, I mean it's a fantastic vehicle and if you're especially if you're in a big place with big parking spots then then it makes all the sense because you can fit your whole family in it. You can fit all the stuff that you need in it. Um I wonder if the F-S series so I know it's the bestselling name plate >> in America, but that includes F-150, F250, F350, the whole gamut. And I wonder if uh General Motors actually sells more pickup trucks if you combine uh the GM um s the Chevy Silverado and the GMC uh Sienna because you know >> we should ask >> they're considered different and >> yes >> it seems like an almost unfair comparison. Is that >> Sure. I mean that would be interesting. I again my perception is very heavily skewed right now because I'm in Texas and Texas trucks are such a thing and I'm I'm just seeing so many Fords. So my perception is skewed, but I think that's a great question. We should find out actually. >> Yeah. And just see >> it it I think uh I'm pretty sure that if you total up all of GM's full-size pickup trucks, >> you're getting close to 900,000. And if you total up all the F series, it's like 750. So >> interesting. >> So, but I know they love that, you know, bestselling name plate in America. Hey, >> one of the cool things that I've done in Texas, and I've only been able to do it in Texas just cuz I don't get to spend enough time in California, is I rode in a driverless car in Austin >> in a Whimo. Like, I ordered it um with the app and it was >> I thought very cool. You wrote a story about Whimo versus Uber for Bloomberg. What What was the story? >> Yes. Well, the story was it was simply set out to be, hey, I'm a car person. I like cars. I own cars. How will I feel about being in a driverless vehicle that is also electric? And you know, what's that like? That was the whole very simple premise. And I I went into it sort of, you know, whatever, open to whatever. I didn't have any expectations. Um, my first ride, the wait for the Whimo was 26 minutes, which was unexpected. And, you know, I had to have my husband drop me off within range of the Whimo because it it's not within range of our house in Hollywood. So, it kind of started out slow, but I have to say by the end of the week, I can really see a use case for Whimos in cities like Austin, just like you said, in LA. I hope they come to New York. They're train they're training right now. They're training the cars in New York. Um, there really is a use case for it for doing things like commuting, which no car person likes commuting, you know, and it was a very good experience besides that 26- minute way. I started just scheduling them a little bit better and I really liked it. And everybody I I have spoken with who has ridden in a Whimo is also a big fan. They're they're converted. >> Yeah. Because you don't have to have someone else in the car. For example, when I order an Uber, I always it it gives you preferences. How do you want the temperature and would you like >> Yes. >> Um the would you like a quiet ride? You know, I don't necessarily want to have a conversation. I will with the driver, but I definitely don't want to hear someone else's music usually. >> No. And um even when I choose quiet, uh they're still pumping out whatever jams they're interested in or on the phone, you know, with their uh wife or whatever, you know, and it's it's just never the way I want it. Whereas I imagine um you wouldn't have ever have those kind of problems in a Whimo. >> No. No. And honestly, I thought the Uber the Whimo would be a little bit hesitating and faltering and not um confident in its driving as it's trying to read the environment. And it the wave was a far better driver than most of the Uber drivers. You know, courteous, waiting for people to get in, but also getting out of the way. It was such a great driving machine. And one thing that I've heard a lot of people say, especially girlfriends of mine, people in the gay and trans communities, they actually prefer a Whimo because they are hassled a lot less. They like not having to, like you say, make awkward conversation with an Uber driver and even not be hassled by Uber drivers who are a little aggressive or make creepy comments. So that is a a really important use case as well. I wonder what they'll use because right now they have Jags or at least they did in Austin. >> Um >> the IPACE. Yes. >> Yeah. And this pretty cool. You know, you don't usually you don't see too many of those around so it like stands out. >> Um I wonder if they'll continue to use Jags because >> that brand is >> pretty much toast, right? >> I know. From what I hear from Whimo, and I did reach out to them and and correspond with them. um they are developing more cars using the Jag Ipace as the platform for it. So that is what they're saying for the foreseeable future and they are they're in Phoenix, LA, um Austin and Atlanta right now, San Francisco and they are expanding as well to you know five new cities in the new year including Washington DC and Miami and I think Dallas too if I remember right. I know I wrote the story. I have to go back and look. But they are really expanding. And to answer your question, from what they say right now, they're going to stick with the Jags. Um, so it will be really interesting to say. I will say Uber was not happy with the story because not that it was pitting Whimo against Uber at all. It it was simply reviewing Whimo, but really my big takeaway was if given the choice between a Whimo or an Uber, I would definitely prefer the Whimo. Yeah. For all of the reasons we just said. >> I mean, me too. Um, >> yeah. >> And not that I'm I don't order Door Dash, but apparently they've got a new uh partnership with Whimo, so you can >> use it to deliver your food as well, and you don't have to >> deal with anybody in that case. All right, we're going to get to uh Formula 1 because you have a great story. I shouldn't say that. We're going to get to motorsports. >> Yes. >> You have a great story. I mean, I loved it on >> uh the the obsession that car makers right now have with all different leagues in motorsports, but it looks like F1 is the only one still paying off. >> Kind of. >> More on the other side of this break. This is Hot Pursuit. [Music] This is Hot Pursuit. I'm Matt Miller along with Hannah Elliot. And Hannah, you have a fantastic story covering, you know, global motorsports and how all of the automakers around the world are um you know, lining up to get involved in everything from uh King of the Hammers to endurance racing. But it seems so far only F1 pays off. Did I sum it up right? >> Yeah. Yeah, you got it. It It's a really