Thinking like Private Owners in the Public Markets with Jason Kirsch, Rosen Partnership
Summary
Strategy Focus: Concentrated long-only approach targeting micro caps in Canada, the US, and Europe, seeking capital-light, high-ROIC compounders at discounts to intrinsic value.
Europe: Bullish on Europe with two large positions added recently; views the region as fertile ground for overlooked names and is dedicating more time to sourcing there.
Real Estate: Actively exploring real estate companies trading below asset values, with growing rental income, asset sales, capital recycling, and a rising go-private trend.
Special Situations: Emphasis on recaps, restructurings, and misunderstood assets; willingness to work constructively with management to unlock value.
Market Dynamics: Notes prior lack of participation in small caps, improving recently; acknowledges thin liquidity and 5–10% daily price moves as common in small-cap land.
Risk Management: Highlights risks from misaligned incentives and stalled catalysts leading to value traps; stresses the need for clear paths to value realization.
Research Edge: Builds a knowledge edge via deep channel checks with management, former executives, competitors, suppliers, and board members.
Tickers: No specific public company tickers were pitched; any company references were anecdotal and not investment recommendations.
Transcript
This podcast is forformational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell securities. SNN network Network, SNN Inc. and the Plano Microcap podcast and the representatives are not licensed brokers, broker dealers, market makers, investment bankers, investment adviserss, analysts, or underwriters. We do not recommend any companies [music] discussed. We may buy and sell securities in any company mentioned and make profit in the event those securities rise in value. We recommend you consult with a professional investment advisor, broker, or legal counsel before purchasing or selling any securities referenced in this podcast. [music] Welcome to the Planet Microap podcast. I'm your host, Robert Craft. Thank you all so much for the continued support and for tuning in. If you like what you hear on the Planet Microap podcast, please take a moment to rate us five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcast. It really helps more folks discover the show and join in on everything happening here at the Micro Cap Investing Community. We just announced our full slate of investor conferences for 2026, all in partnership with Micro Cap Club. Our next major event is Planet Micro Cap Las Vegas happening June 16 through 18, 2026 at the Bellagio. Registration is now open for that. And then later on in the year, we'll be heading back to Toronto October 27th through 29, 2026 at the Arcadian Loft. The mission is to bring the best micro cap investors and companies together to gather, connect, and grow. This includes your participation. We know you are probably putting your 2026 uh investor conference calendars together or just your general travel schedules together. And uh we'd humbly like to invite you to join us for one or both of these upcoming events. Please visit planetmicrocapshowcase.com for more information and I'll see you in Vegas and Toronto. Now, my guest on the show today is Jason Kersh, portfolio manager at Rosen Partnership and co-architect of the firm's active value strategy, a concentrated long only private owner style in approach to investing in micro cap companies across Canada, the US, and Europe. In this episode, Jason walks us through Rosen Partnership's philosophy of thinking like private owners in the public markets, buying capitalite high ROIC compounders at meaningful discounts to intrinsic value, partnering with align management teams, and using constructivism, a collaborative non-activist engagement style to help unlock long-term value. We dig deep into how Jason builds a true knowledge edge. talking not just to management, but to former executives, board members, competitors, suppliers, anyone who can broaden the mosaic and create anformational gap most investors simply aren't willing to develop. Jason also shares lessons learned from catalyst that didn't play out. How misaligned in incentives can turn a bargain into a value trap, and why understanding your own psychology is just as important to understanding any business. It's a fantastic conversation about deep research, discipline, value investing, and the craft of building a concentrated portfolio. So, with that, please enjoy my conversation with Jason Kersh from Rosen Partnership. Jason, thank you for joining me today. How you doing, man? >> Robert, I really appreciate you having me. You're doing a great service for uh the small cap community and love the Toronto conference that you hosted and looking forward to the one in Vegas uh coming up next year. >> Heck yes, dude. Well, thank you. Thank you for those kind words and uh I'm excited to host you in uh in Vegas and thank you for attending our Toronto event and yeah that was that was where I was going to start is you know we met in Toronto you know talked a little bit you know I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off so it's not like I can like dive deep into uh you know everything that's on you know Jason's mind but you know that's why I wanted to invite you on here to to you know showcase a little bit more about your investing style philosophy and whatnot. So, you know, to get us started for for those that, you know, don't know you, your background, anything like that, where did your passion for micro cap investing begin and how did that lead you to where you're currently at today as portfolio manager at Rosen Partnership? >> Yeah, sure. So, I've always had a natural curiosity, I think, in terms of how a lot of businesses work. And I think I can remember uh back when in high school we had a stock competition and I picked Apple and uh the stock went up over 50% in just over 2 months and I thought well that's that's kind of an interesting uh career path uh for me to go on and uh university uh took a BCOM at McGill and in the third year they launched the honors investment management program which probably couldn't have created a better program for someone who has a passion for uh public markets. Um we created uh starting from scratch uh a regulated uh asset management firm as part of the school. We raise capital from Canadian banks and alumni to launch uh public market strategy as well as an equity strategy plus a fixed income strategy. And it's a phenomenal program right now and and doing really well. And they brought in a lot of fantastic speakers and really allowed you to understand and learn what it's like to work at an investment management firm uh in university. And when I graduated, I joined a hedge fund right out of school. uh worked there in Montreal for a few years, then worked at another long short equity firm in Toronto and in 2022 partnered with uh Rosen Partnership and Brian Rosen who I know from uh the MBA program at McGill uh when he was there and I was in the honors program and we kept seeing in the marketplace these uh amazing opportunities uh companies that were trading extraordinarily cheaply uh huge discounts to what we would determine as their net asset value. and it really enabled us um to raise capital around the strategy. We we pitch it to several family offices and uh we launched it in March 22. We've been running it since then. >> Very good. So I mean what was I I would say while while let's say while you were at McGill and then also at um the name it was Warata right before >> you know what what were some of the key lessons that you learned about the kind of style of investing that you wanted to ultimately do now that you're at Rosen partnership that you'd say you learned during that time at Miguel was very interesting because it was the great financial crisis so there was a lot of volatility happening we were having fantastic conversations there were wonderful full alumni who would come in and speak with us at 7:30 morning meetings every single day when we were there. And having that opportunity where you're able to learn, create a structure, whether it's, you know, we had equity analysts and strategists and the same thing on the fixed income side and then slowly start to deploy capital. Um, coming out of the the crisis uh that we launched in uh 2009, we got to see kind of a lot of what was happening uh in in the market. And so and then you go into a long short hedge fund and that is a completely different world uh where you're learning so quickly uh coming out of school you think you know a little bit but you really don't know anything and you have to hit the ground running uh off the bat and had fantastic mentors in there and the thing about learning the short side of the business which was a meaningful uh part at Warton Gallanti where I worked is you have to kind of flip the script on every single name that you're looking at, right? You can be long and and benefit if the stock goes higher. You can be short or you can flip it at some point and think, well, now it's too cheap and now I actually want to be long something I used to be short. So, having that mentality of how am I going to make money on either side? How do I protect myself um from uh losses when I'm when I'm long and and how can I make money when I'm short? Provides a kind of different mentality. And we're only uh long only investors uh with our active value strategy. But that philosophy of how do you make money on both sides and how do you protect yourself against losses is kind of is crucial to how we think about margin of safety in each one of the positions that we own. >> Excellent. All right, let's dig into it a little bit here. So you have the active value strategy at Rosen Partnership. Tell us a little bit more about the uh the strategy's