Main Theme: Bullish on Copper with a focus on South Australia and the scarcity of developable Copper Juniors in Australia supporting elevated strategic value
Key Pitch: Havilah Resources (HAV) touted as undervalued given a binding deal with Sandfire Resources (SFR) for the Kalkaroo copper-gold project
Deal Structure: SFR to pay ~$105m upfront (cash + scrip) and an option to acquire up to 80% for a further ~$105m, plus fund a PFS and ~$30m exploration, with HAV retaining a 20% free-carried interest
Valuation Upside: Look-through implies ~$300m for the 80% plus potential ~$300m for HAV’s 20% at NPV (guest’s estimate at consensus metals prices), suggesting total value potential near ~$600m
Market Context: Copper and gold prices are materially higher than during the 2022 OZ Minerals option, improving project economics and strengthening the strategic appeal
Risks: Metallurgy challenges (oxide vs sulfide circuits), governance/shareholder registry dynamics, EGM approval, and the possibility SFR exits post-PFS—mitigated by the non-refundable upfront consideration and funded work
Comparables: References to Rex Minerals’ Hillside transaction and OZ Minerals/BHP activity used as valuation anchors; SFR’s involvement viewed as technical validation
M&A Optionality: A live auction dynamic exists until the EGM (end of January), with low liquidity potentially amplifying any new bids; guest increased position sizing post-deal on improved risk-reward
Transcript
Travis Rickardo, we've got a bit of a different episode today, don't we? >> It is. It is a bit different. We've we've coached our our good friend Anthony Kavanaaugh, Cav as um as we call him, of of Chester. I think he runs the Chester Opportunities Fund. One of Cav's, you know, things he's been talking about a fair bit. In fact, he he alluded to this stock and this company, this opportunity when we when we spoke to him a year ago um when we did our like funny predictions. This is a you know a copper junior that Cav he's he's had a long history with. We're going to peel that out why it's interesting to him why he sort of you know why he thinks there's a special situation on hand right now and we've probably just got to get out of the way disclaimers up front mate. We own stock in this company which is Hava Resources. Ding, ding, ding. We're conflicted. Ignore any of our perspectives from that angle or just just take it with a grain of salt. >> But I I think it's super entertaining for a number of reasons. Kev has wanted to do this episode for a long time. It's a fascinating company as he explains in the whole story. He got involved quite some time ago, but he's just such an interesting thinker. To understand and hear from him how he tried to sort of create value here is both entertaining and insightful. And for that reason, I'm pretty keen to to share this story on the back of obviously the deal with StandFire that's come out. >> Yeah, mate. I I totally agree. Hopefully, money managers, you get some value. We invite a bit of feedback on this one. If you've got a a contrary perspective to us and Cav, drop a comment. Let us know let us know why why um our view might be with the wrong view. >> I'm sure it'll come back one way or another. >> Yeah, >> mate. We've got a new partner as well, Switch Technologies. I'm very excited to share this. Yeah, >> tell me about Switch, mate. Mate, Switch are an engineering company based right in the heart of Perth. They got 5,000 square meters in the middle of North Bridge. It's an old Toyota facility there. And what they do is really cool. 25 engineers working in the company. And they are a bunch of problem solvers, mate. So, if you are running a process plant, you're at a mining company in one form or another and you've got problems you want solved, Switch is the team you need to get in in touch with. >> So, they turn ideas into into solutions. >> That's it. They execute the ideas. And I'm sure there's people at mining sites right now that have a bunch of ideas and they just don't have the bandwidth to execute on them. So Switch are the team you need to get in touch with. We've got Mike's details in the show notes which you can check out. But they've also got a bunch of solutions that they've put into the market out there right now. So they had this wicked project with Pilra Minerals. They retrofit a CAT 785 ton dump truck. Put this wicked hybrid system in there. So a bunch of really cool things >> existing mechanical >> Yeah. truck with with a hybrid hybrid retrofit. It's really >> all happening here in Perth, mate. >> Cost savings off the back of it. And that is that is um a big part of the message here, mate. These are cutting edge kind of tech where there's a commercial business case and it saves dollar per ton because this is their expertise, their capability. JD, I thought here's here's here's my pitch to switch. This is to you, Mike. I've got some ideas myself on how you might be able to save some dollars per ton in your processing facilities. First one here, mate. >> I call this one the stop running it till it explodes alert system. So you you have a little sensor box and it warns you when a pump or a gearbox it's about to become a crime scene instead of being run proudly into the ground because it survives survived the last shift. >> That sounds like a problem switch can help you with. >> Second one, don't know if this one's better. I call it the stop over grinding everything meal whisperer. So this just just a control overlay system that stops the meal from you know turning decent 200 micron feed into baby powder. >> Not bad. Not bad. I'm sure I'm sure the folks out there at the mine sites have hundreds of these problems. >> They're probably better problems than I can with. >> They're probably very real world problems, mate. And it's a good thing we've got people like Switch solving these problems for us. >> If you got an idea, just email Mike switchtenologies.com. He will come up with well, they will come up with the solution for your problems to save you money. Go switch. >> All right, let's let's rip in. We've got a hell of a story to tell. How do we I don't know how to intro this story other than to say um Cav through knowing you, you've you've lured us into the appeal of a a very intriguing uh South Australian undeveloped copper stock called Hava HIV. We own stock in this. We are conflicted. Anything that comes out of here like just assume that that you know we have every incentive for the for for an outcome higher than where the share price is today. So discount everything we're going to say from that perspective. But we bought shares on market with our own money. So hopefully there's some alignment on that front. Um I I don't even know where to begin here, mate. Because um I actually did check my notes and I'm like where did it begin for me? Like it was kind of one of those stories as a South Australian and someone who's caught up in the I guess the mania of copper and everyone trying to find a a copper asset to develop. You kind of look at everything that's available, right? And it turns out the first I guess instance that I had with the company was actually April 2022 and it was in kind of the madness of it was one of the lockdowns in Melbourne where a lot of people couldn't actually get out of the state and I was in Adelaide at the time with my family and UBS had organized a visit to some Adelaide companies and a lot of them were at the time you say subscale and semi-economic but amongst it you know when saw OS Minerals and we saw an a few of the the larger plays, but in the mix was Havla. And so at the time it was like a $60 million company. And I remember going out there and seeing all the optionality of the assets and just turning to a few of the guys going that was really interesting, but like it's a $60 million company. Like what the hell was going on here? And there's a family member of mine who' previously mentioned it to me and I called them up and I'm like, "What what were you telling me about?" They're like, "Oh yeah, it's my only PA position and I think you should really take a look at it." I'm like, "Oh, look. It's probably too small for us. Really subscale." And on that same day, we saw Oz Minerals later in the ARO and Oz Minerals was talking about how they've done these deep dives and all the copper assets literally globally, not just in Australia. And I couldn't help but think to myself, maybe there's something in it. like the conversation we'd had from Havler needing a big capital partner to to help develop that asset to Oz Minerals needing a ready to develop copper asset that literally had done all the expiration work. They just needed to get into production. And I was kind of like at the time it was one of those thoughts you never really do any like gez there's something probably there but nothing's going to happen and then I can't remember when exactly the deal got consummated but it would have been say six months later down the track that OS Minerals ended up kind of putting an offer on to that asset in Karoo. >> Yeah there was an option an option agreement that they they entered there from memory. >> Yeah 100%. And at the time I was just like, "Wow." Like one of those instances where just fortuitously you saw the two companies in the same day, both South Australian companies, you thought maybe it'd be great synergies to see those two together. One needing capital, one with capital, one wanting a growth project, one needing desperately a growth partner. And then they come together and you're like, "Oh, wow. We were there." And I send a message to some of the guys that are on the same site visit going, "Isn't that neat that that kind of happened together?" And kind of nothing came of it at the time. And just like, yeah. And I mean I think at the time it was probably around a $400 million deal. I know there was different structures to what the the recent SFI deal has been announced, but lo and behold, obviously the BHP OS minerals takeover occurred and in the mix was kind of like this small asset that probably didn't really fit within the BHP portfolio. obviously didn't the way kind of transpired but at the time you're like what's going to happen with the with that asset and I started getting interested probably as a potential investment thesis went I got a feeling that Havler had gotten to 27 cents at the time which would have been I'm going to say about 100 million market cap maybe no probably even less when it was kind of almost it felt to me 50/50 almost whether BHP was going to kind of progress with that option that that OS Minerals had originally entered into once they' taken over OS Minerals. But yeah, then BHP kind of reneged from that option and it kind of I think oh I I should pull up my chart but from memory Hava went down to like I think 15 or 16 cents and everyone just thought there's there's nothing here but all the information that I was hearing from everyone involved was that Havler was going to be well technically it stood up. It's just that it was too small for BHP. It had no technical flaws. There was a lot of uh interest in the asset because of the grades, because of the oxide layer that sat on the top. Uh because of the location and because of some of the expiration hits nearby it almost, you know, became a province play in um Hava. it kind of nothing really was ever going to happen at that stage because uh it just was became one of those small cap companies that just didn't have the capital and didn't have the eyeballs and no offense to the management team but I don't think it was marketed appropriately. Um, so we I'm happy happy to go whatever direction you want to take those kind of comments. But >> I remember I remember you first like mentioning it to us like yeah must must have been >> subsequent to that option lapsing that that BHP let lapse and um I remember you saying like I still think it was a good trade because you know what was the probability that BHP excis that option or not yada yada and even though the stock fell like you still I remember you articulating to us that you still thought that was a good a good a good bet to have made. Then um another bit of context on this. I'd heard from someone that the the the BHP um like you know deal with OS Minerals is part of the rationale why OSM minerals signed the option agreement in the first place with Hav like maybe maybe that option agreement was actually part of the defense you know value negotiation um stance from from OS Minerals in the first place. Maybe they didn't actually necessarily have the view to exercise that option, but at least having that on the table gave them some legs to negotiate an uplift in price from from BHP, which ultimately did come to fruition. But you still zoom out and you think there were two two copper projects in Osmineral's backyard that they could have chosen from and and the knock on both of