interesting thing because I think we all are sensing it. I'm definitely sensing it this because this weekend F1's in Austin, so everyone in Texas is talking about F1. And of course, you know, F1's got the $2 billion sponsorship market and millions of you uh TV viewers per race, etc., etc. And everybody kind of wants in on that. Everybody meaning the automakers, the brands. And so we are seeing so many brands Audi, Cadillac, Ford joining different mo obviously Formula 1 but also endurance racing like Lemon the uh World Endurance Championship Series. Um but also you know Jim Farley's talking about wanted wanting to develop a supercar for the Baja 1000. There's just so much in motorsport happening. Um of course we've got IMS racing, we've got Indie Car, and you're right. So far, everyone's talking about it. There's a lot of buzz, but F1's kind of the proven model. Obviously, we've got NASCAR, of course, in the US that's massive, but it's not growing. It's not growing like F1 has in like the potential we're seeing for the other motorsport uh series. There's just not a lot of proof that anyone's going to stick around, I guess, past the initial buzz. Now, I love, you know, the top of your story, you start off with um an anecdote about Jim Farley, who is he's really the only automotive CEO that is a dedicated race car driver. And to illustrate that point, he actually won um the International Race of Champions expedition at Laguna Secikka. Yeah, it was a it was a obviously irock is no longer running, but it was like a um an exhibition race at Laguna Secika during Monterey where he was driving in the old cars and he won his class, which is really hard to do. It's a pretty grueling thing to be out there in that heat in those old cars. And he's totally legit. He was he of course raced in Le Man. We saw we talked to him after one of his qualifying rounds, I think, um at Le Man. He's I mean he's he's the real thing. He's not winning every race, but he's out there and he's he's doing pretty well, which is great and he thinks it's important. >> I mean, the funny thing is you point out that he plays midpack in the Mustang Challenge. But I do want to uh I think it's illuminating to understand that the Mustang Challenge is a client race. So that's the people that he sells to, those are his clients. And >> yeah, >> it may be a bad look if he beats them all, right? >> Yes. >> So that race he didn't win, but the iRock exhibition he did win. So it's like maybe he was trying a little a little harder at Laguna Secika. >> I mean, Jim Farley is not a dumb man. He He is a very smart man and yes, I think he knows to how to read a room very well. So um also, you know, risk versus reward. It doesn't look good for any executive to put any type of car into a wall or take it off the track. So, he's he's got to watch it a little bit. I think he's probably, you know, he may be going 9.9 out of 10 just to make sure, you know, we don't want any bad PR um around the races. >> We don't want to lose our CEO also, you know. >> Exactly. Well, that too. That too. I mean, but clearly he and he's really told us, look, it's important. It's not just about race on Sunday, sell on Monday. It's important for us to be a part of the conversation. These motorsport series are big networking opportunities for customers, for people who are involved with the brand, for advisers, consultants, for investors. It's not just about selling cars. That's part of it, of course, but there's a whole ecosystem that motorsport involves and that is growing. Um there are three hugely important culturally important races um known as the triple crown right uh we went to LA >> there is the uh Monaco Grand Prix and then there's the Indie 500 and you know three different leagues here um one of those stands out above all the rest in terms of viewership at least according to their numbers. Yeah, the Monaco race. >> They say a billion people watch the F1 race in Monaco. >> It's I mean I get I guess we have to believe it if that's what the rating is. It's incredible. And you know what? When I talked to my little cousins who are, you know, early 20s um professional career girls, they follow Formula 1. And just last night, I was asking a couple of them at dinner, which race would you want to go if you could go to one F1 race? and they live in Texas and they said the Monaco race. So, there is this just incredible mystique and prestige around it that is also drawing in young new fans as well. It's really interesting. >> Yeah, I I'm not sure which I would want to go to of of those three. I mean, we had so much fun at Lama. >> I know >> it was amazing, but I I've never been to the Indie 500. That's got to be a massive party, right? >> It's got to be a massive party. I That's Yes, you're right. You're right. I mean, maybe you and I, Matt, should do our own Triple Crown where we go to each race together. >> I'm in. >> And we do and we share it with everyone because we we need to get to the Indy500 for sure. I've not been. >> No, I I definitely want to go. Um, I I do think that there's an argument world endurance racing uh passes down more important technology than many other leagues, but F1 is the most famous for, you know, giving us things that we use on the road today, right? >> Yes, totally. And I have to say I think the Monaco race is really fanfriendly and very accessible for people from everywhere in the city and we cannot say the same about Lama as much as we love it. >> Right. Well, I think well I I'm not I haven't been to uh the race in Monaco. I've been to other F1 races and I in my experience if you're with really rich people it's so much better to watch these things. >> Well, yes. And that that may be life in general sometimes, although not all the time. >> I prefer watching a lot of racing on T. So, my wife and I go to a lot of Moto GP races and it's great because we know people in the paddock and we have kind of access and we get to sort of meet our heroes. But when it when it when when when the lights go off, I'm I'm watching TV even when I'm there. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I totally get it. You know, that's funny. Um last night I went to a Stars game, the hockey team here in Dallas, and I just bought the cheap seats, the $20 seats way up in the rafters, and you do end up just watching it on TV. But I've been in suites at other sporting events, and you're right, you end up kind of watching it on TV there, too. So, same difference. Yeah. Uh, everyone should enjoy as much racing as possible. All right, we have one more quick pit stop with the advertisers and then we're going to be back to talk about Ferrari's new allectric ride and the potential for a gated shifter. This is Hot Pursuit. [Music] Earlier this week, Ferrari CEO Benedetto Vignia joined me and my colleague Katie Grifeld in the Bloomberg television studio. We were on live Bloomberg TV. That's why you'll notice the audio sounds a little bit different, but I thought it was important to bring you this conversation. Anyway, we kicked off by asking him about the Ferrari Icona series. Are you going to be selling more of these Iconas? This these are the special incredibly high uh price tag vehicles. I heard um for example that you can order one with a gated shifter which got me very excited. Next time I come up with $4 million I'll put it in my order. But is are you going to sell more of those in the mix along with the F F80? >> I think that we have always to make sure that this Iona and this supercar are limited. There was a clear message from a clear chart from our CFO that was telling that the number of iconic supercars will not go more than 5%. And we want to stick to it. I think that to have our client happy, he has to feel that he owns something that not only not too many people can have it and I think this is the business model of Ferrari. The scarcity must be managed well and we have to take care of the of the client. This is important. I do want to talk a little bit more directly about electric Ferraris because you lowered your targets to 20% of the lineup by 2030. Previously it had been 40%. Would love to hear a little bit more about that decision to lower the target. >> The the reason why we dropped the or we reduce we trim down the the split of the 20% of the offer is because we have seen what is happening around us. So we pushed the number of model overall has been increased overall and number two in this mix we increased the the terminal the IC. >> When are we going to see the body in white and when are we going to hear it because apparently it's going to be amplified more >> within within H1 next year we do we keep delivering on our promises phase one done phase two is going to be let's say in Q1 phase two in Q2 within Q2. Can I talk about something that you probably are sick of hearing it from me, but no analog versus digital, right? You're putting buttons back on the steering wheel in the Amalfi, which I'm very >> not only in a malf in all the cars this year. >> So, that's fantastic. I imagine customers asked for that, right? You've still got, you know, uh fields of screens in there. And I've driven a number of very expensive cars where they have screens replacing these elegant and beautiful analog gauges. You know, why don't we go back to clocks that are enamel with with, you know, needles? Wouldn't that um be more exciting for a Ferrari buyer? >> Look, we said clearly that we are a big fan of digital. It means that you use digital where it's needed and physical where it's needed. I I can tell you that all the time this year we presented the the five cars, the two Speech Ali six-cylinder, the two Tessterosa Spider and Coupe and the Ferrari Malfi. When we told our client and the entire world that we are going back to the button >> where you fill it, okay, without touching, without looking because when you drive, you need to look at the road. Well, that was a big big approach we had. So, we will use digital where it's needed and physical where it's needed. Can I just ask about the shifters because I spend so much time I bring a trailer. I'm looking at 360s. I'm looking at 430s, you know, sometimes 575s and 612s. And I noticed that the premium for a manual is massive. 50 60 70% sometimes even double for the manual car versus the autobox. So doesn't that mean customers want to buy that new too? >> Look, you have to listen to client for something. For something else, you don't you cannot listen. for something else. Maybe some good hint for the future. >> So maybe in the future you can just make a suggestion box and Matt can put his comments directly in there before he has >> to come to see us. >> There you go. >> So that was the interview uh that we did this week with Ferrari CEO Benadetto Vignia. Our thanks to the close and Katie Griffeld for that. But Hannah, I I thought some um really interesting things came out of this. mainly the fact that he seemed to imply we may get a manual transmission back in new Ferraris. >> This is incredible and it's really a complete about face if if we can believe if we're going to go forward and believe that's what's happening. This is huge. I mean, it's what everybody in the collector market seems to want and real enthusiasts, quote unquote. Um I mean do you think do you really believe that this is is likely? >> I do. Um he used the word fidget um which is a a portman too of physical and digital. So he basically was telling me look we're going to keep the digital experience to the extent that because I was like why use screens instead of going back to analog gauges? But >> he clearly wants that but he does want more physical interaction with the car. That's why they're going back to buttons on the steering wheel. >> Yes. Well, I just did a story on that. A lot of people are doing that. >> I know you did. Uh and and so I feel like, you know, the most important physical interaction with your car has to be a stick shift in this kind of vehicle, right? If you're talking about a GT car and >> this kind of to me, this ties together the our whole podcast because >> self-driving or sorry, auto uh what is it called? >> Driverless. autonomous driving um is I think at some point going to be the way forward and electric cars as well. You know, we're gonna be in a future where everybody is commuting in an autonomous electric vehicle and perhaps even where you're not allowed to drive your own car on US highways because that would then be dangerous in a world where car accidents are a thing of the past. So, it's only going to be like the collectors, the enthusiasts, the people who really care. Just like the same people who like ride horses now, right? You don't see them on the >> mechanical wristwatch. Yes. >> Or that. So, I think, you know, they're only going to want manual transmission cars for the most part. Um, just like uh if you look on auction sites as I was talking about with Benadettovenia, you'll see if you want to buy a 360 um you're going to pay a lot more for the six-speed and in fact on BAT it'll say six-speed in for any even 911s uh in the headline because they know that's much more valuable. >> Totally. I think you're very right. I and I don't think that these autonomous vehicles are mutually exclusive with uh collectible engaging cars