philosophy. Yeah, it's a concentrated uh long only portfolio uh where just a handful of names make up the majority of the portfolio and we're looking at names uh in Canada, US and Europe that uh have market caps below a billion dollars. And we're generalist by nature, although we have kind of specific names that that we like to to participate in. And we want to think like private owners in the public markets. So if we own these businesses privately, a would we want to own these businesses? What type of valuation are we getting from them? You know, how are we how would we allocate the cash flow of these businesses? And we want to have deep conversations with management teams, the board of directors, previous employees, previous CEOs at these companies and really understand the philosophy about how they're going to deliver returns for shareholders. Uh that that's the kind of key thing we want. uh these long-term compounders trading at deep discounts um to what we determine as intrinsic value and ownership uh through uh the management team or large shareholders who have a significant percentage of ownership and skin in the game um and the right uh motivating factors in there but not too much where they don't really listen to shareholders and shareholder ideas. Um so we want to create a partnership um in these companies that we own. what's intrinsically motivating CEOs? Um how do their teams operate? How do they work within their teams? Kind of all these different factors. We want to make sure that um you know they're not empire builders for the sake of empire building. Uh we want to make sure that they really understand the value of a a dollar capital and how scarce capital can be and finding the right returns um in internally in the company whether it's organically or externally through uh acquisitions. >> Excellent. All right. So let's talk about the deployment of the strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong when you say concentrate. What is it? It's about >> It's mostly 10 minutes. There you go. >> Nice. All right. So, so I mean you mentioned some of the criteria and whatnot, but tell start walking us through the process like, okay, here's our main checklist. You already kind of mentioned quite a few of them. Now, it's sourcing the idea, talking with management. Tell us about the process to where you now are like, okay, here's a candidate potentially for our 10 name concentrated portfolio. >> Right. When we started, we looked through every single publicly traded name um in Canada below a billion dollars. And that narrowed it down um into names that we found interesting that we want to kind of follow is is a lot of names and and we started doing the same thing in Europe too to find um specific opportunities. But without doing that, but without doing that, >> we wouldn't really know what's exactly what's out there. Some names come and some games go. And at War and other firms that we worked at, we were more mid and large cap uh investors. But when you find a name that is naturally compounding, it has very high returns on a cap invested capital. It's uh capital light has all these ability to over time grow. We we we don't want them to access capital. Um that can be a very dangerous thing for a lot of companies unless it's for a creative acquisition. And we want to understand, well, for every dollar that they're going to invest, what are they going to do with that dollar? Are they going to pay down dividends? Are they going to do share buybacks? Um, are they going to put it back into the business? Are there opportunities within the business that they can even deploy that capital? Uh, some companies, um, you know, they're out of one manufacturing plant and there might not actually be that much opportunity outside of that one niche, uh, industry or product or service that they're focused on. And sometimes they have to go outside that. And so do they have the capabilities to go outside that product niche? And not every company should be a public company. And some public companies um you know they kind of get lost and forgotten uh especially in small cap land. And you know it's our uh our job to find out um whether they're value traps or there's real intrinsic value left in these names. And is there some sort of catalyst um that either uh we can help with or the management team has planned out or something that is going to get the name to to go higher over time? >> Gotcha. So, I have a two-part question for you because um you know, a lot of what you're saying is you you listen to podcast like it's it's you know, you're kind of in lock step with a lot of other you know, very well-known investors that either we've had on the podcast or out there out there, you know, probably operating a little bit larger, you know, uh uh areas [laughter] than even us. But uh [clears throat] what would you say makes the the the active value strategy unique and different maybe to some others that are trying to deploy something similar and what is that you know what's that that rose and partnership style like you talk to some of these investor and like you get to know them a little bit more like all right yeah that's like that's that's a Bobby style company right there like that fits [clears throat] their profile or you know that's a you know this person style like that fits kind of what they're looking for and you guys could probably have a lot of things in common regarding the strategy itself, but still like that company is is that style of investor? Like what what does that look like for you? >> Yeah, it's a it's a great question. Um the one thing that we really try to focus on is you got to create a the foundational aspect of this business. What's the mental model that this company exists in? Right? We can all do the work and and try to find out uh who are their competitors and who's the management team and all these different things. You have to put a a framework around that. What what does this business do and how is it going to make money and does it have the ability to be a three, five, 10x type business. We really want to find these companies that have extraordinary outcomes on the upside but still be very undervalued uh from a value perspective. Um so that's one thing that we're looking at. And then there's how do you take um understanding of how this management team operates, what their incentives are, um how is the ownership structure uh put together, who are the owners in the business, and how do they want to grow this company? And then find out what what's different. You're not the first person looking at this stock. There were hundreds of thousands of other investors who participated in this name and continue to do today. So what what's the what's the edge? What's the differentiating factor that you have? And a lot of that can come down to knowledge. And it can come down to knowledge creating that knowledge gap from 90% of other investors who are in the name by doing the research and understanding all the different CEOs who uh manage that company and all the different people who work there. Um and then understand the cycle of what was this company before. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the other shareholders over a period of time and then understand where you are today and what differentiates the business today and what is it going to be in the future right if if they execute on XYZ what is that company going to look like um if they don't what is the business going to do and do they have the team in place that can do all the things that management says or that they want to do and then you got to have the margin of safety right we all we all some some people are growth investors some people are value investors We're not value investors just for having a low PE multiple or free c or high free cash flow. Um it's about intrinsic value of this business. And when we think about private ownership in a public company, we think about if we own this business privately today, what would we be getting for this company? Would would we want to own this company privately? And are there private equity investors or strategics who would actually prefer to own this company? Or maybe this company is in better hands um with some of these uh participants. So, we really want to own businesses that we would own privately and we don't really ever want to sell them. We just want to own fantastic, really great businesses um that can compound naturally over a period of time. And when you can kind of put all these different characteristics together into uh the special situation that might be this particular name, I think um that's the the key criteria. Um and then maybe even lastly is really understanding yourself as an investor. Um, how would you react in different scenarios that that happen in the future or that could potentially happen? Uh, are you the type of investor who prefers to buy on earnings? Do you like to buy when you hear the catalyst or before the catalyst? Do you buy before you meet with the management team? Um, how do you react in different situations? The key to being a great investor, you really have to understand yourself. Um, and when you can understand yourself extraordinarily well and your your tendencies and your biases, then you are a little bit different than everyone else, right? You and there's many different ways to to make money in the stock market. Um, but everyone has their own individual strategy and everyone kind of has to understand how they operate within that and um, you know, investors can can come along with the ride for that or uh, so that's always a good thing. >> No, no, for sure. There you go. All right. that that that was really good. So, I mean, you know, listen, you know that this isn't like a best ideas pod. You know, I'm not here [clears throat] to get your best idea, anything like that, but I I' love