them for the longest period of time is that they haven't come knocking on on either of them. And that was that was Rex Mineral Hillside and that was um Hava's Calkaroo. And the one that they they you know did a at least a paper deal on um was was Havas Karoo. >> Yeah, I I definitely heard something similar. So in amongst my interest in this company, I've spoken to most of the key players I think that have been involved with it. um Exos mineral staff members um other people associated with the deal, geologists who who've looked at the data, people within the South Australian government, um all types of different parties just to understand why this asset still sat there as like this undeveloped asset that has approximately.9% copper equivalent grade for an open pit. It almost became a semi-obsession of mine to understand why this asset was still left undeveloped. Um, I think it might have those conversations might have progressed one night over dinner when there was another buddy of mine guest that kind of had been on your show when I was discussing with him what his thoughts were and potentially trying to progress a deal with them and and I could I could take you through a story, but I don't necessarily want to reveal who that was in case they they don't necessarily want their name to be associated with it. Um but um certainly worked our own angle to try and help the management team I guess liberate value from this asset. Um and there was probably I would say at least three different approaches to that um to the management team of this company between oh let's say 2020 20 late 2023 and probably early to mid 2025 um in different forms >> and that's three from three from you and and your group CV not to mention the the others that we >> correct >> that have sort of you know we bit inferred that have approached the company with with alternate proposals Yeah, correct. So I would say that I I kind of almost had a investment consortium and I was inspired by someone I'd seen had put together a few deals of a similar type of uh I guess methodology to what I was thinking and that like if we could help them I guess build out their management team a little and also kind of help capitalize the balance sheet, it might give them a bit of a a stronger footing to go approach the investment community uh with a more institutional type um of company than than what they what they have I mean they've they've operated at a pretty shoestring budget uh as long as I've known them um and gone by peace mill with their own drill rig and I kind of thought to myself well if you can actually have the money behind this company and actually be well capitalized with a pathway to getting a feed completed with your own capital and you actually bulk out the management team you know there was a few guys at mirrors I would have loved to say that we were able to get Andrew Cole and convince him to come join the board or or the management team of Havlin which My original original thought it wasn't to be, but there was a few guys in the mix and I I don't I don't want to say who they were in case they didn't want to be named either, but we' spoken to a few guys that we thought might have been appropriate to to help with the management team there and and thought what what we had was a good proposal, including maybe a corporate that might have given some added credibility um to the project and to the asset. Um, and so yeah, like the most recent approach, and I might have alluded to it in your Christmas crackers special, like I I did mention the fact that I was I was pretty interested in a couple of copper plays, and one of them was this potential deal that we were we were thinking about at the time. Um, but obviously that deal didn't eventuate. At the time, I was kind of a bit confused as to why management would rebuff such a such an approach. I mean, um, us potentially helping them fund their balance sheet and take that project to a to a PFS level, um, and also do some further exploration drilling, which is kind of what the Sandfire dealers look like. So, maybe they did learn something from from our our approaches, uh, is kind of what the Sandfire dealers kind of come out with, but we were going to help them to basically develop it to a to a PFS stage themselves or to a preID stage themselves. Um, yeah. So, there's a lot to it, but what I think has transpired ultimately is that there's been a lot of people that have have looked at the asset, and most of the feedback I've had is that there's been no technical flaws with the asset, which is the same feedback that we've had from our independent technical experts that have looked at it. Um, >> they've had an open data room for for a very long time here. Right. >> Yeah, correct. they have had an open data room and there's been quite a number of parties I believe that have gone through that data room. Uh our fund had personally been approached by two or three of those parties um asking for opinions, advice um asking for someone that might actually be able to push management in a certain direction. Um so I was certainly around diggers expecting that maybe something might occur of of this type of standing. Um, that's not to say we're 100% happy with the price or the way the share price has reacted since, but um, there's certainly been a number of parties that have expressed interest and done the detail as far as I'm aware on on the asset. And I mean, my my business colleague and I, uh, Rob, we we were in Perth 12 months ago, I'd say now. And I remember having the meetings with most of the companies in Perth um you know your your standard companies and you know your South 32s, your Sandfires, your even some of the gold names and the consistent feedback we kept getting was that everyone would have loved a developable developable copper asset in Australia, right? And it just was consistent over and over again. Oh, we'd just love a 50,000 ton premium asset in Australia for copper. And obviously, you know, MAC was there, but you know, that was already developed and you you had to pay a pretty full price tag is what we've seen, Harmony, to acquire that asset. But everyone just consistently said, "We'd love a developable copper asset in Australia." And I just kept thinking to myself, well, has anyone actually looked at this asset? I mean, I know that there's been some assets up in Queensland that have transacted and obviously the Rex Minerals deal, but my understanding of of Rex is it's, you know, probably more pristine pasture land than than what they have in Broken Hill. the grade is probably a little bit lower. Um, and it's probably a bit bit more complexity in the build at at Rex's project than there is at Karoo. So, >> yeah, it was that Rex deal that got JD and I very interested in Hava because the moment you saw this, you know, >> $400 million deal for Rex, it was like, well, if Oz thought that Hava was the better asset and and and this company's got a market cap, I think at the time was like 60 65 million bucks or something like that. We touched on the the Wenu one as well, which you know has an asterisk to it. >> You stole my Woo Thunder, right? I think I was after the Wow deal got announced. I think I sent you a message similar to the line of >> if we know he's worth XXX then Kakaroo is worth dot dot dot. And I think you used that and put out a tweet at the time, but at the time you were trying to kind of I guess >> keep discreet the fact that like Havler and Kakaroo were the companies and the and the copper name that I was talking about in my Christmas cracker. But anyway, >> yes. >> Um what B will be. But um less we sit today. I mean we could we could delve into the deal cuz I'm I'm still sitting here going >> before the deal. Let's talk about the the share registry of Hav like why is there been an impediment to to I don't know do a deal like what's the the shareholder dynamic and the influence on the company. It's not necessarily a bad one. There's just a a hold out on on value. >> Yeah. >> Someone actually asked me about this today. They're like oh what can you tell me about the uh the left share registry? And I'm I'm like well it's pretty devoid of institutions. I think there might be one or two. Uh some of them aren't necessarily institutions in your black and white scheme of institutions. Uh there's an interesting character called Bob Johnson. Um and I I don't think we've got enough time to go through the whole history of Bob, but um Bob was the founder of of Havler. Y >> also the founder of a company called Maptech. >> Big company. >> Um >> big company. Yeah. And Bob has a lot of influence within the company to the point where I had presented to the board previously some of my thoughts on on Havler and Bob was in the room at the time which I thought was interesting because um I think uh he he's basically as a material shareholder and an ex-founder of the company still has a fair bit of sway with the uh with the current board and the management team. So um sometimes to the point where it's um extremely influential. So um and his his position on the share register has been questioned at times in terms of how much stock he actually controls. Um so I think that's an interesting aspect to the whole register. And I think sometimes the company has ended up doing some things that aren't necessarily interested of all shareholders might be in the best interest of Bob but um when you're a founder of a business sometimes that's what happens. We've we've seen plenty of examples of founder le businesses doing some things this this year in particular that might not necessarily be for all shareholders but um I think he's got really interesting past Bob and um I think I I believe when I presented to him and the board that we shared some similar philosophies into what Havler and and Karoo could be for particularly South Australia and and the industry at large. I generally see kind of Karoo and the province that they're in as kind of almost been a foundational asset for copper South Australia beyond obviously there's Olympic Dam Prominent Hill and Carapatina but I think South Australia could be a lot more than that and and this province um the Caratina province that sorry the Kurtara province um that they've got has the potential for a couple of um Kaparoo lookalikes. I mean, we've seen some really interesting hits that have been there that just haven't been followed up because they haven't had the capital to drill. And I'm really excited as to what could actually transpire from some of the some of the drill holes that might be drilled with the um expiration money that Sandfire is throwing at at the province. Um so yeah, like I mean there's so much so much to it, but um I think that yeah, Bob Bob Johnson is very super interesting >> to to to the the credit of of management. It's not like they were like spending a crazy amounts of money and and diluting diluting existing shareholders a massive amount along that way. They've just been there's been a hold out for a deal that has been somewhat comparable to the one that was was tabled by by Oz Minerals. And and now as of a couple weeks ago, we've finally gotten a deal that is comparable to the the one that was tabled by Oz Minerals in 2022, which >> Do you want to run us through what what that deal was, Cav, with Sandfire? Yeah, I think I think as to your point, some of the challenges have been that like that deal being a couple years old now, it was at a copper price. I'm guessing now about three bucks 50 a pound and obviously we're about five bucks today and I'd say gold prices are probably 1,500 US and and we're you know four around 4,000 today. So you've had a pretty strong commodity price environment since the OS minerals deal when the deal implied was $400 million. So I can understand management's I guess anchoring to thinking that maybe they should be holding out for a $600 million type of price tag. But this probably comes to your original point Trav when you mentioned that some people had suggested that Havler was almost used as a bargaining chip to BHP where some people might have suspected that maybe the price tag at which OS Minerals had struck that that deal might have been probably 100 or $200 million higher than than what might have otherwise been the case if BHP wasn't lurking there as a as a as a takeover bidder that they were trying to I guess push in one direction. So that probably created some issues for management. expectations from I guess shareholders and and even themselves going well gez $400 million price tag with copper price and gold price now higher you know how can we how can we transact on anything in you know and some of the price tags that I suspect have been floating around have been $2 $300 million right and so this this deal that they've now got with with Sandfire $105 million up front script and cash so that 105 does swing around a bit with