Precious Metals: Guest remains bullish on gold and silver, expecting short-term volatility but higher prices into Q1 amid record levels and strong outperformance versus the S&P 500.
Gold: Multiple drivers include elevated geopolitical risk, persistent inflation pressures, and concerns over a weaker, more prolonged global recovery through 2027.
Silver: Record pricing above $50 is attributed more to macro uncertainty than a true global shortage; localized tightness (notably India) has eased as metal shifted to London and ETFs liquidated.
Copper: Discussed as a critical mineral with supportive factors such as stockpiling, U.S. tariffs on semi-finished products, and supply issues (e.g., Indonesia), contributing to a constructive backdrop.
Deglobalization: The anti-globalization trend, tariffs, and a shift toward a multi-polar order are seen as persistent, reinforcing demand for gold as a hedge against political and economic instability.
Recession Risk: Outlook calls for a significant but less severe, more prolonged recession in the 2025–2027 window, with subpar recovery and expansion afterward weighing on risk assets.
Fed & Markets: The Fed is unlikely to respond to an equity-led selloff (even from AI leaders); policy easing and ending QT are interpreted as concern over real economic conditions, not stock indices.
Companies Mentioned: Nvidia (NVDA) and Freeport-McMoRan (FCX) were referenced in context (AI bubble risk, copper supply) but not pitched as investments.
Transcript
Silver's never been above $50 until well, October and November. Now, we've had silver basically trading above silver uh $50 for most of the last two months. Unprecedented. The cat's out of the bag and markets are not going to necessarily exhale just because there's some relaxation of the negative economic pressures that we are experiencing today. And people have said, "What comes after the dollar?" And no one has come up with a a viable answer. >> The entire market and not just the precious metals market, but a lot of investors outside the precious metal space are wondering what's next for gold and silver because they've been signaling a lot of things for the economy. We'll find out what those things are. We'll find out what's next for the economy. We'll find out what's next for precious metals. and we'll find out uh what the signals are since gold and silver have been trading uh sideways and they've been outperforming the S&P 500 for quite some time now. Year to date, uh they've both beaten stocks. So, what does this mean? Jeff Christian's back. He's the managing partner of the CPM Group. Welcome back, Jeff. Uh good to see you. >> Thank you for having me back, David. >> Yeah, your calls have always been spot on. People can verify my last statement by going to our last interview with Jeff and he's a regular on the show and uh he's been calling for higher gold prices, but uh he's been also calling for some caution right now. Is this a time for caution for gold and silver right now? And then we'll jump into the economy right after this. >> Well, our our view is that the gold price and the silver price both are probably headed higher. Uh but right now, you know, we've we've been in a situation where the price rose very sharply from late August into October. uh from October through November, we've had two months now of very volatile sideways movements in gold, silver, platinum, and palladium, and copper for that matter, too. And and our expectation is that we're not quite out of the woods, that we could continue to see that short-term volatility. uh maybe for a couple weeks in December, but then we think that toward the end of the year and into the first quarter, we will see higher gold and silver prices. And again, it basically stems from our having a rather negative view of economic and political conditions in 2026. >> Okay, I will get uh Jeff's point forecast for gold and silver towards the middle part of this interview later in our discussion. So stay tuned. This will be a great talk. Jeff, let's talk about your economic outlook. You mentioned to me several times that 2026 potentially is the turning point for the economy uh that we're going to get a recession. Um that still your view? >> We have had the view for several years that we would see a rather severe recession in 2025 2027 in that time frame. And what we've done over the last several months, you know, 2025 has been a difficult year for a variety of reasons. And not just at the CPM group, but economists around the world have really struggled to try to figure out where the economy is going to go. There have been a lot of changes uh partly because of the Trump administration's ascendancy in early January. And over the course of 2025, we've wrestled with our long-term economic outlook. We take our economic projections out 10 years. We have said for some time that we thought there'd be a very deep recession and steep recession in this time period. We've changed that view in the last three or four months, September through November. We've modified our 10-year economic outlook. We still expect a recession 20. It could really emerge in the second half of 2025. We just don't have the economic uh statistics to to verify that. But we're seeing signs of economic weakness. But you know, we still expect a relatively significant recession between now and 2027. Uh not as severe as we had been thinking, but more prolonged. And we had been saying for for several years that we thought that when you get into the recovery and then the expansion period after the recession, you would see subpar economic growth. So that the on a on a global basis, the world would not respond and come out of that recession as strongly as it has in p uh past recovery periods from the 1980s through 2021. Um, and what we're seeing now is maybe a less deep recession in 2026, but an even weaker economic recovery and expansion uh going forward over the next several years. >> What would change your mind on a weaker economy? >> Data that uh we've seen stronger economic activity than we expect. uh a change in the anti-globalistic uh you know there's this anti-globalization trend that's been going on for several years and it's accelerated uh and there the tra trade and tariff talks you know economic growth not only in the United States and Canada but on a global basis is heavily tied to global trade and global trade has helped fuel pretty strong economic conditions over for the last 25 years or so and that is at risk. So if we saw a reversal of the the nivism and the isolationism and the anti-globalization and the trade and tariff uh restrictions, if we saw a reversal of that, that would in our view signal that the economy could be stronger, uh economic and financial stability could be greater than we expect. And that would be headwinds for gold and silver to some extent. Well, let's uh let's follow up and uh let's see what happens in next quarter. Uh some changes that we can expect uh the Fed to end QT and uh we may see Yeah, we may see the in the springtime a new Fed share. Uh we may see uh well, let's see what the data says in regards to the labor market now that the government shutdown is over. But focusing on the Fed, do you expect more liquidity to prolong this economic expansion and potentially delay any signs of a contraction? >> Yeah, we've often said people kept saying, well, you know, the Fed has got to uh reduce it the pace of of clo closing out reducing its balance sheet and the Fed has to lower interest rates more sharply. And we have always said, be careful what you wish for because the Fed's not going to lower interest rates and it's not going to end its QT program until it really sees severe economic problems. So the Fed is now once more reducing interest rates and it's ending or it's modifying well it's ending its QT program for now. That tells us that the Fed which has the best econ a largest and best economic projection research team in the world. The Fed is very much concerned about a state of the US economy. >> Gold prices have continuously hit all-time highs this year in 2025. Stellar Gold in the mining industry is a name worth watching. 