to drive. Just what you said, these are not mutually exclusive things. I do believe they can exist together. Even at Ferrari as they're coming out next year with their electric car, the Electrica Electrica. I probably should say that with an Italian accent, but >> they drop like a C or something, right? Do they? >> Yeah, they it is. it's like electric um you know so Ferrari is moving forward into that space and then if they are coming out with some sort of manual shifting too that that completely illustrates the idea that we can have both it's again it's two different tools for two different jobs which I think everyone's okay with they don't have to be mutually exclusive at all >> well I hope I understood him correctly because It would be so cool. I think especially and look, I get that on the higher powered cars, Ferrari engineers say, "Well, we can't make a manual transmission that will deal with this much power." >> I understand that. >> Maybe that's true. Okay, you can buy a Hellcat with a manual, or you could. But, um, for a car like a the Roma, which is now the Amalfi, I think that's where it works perfectly because that's where you're not looking for two tents on a track, right? That's where you want to just enjoy your experience on the back roads. >> Pure driving engagement. Pure driving enjoyment as we as we know. I do love the Roma and I'm looking forward to driving the Amalfi soon. And yes, that makes perfect sense to me. We all know I mean nobody who is not a professional driver can handle eight or 900 horsepower with it with gears with the gearbox. No way. It's that's just ridiculous. All right. Well, that does it uh for today. I guess I'm now I just got so excited that I can't believe we're in the show here. But >> we covered a lot of ground today. Oh, I have to also say uh the Truckle it's I'm wearing it currently and it's it's working great. >> Your giant your giant belt buckle. That's right. We never came came back to that. So, that has an actual key in it. >> Yeah, it has a place to store the key. It's the the same key Ford has across all its products, but this has a little carrier for it. So, >> love it. >> Yeah, it's cool. [Music] >> All right. Well, um I look forward to seeing you again here same time, same place next week. >> That does it for this week's show. Remember to follow and subscribe to Hot Pursuit on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you listen. You can also send us your comments. Email Matt and me at hotpursuit bloomberg.net. >> Check out Hannah's columns and stories on bloomberg.com and the Bloomberg business app. Go there for car reviews, events, and stories that you won't find anywhere else. Find it all at bloomberg.com/pursuits/autos. I'm Matt Miller. >> And I'm Hannah Elliot. We'll be back in your podcast feed again next week. [Music]
Touring Texas in a Ford Expedition King Ranch & Ferrari's Electric Plans | Bloomberg Hot Pursuit!
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Transcript
[Music] Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. I'm Hannah Elliot. >> And I'm Matt Miller. And this is Hot Pursuit. Coming up today, cornering the ride share market. Why Whimo may have an advantage over Uber. >> Plus, Formula 1 is front and center in the racing world. But is there room for others? How big time automakers are betting on it? >> And Ferrari CEO Benadetto Vignia joins us. We'll talk about the company's first allect electric vehicle and the possibility that they go back to gated shifters in new cars. Thanks for joining us this week on Hot Pursuit. Hannah, I want to before we get to anything, ask about Texas cuz you were just down there. I see you're wearing a cowboy hat right now and I'm guessing you're also you have that gigantic belt buckle on you. >> I've still got the truck on. I basically haven't taken it off for a week, which is I don't know what that means about me or the truckle, but I'm I'm going with it. Um I'm actually still in Texas. I've been here a week. I've got a couple more days. I'm in Dallas right now. And we did try to do this episode from the back of the Ford Expedition King Ranch that I've been driving around all week. Got a little hot, so we had to reschedule. So that's we're I'm doing it from the confines of a climate controlled hotel room in downtown Dallas right now. But I have to say this Ford Expedition King Ranch is kind of the perfect vehicle to be driving all around Texas this week. It's been a lot of fun. >> It is gigantic. I love, you know, the King Ranch edition of the F-150 or or the Superduty trucks because it's got that extra flare. Uh I don't know if a cowboy would use that term, but it's got that, you know, you extra engraving. Yeah, the extra stitching like the swagger for sure. Is the King Ranch Expedition as cool as the King Ranch pickup truck? I have to say the King Expedition, it's not as cool because personally I love trucks, but it's pretty close. Um, Matt, you'll love it. It's a body on frame, which I know is important to you. True. It's It's not a V8. Uh, so sorry about that. It's a twin turbo V6 with EcoBoost. Um, but it does have all of that distinctive styling that the truck has, like bronze accents on the grill, the wheels, the body. Um, those wheels are 22-in wheels with like diamond cut machined aluminum detailing. And then, of course, it has all of the King Ranch badging, which is that squiggly snake line inside and outside. I mean, on the seats, um on the on the uh tread plates, on the um floor mats, it's kind of everywhere. So, if you are a fan of King Ranch, and the King Ranch is a real place, by the way, you'll probably like the Expedition uh SUV as well. >> It it is I think it's like the biggest ranch in America, right? It's >> Yes. Yes. The King Ranch. It's in South Texas. Um, I think it was incorporated in about 1853 and of course it's known for its beef cattle herd, but it also is a really prominent breeder of quarter horses. I did a little research on it because it is such a big deal. Um, they had a triple crown winner back in the 40s and it is a big brand in Texas. In fact, I went I was in Austin um a few days ago and King Ranch has a store on South Congress basically close to Hermes doing, you know, leather wear work and stuff. So, it's kind of a big deal. It's definitely a thing down here. >> Um you know, it is so gigantic and the Expedition is so gigantic as well. It's the biggest >> um SUV that that Ford makes and it's the same size as a Tahoe or a Suburban if you get the the Max version. >> I wonder if Ford doesn't reintroduce at some point a big inch V8 >> to go into that to that SUV because they do have