the Sandfire share us that literally gets them an option to potentially acquire another or 80% of the asset for another $105 million. So that in itself is I think extremely interesting for Hav shareholders. Um I think the price tag itself even though the headline looks like it's $210 million for 80%. You got to remember they're also funding a PFS which could be anywhere $50 million I think could be a little bit higher than that even. They're they're putting $30 million into expiration into into ground that otherwise wouldn't have seen that that type of capital spent. And then at the end of all of that, people have said to me that the biggest risk is that Sen might do all that work work and then walk away. I mean, if they did spend that money, let's call it umund what $185 million including the PFS costs and the expiration costs and then walked away. I mean, is that a risk to Havler because then they end up with 100% of this asset, right? That has had a fair bit of interest beyond just Sandfire and OS minerals >> that upfront is non is non-refundable. They get to keep the >> yeah 100% it's binding and it's non-refundable as long as >> at the EGM the shareholders vote for it to occur, right? So yeah, >> that is itself is extremely interesting. If then Sandfire wants to progress with the 80%. >> They then need to spend another $105 million in cash and script which is in itself extremely interesting. So that then sets the price tag 85 plus 105 equals what what's that 200 I bet let's call it $300 million for round numbers and that's for 80% of the asset right so then um Havler are then free carried on the remaining 20%. Almost like the onslow situation for the joint venture partners to minres now you need to pay back the capital so let's let's say this is a I don't know $1.2 two billion dollar project 20% of that you're then going to be talking $250 million that needs to be repaid from the cash flow of the asset might take two years to to repay it if I'm if I'm being optimistic and generous but >> importantly have don't have to fund that they don't have to >> don't have to fund right so you're talking about a company that's you know literally gotten buy on a shoestring and you rightly pointed out that I think management have done a really good job in controlling costs like people can call this a lifestyle company but it's not a lifestyle company that's going been going out there and spending a lot of money I think Chris has done really well for the the budget that they've had. I just I just think maybe at times they could have been a bit more market facing and kind of driven a lower cost of capital for themselves and had the ability with more capital. But what be will be that's in the past, but they've done really well with it with the budgets they've got. They're now in a position where they're going to be fully funded for that asset. Don't have to put any dollars in themselves. Gets to a point where they're going to have 20% of it that's free carry. Don't have to put in any capital. and you're getting a 20% stake in what is originally going to be probably a 40 to 50,000 ton perm project. Maybe it could get upscaled to an 80,000 ton per pan project with a 20 million ton per mill. I don't know. But at the same time in a small cap copper space, you know, as well as I do, there aren't a huge amount of ways to play it. Like we're playing develop because, you know, we we love everything that Bill's doing. Maybe not so much the wood lawn ramp up today, but I think it's going to come good. But there's not there's not many ways to play copper, right? Um, and this is kind of almost a look through at a Sandfire type of asset, a nonoperated position, an asset that's operated by Sandfire in Australia. Um, so yeah, I still think at these prices, if the look through before you even think about the 20% is $300 million for that 80% stake. And then that 20% stake, you'd assume would get transacted close to MPV. you know, if you've got Japanese or Korean money looking to buy into that project when it gets to an FID decision, I'd assume it a transacted close to NPV. Now, our MPV of the project using gold prices close to where they are now and and long-term commodity prices in line with consensus um like a copper price of $450 to 5, we get $1.5 billion Australian at 10% whack. So, that 200, so that 20%, sorry, could be worth as much as $300 million in its own right, which gets you to about a $600 million type of valuation. Now this is a small cap company that has always struggled for capital and you know has got a an interesting register as you said in a management team that I guess a lot of people in the market don't necessarily back. So you got to trade a discount to that $600 million but I was still sitting today and I think I said it to you guys the day of the deal. I thought the day after the or the day the deal had been announced particularly when it opened up at I think 33 34 cents was cheaper than it was the day before even though it was up >> 30%. And I know it's a funny thing to say, but on a riskreward basis when the asset is potentially now going to be operated by Sandfire with the clout that they have and and you know their ability to develop projects as as we've seen with MOO, I I just think it's a completely different company to what it was before. >> So Kev, with with all the work you did over over the years looking at it, the the proposals you put together, what did you actually think of the deal that that Sandfire and and the company agreed to? I've had a couple of people ask me this. Um, and I yeah, I I don't want to go too detail as to why I got asked this by someone in particular, but I actually said to this person, I I thought it was a really good deal. Um, I thought it was a really good deal and the fact that Sandfire um have entered into a binding situation whereas the OS minerals deal, there was an option over the asset for one or two years. kind of was sitting half pregnant whereas this once the EGM gets voted on assuming there hasn't been an interloper then it's binding right so Sanfire are obligated to give Havler that that that capital up front um yeah you can still say there's a question mark whether they're going to take the other 80% but that puts Havler in a very strong position at that point um I would say that the the the fact that they've still been able to retain some of the southern tenements it's 100% owned like that was one of the sticking points with anyone trying to approach the company for a fullcoming takeover is that the management team and and Bob genuinely believe in the southern tenementss there is going to be a kakaroo lookalike. Now I haven't seen all the data I I can't confirm or deny whether that's going to be the case but like Bergkate for them stands as a really interesting prospect and you know they almost have dreams that it could be bigger than Karoo. I think the fact that they're still able to retain a stake in Mutaroo, which I haven't even mentioned when I was talking about the $600 million in value that they potentially got at Karoo. Mudaroo for me, you know, 20 million tons plus at, you know, one plus% copper or some cobalt and a little bit of gold. I think stands as a really interesting asset as well and and JX Advanced Metals um from Japan have been negotiating with them on that asset. I think the exclusivity period has expired on that, but I still think there's optionality for a deal to occur there and maybe that could be $100 million of value in its own right. we we we certainly see value 100 plus particularly if they can come up with a an infrastructure solution. So, I actually think the deal ticks a lot of boxes uh in my mind. Uh, I would have loved to see a higher price, but at the same time, you know, compared to the OS Minerals deal, you know, we can we can argue how I've just cut it that maybe there is $600 million worth of value here, which, you know, means that Bob and Chris did the right thing in in not kind of selling out the company for a cheaper price or selling the asset at a cheaper price than what they have because, you know, if they if Sandfire can get this project to an FID decision and then if they did want to sell that 20% stake, which is free carried and maybe you can get 200 million plus for it. Um then yeah, maybe we can see 500 $600 million worth of value, which with where the share price is trading, like I get it's a small cap. I get that there's been a discount for this team and and everything associated with it, but I don't know what the appropriate discount is. I just think it's way too much at the moment, right? Like >> yeah, >> I mean, >> think of the day the day the deal was announced. It was 34 cents and the upfront consideration alone was 30 cents per share on the you know just it was a it's a table banger and now it's like like trading like 43 40ish 43 44 cents per share and um yeah the see the see-through even after tax you can you can be constructive on and so $150 million right so you know you're literally paying for the upfront capital and maybe muru >> not even like you're paying for the upfront capital you're paying for the respiration they're going to spend and you're paying some of the PFS costs. So, um yeah, like you've literally got a free option at their 20% free carried holding. You got a free option that StandFire comes on, gives them another $15 million, which what's what's that? It's 22 cents, I think. Um yeah, so like I I still see kind of a dollar as being a reasonable line in the sand, right? Um and that's 350 million bucks um at this stage of where they're at. that may maybe the market's waiting for the EGM vote to go through because I if you look back at the the history of this company, there has been some some funny situations with assets in the past where deals have been voted back. But um yeah, I mean it's extremely interesting where it's sitting today. >> There's an EGM vote end of Jan and and if there's if there if there were any other like interest in the asset, you've effectively got you've got to move before that EGM. >> Yeah, 100%. So like like when I said I like the deal, I think another aspect that I like about the deal is there's been question marks whether the process that they've run has been as thorough as it could be and whether it's created enough competitive tension. Um I I don't know the ins and outs of that whole process because it's you know subject to confidentiality agreements but now we've got a very live auction right so if you are really interested in this asset and you want to acquire it you've got until the end of January and what it'll be will be right as as a shareholder like if no one else bids for the asset and it comes the end of January I'll say then Sandfire won the auction and fair play to them it's still a really good price and and the share price certainly doesn't reflect what that price is but if someone else is interested then we're going to find that out hopefully before the end of January and um yeah and and and we'll see what what we'll be. >> What one one of the other interesting details here is that the stock just doesn't trade that much. The the the liquidity is pretty low and obviously you got the massive shareholders and and a few others uh speaking for a good few percent here and there which all culminates in in a good few but as always is the case on the day of the deal you see heightened volume but even on that day it it wasn't massive. It's it's a few percent of the company and that's completely died down. So to that end, if if somebody were to come in and and try and buy a stake, they're they're not going to have an awful lot of luck without pushing the share price up in my mind at least. Do you see that the same way? >> Yeah, I think that's right. And I think uh yeah, what can I say? Um I I would suspect that maybe parties might have tried to consider acquiring the whole company and maybe that might have been a bit too hard. Hence, they've had to negotiate in this type of fashion. like if if I was stand I would have thought it'd just be easier to to try and acquire the whole business, right? Um and I I don't know if they approached him um with that proposal. I know other parties in the past have done so and and it's been harder because of like some of the desires of Bob and Chris and and you know they pretty much don't want to see this asset go at almost any price but eventually they got to realize the limits of their capital and and and other shareholders desires. So yeah, I think that at the right if the right approach was made, I think they'd have to entertain the consideration of the whole company being acquired. But um I mean, if we can see $600 million worth of value in that deal, like you're going to have to see a price a fair bit higher than where it is today to to at least entertain an offer. >> Um can we talk about NOX knocks to the thesis, Cav? Um one one