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Do you think that a sharp stock market correction triggered by entirely company dependent news in the tech sector, in other words, devoid of macro forces, could prompt the Fed to act. So, let's say Nvidia misses earnings or let's say the AI bubble that people have been talking about start to pop and investors are pulling capital away. That sinks the entire market. Does that trigger Fed action? I don't think it does. You know, we're of the camp. There are people who don't like the Fed who say that the Fed actually responds to changes in the stock market. the there there's every indication that it doesn't that the Fed actually does live up to its mandate to try to target uh full employment and and as low of inflation as it can maintain on a sustained basis. So we don't think that a Fed everybody sees the Fed the the stock market in a bubble. Everybody knows that the increase in the indices have reflected a few companies many of which are very spurious in their nature uh rising very sharply while the majority of equities have not done so well. So there's a great expectation that at some point US equity prices will come down and come down sharply. I don't think the Fed will react to that. the Fed will react to the real economy, uh, employment, overall economic activity, and inflation. >> I'm going to pull up a chart referencing something I mentioned in the beginning of the video, which is that gold have gold and silver have dramatically outperformed the stock market. Now, if you take a look at my screen, I'm just going to show a one-mon rolling um chart of gold versus the S&P 500, which is a blue line. Gold is the bar chart. Uh, right now, you're looking at 2020 versus 2021. And in most time periods in which the stock market has performed in the bull market, uh stocks have kind of outperformed slightly if not dramatically. Now, uh when we have when we had cases of bare markets, for example, 2022, gold being a more defensive asset has outperformed. But we're looking specifically at what happens during a bull market. It is rather rare at least to my observation when scrolling back on this chart that we have a bull market in the stock market uh accompanied by dramatic not even minor but dramatic outperformance in gold up 57% year-to date 58% year-to date while the S&P is only up 16.5%. What does this signal to you? >> Well, it signals several things to us. First off, it signals to us that there is in fact a tremendous amount of liquidity that's on the sidelines right now. We have more money and more money in cash than ever before on a global basis and investors, institutional and and individual investors are struggling to figure out where to put it. And I think that what we've seen over the course of 2025 is that investors have said, "Okay, the economy is doing okay. The stock market's doing well. We have these things going on with the AI and other uh in um equities. So I will continue to invest in the stock market on a short-term basis, you know, the next year or so. But I also have tremendous economic and financial and political concerns. So, I'm also going to be moving assets into gold and silver. So, you've got investors sort of saying, I want a diversified portfolio. I'm playing gold and silver as a long game and I'm playing the stock market as a shorter term gain. And we've seen, you know, with our investors, we've seen an increase of investors this year saying to us, okay, you guys have been talking about stronger gold and silver prices for years, peaking in the period 2025, 2027. We're at the levels that you were targeting and we're at the time period that you're targeting. So on the one hand, we'd say, well, we're hitting those peaks. maybe we should liquidate, but we don't want to liquidate because we have these long-term political and economic concerns. So, instead of working with us to liquidate these long positions, work with us to hedge them. So, we have a lot of institutions uh and and individual, you know, family offices that we've been working with globally this year that are saying we want to stay long gold and silver, maybe even add to our longing uh positions, but what we really want to do is hedge this position. So we've been working with them structuring uh compound hedges u to to give them downside protection and the ability to profit if the prices do fall sharply while preserving their long physical position. That tells me investors worldwide are very much concerned about the next several years. >> Well, let's talk about the next several years starting from this year. Recently this week, uh, Ukrainian officials signed a peace deal. So, we'll see how that gets actually enacted. And also, in the last couple weeks, Trump has been more aggressive in reducing tariffs. He recently just, uh, removed tariffs on Brazilian beef and coffee. Coffee, as you know, uh, in the latest CPI report from the last month, has gone up double digits, 20some percent year-over-year. Uh, that's just one item. So it it seems like uh Trump is stepping back from tariffs a little bit and there seems to be at least for now a little more stability on the uh Eastern European front. At least all these things signal a little more geopolitical stability. My question is Jeff, why didn't gold react negatively to either of these events over the last week? It's still firmly above $4,000. Well, I think the talk of a peace agreement in Ukraine is nonsense, as do the Ukrainians, the Europeans, and the Russians. You know, Putin said, "We don't have an agreement, and what we're hearing from these talks in Geneva is not acceptable to us." The Ukraine government and the EU are saying the same thing. The EU this week said, "Listen, we will finance the Ukraine war in 2026 and 2027." And frankly, that's what Trump wanted to hear. It's not that Trump is pushing for peace between Russia and Ukraine. Trump is pushing for Europe to pay the United States for the weapons that Ukraine needs. And that's what's happening. So, I'm very pessimistic about the idea that this is a major peace uh development and clearly the markets feel the same way. Uh the same is true for example in reality with Gaza. You know that's not a that's not a definitive peace agreement. That's a ceasefire right now. And I think that the markets look at the political landscape and say okay all quiet on the western front but that could change tomorrow or it could change in January or it could change in the spring. And the same is true I think economically and in terms of the equity market. You just have a lot of people who are very skeptical about optimistic outlooks because they think that there is perhaps a lot of misperception as to what's really going on. >> Well, let me pull up another chart for your consideration here. This is gold versus tip. And I know we've you and I have talked several times in the past about how gold doesn't, you know, gold's not really a hedge against inflation. Um there's no there's no observable long-term correlation. But anyway, let me pull this chart up. So gold is here in the uh gold is the blue line this in this particular chart and then uh the bar chart is the tip ETF. Inflation expectations have risen alongside gold. Um I'll let you answer if that's correlation or causation. Uh but the second part of the question is where do you see inflation expectations going next year especially on the trade front if let's say trade uncertainty diminishes? uh tariffs stabilize and due to the base effect we have less inflation uh because prices have already gone up this year versus next year. Uh would that affect gold? Yeah. I Okay, first off, causation versus u causality versus co, you know, I think they're both both tips and gold are responding to inflation concerns and they both should be expected to respond to inflation concerns although not lock step you know. So when you start calculating the correlation between inflation and gold or other things what you find is a broad uh correlation directionally but they don't move lock step. So that's it. Now going forward our expectation is that inflation is going to be very problematic right now. If you look at the most recent data for for the US PPI and CPI and that data is like from September so it's uh a little bit out of date but what we've been seeing is inflationary pressures rising in goods uh but declining in services that's shifting now but you've got a number of problems and headlines. So even if we back off on the tariffs and and we have other issues including the fact that you've you you significantly reduce the workforce in service providers uh construction agricultural and uh agricultural processing harvesting and processing uh and a variety of other things. So you have a number of service pressures that will be continuing in 2026 at least and probably in 2027. And you also have goods pre uh inflationary pressures in the goods sector too. You have a surf of oil and gas right now. So that is causing a downward um that that's providing downward pressure on the indices. But if you take out that energy factor, you're you're seeing a lot of inflationary pressures. And I don't necessarily see those pressures going away. I don't necessarily see inflation going from 3% now to 7%. Um, but I don't necessarily see it going from 3% to 2% or lower over the next two to uh one to two years. >> Aren't recessions inherently disinflationary events, though, Jeff? There are de disinflationary pressures that occurred during a re uh recession because the demand for goods and services decline. That's what that's the definition or