Godzilla, right? They have the 7.3 L V8 that goes into the trucks and the Superduties and they did have a fantastic 6.2 2 liter V8 in the in the first generation Raptor. Um that I'm sure they got rid of due to cafe standards and and other regulatory issues, but those regulations are now toothless in the era of of Donald Trump. So they could bring it back. >> I think they could and maybe they even should. I will say down here in Texas where everything is bigger, people seem to love the Expeditions. I'm seeing them all over. Um, they especially love the tail pipes that are like three times the normal size. I've been noticing a lot of those on the backs of doulies. Um, so it seems like that would be very welcome here in the great state of Texas. Um, I should say, you know, about that size thing, the turning radius on the King Ranch Expedition uh is not good and parking is a challenge. Um, it's not very fun. Yeah. Yeah, it is. When you're trying to get in and out of like hotel valet and restaurant valet, it is a challenge. Um there's definitely a blind spot when you're trying to change lanes. You know, I I kind of cringe when I have to change lanes on, you know, going 85 on the freeways down here. >> It's been It really You feel it. I mean, you really feel it. It feels like you're driving an elephant. I mean, that's just the truth. Not that it's a bad thing, but it's certainly not a nimble uh lane changing car. I'd say that >> I'm sure that the twin turbo V6 is fast enough like it has enough power. >> Yeah. >> Sure. It's Yeah. >> And when And when they And when they came out with that motor in the second gen um Raptor, you know, higher horsepower, I think, and torque numbers than than the V8, but it's just everyone always asked me, "Why do I care?" And to me, there's a a more fuller, warmer feeling when you're driving uh the bigger V8 than than there is when you're driving a um you know, a smaller, more compact V6 that's got turbochargers in order to get better gas mileage. I mean, one or two miles per gallon better, but >> it's it's not worth the trade-off to me. >> Yeah, I I get it and that's totally valid. Um, this does not have an engine that's going to warm your heart. There's no like there's no connection. You don't you don't feel it. It It's not It's not a gutsy engine at all. I think there might be just under 450 horsepower. A And honestly, like I don't think anyone buys it for the power. They really I don't I just don't see it. Um, so you're you're probably right on that. It'd be better to get something smaller with a bigger engine, I bet. >> Um, the other thing is Yeah. >> And this is not specific to Ford, but this is an expensive truck, right? >> Oh, yeah. I was going to say >> the starting cost alone is like 70 grand and then you can easily option it out to 90. Um, >> easily, >> but I I noticed today that or the last couple of days we got data from Cox Automotive. So, the average car price in America is now over $50,000. >> That is wild to me. I mean, I remember when it used to be sort of low30s and now it does seem like everything's more expensive and that certainly does include new cars, too, you know. >> Yeah. It's mad. It's maddening. I mean, the >> the financing costs now are 9 10% on average. The monthly payment on average in America is 750 bucks a month and one in five people are paying >> more than $1,000 a month on a car payment. >> That's wild. Yeah, that's wild. And I also know TR obviously this we're talking about an SUV but the truck ver the King the F-150 um King Ranch again this is the bestselling vehicle in America period uh for more than four decades the Ford F-150 and a lot of those trucks are going for six easy six figures because and you see it down here people use them for work. They're in them all day driving. It's a rolling office. >> Yeah. No, I mean it's a fantastic vehicle and if you're especially if you're in a big place with big parking spots then then it makes all the sense because you can fit your whole family in it. You can fit all the stuff that you need in it. Um I wonder if the F-S series so I know it's the bestselling name plate >> in America, but that includes F-150, F250, F350, the whole gamut. And I wonder if uh General Motors actually sells more pickup trucks if you combine uh the GM um s the Chevy Silverado and the GMC uh Sienna because you know >> we should ask >> they're considered different and >> yes >> it seems like an almost unfair comparison. Is that >> Sure. I mean that would be interesting. I again my perception is very heavily skewed right now because I'm in Texas and Texas trucks are such a thing and I'm I'm just seeing so many Fords. So my perception is skewed, but I think that's a great question. We should find out actually. >> Yeah. And just see >> it it I think uh I'm pretty sure that if you total up all of GM's full-size pickup trucks, >> you're getting close to 900,000. And if you total up all the F series, it's like 750. So >> interesting. >> So, but I know they love that, you know, bestselling name plate in America. Hey, >> one of the cool things that I've done in Texas, and I've only been able to do it in Texas just cuz I don't get to spend enough time in California, is I rode in a driverless car in Austin >> in a Whimo. Like, I ordered it um with the app and it was >> I thought very cool. You wrote a story about Whimo versus Uber for Bloomberg. What What was the story? >> Yes. Well, the story was it was simply set out to be, hey, I'm a car person. I like cars. I own cars. How will I feel about being in a driverless vehicle that is also electric? And you know, what's that like? That was the whole very simple premise. And I I went into it sort of, you know, whatever, open to whatever. I didn't have any expectations. Um, my first ride, the wait for the Whimo was 26 minutes, which was unexpected. And, you know, I had to have my husband drop me off within range of the Whimo because it it's not within range of our house in Hollywood. So, it kind of started out slow, but I have to say by the end of the week, I can really see a use case for Whimos in cities like Austin, just like you said, in LA. I hope they come to New York. They're train they're training right now. They're training the cars in New York. Um, there really is a use case for it for doing things like commuting, which no car person likes commuting, you know, and it was a very good experience besides that 26- minute way. I started just scheduling them a little bit better and I really liked it. And everybody I I have spoken with who has ridden in a Whimo is also a big fan. They're they're converted. >> Yeah. Because you don't have to