that comes up a bit is is is Met. What do you say to that critique? >> I'm just going to say I'm I'm not technical. I'm not a a GEO. I'm not a I'm not a engineer or any any stretch of the imagination that the people that I have spoken to and and I have kind of I wouldn't say uh what's the what's the correct word? Um I've certainly asked a lot of people who've looked at this in detail their opinions and people that I trust, family members that have the expertise and the technical knowhow. And I'd say that a lot of the the commentary that I received back is that a lot of a lot of the mistakes that get made is that people just think you can just blend the oxides and the sulfides at the same time. Um the carbonates and the sulfides. And it just that's probably where you're going to get tripped up. Like you you probably need two separate processing circuits for the oxides and and for the sulfides. And if you are to process them separately um is my understanding and and all the the work that has been done on recoveries and even probably the work that BHP did that supports you know some reasonable recoveries. You're not talking high 90s but you're talking 90% types of recoveries comes from processing those in in in separate kind of circuits. Um uh yeah, I mean a number of people have mentioned it, but it's not a like the reason why the asset is where it is is it's not as simple as as it could be. You know, if it was an amazing piece of geology and it was an agrade asset, it would have already been like bought by someone. I would say that we've heard plenty of other I guess assets that you know during certain markets that most people question them, right? Like I think we've thrown out different examples where people questioned Danger, people questioned, you know, Capricorn colorinder asset, right? Like a slow grade, it's you know, tough body, whatever. But like in the right environment and the right operators, you find solutions to these types of things, right? Um there's plenty of examples where, you know, the right priced environment that these assets work. Um you know, at gold prices of a,000 bucks an ounce and copper price of 350 today, maybe Kakaru would be a bit more of a challenging asset. But like with that oxide layer that they've got on top, there's 500,000 ounces there that's in the pre-trip that if you can get the right processing circuit that can create a pretty attractive income stream to help you do the pre-trip that can help you get into the sulfides that you know then hopefully you can process at the right economics. >> The the um do you get get any comfort out of the fact that like you know Sandfire under under Brendan Harris has obviously been looking at a bunch of different growth options. This is the first first deal that they've publicly come out with since since Brendan's been M MD there. Um, you wouldn't think they they they pay themselves upfront non-refundable component of of of 105 without having some degree of comfort on on the MET themselves. Even if they they're, you know, proven to be wrong over time, like they themselves must have a view that they're constructive on on the Met to pay a non-refundable 105, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I get that everyone wants to have an opinion, but sometimes I'm I'm almost surprised that like guys on X who come out and and knock the project fail to recognize the fact that OS Minerals, BHP, Sandfire, and probably at least three or four other parties that maybe can't name at the moment have gone and done the network and said, you know, given the thumbs up and yet, you know, they've looked at old feasibility studies and some of the data that they've seen, you know, from from old announcements and gone, oh, not the MET doesn't work. And it's like, well, to your point, yeah, Sandfire have entered a non-binary agreement, right? And people will say, oh, yeah, but it's $105 million. It's an option. And I go, yeah, but this is what they're putting their name to, as you said, like they've they've looked at I don't know how many projects they've looked at, but quite a number of projects. And Minerals, I I sat down with them and they literally looked at every single copper asset that was available and and whether or not it was just a bargaining chip for BHP, you're not going to enter that type of agreement if you didn't believe in it and you hadn't done the work. So yeah, yeah, I agree. Like there's there's there's enough credibility behind the names that have put their name to it to go, well, you know, there's enough detail to show that it does work. >> So So you've, you know, you've made the the opportunity pretty clear to us. We've spoken about it a bunch, Kev. It's it's super kind of interesting. I I'm really curious to hear about how you think about sizing positioning in in the name right now because we've spoken about it for so long, but the story has really changed the the past couple weeks and you've always been very disciplined about how you think about sizing and and the like, but obviously we touched on the fact that we we personally bought more after the the deal came out. How do you think about that? Yeah, I mean like we kind of think twos, fours, sixes in our in our fund and and this is this sits within our smaller opportunities fund rather than a big fund. At times when we were talking about potentially helping them with a capital solution, we were entertaining the idea of of of maybe entering into our larger fund. that um within our smaller opportunities funds, it it was originally a kind of a 3% position. Like when we got comfort that maybe they were going to come along and and potentially ex accept our proposal to kind of fund the the company then with with a capital raise and we're thinking of potentially taking it higher because I could see the potential um on the day of the announcement even though it was only a 3% position. I just we just thought it was just too attractive an opportunity with the riskreward having improved from the deal and potentially like at least a dollar worth of value sitting there at you know 33 cents that we just had to upsize it. Um now whether it stays in that upsized state so it's got it's gone above a 4% position now which is one of the larger positions in that opportunities fund but um yeah it's not we haven't bet the absolute farm on it. We're not taking a 10 to 20% position because that's just not how we we position size at Chester. But um it is one of the larger positions just because we see the risk riskreward is extremely attractive. Um yeah, >> I I like it. Kev, is there is there anything in the in the narrative in in the story or in the thesis that we that we kind of haven't touched upon? >> Uh I'd love for you to guys to do a deep dive on Bob Johnson and and some of the interesting kind of history that he's had with Maptech because it is a pretty interesting story. or I think the whole map kept story and then I think there was some interesting kind of court cases that might have evolved revolved around Bob um and I'm not quite sure where they all got to but there was there was certainly some late night reading I did that was pretty interesting on the matter um I'm not sure how much that has impacted decision-m um positively or negatively but um there's certainly some interesting features around him and um what else what else around the story I mean I I just think that maybe we might see some other interlopers. Maybe I mean that data room has been open a long time and and you know we were personally approached by a few parties that were were interested in that asset and the conversations we' had with other parties in Perth suggest that maybe there are others that are extremely interested and um I don't know how you know things these things work when one person's interested all of a sudden you've got other people interested you know like I remember when I was a single guy as soon as you had one girl that was interested in you all of a sudden you get a few more other offers so um yeah m maybe there's going to be a couple of parties that come out But I mean, you know, we've got two months and it'll be interesting over Christmas to see what unfolds. You know, if if nothing else unfolds, then I'm pretty happy with the way that Sandfire deal looks on on paper, right? And hopefully we'd see that drisk over time as as people see, then kind of I guess enter into that that binding and you get hopefully get a Sandfire share distributed to you as a as a Havler shareholder or whatever it is and um see how things play out from there. >> Yeah, absolutely. how the uh the company goes about allocating the the funds is is the kind of next step to think through if if no interloper emerges. Kev, it's always awesome to to have you on the show to to chat through your ideas and and your thinking. So, I appreciate you coming on again, mate. >> I I do like to say that I I I don't usually like to peg myself to one stock, but I mean, I did promise you guys during the Christmas cracker special that like whenever something transpired with this company because I was a bit mysterious about it. I don't like being too mysterious. I'm usually pretty transparent with everything that I do. But I did say that when something happened with this company that had come on. So this was as as I promised. Um I didn't expect to honestly take November till it occurred. I honestly thought it was going to be a couple of months away at the time when we filmed it, but as you know with all these things. Sometimes everything takes a little bit longer than you hope. Um but let's see what happens. I I seriously think there might be another chapter to this story. Um but there certainly will be, but it's just whether or not there's another chapter in between kind of the end of end of January in terms of another bid. So fingers crossed and let's see how we go. Fingers crossed, mate. Let's see if the uh the next Christmas prediction is as good as this one. >> Fingers crossed for a for a special gift from Santa this Christmas, mate. >> I don't even mind if it comes in January. >> Well, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I maybe maybe getting an M&A specialist on to to figure out what's the best kind of time to lob a bid, but I know some people that have tried over Christmas when it's >> it's hard work. It's it's pretty it's pretty inconvenient for some people, but you know, it certainly puts pressure on other parties during that time. So, we'll see what happens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely does put pressure on No, appreciate you. Appreciate. And what's the next Hava Cav? Got anything else in the works? Anything for us to study up? >> Oh, I can I can recycle some of the old names that we've got. I mean, like we still think there's a deal to be done on Comet Ridge. Um, and I get what you're saying about the Tum Trough, but I seriously think there's still a deal to be done there. I think you know 400 um BCF worth of gas that you know is still unencumbered apart from one small contract on it. Um I'm also really interested in this equis gas that's coming onto the market in December. I think that looks really interesting. Um you know it's it's almost 2TCF worth of gas with 40 million barrels of condensate that's coming on with a an EV of maybe 20 $25 million which I think might be a bit mispric. I think it's complexity with that asset as well but I think the price tag that's coming on it is it's pretty attractive. Um, I still think there's a lot to come from from developing Bill. Um, we just was out without a wood lawn. I guess I did kind of make a joke about his his ramp up, but I I think that's back on track now. I think I think the the ramp up's looking pretty good and I'm looking forward to the next couple of quarters that they produce there. Um, oh, what else? There's there's quite a few. I mean, Antifa, we're still waiting on some some resolution there, maybe. So, there's a few. >> There is indeed, mate. Well, >> I need to read up on there. appreciate appreciate you um yeah being being willing to bang bang the table >> on this one. >> No m there's one thing I I'll never stop doing that's banging the table on on the stocks. I know I should have I should have done the big ding ding ding but obviously you can tell I'm Michelle. So >> ding ding ding all around if that is not completely obvious. >> Put the dinging going through the whole episode. Just make sure that people realize that this is a completely biased opinion. Um >> yeah, >> but like >> brought to you by biased people. >> Yeah. Like I'd love to I'd love to hear some retort like cuz when you see it on paper and you see it's binding and you see like the deal that's been struck. I mean obviously there are retortters cuz people are selling the stock at 42 43 cents but I just kind of think the risk water here is pretty pretty attractive. >> I think putting your views out there is the best way to get the feedback mate. So keen to hear what comes back our way after this. >> I'm sure I'm sure I'll get some stuff >> one way or another. >> There you go. See how we go. >> Ding ding ding if it wasn't loud and clear. >> There we go mate. Fantastic to have Cav back on the show. It's been far too long. Always love chatting with our good man and all made possible thanks to our fantastic partners Switch Technology new one at the beginning of the show there as well as the classics Sanvic Ground Support Focus the platform by market and in links money miners huru. >> Now remember I'm an idiot JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out as