characteristic of of a recession. But the question is how much will demand decline relative to the declines that we're seeing in supply for goods and services? >> Silver and gold. Now silver and gold have a perfect fit on this chart year to date. Now, silver above $53 an ounce. This is rather unprecedented. The fact that it's sustained above $50 an ounce for so long. Uh I believe it's never happened before that it's been above $50 for more than a couple of days, let alone a month and a half now. Jeeoff, what do you make of this pattern? >> Well, first off, gold's never or silver's never been above $50. in in Jan January of 1980 and again in April of 2011, it approached $50 on an intraday basis, but it didn't actually cross $50 for spot silver. You know, it got there for about 10 minutes in 1980 and it got there for about 20 minutes in 2011. So, silver's never been above $50 until well, October and November. Now, we've had silver basically trading above silver uh $50 for most of the last two months, unprecedented. We're at record silver prices. We're at record gold prices. That's to be expected given the severe economic risks and uncertainties that we're facing as well as the political risks and uncertainties that we're facing. And I should say, you know, you asked earlier, even if you start seeing improvements in economic uh trends and in political uh trends, you know, you start seeing some of these things unwinding or the the the Trump administration uh backpedaling some of its more economically destructive policies. the cat's out of the bag and markets are not going to necessarily exhale just because there's some relaxation of the negative economic pressures that we are experiencing today. Can you just comment on these uh silver shortage narratives because I'm reading on on the one hand that there is uh an above ground shortage of silver but um I'm looking at um okay this is copper so it's not related to silver but I was reading uh a report from the US uh geological survey that uh since copper has been made a critical minimum we can talk about copper in just a minute there's been a huge stockpiling of copper actually all throughout the year uh on on the CME and and uh I I wonder if the same could be said of silver. Anyway, the point I'm making is is there actually a shortage of silver that's causing this giant upward pattern? In other words, some sort of squeeze going on here. >> Yeah. Well, you know, copper has uh a number of long-term and short-term factors going for it. And one of uh pushing the price up and one of the things has been the the problems that Freeport has had in Indonesia which may or may not be improving you know but that's beside the point. We're going to talk about silver. There have been dislocation. There have been locationational shortages. Uh specifically in the Indian market, uh silver, new silver supply, newly refined silver supply in the Indian market has been tight. That led to imports into India from London and other places which led to a decline in um unallocated silver inventories in London. Um these are locationational problems. On a global basis, there's plenty of silver around. And what we've seen over the last three or four months is a large amount of silver moving into London from New York and from Shanghai and from Switzerland and other markets. And you've also seen with the higher price, you've saw a significant amount of silver ETFs liquidated in the course of October. And that then shifts that metal from being allocated in London vaults to being unallocated. So the the tightness that we've seen in London has reduced significantly um and has probably been less important than a lot of uh silver marketeteers uh have suggested uh and the the situation in India remains relatively tight but it's not as bad as it was in the first half of this year but on a global basis there's plenty of silver around the problem in India and the problem on a global basis is is that most of that silver is owned by either investors or in in financial entities or industrial companies that use silver that don't necessarily care to sell the metal just because the price has risen. Uh they're very happy to continue to hold that metal. So, there's a lot of silver around, but would be additional buyers need to bid the price even higher to convince those that own the silver that it's worth taking profits. >> On August 1st, Trump imposed a 50% tariff on imports of semi-finish copper products. Now, this was before they declared the Trump administration declared copper as being a critical mineral, which happened just a week and a half ago. Were you surprised that a similar tariff was not made on silver? Silver is critical in many ways as well. >> I wasn't surprised. Uh, you know, I can't quite remember back as far as August 1st, but I remember having a very cynical view of what that was. And I thought that that was sort of putting pressure on certain uh foreign entities and corporations that the Trump administration was looking to squeeze. >> Okay. I want to bring the audience's attention to some of your recent commentary on the CPM channel. So CPM Group has a YouTube channel as well. What surging gold and uh silver prices mean for investors. Um I won't play for you the whole video. I encourage people to check it out themselves. But uh one interesting uh tip that stood out to me. You talked about how uh the signal in um well the price rise in gold and silver signal US global isolation and just geopolitical shifts in power generally speaking. Uh so you commented at the recent G20 meeting in South Africa. The US didn't even attend. Uh you mentioned that the some countries welcomed its absence. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Did they say something? But uh anyway uh China's global trade is expanding strongly. Here's a key stat that was brought up. Exports to the US down 27%. Worldwide exports up 8.7% showing the US has become a smaller part of China's economic engine. This is just a Trump effect or a long-term structural shift in the balance of power globally. Jeff, >> yes. You know, first off, >> I can say that people were happy that he was that that the US wasn't there because they said it. There were several heads of state at the G20 meeting who said it's okay that those guys are not there often laughing as I just did or chuckling was as they said it you know which is important for a couple uh re levels you know first off it's important that they're standing up and saying that you know u that but it's also it shows that they're willing to stand up to the US and that they feel they can stand up to the Now, in terms of whether this is a Trump thing or anti-Trump thing or a long-term issue, the answer is yes. You know, there has been since the 70s when I started studying commodities in university in the mid70s, uh, you know, we were four years into a post Bretonwoods uh, dollar gold uh, monetary system. There was talk about gold demonetization and what will replace the dollar as the de facto reserve currency. It had been the dejour uh reserve currency until 1971. Then it was the de facto. It's still the de facto current reserve currency. And you know there has been a long-term movement or desire to move away from US hegemony economically, monetarily, financially, politically, militarily, culturally. But there have been headwinds partly because globally a lot of people liked stuff from the US and there were certain um advantages monetarily and otherwise to doing that. So there's been this long-term desire but it hasn't really been materializing too much. Now over that period of time as I said in the video you know when I was in university in the 1970s the US was 44% of world GDP it's about 22% now so there has been this global and and that goes back to what I was saying earlier globalization computerization modernization computer assisted design and manufacturing now computer uh mana u manufact computerized manufacturing All of these things have helped increase GDP on a global basis. And the US in the 70s and 80s and even into the '9s supported that idea because we wanted to see a stronger economically viable world. We thought that economic growth would sp uh spawn democratic uh impulses in a number of countries and it did. Unfortunately, a lot of those democratic impulses were crushed by the governments of those countries. Uh we won't name names. Uh but um you know the US supported that idea and you had a situation where in the early audition they said you know we have been supporting industrialization modernization uh commercial enterprises in China because we saw China as a potential partner. We have to start thinking of China as a competitor and this was in the period 2001 to 2007. The US government made a conscious decision to take a more hostile approach toward China and China responded by responding and taking a more hostile approach