to hear an anecdote, you know, of deploying the strategy where, you know, it could be a previous idea maybe that the fund used to own or, you know, one that is current. You don't have to name the name if you want to, but love to hear an example of, you know, the strategy uh really, you know, in action. So I'll leave it to you. >> Yeah, sure. So there uh in 2022 there were a number of names that were compounding. Uh we saw you know double digits and who had you know previous um you know they they were acquired for for a certain uh purchase price and they were trading you know they could be an asset. It was trading well below where that asset was acquired. Yet the business there was nothing wrong with the business. It was generating cash flow. It's growing double digits and sometimes these businesses just need to be seen by the market and there was a lull for a very long period of time where value investing, small cap investing, it there just weren't that many market participants. I think that's that's changed a little bit more uh recently, but for a very long time there wasn't really uh that many uh people looking at some of these names or investors looking at these names. And when you can buy a name at a meaningful discount to um either where the company might have bought assets. So uh we've looked more recently at uh real estate companies and we've been able to buy them at discounts to where the management team or other shareholders got in on from some of this real estate. Yet they're growing at uh you know mid-s single digits and growing uh rental income taking out costs in these businesses. And they're very they're high quality properties. And what you're seeing in a lot of these names now is there's asset sales, there's a recycling of capital, and there's even a number of them that are going private. Um, so you kind of have to be aware of what kind of market cycle that you're in. Uh, which type of names are going to work in a particular market cycle and um, just making sure that we have a a deep discount to that intrinsic value wherever we term it. And then as long as it's compounding, it will eventually it'll eventually grow. The the business will eventually work. Investors will eventually see the name. Um it just takes time. So how do you marry the having the long-term time horizon? Correct me if I'm wrong. you know, you're out, you're looking to own something 5, 10 years, maybe more with kind of timing where the market cycle is and having that kind of like, all right, this is where we think, you know, things are happening right now and, you know, this might not be a good time to look at this industry because there might be a basket of names or a couple names that stand out that we want to hold for 5, 10 years, you know, how do you marry those two concepts? I think the key thing um besides the the way that we just think about it where we just want to own these names and and they might have a bad quarter or there might be something um short-term in the markets uh where you'd want to protect capital but it's also having the right investor base and it's it's having the investor base that knows what the strategy is about and can judge you over a 3, four, 5 year even longer time period and and that's been a key uh uh of our strategy. We want investors who really understand what we're trying to do uh can see the results over the last number of years um since we launched in March 22 and then also um be comfortable with the way we take positions. Sometimes we might own 3 4 5% uh position of a company and you can't really get out of those businesses. You have to know them very very well. Uh you have to slowly get out of them over time and but they're businesses you would always want to own. So investors just have to understand uh the type of strategy and and and how we're investing. And I think that's key to allowing the portfolio manager to invest in a way that's in the best long-term interests of their investors. We don't we're we don't want to be concerned about uh day-to-day or week-toeek volatility and in small cap land. Um prices move around uh you know 5 10% you know just just pretty easily. So um you have to be cognizant of of what you're investing into >> 100%. So, you know, running this concentrate portfolio, you know, 10 names, you know, what are some of the channel checks that you do to make sure like, okay, this is in line with some of our expectations, you know, obviously open line with management. I'm assuming you have with all these names. You sub a billion, you know, make it, you know, that big that big of a of a position. I would assume that there is probably some kind of open line with management there. But, I mean, what are some of these channel checks that you do to make sure like, okay, thesis is in line, you know, this is looking okay. while also maintaining an eye out for, you know, new opportunities as they come up. >> You have to look at the entire industry as a whole and where this company operates within that industry. And it's not just uh the one company that you're looking at in isolation. There are so many other participants that could be suppliers into that business or competitors. Um there's new technologies or new service providers that are going to be uh impacting this company. So you have to really create a full um overview of of everyone who's involved in this business. And this all comes down to you have to talk to management. You have to understand who their suppliers are and who their largest competitors are and who's some of the new competitors are. And it's not even just talking to the current management, but we love talking to previous CEOs, uh previous employees. I mean, you get a really great understanding of the history of a business, especially many of these public companies have been public companies for, you know, well over a decade or more. There's fewer companies that are going public uh these days. And having that understanding the history of the business and how it's evolved is critical to understanding where the potential future of this company is. Um, so we're always speaking with uh different competitors in the private markets. Uh we love having conversations with the management team and the board of directors and previous board members to really get an insight into um how these businesses operated and what were they thinking about when they were looking to deploy capital. Um so when you do that that actually opens up doors into other industries where you see well I really like this business for a particular reason. It's growing in its market and there's two or three other competitors. you do some work on some of those and it's actually led us to to some of the more recent names where uh we really liked our core holding and then there's a a competitor out there who is uh training at a significant discount um and also has you know special situations around them where you know there's there's potential biders out there and and other aspects that we could really um kind of sink our teeth into and is also growing double digits and kind of is just misunderstood um by the market. So sometimes your best names lead you into uh other names that that you're interested in. >> 100%. So I'd love to hear of an example and again you don't have to name the name of a company where you're like all right hits all our criteria industries you know loved unloved maybe not right now. Maybe there's some you know a value discrepancy. Um maybe there's some quality what looks like quality stuff right now. But you ultimately after after the fact we're like, "Oh, these were, you know, that this is where we made the mistake or something." And you kind of did a debrief afterwards of like, "Oh, okay. These were some of the lessons learned." Love to hear a situation where you guys were in that >> and maybe some of the lessons learned >> where we made mistakes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the hard thing uh with some of these businesses um that have uh special situations and where we like they might have three or four different types of assets and we think they should sell one or two assets and they realize a tremendous amount of value. But when there's a large shareholder in place, they always don't think about the best interest of every other shareholder. And sometimes you get caught where the business can be growing um everything can be happening uh and and performing decently well, but they're they're sitting on all this these different businesses, all these different assets that could be sold and redeployed into better parts of the business. And you can say this over and over and over again to the management team that maybe you should sell, you know, one underperforming asset or one strongly performing asset and allocate capital into a better performing asset. Um, but if if they have control over the business and and don't want to listen to you, they don't have to listen to you. And sometimes you can get stuck in a name like that, waiting for that catalyst to happen or maybe they say that they're going to be selling uh assets or or looking at vestures um and it just never it never comes to fruition, right? and and sometimes businesses or management teams hold on to assets too long that they should have sold earlier and they were piecing off some of the business but not all of it. And so um sometimes you know you make mistakes like that where you're holding on for names for too long because uh you're hoping that they'll get out of certain businesses faster than they are and it just never happens and unfortunately you know things can deteriorate or you can get into different market cycles and uh and things don't work out that well. So you have to really understand that um if if it's going to be that type of situation that you're actually uh there's a clear path uh for that to occur for that that catalyst