have someone else in the car. For example, when I order an Uber, I always it it gives you preferences. How do you want the temperature and would you like >> Yes. >> Um the would you like a quiet ride? You know, I don't necessarily want to have a conversation. I will with the driver, but I definitely don't want to hear someone else's music usually. >> No. And um even when I choose quiet, uh they're still pumping out whatever jams they're interested in or on the phone, you know, with their uh wife or whatever, you know, and it's it's just never the way I want it. Whereas I imagine um you wouldn't have ever have those kind of problems in a Whimo. >> No. No. And honestly, I thought the Uber the Whimo would be a little bit hesitating and faltering and not um confident in its driving as it's trying to read the environment. And it the wave was a far better driver than most of the Uber drivers. You know, courteous, waiting for people to get in, but also getting out of the way. It was such a great driving machine. And one thing that I've heard a lot of people say, especially girlfriends of mine, people in the gay and trans communities, they actually prefer a Whimo because they are hassled a lot less. They like not having to, like you say, make awkward conversation with an Uber driver and even not be hassled by Uber drivers who are a little aggressive or make creepy comments. So that is a a really important use case as well. I wonder what they'll use because right now they have Jags or at least they did in Austin. >> Um >> the IPACE. Yes. >> Yeah. And this pretty cool. You know, you don't usually you don't see too many of those around so it like stands out. >> Um I wonder if they'll continue to use Jags because >> that brand is >> pretty much toast, right? >> I know. From what I hear from Whimo, and I did reach out to them and and correspond with them. um they are developing more cars using the Jag Ipace as the platform for it. So that is what they're saying for the foreseeable future and they are they're in Phoenix, LA, um Austin and Atlanta right now, San Francisco and they are expanding as well to you know five new cities in the new year including Washington DC and Miami and I think Dallas too if I remember right. I know I wrote the story. I have to go back and look. But they are really expanding. And to answer your question, from what they say right now, they're going to stick with the Jags. Um, so it will be really interesting to say. I will say Uber was not happy with the story because not that it was pitting Whimo against Uber at all. It it was simply reviewing Whimo, but really my big takeaway was if given the choice between a Whimo or an Uber, I would definitely prefer the Whimo. Yeah. For all of the reasons we just said. >> I mean, me too. Um, >> yeah. >> And not that I'm I don't order Door Dash, but apparently they've got a new uh partnership with Whimo, so you can >> use it to deliver your food as well, and you don't have to >> deal with anybody in that case. All right, we're going to get to uh Formula 1 because you have a great story. I shouldn't say that. We're going to get to motorsports. >> Yes. >> You have a great story. I mean, I loved it on >> uh the the obsession that car makers right now have with all different leagues in motorsports, but it looks like F1 is the only one still paying off. >> Kind of. >> More on the other side of this break. This is Hot Pursuit. [Music] This is Hot Pursuit. I'm Matt Miller along with Hannah Elliot. And Hannah, you have a fantastic story covering, you know, global motorsports and how all of the automakers around the world are um you know, lining up to get involved in everything from uh King of the Hammers to endurance racing. But it seems so far only F1 pays off. Did I sum it up right? >> Yeah. Yeah, you got it. It It's a really interesting thing because I think we all are sensing it. I'm definitely sensing it this because this weekend F1's in Austin, so everyone in Texas is talking about F1. And of course, you know, F1's got the $2 billion sponsorship market and millions of you uh TV viewers per race, etc., etc. And everybody kind of wants in on that. Everybody meaning the automakers, the brands. And so we are seeing so many brands Audi, Cadillac, Ford joining different mo obviously Formula 1 but also endurance racing like Lemon the uh World Endurance Championship Series. Um but also you know Jim Farley's talking about wanted wanting to develop a supercar for the Baja 1000. There's just so much in motorsport happening. Um of course we've got IMS racing, we've got Indie Car, and you're right. So far, everyone's talking about it. There's a lot of buzz, but F1's kind of the proven model. Obviously, we've got NASCAR, of course, in the US that's massive, but it's not growing. It's not growing like F1 has in like the potential we're seeing for the other motorsport uh series. There's just not a lot of proof that anyone's going to stick around, I guess, past the initial buzz. Now, I love, you know, the top of your story, you start off with um an anecdote about Jim Farley, who is he's really the only automotive CEO that is a dedicated race car driver. And to illustrate that point, he actually won um the International Race of Champions expedition at Laguna Secikka. Yeah, it was a it was a obviously irock is no longer running, but it was like a um an exhibition race at Laguna Secika during Monterey where he was driving in the old cars and he won his class, which is really hard to do. It's a pretty grueling thing to be out there in that heat in those old cars. And he's totally legit. He was he of course raced in Le Man. We saw we talked to him after one of his qualifying rounds, I think, um at Le Man. He's I mean he's he's the real thing. He's not winning every race, but he's out there and he's he's doing pretty well, which is great and he thinks it's important. >> I mean, the funny thing is you point out that he plays midpack in the Mustang Challenge. But I do want to uh I think it's illuminating to understand that the Mustang Challenge is a client race. So that's the people that he sells to, those are his clients. And >> yeah, >> it may be a bad look if he beats them all, right? >> Yes. >> So that race he didn't win, but the iRock exhibition he did win. So it's like maybe he was trying a little a little harder at Laguna Secika. >> I mean, Jim Farley is not a dumb man. He He is a very smart man and yes, I think he knows to how to read a room very well. So um also, you know, risk versus reward. It doesn't look good for any executive to put any type of car into a wall or take it off the track. So, he's he's got to watch