toward the United States, you know, and and that has done several things. It slowed the growth of the rest of the world and it created this animosity which has fueled and you've seen slower GDP. You've seen more financial issues and you're seeing some of the things that I itemized in that video that you just referred to that have been occurring over the last 20 years as a result of this delobalization. You know, there's other issues that are there. I mean we could go on for a long period of time and I don't think you want to about you know shifts in population attitudes toward government. From the period of the depression and World War II until the 1990s really 19 late 80s early 90s people were willing to forego freedoms for economic and and political support and safety. And that led to an increase in centralization of political power. By the late 80s, early 90s, computerization, globalization, liberalization of trade, liberalization of travel, better travel with air uh with uh airlines. All of these things started to lead people to say, you know what, I'd rather see decentralization of political power. governments were slow to affect on that. You know, the governments have been working for centralization for decades and they have been slow to do it. But now we're starting to see that and the Trump policies are sort of opening that can so that some of those things can actually take effect. >> This is an article from the Hill. I just read you one paragraph that stuck out to me. >> Be careful what you wish for is my response to what you just said. Pax the the Pax Americana is over argues this particular author in the oped what comes next will be worse. So the author here argues that without a great power enforcing these norms protectionism will rise supply chains will localize economic efficiency will decline. The poorest nations which benefited greatly from integration into global markets will suffer most as investment retreats to safer havens. wealthier nations will see a decline in their standard of living as access to markets with cheaper labor is blocked off. Is that the future we have in store for the world? >> I hate to say it, but yes. I mean, I hate to be in a position I mean that first of it's great. It's the Hill. You know, this is Washington's view of the world and I hate to find myself in agreement with the Washington mainstream. But yes, those are some of the negative economic consequences we're already starting to feel and we will continue to feel for the foreseeable future. >> What happened when the British Empire started its decline? Did we see a dramatic shift into buying of gold? I know I know there was a gold standard throughout, you know, throughout the 40s into the early '7s, but and then there was a classical gold standard before that. When the British started to lose relevance slowly, was there a proportional response to gold buying during that time? >> Yes, there were there were some it at for much of that period of time, gold ownership was severely restricted in most parts of the world and and so you didn't see as strong of a response in people moving toward gold. What you saw at that time was people moving to the US dollar uh because the dollar was freely traded whereas gold ownership was restricted in many countries including the United States. >> So what happens when the American uh hedge money ends? What happens to gold demand? Do we do we see do we see dramatic buying of gold following that? Well, a continuation of what's going on now where do we see a new dollar emerging kind of like what happened with the British Empire? It's interesting because yeah, I've looked at and I've I've I've worked on and I've studied and I've talked to central bankers and ma uh economists since the 70s and people have said what comes after the dollar and no one has come up with a a viable answer >> you know and that's one of the reasons why we are still with a de facto US dollar there is no viable solution right now the ideal that a lot of people have central bankers and other mainstream economists is a multi-olar monetary system that coincides with a multi-olar economic and financial systems. uh but whether we get there and how we get there uh are not at all clear and and they're likely even if we get there the road there is going to be very bumpy and that's something that people have been talking about since the late 1970s early 1980s it's like you know I remember talking to central bankers in the early 1980s about their currencies and their currency policies and they were saying look we have views as to where we want to be, but it's going to take decades to get there. And 40 years later, we're still on that road and it's going to be a bumpy road. So that tells us that demand for gold will continue to be strong. Now you use the word dramatic and I'd have to say define dramatic for me because you know the reality is you can see investors around the world and institutional investors as well as individuals as well as governments as well as central banks as opposed to governments. You can see all of them wanting to have more gold and that's a dramatic increase in the volume and the desire to have that gold. But because the gold market is so much smaller than the world financial system, it's not going to be too dramatic in terms of the size because if you look at it and you look at the increase that you saw in the amount of financial assets that were held in gold in the period say from 1980 to 2011 2012. Um, and then that there was a decline in the percentage of financial assets and now there's a rise again. It's all been less than 1%. You know, because the gold market is just that small. And much of the increase that we saw from 2002 to 2012 in the percentage of financial assets that were in gold was a result of the rise in the gold price as opposed to a result of the increased volumes of ounces of gold investors were buying. So the reality is you will see strong demand for gold. You will see higher prices for gold. But it's not like gold is going to be 30 or 40% of the world monetary system. >> Yeah. >> It's just too small for that to happen. >> So all this well not all but some speculation around gold replacing the current monetary uh reserve and then the US or other countries completely rebasing the monetary reserve to gold sending gold to $50,000 or whatever number you have. That doesn't I mean does that does that make sense to you? Is that is that >> it's unrealistic? It's just not realistic. I mean, if you sit down with a Excel spreadsheet or a calculator and a paper pad of paper and a pen, you can see that gold can increase in its importance, but it cannot take the major role that it had prior to the 1920s. >> Let's finish off on one final question. Uh Jeff, is there a hard metal or any hard asset that you think could rival oil or replace oil become the new oil in its strategic importance for powering the world? I'm not quite sure because you know if you look at it first off oil and gas our expectation is that in 25 years in 2050 our projection and the projection of the International Energy Agency is that petroleum will still be the largest source of energy for humankind. You know so petroleum is not going away anytime soon. The second thing is in so far as it does go away, it's going to be replaced by all kinds of technologies. I like hydrogen, but hydrogen depends on liquid organic hydrogen carriers. And while we know some people who have LHCs that can carry enough uh hydrogen to be useful in transportation, most of the people doing research on liquid organic hydrogen carriers haven't found that. So they can use it for stationary storage of energy and it's storage of energy. It's not energy creation. I like nuclear power. That doesn't mean I like uranium because if you reproc if the US government and other governments allowed the reprocessing of spent you uh nuclear power fuel uh you don't need to mine new uranium to get to the I like nuclear power. I like hydrogen, but those things are decades away. >> Uh, okay. Well, let's talk about um uranium and some other base metals in more detail next time. Thank you very much for your updates today on the precious metals. Tell us where we can find you. >> Uh, www.cpmgroup.com is our website. That's the best place to go. You can see some of our research. There's a lot of free reads and free videos there. You can buy some of our reports. You can send a email to info@cpmgroup.com and say you want to talk to us about how we can work with you. And then yeah, we do twice weekly videos on the internet. They post them on YouTube and you can get a plethora of CPM group research and analysis for free on YouTube. >> Okay, we'll put the links down below. Make sure to follow the CPM group there. Thank you very much, Jeff. Speak soon. Bye-bye. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like, subscribe.