The Copper Sleeper that Nobody’s Watching
Summary
Transcript
Travis Rickardo, we've got a bit of a different episode today, don't we? >> It is. It is a bit different. We've we've coached our our good friend Anthony Kavanaaugh, Cav as um as we call him, of of Chester. I think he runs the Chester Opportunities Fund. One of Cav's, you know, things he's been talking about a fair bit. In fact, he he alluded to this stock and this company, this opportunity when we when we spoke to him a year ago um when we did our like funny predictions. This is a you know a copper junior that Cav he's he's had a long history with. We're going to peel that out why it's interesting to him why he sort of you know why he thinks there's a special situation on hand right now and we've probably just got to get out of the way disclaimers up front mate. We own stock in this company which is Hava Resources. Ding, ding, ding. We're conflicted. Ignore any of our perspectives from that angle or just just take it with a grain of salt. >> But I I think it's super entertaining for a number of reasons. Kev has wanted to do this episode for a long time. It's a fascinating company as he explains in the whole story. He got involved quite some time ago, but he's just such an interesting thinker. To understand and hear from him how he tried to sort of create value here is both entertaining and insightful. And for that reason, I'm pretty keen to to share this story on the back of obviously the deal with StandFire that's come out. >> Yeah, mate. I I totally agree. Hopefully, money managers, you get some value. We invite a bit of feedback on this one. If you've got a a contrary perspective to us and Cav, drop a comment. Let us know let us know why why um our view might be with the wrong view. >> I'm sure it'll come back one way or another. >> Yeah, >> mate. We've got a new partner as well, Switch Technologies. I'm very excited to share this. Yeah, >> tell me about Switch, mate. Mate, Switch are an engineering company based right in the heart of Perth. They got 5,000 square meters in the middle of North Bridge. It's an old Toyota facility there. And what they do is really cool. 25 engineers working in the company. And they are a bunch of problem solvers, mate. So, if you are running a process plant, you're at a mining company in one form or another and you've got problems you want solved, Switch is the team you need to get in in touch with. >> So, they turn ideas into into solutions. >> That's it. They execute the ideas. And I'm sure there's people at mining sites right now that have a bunch of ideas and they just don't have the bandwidth to execute on them. So Switch are the team you need to get in touch with. We've got Mike's details in the show notes which you can check out. But they've also got a bunch of solutions that they've put into the market out there right now. So they had this wicked project with Pilra Minerals. They retrofit a CAT 785 ton dump truck. Put this wicked hybrid system in there. So a bunch of really cool things >> existing mechanical >> Yeah. truck with with a hybrid hybrid retrofit. It's really >> all happening here in Perth, mate. >> Cost savings off the back of it. And that is that is um a big part of the message here, mate. These are cutting edge kind of tech where there's a commercial business case and it saves dollar per ton because this is their expertise, their capability. JD, I thought here's here's here's my pitch to switch. This is to you, Mike. I've got some ideas myself on how you might be able to save some dollars per ton in your processing facilities. First one here, mate. >> I call this one the stop running it till it explodes alert system. So you you have a little sensor box and it warns you when a pump or a gearbox it's about to become a crime scene instead of being run proudly into the ground because it survives survived the last shift. >> That sounds like a problem switch can help you with. >> Second one, don't know if this one's better. I call it the stop over grinding everything meal whisperer. So this just just a control overlay system that stops the meal from you know turning decent 200 micron feed into baby powder. >> Not bad. Not bad. I'm sure I'm sure the folks out there at the mine sites have hundreds of these problems. >> They're probably better problems than I can with. >> They're probably very real world problems, mate. And it's a good thing we've got people like Switch solving these problems for us. >> If you got an idea, just email Mike switchtenologies.com. He will come up with well, they will come up with the solution for your problems to save you money. Go switch. >> All right, let's let's rip in. We've got a hell of a story to tell. How do we I don't know how to intro this story other than to say um Cav through knowing you, you've you've lured us into the appeal of a a very intriguing uh South Australian undeveloped copper stock called Hava HIV. We own stock in this. We are conflicted. Anything that comes out of here like just assume that that you know we have every incentive for the for for an outcome higher than where the share price is today. So discount everything we're going to say from that perspective. But we bought shares on market with our own money. So hopefully there's some alignment on that front. Um I I don't even know where to begin here, mate. Because um I actually did check my notes and I'm like where did it begin for me? Like it was kind of one of those stories as a South Australian and someone who's caught up in the I guess the mania of copper and everyone trying to find a a copper asset to develop. You kind of look at everything that's available, right? And it turns out the first I guess instance that I had with the company was actually April 2022 and it was in kind of the madness of it was one of the lockdowns in Melbourne where a lot of people couldn't actually get out of the state and I was in Adelaide at the time with my family and UBS had organized a visit to some Adelaide companies and a lot of them were at the time you say subscale and semi-economic but amongst it you know when saw OS Minerals and we saw an a few of the the larger plays, but in the mix was Havla. And so at the time it was like a $60 million company. And I remember going out there and seeing all the optionality of the assets and just turning to a few of the guys going that was really interesting, but like it's a $60 million company. Like what the hell was going on here? And there's a family member of mine who' previously mentioned it to me and I called them up and I'm like, "What what were you telling me about?" They're like, "Oh yeah, it's my only PA position and I think you should really take a look at it." I'm like, "Oh, look. It's probably too small for us. Really subscale." And on that same day, we saw Oz Minerals later in the ARO and Oz Minerals was talking about how they've done these deep dives and all the copper assets literally globally, not just in Australia. And I couldn't help but think to myself, maybe there's something in it. like the conversation we'd had from Havler needing a big capital partner to to help develop that asset to Oz Minerals needing a ready to develop copper asset that literally had done all the expiration work. They just needed to get into production. And I was kind of like at the time it was one of those thoughts you never really do any like gez there's something probably there but nothing's going to happen and then I can't remember when exactly the deal got consummated but it would have been say six months later down the track that OS Minerals ended up kind of putting an offer on to that asset in Karoo. >> Yeah there was an option an option agreement that they they entered there from memory. >> Yeah 100%. And at the time I was just like, "Wow." Like one of those instances where just fortuitously you saw the two companies in the same day, both South Australian companies, you thought maybe it'd be great synergies to see those two together. One needing capital, one with capital, one wanting a growth project, one needing desperately a growth partner. And then they come together and you're like, "Oh, wow. We were there." And I send a message to some of the guys that are on the same site visit going, "Isn't that neat that that kind of happened together?" And kind of nothing came of it at the time. And just like, yeah. And I mean I think at the time it was probably around a $400 million deal. I know there was different structures to what the the recent SFI deal has been announced, but lo and behold, obviously the BHP OS minerals takeover occurred and in the mix was kind of like this small asset that probably didn't really fit within the BHP portfolio. obviously didn't the way kind of transpired but at the time you're like what's going to happen with the with that asset and I started getting interested probably as a potential investment thesis went I got a feeling that Havler had gotten to 27 cents at the time which would have been I'm going to say about 100 million market cap maybe no probably even less when it was kind of almost it felt to me 50/50 almost whether BHP was going to kind of progress with that option that that OS Minerals had originally entered into once they' taken over OS Minerals. But yeah, then BHP kind of reneged from that option and it kind of I think oh I I should pull up my chart but from memory Hava went down to like I think 15 or 16 cents and everyone just thought there's there's nothing here but all the information that I was hearing from everyone involved was that Havler was going to be well technically it stood up. It's just that it was too small for BHP. It had no technical flaws. There was a lot of uh interest in the asset because of the grades, because of the oxide layer that sat on the top. Uh because of the location and because of some of the expiration hits nearby it almost, you know, became a province play in um Hava. it kind of nothing really was ever going to happen at that stage because uh it just was became one of those small cap companies that just didn't have the capital and didn't have the eyeballs and no offense to the management team but I don't think it was marketed appropriately. Um, so we I'm happy happy to go whatever direction you want to take those kind of comments. But >> I remember I remember you first like mentioning it to us like yeah must must have been >> subsequent to that option lapsing that that BHP let lapse and um I remember you saying like I still think it was a good trade because you know what was the probability that BHP excis that option or not yada yada and even though the stock fell like you still I remember you articulating to us that you still thought that was a good a good a good bet to have made. Then um another bit of context on this. I'd heard from someone that the the the BHP um like you know deal with OS Minerals is part of the rationale why OSM minerals signed the option agreement in the first place with Hav like maybe maybe that option agreement was actually part of the defense you know value negotiation um stance from from OS Minerals in the first place. Maybe they didn't actually necessarily have the view to exercise that option, but at least having that on the table gave them some legs to negotiate an uplift in price from from BHP, which ultimately did come to fruition. But you still zoom out and you think there were two two copper projects in Osmineral's backyard that they could have chosen from and and the knock on both of them for the longest period of time is that they haven't come knocking on on either of them. And that was that was Rex Mineral Hillside and that was um Hava's Calkaroo. And the one that they they you know did a at least a paper deal on um was was Havas Karoo. >> Yeah, I I definitely heard something similar. So in amongst my interest in this company, I've spoken to most of the key players I think that have been involved with it. um Exos mineral staff members um other people associated with the deal, geologists who who've looked at the data, people within the South Australian government, um all types of different parties just to understand why this asset still sat there as like this undeveloped