it a little bit. I think he's probably, you know, he may be going 9.9 out of 10 just to make sure, you know, we don't want any bad PR um around the races. >> We don't want to lose our CEO also, you know. >> Exactly. Well, that too. That too. I mean, but clearly he and he's really told us, look, it's important. It's not just about race on Sunday, sell on Monday. It's important for us to be a part of the conversation. These motorsport series are big networking opportunities for customers, for people who are involved with the brand, for advisers, consultants, for investors. It's not just about selling cars. That's part of it, of course, but there's a whole ecosystem that motorsport involves and that is growing. Um there are three hugely important culturally important races um known as the triple crown right uh we went to LA >> there is the uh Monaco Grand Prix and then there's the Indie 500 and you know three different leagues here um one of those stands out above all the rest in terms of viewership at least according to their numbers. Yeah, the Monaco race. >> They say a billion people watch the F1 race in Monaco. >> It's I mean I get I guess we have to believe it if that's what the rating is. It's incredible. And you know what? When I talked to my little cousins who are, you know, early 20s um professional career girls, they follow Formula 1. And just last night, I was asking a couple of them at dinner, which race would you want to go if you could go to one F1 race? and they live in Texas and they said the Monaco race. So, there is this just incredible mystique and prestige around it that is also drawing in young new fans as well. It's really interesting. >> Yeah, I I'm not sure which I would want to go to of of those three. I mean, we had so much fun at Lama. >> I know >> it was amazing, but I I've never been to the Indie 500. That's got to be a massive party, right? >> It's got to be a massive party. I That's Yes, you're right. You're right. I mean, maybe you and I, Matt, should do our own Triple Crown where we go to each race together. >> I'm in. >> And we do and we share it with everyone because we we need to get to the Indy500 for sure. I've not been. >> No, I I definitely want to go. Um, I I do think that there's an argument world endurance racing uh passes down more important technology than many other leagues, but F1 is the most famous for, you know, giving us things that we use on the road today, right? >> Yes, totally. And I have to say I think the Monaco race is really fanfriendly and very accessible for people from everywhere in the city and we cannot say the same about Lama as much as we love it. >> Right. Well, I think well I I'm not I haven't been to uh the race in Monaco. I've been to other F1 races and I in my experience if you're with really rich people it's so much better to watch these things. >> Well, yes. And that that may be life in general sometimes, although not all the time. >> I prefer watching a lot of racing on T. So, my wife and I go to a lot of Moto GP races and it's great because we know people in the paddock and we have kind of access and we get to sort of meet our heroes. But when it when it when when when the lights go off, I'm I'm watching TV even when I'm there. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I totally get it. You know, that's funny. Um last night I went to a Stars game, the hockey team here in Dallas, and I just bought the cheap seats, the $20 seats way up in the rafters, and you do end up just watching it on TV. But I've been in suites at other sporting events, and you're right, you end up kind of watching it on TV there, too. So, same difference. Yeah. Uh, everyone should enjoy as much racing as possible. All right, we have one more quick pit stop with the advertisers and then we're going to be back to talk about Ferrari's new allectric ride and the potential for a gated shifter. This is Hot Pursuit. [Music] Earlier this week, Ferrari CEO Benedetto Vignia joined me and my colleague Katie Grifeld in the Bloomberg television studio. We were on live Bloomberg TV. That's why you'll notice the audio sounds a little bit different, but I thought it was important to bring you this conversation. Anyway, we kicked off by asking him about the Ferrari Icona series. Are you going to be selling more of these Iconas? This these are the special incredibly high uh price tag vehicles. I heard um for example that you can order one with a gated shifter which got me very excited. Next time I come up with $4 million I'll put it in my order. But is are you going to sell more of those in the mix along with the F F80? >> I think that we have always to make sure that this Iona and this supercar are limited. There was a clear message from a clear chart from our CFO that was telling that the number of iconic supercars will not go more than 5%. And we want to stick to it. I think that to have our client happy, he has to feel that he owns something that not only not too many people can have it and I think this is the business model of Ferrari. The scarcity must be managed well and we have to take care of the of the client. This is important. I do want to talk a little bit more directly about electric Ferraris because you lowered your targets to 20% of the lineup by 2030. Previously it had been 40%. Would love to hear a little bit more about that decision to lower the target. >> The the reason why we dropped the or we reduce we trim down the the split of the 20% of the offer is because we have seen what is happening around us. So we pushed the number of model overall has been increased overall and number two in this mix we increased the the terminal the IC. >> When are we going to see the body in white and when are we going to hear it because apparently it's going to be amplified more >> within within H1 next year we do we keep delivering on our promises phase one done phase two is going to be let's say in Q1 phase two in Q2 within Q2. Can I talk about something that you probably are sick of hearing it from me, but no analog versus digital, right? You're putting buttons back on the steering wheel in the Amalfi, which I'm very >> not only in a malf in all the cars this year. >> So, that's fantastic. I imagine customers asked for that, right? You've still got, you know, uh fields of screens in there. And I've driven a number of very expensive cars where they have screens replacing these elegant and beautiful analog gauges. You know, why don't we go back to clocks that are enamel with with, you know, needles? Wouldn't that um be more exciting for a Ferrari buyer? >> Look, we said clearly that we are a big fan of digital. It means that you use digital where it's needed and physical where it's needed. I I can tell you that all the time this year we presented the the five cars, the two Speech Ali six-cylinder, the two Tessterosa Spider and Coupe and the Ferrari Malfi. When we told our client and the entire world that we are going back to the button >> where you fill it, okay, without touching, without looking because when you drive, you need to look at the road. Well, that was a big big approach we had. So, we will use digital where it's needed and physical where it's needed. Can I just ask about the shifters because I spend so much time I bring a trailer. I'm looking at 360s. I'm looking at 430s, you know, sometimes 575s and 612s. And I noticed that the premium for a manual is massive. 