Silver Surges Towards $60; Historic Gold, Silver Explosion Signals 'Significant Recession'
Summary
Transcript
Silver's never been above $50 until well, October and November. Now, we've had silver basically trading above silver uh $50 for most of the last two months. Unprecedented. The cat's out of the bag and markets are not going to necessarily exhale just because there's some relaxation of the negative economic pressures that we are experiencing today. And people have said, "What comes after the dollar?" And no one has come up with a a viable answer. >> The entire market and not just the precious metals market, but a lot of investors outside the precious metal space are wondering what's next for gold and silver because they've been signaling a lot of things for the economy. We'll find out what those things are. We'll find out what's next for the economy. We'll find out what's next for precious metals. and we'll find out uh what the signals are since gold and silver have been trading uh sideways and they've been outperforming the S&P 500 for quite some time now. Year to date, uh they've both beaten stocks. So, what does this mean? Jeff Christian's back. He's the managing partner of the CPM Group. Welcome back, Jeff. Uh good to see you. >> Thank you for having me back, David. >> Yeah, your calls have always been spot on. People can verify my last statement by going to our last interview with Jeff and he's a regular on the show and uh he's been calling for higher gold prices, but uh he's been also calling for some caution right now. Is this a time for caution for gold and silver right now? And then we'll jump into the economy right after this. >> Well, our our view is that the gold price and the silver price both are probably headed higher. Uh but right now, you know, we've we've been in a situation where the price rose very sharply from late August into October. uh from October through November, we've had two months now of very volatile sideways movements in gold, silver, platinum, and palladium, and copper for that matter, too. And and our expectation is that we're not quite out of the woods, that we could continue to see that short-term volatility. uh maybe for a couple weeks in December, but then we think that toward the end of the year and into the first quarter, we will see higher gold and silver prices. And again, it basically stems from our having a rather negative view of economic and political conditions in 2026. >> Okay, I will get uh Jeff's point forecast for gold and silver towards the middle part of this interview later in our discussion. So stay tuned. This will be a great talk. Jeff, let's talk about your economic outlook. You mentioned to me several times that 2026 potentially is the turning point for the economy uh that we're going to get a recession. Um that still your view? >> We have had the view for several years that we would see a rather severe recession in 2025 2027 in that time frame. And what we've done over the last several months, you know, 2025 has been a difficult year for a variety of reasons. And not just at the CPM group, but economists around the world have really struggled to try to figure out where the economy is going to go. There have been a lot of changes uh partly because of the Trump administration's ascendancy in early January. And over the course of 2025, we've wrestled with our long-term economic outlook. We take our economic projections out 10 years. We have said for some time that we thought there'd be a very deep recession and steep recession in this time period. We've changed that view in the last three or four months, September through November. We've modified our 10-year economic outlook. We still expect a recession 20. It could really emerge in the second half of 2025. We just don't have the economic uh statistics to to verify that. But we're seeing signs of economic weakness. But you know, we still expect a relatively significant recession between now and 2027. Uh not as severe as we had been thinking, but more prolonged. And we had been saying for for several years that we thought that when you get into the recovery and then the expansion period after the recession, you would see subpar economic growth. So that the on a on a global basis, the world would not respond and come out of that recession as strongly as it has in p uh past recovery periods from the 1980s through 2021. Um, and what we're seeing now is maybe a less deep recession in 2026, but an even weaker economic recovery and expansion uh going forward over the next several years. >> What would change your mind on a weaker economy? >> Data that uh we've seen stronger economic activity than we expect. uh a change in the anti-globalistic uh you know there's this anti-globalization trend that's been going on for several years and it's accelerated uh and there the tra trade and tariff talks you know economic growth not only in the United States and Canada but on a global basis is heavily tied to global trade and global trade has helped fuel pretty strong economic conditions over for the last 25 years or so and that is at risk. So if we saw a reversal of the the nivism and the isolationism and the anti-globalization and the trade and tariff uh restrictions, if we saw a reversal of that, that would in our view signal that the economy could be stronger, uh economic and financial stability could be greater than we expect. And that would be headwinds for gold and silver to some extent. Well, let's uh let's follow up and uh let's see what happens in next quarter. Uh some changes that we can expect uh the Fed to end QT and uh we may see Yeah, we may see the in the springtime a new Fed share. Uh we may see uh well, let's see what the data says in regards to the labor market now that the government shutdown is over. But focusing on the Fed, do you expect more liquidity to prolong this economic expansion and potentially delay any signs of a contraction? >> Yeah, we've often said people kept saying, well, you know, the Fed has got to uh reduce it the pace of of clo closing out reducing its balance sheet and the Fed has to lower interest rates more sharply. And we have always said, be careful what you wish for because the Fed's not going to lower interest rates and it's not going to end its QT program until it really sees severe economic problems. So the Fed is now once more reducing interest rates and it's ending or it's modifying well it's ending its QT program for now. That tells us that the Fed which has the best econ a largest and best economic projection research team in the world. The Fed is very much concerned about a state of the US economy. >> Gold prices have continuously hit all-time highs this year in 2025. Stellar Gold in the mining industry is a name worth watching. 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Do you think that a sharp stock market correction triggered by entirely company dependent news in the tech sector, in other words, devoid of macro forces, could prompt the Fed to act. So, let's say Nvidia misses earnings or let's say the AI bubble that people have been talking about start to pop and investors are pulling capital away. That sinks the entire market. Does that trigger Fed action? I don't think it does. You know, we're of the camp. There are people who don't like the Fed who say that the Fed actually responds to changes in the stock market. the there there's every indication that it doesn't that the Fed actually does live up to its mandate to try to target uh full employment and and as low of inflation as it can maintain on a sustained basis. So we don't think that a Fed everybody sees the Fed the the stock market in a bubble. Everybody knows that the increase in the indices have reflected a few companies many of which are very spurious in their nature uh rising very sharply while the majority of equities have not done so well. So there's a great expectation that at some point US equity prices will come down and come down sharply. I don't think the Fed will react to that. the Fed will react to the real economy, uh, employment, overall economic activity, and inflation. >> I'm going to pull up a chart referencing something I mentioned in the beginning of the video, which is that gold have gold and silver have dramatically outperformed the stock market. Now, if you take a look at my screen, I'm just going to show a one-mon rolling um chart of gold versus the S&P 500, which is a blue line. Gold is the bar chart. Uh, right now, you're looking at 2020 versus 2021. And in most time