asset that has approximately.9% copper equivalent grade for an open pit. It almost became a semi-obsession of mine to understand why this asset was still left undeveloped. Um, I think it might have those conversations might have progressed one night over dinner when there was another buddy of mine guest that kind of had been on your show when I was discussing with him what his thoughts were and potentially trying to progress a deal with them and and I could I could take you through a story, but I don't necessarily want to reveal who that was in case they they don't necessarily want their name to be associated with it. Um but um certainly worked our own angle to try and help the management team I guess liberate value from this asset. Um and there was probably I would say at least three different approaches to that um to the management team of this company between oh let's say 2020 20 late 2023 and probably early to mid 2025 um in different forms >> and that's three from three from you and and your group CV not to mention the the others that we >> correct >> that have sort of you know we bit inferred that have approached the company with with alternate proposals Yeah, correct. So I would say that I I kind of almost had a investment consortium and I was inspired by someone I'd seen had put together a few deals of a similar type of uh I guess methodology to what I was thinking and that like if we could help them I guess build out their management team a little and also kind of help capitalize the balance sheet, it might give them a bit of a a stronger footing to go approach the investment community uh with a more institutional type um of company than than what they what they have I mean they've they've operated at a pretty shoestring budget uh as long as I've known them um and gone by peace mill with their own drill rig and I kind of thought to myself well if you can actually have the money behind this company and actually be well capitalized with a pathway to getting a feed completed with your own capital and you actually bulk out the management team you know there was a few guys at mirrors I would have loved to say that we were able to get Andrew Cole and convince him to come join the board or or the management team of Havlin which My original original thought it wasn't to be, but there was a few guys in the mix and I I don't I don't want to say who they were in case they didn't want to be named either, but we' spoken to a few guys that we thought might have been appropriate to to help with the management team there and and thought what what we had was a good proposal, including maybe a corporate that might have given some added credibility um to the project and to the asset. Um, and so yeah, like the most recent approach, and I might have alluded to it in your Christmas crackers special, like I I did mention the fact that I was I was pretty interested in a couple of copper plays, and one of them was this potential deal that we were we were thinking about at the time. Um, but obviously that deal didn't eventuate. At the time, I was kind of a bit confused as to why management would rebuff such a such an approach. I mean, um, us potentially helping them fund their balance sheet and take that project to a to a PFS level, um, and also do some further exploration drilling, which is kind of what the Sandfire dealers look like. So, maybe they did learn something from from our our approaches, uh, is kind of what the Sandfire dealers kind of come out with, but we were going to help them to basically develop it to a to a PFS stage themselves or to a preID stage themselves. Um, yeah. So, there's a lot to it, but what I think has transpired ultimately is that there's been a lot of people that have have looked at the asset, and most of the feedback I've had is that there's been no technical flaws with the asset, which is the same feedback that we've had from our independent technical experts that have looked at it. Um, >> they've had an open data room for for a very long time here. Right. >> Yeah, correct. they have had an open data room and there's been quite a number of parties I believe that have gone through that data room. Uh our fund had personally been approached by two or three of those parties um asking for opinions, advice um asking for someone that might actually be able to push management in a certain direction. Um so I was certainly around diggers expecting that maybe something might occur of of this type of standing. Um, that's not to say we're 100% happy with the price or the way the share price has reacted since, but um, there's certainly been a number of parties that have expressed interest and done the detail as far as I'm aware on on the asset. And I mean, my my business colleague and I, uh, Rob, we we were in Perth 12 months ago, I'd say now. And I remember having the meetings with most of the companies in Perth um you know your your standard companies and you know your South 32s, your Sandfires, your even some of the gold names and the consistent feedback we kept getting was that everyone would have loved a developable developable copper asset in Australia, right? And it just was consistent over and over again. Oh, we'd just love a 50,000 ton premium asset in Australia for copper. And obviously, you know, MAC was there, but you know, that was already developed and you you had to pay a pretty full price tag is what we've seen, Harmony, to acquire that asset. But everyone just consistently said, "We'd love a developable copper asset in Australia." And I just kept thinking to myself, well, has anyone actually looked at this asset? I mean, I know that there's been some assets up in Queensland that have transacted and obviously the Rex Minerals deal, but my understanding of of Rex is it's, you know, probably more pristine pasture land than than what they have in Broken Hill. the grade is probably a little bit lower. Um, and it's probably a bit bit more complexity in the build at at Rex's project than there is at Karoo. So, >> yeah, it was that Rex deal that got JD and I very interested in Hava because the moment you saw this, you know, >> $400 million deal for Rex, it was like, well, if Oz thought that Hava was the better asset and and and this company's got a market cap, I think at the time was like 60 65 million bucks or something like that. We touched on the the Wenu one as well, which you know has an asterisk to it. >> You stole my Woo Thunder, right? I think I was after the Wow deal got announced. I think I sent you a message similar to the line of >> if we know he's worth XXX then Kakaroo is worth dot dot dot. And I think you used that and put out a tweet at the time, but at the time you were trying to kind of I guess >> keep discreet the fact that like Havler and Kakaroo were the companies and the and the copper name that I was talking about in my Christmas cracker. But anyway, >> yes. >> Um what B will be. But um less we sit today. I mean we could we could delve into the deal cuz I'm I'm still sitting here going >> before the deal. Let's talk about the the share registry of Hav like why is there been an impediment to to I don't know do a deal like what's the the shareholder dynamic and the influence on the company. It's not necessarily a bad one. There's just a a hold out on on value. >> Yeah. >> Someone actually asked me about this today. They're like oh what can you tell me about the uh the left share registry? And I'm I'm like well it's pretty devoid of institutions. I think there might be one or two. Uh some of them aren't necessarily institutions in your black and white scheme of institutions. Uh there's an interesting character called Bob Johnson. Um and I I don't think we've got enough time to go through the whole history of Bob, but um Bob was the founder of of Havler. Y >> also the founder of a company called Maptech. >> Big company. >> Um >> big company. Yeah. And Bob has a lot of influence within the company to the point where I had presented to the board previously some of my thoughts on on Havler and Bob was in the room at the time which I thought was interesting because um I think uh he he's basically as a material shareholder and an ex-founder of the company still has a fair bit of sway with the uh with the current board and the management team. So um sometimes to the point where it's um extremely influential. So um and his his position on the share register has been questioned at times in terms of how much stock he actually controls. Um so I think that's an interesting aspect to the whole register. And I think sometimes the company has ended up doing some things that aren't necessarily interested of all shareholders might be in the best interest of Bob but um when you're a founder of a business sometimes that's what happens. We've we've seen plenty of examples of founder le businesses doing some things this this year in particular that might not necessarily be for all shareholders but um I think he's got really interesting past Bob and um I think I I believe when I presented to him and the board that we shared some similar philosophies into what Havler and and Karoo could be for particularly South Australia and and the industry at large. I generally see kind of Karoo and the province that they're in as kind of almost been a foundational asset for copper South Australia beyond obviously there's Olympic Dam Prominent Hill and Carapatina but I think South Australia could be a lot more than that and and this province um the Caratina province that sorry the Kurtara province um that they've got has the potential for a couple of um Kaparoo lookalikes. I mean, we've seen some really interesting hits that have been there that just haven't been followed up because they haven't had the capital to drill. And I'm really excited as to what could actually transpire from some of the some of the drill holes that might be drilled with the um expiration money that Sandfire is throwing at at the province. Um so yeah, like I mean there's so much so much to it, but um I think that yeah, Bob Bob Johnson is very super interesting >> to to to the the credit of of management. It's not like they were like spending a crazy amounts of money and and diluting diluting existing shareholders a massive amount along that way. They've just been there's been a hold out for a deal that has been somewhat comparable to the one that was was tabled by by Oz Minerals. And and now as of a couple weeks ago, we've finally gotten a deal that is comparable to the the one that was tabled by Oz Minerals in 2022, which >> Do you want to run us through what what that deal was, Cav, with Sandfire? Yeah, I think I think as to your point, some of the challenges have been that like that deal being a couple years old now, it was at a copper price. I'm guessing now about three bucks 50 a pound and obviously we're about five bucks today and I'd say gold prices are probably 1,500 US and and we're you know four around 4,000 today. So you've had a pretty strong commodity price environment since the OS minerals deal when the deal implied was $400 million. So I can understand management's I guess anchoring to thinking that maybe they should be holding out for a $600 million type of price tag. But this probably comes to your original point Trav when you mentioned that some people had suggested that Havler was almost used as a bargaining chip to BHP where some people might have suspected that maybe the price tag at which OS Minerals had struck that that deal might have been probably 100 or $200 million higher than than what might have otherwise been the case if BHP wasn't lurking there as a as a as a takeover bidder that they were trying to I guess push in one direction. So that probably created some issues for management. expectations from I guess shareholders and and even themselves going well gez $400 million price tag with copper price and gold price now higher you know how can we how can we transact on anything in you know and some of the price tags that I suspect have been floating around have been $2 $300 million right and so this this deal that they've now got with with Sandfire $105 million up front script and cash so that 105 does swing around a bit with the Sandfire share us that literally gets them an option to potentially acquire another or 80% of the asset for another $105 million. So that in itself is I think extremely interesting for Hav shareholders. Um I think the price tag itself even though the headline looks like it's $210 million for 80%. You got to remember they're also funding a PFS which could be anywhere $50 million I think could be a little bit higher than that even. They're they're putting $30 million into expiration into into ground that otherwise wouldn't have seen that that type of capital spent. And then at the end of all of that, people have said to me that the biggest risk is that Sen might do all that work work and