to happen. So how do you feel about you know correct me if I'm wrong you're not you don't do any kind of activism I don't think but I mean have you ever gone into a situation where you know I mean look these are again these are your concentrated portfolio you have the ear I don't want to say like that like you have the ear of management but like you have an open line of communication you know do you h do you ever get into those conversations with management teams like hey you know you're doing great it would be really great if you you know maybe spent out this bit or like did this, you know, like have you gotten or weighed in on doing any kind of suggestivism in that sense? >> Yeah, we we like to work constructively with the management team. >> Constructively is a good word there. >> Constructivism. That'll be the next phrase, you know, suggestive. Constructivism. I like that. >> And and it is it's it's a dialogue. It's a conversation. We're shareholders. The management team um is also likely a shareholder, hopefully a significant shareholder of their net worth is in that business. And that's where there's real alignment. Um but you also have to understand the incentives of of a management team. Sometimes they don't want to sell a business because uh now the business is smaller. They didn't want to be part of a smaller business. So you really have to understand how is this management team incentivized and that's going to guide whether the situation is going to come out the way that you want it to or it's going to come out the way that they want to. Um also who are the largest shareholders involved and what do they think about this name? Are they absentee shareholders or are they active board members? um are they pushing for um uh constructive outcomes for this business or are they self-interested and and there's a lot of all this that that happens in the markets um and you [snorts] got to protect yourself as an investor in these type of businesses but we love to be constructive with management teams and I think they really enjoy the having the conversations because we bring a unique perspective and we've done work not only just on their company but everyone else out there that we like to share and we can provide suggestions saying this company is doing it this way maybe you can take a look at that and we'll, you know, maybe write up them a little memo on on that and share information um as it comes up. And I think that's very helpful when you're out there actively helping these teams um and and working constructively with them. >> Absolutely. And so what's your process? you know, do you find an idea, take a small starter position and then kind of build from there or is it more like all right, we want to meet with management first, confirm, answer some questions that we had regarding, you know, all of our due diligence, you know, then take starter position and then build from there as the company continues to perform. You know, what's the process there? Uh all those things. You have to be uh very adaptive uh in the market. Uh sometimes an opportunity shows itself and you've been doing some work on it, but there's some news catalyst that's happening and you understand it uh enough where you can take a starter position. There is other times where you've done all your work up front. You've had the calls with the management team. You've spoken with everyone you need to speak with and now may just not be the right time and uh you you kind of want to wait until there's a better opportunity. So, it's really all these different things. You have to be uh you have to adapt to the market conditions in front of you. Um sometimes there's the time where you want to sit on your hands and wait and sometimes there's the time where where you want to be more active. Um and you kind of have to make that judgment call. Um and and that's probably the hardest part is you may really like a name, but you just don't feel that this is the right time to be buying it. And you might and you might have to wait. Um and at the same time, you also don't want to be too picky. So, there's just all these different things that you have to really focus about. Um, if you think a name's going to be up three, five, 10 times over the next several years and it has all these great criteria to it, well, you you kind of just want to step in there and and start uh uh uh taking a position. And in some of the names that we're in, they take longer to build a position. So, but sometimes when you start showing up, then stock starts coming to you. So it it really depends on the type of name uh the size uh that it is but you really have to be flexible and adaptive to the market conditions. >> So you mentioned that you're now you I I since inception is has it expanded beyond North America or so is Europe more recent or is that is since inception that you've been starting to look at Europe? >> Uh we always had Canada, US and Europe uh as ideas where we wanted to to focus. Canada was uh our bread and butter. We know a lot of people that here and and um and it's a really easy one for us to understand and to get in touch with the right people. >> But Europe has been a a phenomenal ground for us I would say in the last year. Uh names that we uh have become very large positions of ours are from Europe. Uh we've added two of them in the last year. And I think there's uh a number of uh European opportunities kind of forgotten names that just aren't US Canadian investors don't don't pay attention to. So we're definitely spending a lot more time uh in Europe now to find great names. >> Absolutely. What's been some of your uh your your uh I guess you say uh was it growing pains? Have you had any growing pains looking at Europe or you know do are there certain markets that you're specifically looking at in Europe for one reason or another? whether it could be valuation, language, what not. >> Uh we've focus focused a lot on the UK, although we've looked at companies in Poland and Austria and different different markets in France. Um the thing is uh trading in Europe is very different, right? It's not not just about getting up earlier, but uh the market participants and who the investors are in some of these names um is very different and how they trade is is also very different. So, you just have to be aware of some of the the nuances there. We have uh great partners um to execute trades there, but you just have to understand um how you're going to get in and out of some of these names and and um those can be a little bit trickier when you don't know uh the individual traders and and you know, people who are doing that work for you in in those countries. >> 100%. So, here's a question that I've asked everybody on here and it's probably my favorite question to ask. What would you say, you know, even whether at at Rosen at I'm butchering it Wara, you know, or even just getting your your start. What would you say was an investing experience that really helped shape, you know, your strategy and your focus, you know, currently? >> Yeah, there there there's so many. There's um uh a number of different types of special situations that uh we participated in at Warah where uh we were large shareholders and um other large shareholders called us to vote in proxies and uh kind of brought us into the table um to have conversations um and at Rosen Partnership uh it's it's been phenomenal so far. we the strategy's done um well and we're really happy with the outcome and our investors are very happy and it's just finding those special situations that finally work out um and the thesis plays out and it kind of everything uh works in your favor and and now you're thinking well you know where where's the next great one right how how do you keep replicating what you've done over and over and over again when you've looked at a lot of names right and sometimes you have to kind of create your own situations we're looking at a lot of recaps and restructurings right now um where shareholders own large positions and how do we participate in something like that. Uh the market is thin in terms of you know really great ideas out there and I think you have to be a little bit more um aggressive in trying to find your own names or trying to create your own uh opportunities in public markets. Um but working at uh you know Wartah or Rosen Partnership, there's been so many uh uh great names and and great people that you meet along the way and community that you uh create uh when you're doing investing for so long. U I think that's kind of the most rewarding part about it. >> 100%. So Jason, you know, we're pretty much at at the end here. So I mean, you know, what advice would you have for maybe either new investors or, you know, folks that have been in the micro cap space for a while? What advice do you have them would you give them, you know, that you learned over your years that maybe from a mentor or something that really helped you out a lot? >> You have to be naturally curious. And I speak to students all the time. I love speaking to students and sharing my words of wisdom and and, you know, short 30-minute call I have with them. Uh, you have to be a naturally curious person to do well in this business. There are so many things that you're constantly thinking about um day in and day out. But it it it consumes you, but in the best way. And it's not because you're always trying to find necessarily stocks um that that are going to work, but you're trying to understand all the different businesses that you like and other businesses that are really interesting that you never even thought of that exist. So, you just have to stay curious at all times. and curious individuals will have a passion for learning and finding out more information and creating that knowledge gap and finding their own edge and finding what works for them. Um, but I think that's that's the key criteria that you have um for for any you know young individual who wants to to get into this industry. >> That is incredible advice and could not agree more with that. So yeah, that's a perfect place to end it. So Jason, where can our audience go and find more information to get in touch with you and to learn more about uh Rosen Partnership? They can go to rosenpartnership.com and they can follow me on LinkedIn. >> Awesome. Well, Jason, thank you so much for joining me today. Really do appreciate it. Good luck. Stay safe and I'll I'll see you in Vegas. >> See you soon. Thanks. [music] [music] Whatever. [music]