periods in which the stock market has performed in the bull market, uh stocks have kind of outperformed slightly if not dramatically. Now, uh when we have when we had cases of bare markets, for example, 2022, gold being a more defensive asset has outperformed. But we're looking specifically at what happens during a bull market. It is rather rare at least to my observation when scrolling back on this chart that we have a bull market in the stock market uh accompanied by dramatic not even minor but dramatic outperformance in gold up 57% year-to date 58% year-to date while the S&P is only up 16.5%. What does this signal to you? >> Well, it signals several things to us. First off, it signals to us that there is in fact a tremendous amount of liquidity that's on the sidelines right now. We have more money and more money in cash than ever before on a global basis and investors, institutional and and individual investors are struggling to figure out where to put it. And I think that what we've seen over the course of 2025 is that investors have said, "Okay, the economy is doing okay. The stock market's doing well. We have these things going on with the AI and other uh in um equities. So I will continue to invest in the stock market on a short-term basis, you know, the next year or so. But I also have tremendous economic and financial and political concerns. So, I'm also going to be moving assets into gold and silver. So, you've got investors sort of saying, I want a diversified portfolio. I'm playing gold and silver as a long game and I'm playing the stock market as a shorter term gain. And we've seen, you know, with our investors, we've seen an increase of investors this year saying to us, okay, you guys have been talking about stronger gold and silver prices for years, peaking in the period 2025, 2027. We're at the levels that you were targeting and we're at the time period that you're targeting. So on the one hand, we'd say, well, we're hitting those peaks. maybe we should liquidate, but we don't want to liquidate because we have these long-term political and economic concerns. So, instead of working with us to liquidate these long positions, work with us to hedge them. So, we have a lot of institutions uh and and individual, you know, family offices that we've been working with globally this year that are saying we want to stay long gold and silver, maybe even add to our longing uh positions, but what we really want to do is hedge this position. So we've been working with them structuring uh compound hedges u to to give them downside protection and the ability to profit if the prices do fall sharply while preserving their long physical position. That tells me investors worldwide are very much concerned about the next several years. >> Well, let's talk about the next several years starting from this year. Recently this week, uh, Ukrainian officials signed a peace deal. So, we'll see how that gets actually enacted. And also, in the last couple weeks, Trump has been more aggressive in reducing tariffs. He recently just, uh, removed tariffs on Brazilian beef and coffee. Coffee, as you know, uh, in the latest CPI report from the last month, has gone up double digits, 20some percent year-over-year. Uh, that's just one item. So it it seems like uh Trump is stepping back from tariffs a little bit and there seems to be at least for now a little more stability on the uh Eastern European front. At least all these things signal a little more geopolitical stability. My question is Jeff, why didn't gold react negatively to either of these events over the last week? It's still firmly above $4,000. Well, I think the talk of a peace agreement in Ukraine is nonsense, as do the Ukrainians, the Europeans, and the Russians. You know, Putin said, "We don't have an agreement, and what we're hearing from these talks in Geneva is not acceptable to us." The Ukraine government and the EU are saying the same thing. The EU this week said, "Listen, we will finance the Ukraine war in 2026 and 2027." And frankly, that's what Trump wanted to hear. It's not that Trump is pushing for peace between Russia and Ukraine. Trump is pushing for Europe to pay the United States for the weapons that Ukraine needs. And that's what's happening. So, I'm very pessimistic about the idea that this is a major peace uh development and clearly the markets feel the same way. Uh the same is true for example in reality with Gaza. You know that's not a that's not a definitive peace agreement. That's a ceasefire right now. And I think that the markets look at the political landscape and say okay all quiet on the western front but that could change tomorrow or it could change in January or it could change in the spring. And the same is true I think economically and in terms of the equity market. You just have a lot of people who are very skeptical about optimistic outlooks because they think that there is perhaps a lot of misperception as to what's really going on. >> Well, let me pull up another chart for your consideration here. This is gold versus tip. And I know we've you and I have talked several times in the past about how gold doesn't, you know, gold's not really a hedge against inflation. Um there's no there's no observable long-term correlation. But anyway, let me pull this chart up. So gold is here in the uh gold is the blue line this in this particular chart and then uh the bar chart is the tip ETF. Inflation expectations have risen alongside gold. Um I'll let you answer if that's correlation or causation. Uh but the second part of the question is where do you see inflation expectations going next year especially on the trade front if let's say trade uncertainty diminishes? uh tariffs stabilize and due to the base effect we have less inflation uh because prices have already gone up this year versus next year. Uh would that affect gold? Yeah. I Okay, first off, causation versus u causality versus co, you know, I think they're both both tips and gold are responding to inflation concerns and they both should be expected to respond to inflation concerns although not lock step you know. So when you start calculating the correlation between inflation and gold or other things what you find is a broad uh correlation directionally but they don't move lock step. So that's it. Now going forward our expectation is that inflation is going to be very problematic right now. If you look at the most recent data for for the US PPI and CPI and that data is like from September so it's uh a little bit out of date but what we've been seeing is inflationary pressures rising in goods uh but declining in services that's shifting now but you've got a number of problems and headlines. So even if we back off on the tariffs and and we have other issues including the fact that you've you you significantly reduce the workforce in service providers uh construction agricultural and uh agricultural processing harvesting and processing uh and a variety of other things. So you have a number of service pressures that will be continuing in 2026 at least and probably in 2027. And you also have goods pre uh inflationary pressures in the goods sector too. You have a surf of oil and gas right now. So that is causing a downward um that that's providing downward pressure on the indices. But if you take out that energy factor, you're you're seeing a lot of inflationary pressures. And I don't necessarily see those pressures going away. I don't necessarily see inflation going from 3% now to 7%. Um, but I don't necessarily see it going from 3% to 2% or lower over the next two to uh one to two years. >> Aren't recessions inherently disinflationary events, though, Jeff? There are de disinflationary pressures that occurred during a re uh recession because the demand for goods and services decline. That's what that's the definition or characteristic of of a recession. But the question is how much will demand decline relative to the declines that we're seeing in supply for goods and services? >> Silver and gold. Now silver and gold have a perfect fit on this chart year to date. Now, silver above $53 an ounce. This is rather unprecedented. The fact that it's sustained above $50 an ounce for so long. Uh I believe it's never happened before that it's been above $50 for more than a couple of days, let alone a month and a half now. Jeeoff, what do you make of this pattern? >> Well, first off, gold's never or silver's never been above $50. in in Jan January of 1980 and again in April of 2011, it approached $50 on an intraday