then walk away. I mean, if they did spend that money, let's call it umund what $185 million including the PFS costs and the expiration costs and then walked away. I mean, is that a risk to Havler because then they end up with 100% of this asset, right? That has had a fair bit of interest beyond just Sandfire and OS minerals >> that upfront is non is non-refundable. They get to keep the >> yeah 100% it's binding and it's non-refundable as long as >> at the EGM the shareholders vote for it to occur, right? So yeah, >> that is itself is extremely interesting. If then Sandfire wants to progress with the 80%. >> They then need to spend another $105 million in cash and script which is in itself extremely interesting. So that then sets the price tag 85 plus 105 equals what what's that 200 I bet let's call it $300 million for round numbers and that's for 80% of the asset right so then um Havler are then free carried on the remaining 20%. Almost like the onslow situation for the joint venture partners to minres now you need to pay back the capital so let's let's say this is a I don't know $1.2 two billion dollar project 20% of that you're then going to be talking $250 million that needs to be repaid from the cash flow of the asset might take two years to to repay it if I'm if I'm being optimistic and generous but >> importantly have don't have to fund that they don't have to >> don't have to fund right so you're talking about a company that's you know literally gotten buy on a shoestring and you rightly pointed out that I think management have done a really good job in controlling costs like people can call this a lifestyle company but it's not a lifestyle company that's going been going out there and spending a lot of money I think Chris has done really well for the the budget that they've had. I just I just think maybe at times they could have been a bit more market facing and kind of driven a lower cost of capital for themselves and had the ability with more capital. But what be will be that's in the past, but they've done really well with it with the budgets they've got. They're now in a position where they're going to be fully funded for that asset. Don't have to put any dollars in themselves. Gets to a point where they're going to have 20% of it that's free carry. Don't have to put in any capital. and you're getting a 20% stake in what is originally going to be probably a 40 to 50,000 ton perm project. Maybe it could get upscaled to an 80,000 ton per pan project with a 20 million ton per mill. I don't know. But at the same time in a small cap copper space, you know, as well as I do, there aren't a huge amount of ways to play it. Like we're playing develop because, you know, we we love everything that Bill's doing. Maybe not so much the wood lawn ramp up today, but I think it's going to come good. But there's not there's not many ways to play copper, right? Um, and this is kind of almost a look through at a Sandfire type of asset, a nonoperated position, an asset that's operated by Sandfire in Australia. Um, so yeah, I still think at these prices, if the look through before you even think about the 20% is $300 million for that 80% stake. And then that 20% stake, you'd assume would get transacted close to MPV. you know, if you've got Japanese or Korean money looking to buy into that project when it gets to an FID decision, I'd assume it a transacted close to NPV. Now, our MPV of the project using gold prices close to where they are now and and long-term commodity prices in line with consensus um like a copper price of $450 to 5, we get $1.5 billion Australian at 10% whack. So, that 200, so that 20%, sorry, could be worth as much as $300 million in its own right, which gets you to about a $600 million type of valuation. Now this is a small cap company that has always struggled for capital and you know has got a an interesting register as you said in a management team that I guess a lot of people in the market don't necessarily back. So you got to trade a discount to that $600 million but I was still sitting today and I think I said it to you guys the day of the deal. I thought the day after the or the day the deal had been announced particularly when it opened up at I think 33 34 cents was cheaper than it was the day before even though it was up >> 30%. And I know it's a funny thing to say, but on a riskreward basis when the asset is potentially now going to be operated by Sandfire with the clout that they have and and you know their ability to develop projects as as we've seen with MOO, I I just think it's a completely different company to what it was before. >> So Kev, with with all the work you did over over the years looking at it, the the proposals you put together, what did you actually think of the deal that that Sandfire and and the company agreed to? I've had a couple of people ask me this. Um, and I yeah, I I don't want to go too detail as to why I got asked this by someone in particular, but I actually said to this person, I I thought it was a really good deal. Um, I thought it was a really good deal and the fact that Sandfire um have entered into a binding situation whereas the OS minerals deal, there was an option over the asset for one or two years. kind of was sitting half pregnant whereas this once the EGM gets voted on assuming there hasn't been an interloper then it's binding right so Sanfire are obligated to give Havler that that that capital up front um yeah you can still say there's a question mark whether they're going to take the other 80% but that puts Havler in a very strong position at that point um I would say that the the the fact that they've still been able to retain some of the southern tenements it's 100% owned like that was one of the sticking points with anyone trying to approach the company for a fullcoming takeover is that the management team and and Bob genuinely believe in the southern tenementss there is going to be a kakaroo lookalike. Now I haven't seen all the data I I can't confirm or deny whether that's going to be the case but like Bergkate for them stands as a really interesting prospect and you know they almost have dreams that it could be bigger than Karoo. I think the fact that they're still able to retain a stake in Mutaroo, which I haven't even mentioned when I was talking about the $600 million in value that they potentially got at Karoo. Mudaroo for me, you know, 20 million tons plus at, you know, one plus% copper or some cobalt and a little bit of gold. I think stands as a really interesting asset as well and and JX Advanced Metals um from Japan have been negotiating with them on that asset. I think the exclusivity period has expired on that, but I still think there's optionality for a deal to occur there and maybe that could be $100 million of value in its own right. we we we certainly see value 100 plus particularly if they can come up with a an infrastructure solution. So, I actually think the deal ticks a lot of boxes uh in my mind. Uh, I would have loved to see a higher price, but at the same time, you know, compared to the OS Minerals deal, you know, we can we can argue how I've just cut it that maybe there is $600 million worth of value here, which, you know, means that Bob and Chris did the right thing in in not kind of selling out the company for a cheaper price or selling the asset at a cheaper price than what they have because, you know, if they if Sandfire can get this project to an FID decision and then if they did want to sell that 20% stake, which is free carried and maybe you can get 200 million plus for it. Um then yeah, maybe we can see 500 $600 million worth of value, which with where the share price is trading, like I get it's a small cap. I get that there's been a discount for this team and and everything associated with it, but I don't know what the appropriate discount is. I just think it's way too much at the moment, right? Like >> yeah, >> I mean, >> think of the day the day the deal was announced. It was 34 cents and the upfront consideration alone was 30 cents per share on the you know just it was a it's a table banger and now it's like like trading like 43 40ish 43 44 cents per share and um yeah the see the see-through even after tax you can you can be constructive on and so $150 million right so you know you're literally paying for the upfront capital and maybe muru >> not even like you're paying for the upfront capital you're paying for the respiration they're going to spend and you're paying some of the PFS costs. So, um yeah, like you've literally got a free option at their 20% free carried holding. You got a free option that StandFire comes on, gives them another $15 million, which what's what's that? It's 22 cents, I think. Um yeah, so like I I still see kind of a dollar as being a reasonable line in the sand, right? Um and that's 350 million bucks um at this stage of where they're at. that may maybe the market's waiting for the EGM vote to go through because I if you look back at the the history of this company, there has been some some funny situations with assets in the past where deals have been voted back. But um yeah, I mean it's extremely interesting where it's sitting today. >> There's an EGM vote end of Jan and and if there's if there if there were any other like interest in the asset, you've effectively got you've got to move before that EGM. >> Yeah, 100%. So like like when I said I like the deal, I think another aspect that I like about the deal is there's been question marks whether the process that they've run has been as thorough as it could be and whether it's created enough competitive tension. Um I I don't know the ins and outs of that whole process because it's you know subject to confidentiality agreements but now we've got a very live auction right so if you are really interested in this asset and you want to acquire it you've got until the end of January and what it'll be will be right as as a shareholder like if no one else bids for the asset and it comes the end of January I'll say then Sandfire won the auction and fair play to them it's still a really good price and and the share price certainly doesn't reflect what that price is but if someone else is interested then we're going to find that out hopefully before the end of January and um yeah and and and we'll see what what we'll be. >> What one one of the other interesting details here is that the stock just doesn't trade that much. The the the liquidity is pretty low and obviously you got the massive shareholders and and a few others uh speaking for a good few percent here and there which all culminates in in a good few but as always is the case on the day of the deal you see heightened volume but even on that day it it wasn't massive. It's it's a few percent of the company and that's completely died down. So to that end, if if somebody were to come in and and try and buy a stake, they're they're not going to have an awful lot of luck without pushing the share price up in my mind at least. Do you see that the same way? >> Yeah, I think that's right. And I think uh yeah, what can I say? Um I I would suspect that maybe parties might have tried to consider acquiring the whole company and maybe that might have been a bit too hard. Hence, they've had to negotiate in this type of fashion. like if if I was stand I would have thought it'd just be easier to to try and acquire the whole business, right? Um and I I don't know if they approached him um with that proposal. I know other parties in the past have done so and and it's been harder because of like some of the desires of Bob and Chris and and you know they pretty much don't want to see this asset go at almost any price but eventually they got to realize the limits of their capital and and and other shareholders desires. So yeah, I think that at the right if the right approach was made, I think they'd have to entertain the consideration of the whole company being acquired. But um I mean, if we can see $600 million worth of value in that deal, like you're going to have to see a price a fair bit higher than where it is today to to at least entertain an offer. >> Um can we talk about NOX knocks to the thesis, Cav? Um one one that comes up a bit is is is Met. What do you say to that critique? >> I'm just going to say I'm I'm not technical. I'm not a a GEO. I'm not a I'm not a engineer or any any stretch of the imagination that the people that I have spoken to and and I have kind of I wouldn't say uh what's the what's the correct word? Um I've certainly asked a lot of people who've looked at this in detail their opinions and people that I trust, family members that have the expertise and the technical knowhow. And I'd say that a lot of the the commentary that I received back is that a lot of a lot of the mistakes that get made is that people just think you can just blend the oxides and the sulfides at the same