Thinking like Private Owners in the Public Markets with Jason Kirsch, Rosen Partnership
Summary
Transcript
This podcast is forformational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell securities. SNN network Network, SNN Inc. and the Plano Microcap podcast and the representatives are not licensed brokers, broker dealers, market makers, investment bankers, investment adviserss, analysts, or underwriters. We do not recommend any companies [music] discussed. We may buy and sell securities in any company mentioned and make profit in the event those securities rise in value. We recommend you consult with a professional investment advisor, broker, or legal counsel before purchasing or selling any securities referenced in this podcast. [music] Welcome to the Planet Microap podcast. I'm your host, Robert Craft. Thank you all so much for the continued support and for tuning in. If you like what you hear on the Planet Microap podcast, please take a moment to rate us five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcast. It really helps more folks discover the show and join in on everything happening here at the Micro Cap Investing Community. We just announced our full slate of investor conferences for 2026, all in partnership with Micro Cap Club. Our next major event is Planet Micro Cap Las Vegas happening June 16 through 18, 2026 at the Bellagio. Registration is now open for that. And then later on in the year, we'll be heading back to Toronto October 27th through 29, 2026 at the Arcadian Loft. The mission is to bring the best micro cap investors and companies together to gather, connect, and grow. This includes your participation. We know you are probably putting your 2026 uh investor conference calendars together or just your general travel schedules together. And uh we'd humbly like to invite you to join us for one or both of these upcoming events. Please visit planetmicrocapshowcase.com for more information and I'll see you in Vegas and Toronto. Now, my guest on the show today is Jason Kersh, portfolio manager at Rosen Partnership and co-architect of the firm's active value strategy, a concentrated long only private owner style in approach to investing in micro cap companies across Canada, the US, and Europe. In this episode, Jason walks us through Rosen Partnership's philosophy of thinking like private owners in the public markets, buying capitalite high ROIC compounders at meaningful discounts to intrinsic value, partnering with align management teams, and using constructivism, a collaborative non-activist engagement style to help unlock long-term value. We dig deep into how Jason builds a true knowledge edge. talking not just to management, but to former executives, board members, competitors, suppliers, anyone who can broaden the mosaic and create anformational gap most investors simply aren't willing to develop. Jason also shares lessons learned from catalyst that didn't play out. How misaligned in incentives can turn a bargain into a value trap, and why understanding your own psychology is just as important to understanding any business. It's a fantastic conversation about deep research, discipline, value investing, and the craft of building a concentrated portfolio. So, with that, please enjoy my conversation with Jason Kersh from Rosen Partnership. Jason, thank you for joining me today. How you doing, man? >> Robert, I really appreciate you having me. You're doing a great service for uh the small cap community and love the Toronto conference that you hosted and looking forward to the one in Vegas uh coming up next year. >> Heck yes, dude. Well, thank you. Thank you for those kind words and uh I'm excited to host you in uh in Vegas and thank you for attending our Toronto event and yeah that was that was where I was going to start is you know we met in Toronto you know talked a little bit you know I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off so it's not like I can like dive deep into uh you know everything that's on you know Jason's mind but you know that's why I wanted to invite you on here to to you know showcase a little bit more about your investing style philosophy and whatnot. So, you know, to get us started for for those that, you know, don't know you, your background, anything like that, where did your passion for micro cap investing begin and how did that lead you to where you're currently at today as portfolio manager at Rosen Partnership? >> Yeah, sure. So, I've always had a natural curiosity, I think, in terms of how a lot of businesses work. And I think I can remember uh back when in high school we had a stock competition and I picked Apple and uh the stock went up over 50% in just over 2 months and I thought well that's that's kind of an interesting uh career path uh for me to go on and uh university uh took a BCOM at McGill and in the third year they launched the honors investment management program which probably couldn't have created a better program for someone who has a passion for uh public markets. Um we created uh starting from scratch uh a regulated uh asset management firm as part of the school. We raise capital from Canadian banks and alumni to launch uh public market strategy as well as an equity strategy plus a fixed income strategy. And it's a phenomenal program right now and and doing really well. And they brought in a lot of fantastic speakers and really allowed you to understand and learn what it's like to work at an investment management firm uh in university. And when I graduated, I joined a hedge fund right out of school. uh worked there in Montreal for a few years, then worked at another long short equity firm in Toronto and in 2022 partnered with uh Rosen Partnership and Brian Rosen who I know from uh the MBA program at McGill uh when he was there and I was in the honors program and we kept seeing in the marketplace these uh amazing opportunities uh companies that were trading extraordinarily cheaply uh huge discounts to what we would determine as their net asset value. and it really enabled us um to raise capital around the strategy. We we pitch it to several family offices and uh we launched it in March 22. We've been running it since then. >> Very good. So I mean what was I I would say while while let's say while you were at McGill and then also at um the name it was Warata right before >> you know what what were some of the key lessons that you learned about the kind of style of investing that you wanted to ultimately do now that you're at Rosen partnership that you'd say you learned during that time at Miguel was very interesting because it was the great financial crisis so there was a lot of volatility happening we were having fantastic conversations there were wonderful full alumni who would come in and speak with us at 7:30 morning meetings every single day when we were there. And having that opportunity where you're able to learn, create a structure, whether it's, you know, we had equity analysts and strategists and the same thing on the fixed income side and then slowly start to deploy capital. Um, coming out of the the crisis uh that we launched in uh 2009, we got to see kind of a lot of what was happening uh in in the market. And so and then you go into a long short hedge fund and that is a completely different world uh where you're learning so quickly uh coming out of school you think you know a little bit but you really don't know anything and you have to hit the ground running uh off the bat and had fantastic mentors in there and the thing about learning the short side of the business which was a meaningful uh part at Warton Gallanti where I worked is you have to kind of flip the script on every single name that you're looking at, right? You can be long and and benefit if the stock goes higher. You can be short or you can flip it at some point and think, well, now it's too cheap and now I actually want to be long something I used to be short. So, having that mentality of how am I going to make money on either side? How do I protect myself um from uh losses when I'm when I'm long and and how can I make money when I'm short? Provides a kind of different mentality. And we're only uh long only investors uh with our active value strategy. But that philosophy of how do you make money on both sides and how do you protect yourself against losses is kind of is crucial to how we think about margin of safety in each one of the positions that we own. >> Excellent. All right, let's dig into it a little bit here. So you have the active value strategy at Rosen Partnership. Tell us a little bit more about the uh the strategy's philosophy. Yeah, it's a concentrated uh long only portfolio uh where just a handful of names make up the majority of the portfolio and we're looking at names uh in Canada, US and Europe that uh have market caps below a billion dollars. And we're generalist by nature, although we have kind of specific names that that we like to to participate in. And we want to think like private owners in the public markets. So if we own these businesses privately, a would we want to own these businesses? What type of valuation are we getting from them? You know, how are we how would we allocate the cash flow of these businesses? And we want to