basis, but it didn't actually cross $50 for spot silver. You know, it got there for about 10 minutes in 1980 and it got there for about 20 minutes in 2011. So, silver's never been above $50 until well, October and November. Now, we've had silver basically trading above silver uh $50 for most of the last two months, unprecedented. We're at record silver prices. We're at record gold prices. That's to be expected given the severe economic risks and uncertainties that we're facing as well as the political risks and uncertainties that we're facing. And I should say, you know, you asked earlier, even if you start seeing improvements in economic uh trends and in political uh trends, you know, you start seeing some of these things unwinding or the the the Trump administration uh backpedaling some of its more economically destructive policies. the cat's out of the bag and markets are not going to necessarily exhale just because there's some relaxation of the negative economic pressures that we are experiencing today. Can you just comment on these uh silver shortage narratives because I'm reading on on the one hand that there is uh an above ground shortage of silver but um I'm looking at um okay this is copper so it's not related to silver but I was reading uh a report from the US uh geological survey that uh since copper has been made a critical minimum we can talk about copper in just a minute there's been a huge stockpiling of copper actually all throughout the year uh on on the CME and and uh I I wonder if the same could be said of silver. Anyway, the point I'm making is is there actually a shortage of silver that's causing this giant upward pattern? In other words, some sort of squeeze going on here. >> Yeah. Well, you know, copper has uh a number of long-term and short-term factors going for it. And one of uh pushing the price up and one of the things has been the the problems that Freeport has had in Indonesia which may or may not be improving you know but that's beside the point. We're going to talk about silver. There have been dislocation. There have been locationational shortages. Uh specifically in the Indian market, uh silver, new silver supply, newly refined silver supply in the Indian market has been tight. That led to imports into India from London and other places which led to a decline in um unallocated silver inventories in London. Um these are locationational problems. On a global basis, there's plenty of silver around. And what we've seen over the last three or four months is a large amount of silver moving into London from New York and from Shanghai and from Switzerland and other markets. And you've also seen with the higher price, you've saw a significant amount of silver ETFs liquidated in the course of October. And that then shifts that metal from being allocated in London vaults to being unallocated. So the the tightness that we've seen in London has reduced significantly um and has probably been less important than a lot of uh silver marketeteers uh have suggested uh and the the situation in India remains relatively tight but it's not as bad as it was in the first half of this year but on a global basis there's plenty of silver around the problem in India and the problem on a global basis is is that most of that silver is owned by either investors or in in financial entities or industrial companies that use silver that don't necessarily care to sell the metal just because the price has risen. Uh they're very happy to continue to hold that metal. So, there's a lot of silver around, but would be additional buyers need to bid the price even higher to convince those that own the silver that it's worth taking profits. >> On August 1st, Trump imposed a 50% tariff on imports of semi-finish copper products. Now, this was before they declared the Trump administration declared copper as being a critical mineral, which happened just a week and a half ago. Were you surprised that a similar tariff was not made on silver? Silver is critical in many ways as well. >> I wasn't surprised. Uh, you know, I can't quite remember back as far as August 1st, but I remember having a very cynical view of what that was. And I thought that that was sort of putting pressure on certain uh foreign entities and corporations that the Trump administration was looking to squeeze. >> Okay. I want to bring the audience's attention to some of your recent commentary on the CPM channel. So CPM Group has a YouTube channel as well. What surging gold and uh silver prices mean for investors. Um I won't play for you the whole video. I encourage people to check it out themselves. But uh one interesting uh tip that stood out to me. You talked about how uh the signal in um well the price rise in gold and silver signal US global isolation and just geopolitical shifts in power generally speaking. Uh so you commented at the recent G20 meeting in South Africa. The US didn't even attend. Uh you mentioned that the some countries welcomed its absence. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Did they say something? But uh anyway uh China's global trade is expanding strongly. Here's a key stat that was brought up. Exports to the US down 27%. Worldwide exports up 8.7% showing the US has become a smaller part of China's economic engine. This is just a Trump effect or a long-term structural shift in the balance of power globally. Jeff, >> yes. You know, first off, >> I can say that people were happy that he was that that the US wasn't there because they said it. There were several heads of state at the G20 meeting who said it's okay that those guys are not there often laughing as I just did or chuckling was as they said it you know which is important for a couple uh re levels you know first off it's important that they're standing up and saying that you know u that but it's also it shows that they're willing to stand up to the US and that they feel they can stand up to the Now, in terms of whether this is a Trump thing or anti-Trump thing or a long-term issue, the answer is yes. You know, there has been since the 70s when I started studying commodities in university in the mid70s, uh, you know, we were four years into a post Bretonwoods uh, dollar gold uh, monetary system. There was talk about gold demonetization and what will replace the dollar as the de facto reserve currency. It had been the dejour uh reserve currency until 1971. Then it was the de facto. It's still the de facto current reserve currency. And you know there has been a long-term movement or desire to move away from US hegemony economically, monetarily, financially, politically, militarily, culturally. But there have been headwinds partly because globally a lot of people liked stuff from the US and there were certain um advantages monetarily and otherwise to doing that. So there's been this long-term desire but it hasn't really been materializing too much. Now over that period of time as I said in the video you know when I was in university in the 1970s the US was 44% of world GDP it's about 22% now so there has been this global and and that goes back to what I was saying earlier globalization computerization modernization computer assisted design and manufacturing now computer uh mana u manufact computerized manufacturing All of these things have helped increase GDP on a global basis. And the US in the 70s and 80s and even into the '9s supported that idea because we wanted to see a stronger economically viable world. We thought that economic growth would sp uh spawn democratic uh impulses in a number of countries and it did. Unfortunately, a lot of those democratic impulses were crushed by the governments of those countries. Uh we won't name names. Uh but um you know the US supported that idea and you had a situation where in the early audition they said you know we have been supporting industrialization modernization uh commercial enterprises in China because we saw China as a potential partner. We have to start thinking of China as a competitor and this was in the period 2001 to 2007. The US government made a conscious decision to take a more hostile approach toward China and China responded by responding and taking a more hostile approach toward the United States, you know, and and that has done several things. It slowed the growth of the rest of the world and it created this animosity which has fueled and you've seen slower GDP. You've seen more financial issues and you're seeing some of the things that I itemized in that video that you just referred to that have been occurring