50 60 70% sometimes even double for the manual car versus the autobox. So doesn't that mean customers want to buy that new too? >> Look, you have to listen to client for something. For something else, you don't you cannot listen. for something else. Maybe some good hint for the future. >> So maybe in the future you can just make a suggestion box and Matt can put his comments directly in there before he has >> to come to see us. >> There you go. >> So that was the interview uh that we did this week with Ferrari CEO Benadetto Vignia. Our thanks to the close and Katie Griffeld for that. But Hannah, I I thought some um really interesting things came out of this. mainly the fact that he seemed to imply we may get a manual transmission back in new Ferraris. >> This is incredible and it's really a complete about face if if we can believe if we're going to go forward and believe that's what's happening. This is huge. I mean, it's what everybody in the collector market seems to want and real enthusiasts, quote unquote. Um I mean do you think do you really believe that this is is likely? >> I do. Um he used the word fidget um which is a a portman too of physical and digital. So he basically was telling me look we're going to keep the digital experience to the extent that because I was like why use screens instead of going back to analog gauges? But >> he clearly wants that but he does want more physical interaction with the car. That's why they're going back to buttons on the steering wheel. >> Yes. Well, I just did a story on that. A lot of people are doing that. >> I know you did. Uh and and so I feel like, you know, the most important physical interaction with your car has to be a stick shift in this kind of vehicle, right? If you're talking about a GT car and >> this kind of to me, this ties together the our whole podcast because >> self-driving or sorry, auto uh what is it called? >> Driverless. autonomous driving um is I think at some point going to be the way forward and electric cars as well. You know, we're gonna be in a future where everybody is commuting in an autonomous electric vehicle and perhaps even where you're not allowed to drive your own car on US highways because that would then be dangerous in a world where car accidents are a thing of the past. So, it's only going to be like the collectors, the enthusiasts, the people who really care. Just like the same people who like ride horses now, right? You don't see them on the >> mechanical wristwatch. Yes. >> Or that. So, I think, you know, they're only going to want manual transmission cars for the most part. Um, just like uh if you look on auction sites as I was talking about with Benadettovenia, you'll see if you want to buy a 360 um you're going to pay a lot more for the six-speed and in fact on BAT it'll say six-speed in for any even 911s uh in the headline because they know that's much more valuable. >> Totally. I think you're very right. I and I don't think that these autonomous vehicles are mutually exclusive with uh collectible engaging cars to drive. Just what you said, these are not mutually exclusive things. I do believe they can exist together. Even at Ferrari as they're coming out next year with their electric car, the Electrica Electrica. I probably should say that with an Italian accent, but >> they drop like a C or something, right? Do they? >> Yeah, they it is. it's like electric um you know so Ferrari is moving forward into that space and then if they are coming out with some sort of manual shifting too that that completely illustrates the idea that we can have both it's again it's two different tools for two different jobs which I think everyone's okay with they don't have to be mutually exclusive at all >> well I hope I understood him correctly because It would be so cool. I think especially and look, I get that on the higher powered cars, Ferrari engineers say, "Well, we can't make a manual transmission that will deal with this much power." >> I understand that. >> Maybe that's true. Okay, you can buy a Hellcat with a manual, or you could. But, um, for a car like a the Roma, which is now the Amalfi, I think that's where it works perfectly because that's where you're not looking for two tents on a track, right? That's where you want to just enjoy your experience on the back roads. >> Pure driving engagement. Pure driving enjoyment as we as we know. I do love the Roma and I'm looking forward to driving the Amalfi soon. And yes, that makes perfect sense to me. We all know I mean nobody who is not a professional driver can handle eight or 900 horsepower with it with gears with the gearbox. No way. It's that's just ridiculous. All right. Well, that does it uh for today. I guess I'm now I just got so excited that I can't believe we're in the show here. But >> we covered a lot of ground today. Oh, I have to also say uh the Truckle it's I'm wearing it currently and it's it's working great. >> Your giant your giant belt buckle. That's right. We never came came back to that. So, that has an actual key in it. >> Yeah, it has a place to store the key. It's the the same key Ford has across all its products, but this has a little carrier for it. So, >> love it. >> Yeah, it's cool. [Music] >> All right. Well, um I look forward to seeing you again here same time, same place next week. >> That does it for this week's show. Remember to follow and subscribe to Hot Pursuit on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you listen. You can also send us your comments. Email Matt and me at hotpursuit bloomberg.net. >> Check out Hannah's columns and stories on bloomberg.com and the Bloomberg business app. Go there for car reviews, events, and stories that you won't find anywhere else. Find it all at bloomberg.com/pursuits/autos. I'm Matt Miller. >> And I'm Hannah Elliot. We'll be back in your podcast feed again next week. [Music]