have deep conversations with management teams, the board of directors, previous employees, previous CEOs at these companies and really understand the philosophy about how they're going to deliver returns for shareholders. Uh that that's the kind of key thing we want. uh these long-term compounders trading at deep discounts um to what we determine as intrinsic value and ownership uh through uh the management team or large shareholders who have a significant percentage of ownership and skin in the game um and the right uh motivating factors in there but not too much where they don't really listen to shareholders and shareholder ideas. Um so we want to create a partnership um in these companies that we own. what's intrinsically motivating CEOs? Um how do their teams operate? How do they work within their teams? Kind of all these different factors. We want to make sure that um you know they're not empire builders for the sake of empire building. Uh we want to make sure that they really understand the value of a a dollar capital and how scarce capital can be and finding the right returns um in internally in the company whether it's organically or externally through uh acquisitions. >> Excellent. All right. So let's talk about the deployment of the strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong when you say concentrate. What is it? It's about >> It's mostly 10 minutes. There you go. >> Nice. All right. So, so I mean you mentioned some of the criteria and whatnot, but tell start walking us through the process like, okay, here's our main checklist. You already kind of mentioned quite a few of them. Now, it's sourcing the idea, talking with management. Tell us about the process to where you now are like, okay, here's a candidate potentially for our 10 name concentrated portfolio. >> Right. When we started, we looked through every single publicly traded name um in Canada below a billion dollars. And that narrowed it down um into names that we found interesting that we want to kind of follow is is a lot of names and and we started doing the same thing in Europe too to find um specific opportunities. But without doing that, but without doing that, >> we wouldn't really know what's exactly what's out there. Some names come and some games go. And at War and other firms that we worked at, we were more mid and large cap uh investors. But when you find a name that is naturally compounding, it has very high returns on a cap invested capital. It's uh capital light has all these ability to over time grow. We we we don't want them to access capital. Um that can be a very dangerous thing for a lot of companies unless it's for a creative acquisition. And we want to understand, well, for every dollar that they're going to invest, what are they going to do with that dollar? Are they going to pay down dividends? Are they going to do share buybacks? Um, are they going to put it back into the business? Are there opportunities within the business that they can even deploy that capital? Uh, some companies, um, you know, they're out of one manufacturing plant and there might not actually be that much opportunity outside of that one niche, uh, industry or product or service that they're focused on. And sometimes they have to go outside that. And so do they have the capabilities to go outside that product niche? And not every company should be a public company. And some public companies um you know they kind of get lost and forgotten uh especially in small cap land. And you know it's our uh our job to find out um whether they're value traps or there's real intrinsic value left in these names. And is there some sort of catalyst um that either uh we can help with or the management team has planned out or something that is going to get the name to to go higher over time? >> Gotcha. So, I have a two-part question for you because um you know, a lot of what you're saying is you you listen to podcast like it's it's you know, you're kind of in lock step with a lot of other you know, very well-known investors that either we've had on the podcast or out there out there, you know, probably operating a little bit larger, you know, uh uh areas [laughter] than even us. But uh [clears throat] what would you say makes the the the active value strategy unique and different maybe to some others that are trying to deploy something similar and what is that you know what's that that rose and partnership style like you talk to some of these investor and like you get to know them a little bit more like all right yeah that's like that's that's a Bobby style company right there like that fits [clears throat] their profile or you know that's a you know this person style like that fits kind of what they're looking for and you guys could probably have a lot of things in common regarding the strategy itself, but still like that company is is that style of investor? Like what what does that look like for you? >> Yeah, it's a it's a great question. Um the one thing that we really try to focus on is you got to create a the foundational aspect of this business. What's the mental model that this company exists in? Right? We can all do the work and and try to find out uh who are their competitors and who's the management team and all these different things. You have to put a a framework around that. What what does this business do and how is it going to make money and does it have the ability to be a three, five, 10x type business. We really want to find these companies that have extraordinary outcomes on the upside but still be very undervalued uh from a value perspective. Um so that's one thing that we're looking at. And then there's how do you take um understanding of how this management team operates, what their incentives are, um how is the ownership structure uh put together, who are the owners in the business, and how do they want to grow this company? And then find out what what's different. You're not the first person looking at this stock. There were hundreds of thousands of other investors who participated in this name and continue to do today. So what what's the what's the edge? What's the differentiating factor that you have? And a lot of that can come down to knowledge. And it can come down to knowledge creating that knowledge gap from 90% of other investors who are in the name by doing the research and understanding all the different CEOs who uh manage that company and all the different people who work there. Um and then understand the cycle of what was this company before. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the other shareholders over a period of time and then understand where you are today and what differentiates the business today and what is it going to be in the future right if if they execute on XYZ what is that company going to look like um if they don't what is the business going to do and do they have the team in place that can do all the things that management says or that they want to do and then you got to have the margin of safety right we all we all some some people are growth investors some people are value investors We're not value investors just for having a low PE multiple or free c or high free cash flow. Um it's about intrinsic value of this business. And when we think about private ownership in a public company, we think about if we own this business privately today, what would we be getting for this company? Would would we want to own this company privately? And are there private equity investors or strategics who would actually prefer to own this company? Or maybe this company is in better hands um with some of these uh participants. So, we really want to own businesses that we would own privately and we don't really ever want to sell them. We just want to own fantastic, really great businesses um that can compound naturally over a period of time. And when you can kind of put all these different characteristics together into uh the special situation that might be this particular name, I think um that's the the key criteria. Um and then maybe even lastly is really understanding yourself as an investor. Um, how would you react in different scenarios that that happen in the future or that could potentially happen? Uh, are you the type of investor who prefers to buy on earnings? Do you like to buy when you hear the catalyst or before the catalyst? Do you buy before you meet with the management team? Um, how do you react in different situations? The key to being a great investor, you really have to understand yourself. Um, and when you can understand yourself extraordinarily well and your your tendencies and your biases, then you are a little bit different than everyone else, right? You and there's many different ways to to make money in the stock market. Um, but everyone has their own individual strategy and everyone kind of has to understand how they operate within that and um, you know, investors can can come along with the ride for that or uh, so that's always a good thing. >> No, no, for sure. There you go. All right. that that that was really good. So, I mean, you know, listen, you know that this isn't like a best ideas pod. You know, I'm not here [clears throat] to get your best idea, anything like that, but I I' love to hear an anecdote, you know, of deploying the strategy where, you know, it could be a previous idea maybe that the fund used to own or, you know, one that is current. You don't have to name the name if you want to, but love to hear an example of, you know, the strategy uh really, you know, in action. So I'll leave it to you. >> Yeah, sure. So there uh in 2022 there were a number of names that were compounding. Uh we saw you know double digits and who had you know previous um you know they they were acquired for for a certain uh purchase price and they were trading you know they could be an asset. It was trading well below where