over the last 20 years as a result of this delobalization. You know, there's other issues that are there. I mean we could go on for a long period of time and I don't think you want to about you know shifts in population attitudes toward government. From the period of the depression and World War II until the 1990s really 19 late 80s early 90s people were willing to forego freedoms for economic and and political support and safety. And that led to an increase in centralization of political power. By the late 80s, early 90s, computerization, globalization, liberalization of trade, liberalization of travel, better travel with air uh with uh airlines. All of these things started to lead people to say, you know what, I'd rather see decentralization of political power. governments were slow to affect on that. You know, the governments have been working for centralization for decades and they have been slow to do it. But now we're starting to see that and the Trump policies are sort of opening that can so that some of those things can actually take effect. >> This is an article from the Hill. I just read you one paragraph that stuck out to me. >> Be careful what you wish for is my response to what you just said. Pax the the Pax Americana is over argues this particular author in the oped what comes next will be worse. So the author here argues that without a great power enforcing these norms protectionism will rise supply chains will localize economic efficiency will decline. The poorest nations which benefited greatly from integration into global markets will suffer most as investment retreats to safer havens. wealthier nations will see a decline in their standard of living as access to markets with cheaper labor is blocked off. Is that the future we have in store for the world? >> I hate to say it, but yes. I mean, I hate to be in a position I mean that first of it's great. It's the Hill. You know, this is Washington's view of the world and I hate to find myself in agreement with the Washington mainstream. But yes, those are some of the negative economic consequences we're already starting to feel and we will continue to feel for the foreseeable future. >> What happened when the British Empire started its decline? Did we see a dramatic shift into buying of gold? I know I know there was a gold standard throughout, you know, throughout the 40s into the early '7s, but and then there was a classical gold standard before that. When the British started to lose relevance slowly, was there a proportional response to gold buying during that time? >> Yes, there were there were some it at for much of that period of time, gold ownership was severely restricted in most parts of the world and and so you didn't see as strong of a response in people moving toward gold. What you saw at that time was people moving to the US dollar uh because the dollar was freely traded whereas gold ownership was restricted in many countries including the United States. >> So what happens when the American uh hedge money ends? What happens to gold demand? Do we do we see do we see dramatic buying of gold following that? Well, a continuation of what's going on now where do we see a new dollar emerging kind of like what happened with the British Empire? It's interesting because yeah, I've looked at and I've I've I've worked on and I've studied and I've talked to central bankers and ma uh economists since the 70s and people have said what comes after the dollar and no one has come up with a a viable answer >> you know and that's one of the reasons why we are still with a de facto US dollar there is no viable solution right now the ideal that a lot of people have central bankers and other mainstream economists is a multi-olar monetary system that coincides with a multi-olar economic and financial systems. uh but whether we get there and how we get there uh are not at all clear and and they're likely even if we get there the road there is going to be very bumpy and that's something that people have been talking about since the late 1970s early 1980s it's like you know I remember talking to central bankers in the early 1980s about their currencies and their currency policies and they were saying look we have views as to where we want to be, but it's going to take decades to get there. And 40 years later, we're still on that road and it's going to be a bumpy road. So that tells us that demand for gold will continue to be strong. Now you use the word dramatic and I'd have to say define dramatic for me because you know the reality is you can see investors around the world and institutional investors as well as individuals as well as governments as well as central banks as opposed to governments. You can see all of them wanting to have more gold and that's a dramatic increase in the volume and the desire to have that gold. But because the gold market is so much smaller than the world financial system, it's not going to be too dramatic in terms of the size because if you look at it and you look at the increase that you saw in the amount of financial assets that were held in gold in the period say from 1980 to 2011 2012. Um, and then that there was a decline in the percentage of financial assets and now there's a rise again. It's all been less than 1%. You know, because the gold market is just that small. And much of the increase that we saw from 2002 to 2012 in the percentage of financial assets that were in gold was a result of the rise in the gold price as opposed to a result of the increased volumes of ounces of gold investors were buying. So the reality is you will see strong demand for gold. You will see higher prices for gold. But it's not like gold is going to be 30 or 40% of the world monetary system. >> Yeah. >> It's just too small for that to happen. >> So all this well not all but some speculation around gold replacing the current monetary uh reserve and then the US or other countries completely rebasing the monetary reserve to gold sending gold to $50,000 or whatever number you have. That doesn't I mean does that does that make sense to you? Is that is that >> it's unrealistic? It's just not realistic. I mean, if you sit down with a Excel spreadsheet or a calculator and a paper pad of paper and a pen, you can see that gold can increase in its importance, but it cannot take the major role that it had prior to the 1920s. >> Let's finish off on one final question. Uh Jeff, is there a hard metal or any hard asset that you think could rival oil or replace oil become the new oil in its strategic importance for powering the world? I'm not quite sure because you know if you look at it first off oil and gas our expectation is that in 25 years in 2050 our projection and the projection of the International Energy Agency is that petroleum will still be the largest source of energy for humankind. You know so petroleum is not going away anytime soon. The second thing is in so far as it does go away, it's going to be replaced by all kinds of technologies. I like hydrogen, but hydrogen depends on liquid organic hydrogen carriers. And while we know some people who have LHCs that can carry enough uh hydrogen to be useful in transportation, most of the people doing research on liquid organic hydrogen carriers haven't found that. So they can use it for stationary storage of energy and it's storage of energy. It's not energy creation. I like nuclear power. That doesn't mean I like uranium because if you reproc if the US government and other governments allowed the reprocessing of spent you uh nuclear power fuel uh you don't need to mine new uranium to get to the I like nuclear power. I like hydrogen, but those things are decades away. >> Uh, okay. Well, let's talk about um uranium and some other base metals in more detail next time. Thank you very much for your updates today on the precious metals. Tell us where we can find you. >> Uh, www.cpmgroup.com is our website. That's the best place to go. You can see some of our research. There's a lot of free reads and free videos there. You can buy some of our reports. You can send a email to info@cpmgroup.com and say you want to talk to us about how we can work with you. And then yeah, we do twice weekly videos on the internet. They post them on YouTube and you can get a plethora of CPM group research and analysis for free on YouTube. >> Okay, we'll put the links down below. Make sure to follow the CPM group there. Thank you very much, Jeff. Speak soon. Bye-bye. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like, subscribe.