time. Um the carbonates and the sulfides. And it just that's probably where you're going to get tripped up. Like you you probably need two separate processing circuits for the oxides and and for the sulfides. And if you are to process them separately um is my understanding and and all the the work that has been done on recoveries and even probably the work that BHP did that supports you know some reasonable recoveries. You're not talking high 90s but you're talking 90% types of recoveries comes from processing those in in in separate kind of circuits. Um uh yeah, I mean a number of people have mentioned it, but it's not a like the reason why the asset is where it is is it's not as simple as as it could be. You know, if it was an amazing piece of geology and it was an agrade asset, it would have already been like bought by someone. I would say that we've heard plenty of other I guess assets that you know during certain markets that most people question them, right? Like I think we've thrown out different examples where people questioned Danger, people questioned, you know, Capricorn colorinder asset, right? Like a slow grade, it's you know, tough body, whatever. But like in the right environment and the right operators, you find solutions to these types of things, right? Um there's plenty of examples where, you know, the right priced environment that these assets work. Um you know, at gold prices of a,000 bucks an ounce and copper price of 350 today, maybe Kakaru would be a bit more of a challenging asset. But like with that oxide layer that they've got on top, there's 500,000 ounces there that's in the pre-trip that if you can get the right processing circuit that can create a pretty attractive income stream to help you do the pre-trip that can help you get into the sulfides that you know then hopefully you can process at the right economics. >> The the um do you get get any comfort out of the fact that like you know Sandfire under under Brendan Harris has obviously been looking at a bunch of different growth options. This is the first first deal that they've publicly come out with since since Brendan's been M MD there. Um, you wouldn't think they they they pay themselves upfront non-refundable component of of of 105 without having some degree of comfort on on the MET themselves. Even if they they're, you know, proven to be wrong over time, like they themselves must have a view that they're constructive on on the Met to pay a non-refundable 105, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I get that everyone wants to have an opinion, but sometimes I'm I'm almost surprised that like guys on X who come out and and knock the project fail to recognize the fact that OS Minerals, BHP, Sandfire, and probably at least three or four other parties that maybe can't name at the moment have gone and done the network and said, you know, given the thumbs up and yet, you know, they've looked at old feasibility studies and some of the data that they've seen, you know, from from old announcements and gone, oh, not the MET doesn't work. And it's like, well, to your point, yeah, Sandfire have entered a non-binary agreement, right? And people will say, oh, yeah, but it's $105 million. It's an option. And I go, yeah, but this is what they're putting their name to, as you said, like they've they've looked at I don't know how many projects they've looked at, but quite a number of projects. And Minerals, I I sat down with them and they literally looked at every single copper asset that was available and and whether or not it was just a bargaining chip for BHP, you're not going to enter that type of agreement if you didn't believe in it and you hadn't done the work. So yeah, yeah, I agree. Like there's there's there's enough credibility behind the names that have put their name to it to go, well, you know, there's enough detail to show that it does work. >> So So you've, you know, you've made the the opportunity pretty clear to us. We've spoken about it a bunch, Kev. It's it's super kind of interesting. I I'm really curious to hear about how you think about sizing positioning in in the name right now because we've spoken about it for so long, but the story has really changed the the past couple weeks and you've always been very disciplined about how you think about sizing and and the like, but obviously we touched on the fact that we we personally bought more after the the deal came out. How do you think about that? Yeah, I mean like we kind of think twos, fours, sixes in our in our fund and and this is this sits within our smaller opportunities fund rather than a big fund. At times when we were talking about potentially helping them with a capital solution, we were entertaining the idea of of of maybe entering into our larger fund. that um within our smaller opportunities funds, it it was originally a kind of a 3% position. Like when we got comfort that maybe they were going to come along and and potentially ex accept our proposal to kind of fund the the company then with with a capital raise and we're thinking of potentially taking it higher because I could see the potential um on the day of the announcement even though it was only a 3% position. I just we just thought it was just too attractive an opportunity with the riskreward having improved from the deal and potentially like at least a dollar worth of value sitting there at you know 33 cents that we just had to upsize it. Um now whether it stays in that upsized state so it's got it's gone above a 4% position now which is one of the larger positions in that opportunities fund but um yeah it's not we haven't bet the absolute farm on it. We're not taking a 10 to 20% position because that's just not how we we position size at Chester. But um it is one of the larger positions just because we see the risk riskreward is extremely attractive. Um yeah, >> I I like it. Kev, is there is there anything in the in the narrative in in the story or in the thesis that we that we kind of haven't touched upon? >> Uh I'd love for you to guys to do a deep dive on Bob Johnson and and some of the interesting kind of history that he's had with Maptech because it is a pretty interesting story. or I think the whole map kept story and then I think there was some interesting kind of court cases that might have evolved revolved around Bob um and I'm not quite sure where they all got to but there was there was certainly some late night reading I did that was pretty interesting on the matter um I'm not sure how much that has impacted decision-m um positively or negatively but um there's certainly some interesting features around him and um what else what else around the story I mean I I just think that maybe we might see some other interlopers. Maybe I mean that data room has been open a long time and and you know we were personally approached by a few parties that were were interested in that asset and the conversations we' had with other parties in Perth suggest that maybe there are others that are extremely interested and um I don't know how you know things these things work when one person's interested all of a sudden you've got other people interested you know like I remember when I was a single guy as soon as you had one girl that was interested in you all of a sudden you get a few more other offers so um yeah m maybe there's going to be a couple of parties that come out But I mean, you know, we've got two months and it'll be interesting over Christmas to see what unfolds. You know, if if nothing else unfolds, then I'm pretty happy with the way that Sandfire deal looks on on paper, right? And hopefully we'd see that drisk over time as as people see, then kind of I guess enter into that that binding and you get hopefully get a Sandfire share distributed to you as a as a Havler shareholder or whatever it is and um see how things play out from there. >> Yeah, absolutely. how the uh the company goes about allocating the the funds is is the kind of next step to think through if if no interloper emerges. Kev, it's always awesome to to have you on the show to to chat through your ideas and and your thinking. So, I appreciate you coming on again, mate. >> I I do like to say that I I I don't usually like to peg myself to one stock, but I mean, I did promise you guys during the Christmas cracker special that like whenever something transpired with this company because I was a bit mysterious about it. I don't like being too mysterious. I'm usually pretty transparent with everything that I do. But I did say that when something happened with this company that had come on. So this was as as I promised. Um I didn't expect to honestly take November till it occurred. I honestly thought it was going to be a couple of months away at the time when we filmed it, but as you know with all these things. Sometimes everything takes a little bit longer than you hope. Um but let's see what happens. I I seriously think there might be another chapter to this story. Um but there certainly will be, but it's just whether or not there's another chapter in between kind of the end of end of January in terms of another bid. So fingers crossed and let's see how we go. Fingers crossed, mate. Let's see if the uh the next Christmas prediction is as good as this one. >> Fingers crossed for a for a special gift from Santa this Christmas, mate. >> I don't even mind if it comes in January. >> Well, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I maybe maybe getting an M&A specialist on to to figure out what's the best kind of time to lob a bid, but I know some people that have tried over Christmas when it's >> it's hard work. It's it's pretty it's pretty inconvenient for some people, but you know, it certainly puts pressure on other parties during that time. So, we'll see what happens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely does put pressure on No, appreciate you. Appreciate. And what's the next Hava Cav? Got anything else in the works? Anything for us to study up? >> Oh, I can I can recycle some of the old names that we've got. I mean, like we still think there's a deal to be done on Comet Ridge. Um, and I get what you're saying about the Tum Trough, but I seriously think there's still a deal to be done there. I think you know 400 um BCF worth of gas that you know is still unencumbered apart from one small contract on it. Um I'm also really interested in this equis gas that's coming onto the market in December. I think that looks really interesting. Um you know it's it's almost 2TCF worth of gas with 40 million barrels of condensate that's coming on with a an EV of maybe 20 $25 million which I think might be a bit mispric. I think it's complexity with that asset as well but I think the price tag that's coming on it is it's pretty attractive. Um, I still think there's a lot to come from from developing Bill. Um, we just was out without a wood lawn. I guess I did kind of make a joke about his his ramp up, but I I think that's back on track now. I think I think the the ramp up's looking pretty good and I'm looking forward to the next couple of quarters that they produce there. Um, oh, what else? There's there's quite a few. I mean, Antifa, we're still waiting on some some resolution there, maybe. So, there's a few. >> There is indeed, mate. Well, >> I need to read up on there. appreciate appreciate you um yeah being being willing to bang bang the table >> on this one. >> No m there's one thing I I'll never stop doing that's banging the table on on the stocks. I know I should have I should have done the big ding ding ding but obviously you can tell I'm Michelle. So >> ding ding ding all around if that is not completely obvious. >> Put the dinging going through the whole episode. Just make sure that people realize that this is a completely biased opinion. Um >> yeah, >> but like >> brought to you by biased people. >> Yeah. Like I'd love to I'd love to hear some retort like cuz when you see it on paper and you see it's binding and you see like the deal that's been struck. I mean obviously there are retortters cuz people are selling the stock at 42 43 cents but I just kind of think the risk water here is pretty pretty attractive. >> I think putting your views out there is the best way to get the feedback mate. So keen to hear what comes back our way after this. >> I'm sure I'm sure I'll get some stuff >> one way or another. >> There you go. See how we go. >> Ding ding ding if it wasn't loud and clear. >> There we go mate. Fantastic to have Cav back on the show. It's been far too long. Always love chatting with our good man and all made possible thanks to our fantastic partners Switch Technology new one at the beginning of the show there as well as the classics Sanvic Ground Support Focus the platform by market and in links money miners huru. >> Now remember I'm an idiot JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out as