that asset was acquired. Yet the business there was nothing wrong with the business. It was generating cash flow. It's growing double digits and sometimes these businesses just need to be seen by the market and there was a lull for a very long period of time where value investing, small cap investing, it there just weren't that many market participants. I think that's that's changed a little bit more uh recently, but for a very long time there wasn't really uh that many uh people looking at some of these names or investors looking at these names. And when you can buy a name at a meaningful discount to um either where the company might have bought assets. So uh we've looked more recently at uh real estate companies and we've been able to buy them at discounts to where the management team or other shareholders got in on from some of this real estate. Yet they're growing at uh you know mid-s single digits and growing uh rental income taking out costs in these businesses. And they're very they're high quality properties. And what you're seeing in a lot of these names now is there's asset sales, there's a recycling of capital, and there's even a number of them that are going private. Um, so you kind of have to be aware of what kind of market cycle that you're in. Uh, which type of names are going to work in a particular market cycle and um, just making sure that we have a a deep discount to that intrinsic value wherever we term it. And then as long as it's compounding, it will eventually it'll eventually grow. The the business will eventually work. Investors will eventually see the name. Um it just takes time. So how do you marry the having the long-term time horizon? Correct me if I'm wrong. you know, you're out, you're looking to own something 5, 10 years, maybe more with kind of timing where the market cycle is and having that kind of like, all right, this is where we think, you know, things are happening right now and, you know, this might not be a good time to look at this industry because there might be a basket of names or a couple names that stand out that we want to hold for 5, 10 years, you know, how do you marry those two concepts? I think the key thing um besides the the way that we just think about it where we just want to own these names and and they might have a bad quarter or there might be something um short-term in the markets uh where you'd want to protect capital but it's also having the right investor base and it's it's having the investor base that knows what the strategy is about and can judge you over a 3, four, 5 year even longer time period and and that's been a key uh uh of our strategy. We want investors who really understand what we're trying to do uh can see the results over the last number of years um since we launched in March 22 and then also um be comfortable with the way we take positions. Sometimes we might own 3 4 5% uh position of a company and you can't really get out of those businesses. You have to know them very very well. Uh you have to slowly get out of them over time and but they're businesses you would always want to own. So investors just have to understand uh the type of strategy and and and how we're investing. And I think that's key to allowing the portfolio manager to invest in a way that's in the best long-term interests of their investors. We don't we're we don't want to be concerned about uh day-to-day or week-toeek volatility and in small cap land. Um prices move around uh you know 5 10% you know just just pretty easily. So um you have to be cognizant of of what you're investing into >> 100%. So, you know, running this concentrate portfolio, you know, 10 names, you know, what are some of the channel checks that you do to make sure like, okay, this is in line with some of our expectations, you know, obviously open line with management. I'm assuming you have with all these names. You sub a billion, you know, make it, you know, that big that big of a of a position. I would assume that there is probably some kind of open line with management there. But, I mean, what are some of these channel checks that you do to make sure like, okay, thesis is in line, you know, this is looking okay. while also maintaining an eye out for, you know, new opportunities as they come up. >> You have to look at the entire industry as a whole and where this company operates within that industry. And it's not just uh the one company that you're looking at in isolation. There are so many other participants that could be suppliers into that business or competitors. Um there's new technologies or new service providers that are going to be uh impacting this company. So you have to really create a full um overview of of everyone who's involved in this business. And this all comes down to you have to talk to management. You have to understand who their suppliers are and who their largest competitors are and who's some of the new competitors are. And it's not even just talking to the current management, but we love talking to previous CEOs, uh previous employees. I mean, you get a really great understanding of the history of a business, especially many of these public companies have been public companies for, you know, well over a decade or more. There's fewer companies that are going public uh these days. And having that understanding the history of the business and how it's evolved is critical to understanding where the potential future of this company is. Um, so we're always speaking with uh different competitors in the private markets. Uh we love having conversations with the management team and the board of directors and previous board members to really get an insight into um how these businesses operated and what were they thinking about when they were looking to deploy capital. Um so when you do that that actually opens up doors into other industries where you see well I really like this business for a particular reason. It's growing in its market and there's two or three other competitors. you do some work on some of those and it's actually led us to to some of the more recent names where uh we really liked our core holding and then there's a a competitor out there who is uh training at a significant discount um and also has you know special situations around them where you know there's there's potential biders out there and and other aspects that we could really um kind of sink our teeth into and is also growing double digits and kind of is just misunderstood um by the market. So sometimes your best names lead you into uh other names that that you're interested in. >> 100%. So I'd love to hear of an example and again you don't have to name the name of a company where you're like all right hits all our criteria industries you know loved unloved maybe not right now. Maybe there's some you know a value discrepancy. Um maybe there's some quality what looks like quality stuff right now. But you ultimately after after the fact we're like, "Oh, these were, you know, that this is where we made the mistake or something." And you kind of did a debrief afterwards of like, "Oh, okay. These were some of the lessons learned." Love to hear a situation where you guys were in that >> and maybe some of the lessons learned >> where we made mistakes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the hard thing uh with some of these businesses um that have uh special situations and where we like they might have three or four different types of assets and we think they should sell one or two assets and they realize a tremendous amount of value. But when there's a large shareholder in place, they always don't think about the best interest of every other shareholder. And sometimes you get caught where the business can be growing um everything can be happening uh and and performing decently well, but they're they're sitting on all this these different businesses, all these different assets that could be sold and redeployed into better parts of the business. And you can say this over and over and over again to the management team that maybe you should sell, you know, one underperforming asset or one strongly performing asset and allocate capital into a better performing asset. Um, but if if they have control over the business and and don't want to listen to you, they don't have to listen to you. And sometimes you can get stuck in a name like that, waiting for that catalyst to happen or maybe they say that they're going to be selling uh assets or or looking at vestures um and it just never it never comes to fruition, right? and and sometimes businesses or management teams hold on to assets too long that they should have sold earlier and they were piecing off some of the business but not all of it. And so um sometimes you know you make mistakes like that where you're holding on for names for too long because uh you're hoping that they'll get out of certain businesses faster than they are and it just never happens and unfortunately you know things can deteriorate or you can get into different market cycles and uh and things don't work out that well. So you have to really understand that um if if it's going to be that type of situation that you're actually uh there's a clear path uh for that to occur for that that catalyst to happen. So how do you feel about you know correct me if I'm wrong you're not you don't do any kind of activism I don't think but I mean have you ever gone into a situation where you know I mean look these are again these are your concentrated portfolio you have the ear I don't want to say like that like you have the ear of management but like you have an open line of communication you know do you h do you ever get into those conversations with management teams like hey you know you're doing great it would be really great if you you know maybe spent out this bit or like did this, you know, like have you gotten or weighed in on doing any kind of suggestivism in that sense? >> Yeah, we we like to work constructively with the management team. >> Constructively is a good word there. >> Constructivism. That'll be the next phrase, you know, suggestive. Constructivism. I like that. >> And and it is it's it's a dialogue. It's a conversation. We're shareholders. The management team um is also likely a shareholder, hopefully a significant shareholder of their net worth is in that business. And that's where there's real alignment. Um but you also have to understand the incentives of of a management team. Sometimes they don't want to sell a business because uh now the business is smaller. They didn't want to be part of a smaller business. So you really have to understand how is this management team incentivized and that's going to guide whether the situation is going to come out the way that you want it to or it's going to come out the way that they want to. Um also who are the largest shareholders involved and what do they think about this name? Are they absentee shareholders or are they active board members? um are they pushing for um uh constructive outcomes for this business or are they self-interested and and there's a lot of all this that that happens in the markets um and you [snorts] got to protect yourself as an investor in these type of businesses but we love to be constructive with management teams and I think they really enjoy the having the conversations because we bring a unique perspective and we've done work not only just on their company but everyone else out there that we like to share and we can provide suggestions saying this company is doing it this way maybe you can take a look at that and we'll, you know, maybe write up them a little memo on on that and share information um as it comes up. And I think that's very helpful when you're out there actively helping these teams um and and working constructively with them. >> Absolutely. And so what's your process? you know, do you find an idea, take a small starter position and then kind of build from there or is it more like all right, we want to meet with management first, confirm, answer some questions that we had regarding, you know, all of our due diligence, you know, then take starter position and then build from there as the company continues to perform. You know, what's the process there? Uh all those things. You have to be uh very adaptive uh in the market. Uh sometimes an opportunity shows itself and you've been doing some work on it, but there's some news catalyst that's happening and you understand it uh enough where you can take a starter position. There is other times where you've done all your work up front. You've had the calls with the management team. You've spoken with everyone you need to speak with and now may just not be the right time and uh you you kind of want to wait until there's a better opportunity. So, it's really all these different things. You have to be uh you have to adapt to the market conditions in front of you. Um sometimes there's the time where you want to sit on your hands and wait and sometimes there's the time where where you want to be more active. Um and you kind of have to make that judgment call. Um and and that's probably the hardest part is you may really like a name, but you just don't feel that this is the right time to be buying it. And you might and you might have to wait. Um and at the same time, you also don't want to be too picky. So, there's just all these different things that you have to really focus about. Um, if you think a name's going to be up three, five, 10 times over the next several years and it has all these great criteria to it, well, you you kind of just want to step in there and and start uh uh uh taking a position. And in some of the names that we're in, they take longer to build a position. So, but sometimes when you start showing up, then stock starts coming to you. So it it really depends on the type of name uh the size uh that it is but you really have to be flexible and adaptive to the market conditions. >> So you mentioned that you're now you I I since inception is has it expanded beyond North America or so is Europe more recent or is that is since inception that you've been starting to look at Europe? >> Uh we always had Canada, US and Europe uh as ideas where we wanted to to focus. Canada was uh our bread and butter. We know a lot of people that here and and um and it's a really easy one for us to understand and to get in touch with the right people. >> But Europe has been a a phenomenal ground for us I would say in the last year. Uh names that we uh have become very large positions of ours are from Europe. Uh we've added two of them in the last year. And I think there's uh a number of uh European opportunities kind of forgotten names that just aren't US Canadian investors don't don't pay attention to. So we're definitely spending a lot more time uh in Europe now to find great names. >> Absolutely. What's been some of your uh your your uh I guess you say uh was it growing pains? Have you had any growing pains looking at Europe or you know do are there certain markets that you're specifically looking at in Europe for one reason or another? whether it could be valuation, language, what not. >> Uh we've focus focused a lot on the UK, although we've looked at companies in Poland and Austria and different different markets in France. Um the thing is uh trading in Europe is very different, right? It's not not just about getting up earlier, but uh the market participants and who the investors are in some of these names um is very different and how they trade is is also very different. So, you just have to be aware of some of the the nuances there. We have uh great partners um to execute trades there, but you just have to understand um how you're going to get in and out of some of these names and and um those can be a little bit trickier when you don't know uh the individual traders and and you know, people who are doing that work for you in in those countries. >> 100%. So, here's a question that I've asked everybody on here and it's probably my favorite question to ask. What would you say, you know, even whether at at Rosen at I'm butchering it Wara, you know, or even just getting your your start. What would you say was an investing experience that really helped shape, you know, your strategy and your focus, you know, currently? >> Yeah, there there there's so many. There's um uh a number of different types of special situations that uh we participated in at Warah where uh we were large shareholders and um other large shareholders called us to vote in proxies and uh kind of brought us into the table um to have conversations um and at Rosen Partnership uh it's it's been phenomenal so far. we the strategy's done um well and we're really happy with the outcome and our investors are very happy and it's just finding those special situations that finally work out um and the thesis plays out and it kind of everything uh works in your favor and and now you're thinking well you know where where's the next great one right how how do you keep replicating what you've done over and over and over again when you've looked at a lot of names right and sometimes you have to kind of create your own situations we're looking at a lot of recaps and restructurings right now um where shareholders own large positions and how do we participate in something like that. Uh the market is thin in terms of you know really great ideas out there and I think you have to be a little bit more um aggressive in trying to find your own names or trying to create your own uh opportunities in public markets. Um but working at uh you know Wartah or Rosen Partnership, there's been so many uh uh great names and and great people that you meet along the way and community that you uh create uh when you're doing investing for so long. U I think that's kind of the most rewarding part about it. >> 100%. So Jason, you know, we're pretty much at at the end here. So I mean, you know, what advice would you have for maybe either new investors or, you know, folks that have been in the micro cap space for a while? What advice do you have them would you give them, you know, that you learned over your years that maybe from a mentor or something that really helped you out a lot? >> You have to be naturally curious. And I speak to students all the time. I love speaking to students and sharing my words of wisdom and and, you know, short 30-minute call I have with them. Uh, you have to be a naturally curious person to do well in this business. There are so many things that you're constantly thinking about um day in and day out. But it it it consumes you, but in the best way. And it's not because you're always trying to find necessarily stocks um that that are going to work, but you're trying to understand all the different businesses that you like and other businesses that are really interesting that you never even thought of that exist. So, you just have to stay curious at all times. and curious individuals will have a passion for learning and finding out more information and creating that knowledge gap and finding their own edge and finding what works for them. Um, but I think that's that's the key criteria that you have um for for any you know young individual who wants to to get into this industry. >> That is incredible advice and could not agree more with that. So yeah, that's a perfect place to end it. So Jason, where can our audience go and find more information to get in touch with you and to learn more about uh Rosen Partnership? They can go to rosenpartnership.com and they can follow me on LinkedIn. >> Awesome. Well, Jason, thank you so much for joining me today. Really do appreciate it. Good luck. Stay safe and I'll I'll see you in Vegas. >> See you soon. Thanks. [music] [music] Whatever. [music]