Matt Taibbi: Does The Rise Of Socialism Risk The End Of Western Civilization?
Summary
AI Theme: Guest likens current AI investment enthusiasm to the dot-com era, noting unclear monetization, back-of-the-napkin business plans, and risks of overinvestment and potential bubble collapse.
Market Outlook: Post-GFC reforms fell short, and markets still feel casino-like with heavy day trading, short-term horizons, and excess liquidity from COVID-era interventions.
Financial System Integrity: Banks and Wall Street still tend to “always win,” while retail participation has increased, attempting to take on hedge funds but adding to speculative behavior.
Policy & Regulation Risk: Extensive discussion of free speech and censorship highlights regulatory risks for the social media/tech ecosystem, with Europe’s DSA cited as a major overhang and U.S. risks not fully gone.
No Stock Picks: No specific public companies or tickers were pitched; the focus remained on systemic risks, AI valuation concerns, and policy dynamics.
Economic & Social Backdrop: Rising inequality, youth dissatisfaction, and cultural changes may influence market sentiment, policy choices, and risk appetite.
Investment Perspective: Maintain caution around overheated themes like AI and be mindful of regulatory and policy shocks that can affect tech and information platforms.
Transcript
Yeah, there were so many amazing insights that came with the enlightenment and you know the way that uh those ideas were deployed uh you know primarily in in the American situation but also through the French Revolution and other uh other developments. But we you know we came up with this uh system of government that had some extraordinary concepts that had never really been tried out on a grand scale before. One was this idea that um you know the people were in charge of themselves, that they had a right to overthrow their governments if the government was not acting legitimately like and even putting that on paper, right? Um the the way we uh crafted our understanding of speech and this is why speech is such a big topic now um is because it there is such a profound uh difference in how we look at speech and how everybody else looks at it. What's so strange about a lot of the the sort of modern thinking is that yeah, why why throw out the baby with the bathwater? What? Like, yes, let's improve things. Let's make life uh let's make it so that there's more um opportunity, that there's less inequality, all these things. You you can achieve those things without getting rid of freedom of speech or due process or any of those things. Uh so we we have to stand up for the fact that we made something incredible. Uh and well maybe not we but they made something incredible. We're the inheritors of it. We we're were the the stewards of it. And I I personally would feel um you know great shame if it were to vanish on our watch, right? Like that would be a failure such a failure of our generation. And I hope that's not the case. Welcome to Thoughtful Money. I'm its founder and your host, Adam Tagert. Today, we're going to start with our usual financial affair, but then branch out into other important topics impacting society today, like the state of free speech, media bias, and the role of government. I'm taking the license to do so because of our good fortune to be joined today by Matt Taibbe, one of the few remaining truly great independent journalists, a rare breed these days. Many of you know Matt from his work at Rolling Stone where among other great scoops he chronicled the unfolding of the global financial crisis as well as the abuses that caused it in a plain language manner that the general public could finally understand. Or you may know him from his pioneering work on the Twitter files exposing the government-driven censorship and narrative planting that had metastasized across the social media ecosystem during the co era. or you may know him from his ongoing work on Substack at his Racket News Channel or from the many books he's authored. We're very lucky to have him join us today, Matt. It's wonderful to see you. >> Thanks for having me, Adam. Wow, that's a very kind introduction. >> Well, I appreciate that, but it's it's just all facts. So, anyways, kudos to you for a very illustrious career. Um, so I I want to start by asking you kind of about the the financial side of things, which I don't know, Matt. I'm not sure that's the majority of your coverage anymore. I I think you're more on, >> you know, freedom and and and media uh bias and you know, role of government and all that stuff, but if you don't mind, I'd like to kind of start with with your perspective as as one of the great chroniclers of the global financial crisis. Um, >> so the question I have for you is based on, you know, what you what you're seeing now, if you're still looking at the financial system at all from your perch, did we learn anything constructive from the excesses and abuses that led to the GFC? Has the integrity of our financial system improved or worsened since? >> I I don't think we learned anything terribly constructive. Um there was maybe a little bit of specific um learning in terms of uh specifically home mortgages maybe. Um but you can still see the same kind of bubble like activity going on. Um there's, you know, there's there are a range of new financial products that uh you know, sort of simulate some a lot of the same problems that we had with mortgages. Um and I I see a lot of similarities in what's going on with AI, uh you know, an investment in that area to uh sort of similar mania that we've had. And I don't want to call it a mania because obviously the technology is really important and it's exciting and all that, >> but so is the internet and that was a mania. >> Exactly. And and and you see a lot of the same um issues with it's a great idea, but monetizing it, you know, that's not there yet. It's, you know, the business plan is has a back of the napkin kind of feel to it in some cases. Um so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I I I I get I don't cover it as regularly as I as I used to or really much at all in the last year or so, but um I do hear people um expressing a lot of the same worries, but about um sort of overinvestment and and the possibility of of uh an investment bubble collapsing. >> All right. So feel free to pass on this if you're just not close enough to the pulse anymore. But in terms of kind of the casino aspect of Wall Street where kind of no matter what happens, the banks always win and even when they don't, you know, they get they get bailed out either directly or through the back door. Do you have a sense whether that has improved at all about as bad or gotten worse? >> I think it's gotten worse. I mean I the only one the only thing that's better is that it's more democratized, right? So you see more ordinary people getting involved in the market um and you know trying to beat the the hedge funds at their own game. And a lot of people have become uh you know decided to trust themselves and not give over their savings to uh investment professionals. And so they're they're doing a lot of the same activities that we used to see from, you know, big banks on Wall Street. Um, but it's there's still a very casino-like feel to to all of it. There's a lot of day trading and um, you know, short-term thinking, you know, narrow horizon thinking and uh, that's very worrisome. Plus, there's there's the uh the overall problem of just this enormous flood of money that came, you know, after the um the COVID rescue. >> Uh and, you know, that all hasn't been taken out of the economy yet. And um so there's a sense of unreality about the about the market that I do worry about. >> Okay. Um, and I I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like what you're saying is is we we didn't really learn any real constructive lessons from the GFC. We're kind of just continuing the same game. >> I I don't I don't think we did. I mean, my big insight into that is how was covering DoddFrank and what happened after that. And you know there was an opportunity to do some really simple things about um you know uh making the the markets for certain kinds of financial instruments more more transparent um you know similar to what was done after the crash in in in 29. and they consciously decided not to do that and to make a much more complicated uh um you know sort of bure bureaucratic response and I I don't think they they they adjusted anything fundamentally after that that crash. >> Okay. All right. So that's that's the financial system side of things. Now on the economy side of things, um I got a couple questions around this. Um and we're going to get to what you talked about when I saw you last in New Orleans. Um, but the West appears to be sort of increasingly flirting with socialism right now. In your in your mind, what's what's driving that? >> Well, it's the same thing that that drove the rise of populism on the right in 2016. It's the same thing that drove the Bernie Sanders campaign. >> So, the the K-shaped economy, the the bottom majority begin to fall further behind. >> And and and you hear this the stories repeatedly. I mean, I we started hearing it um in campaign coverage as early as the uh Obama McCain campaign um where actually even earlier than that, right? There were there were a lot of people who were moving to figures like Ron Paul really early who were just incredibly frustrated with the performance of um sort of modern American uh capitalism. Uh, so we did see in Iowa, like I remember having this amazing conversation with somebody in Iowa in 2016 who had been a lifelong Democrat, um, but had had to sell the family farm and went to had been forced to go work in the local Walmart, uh, and had seen this progression of, uh, you know, an economy that was based around family farms and now was based around these multinational companies. But this person was voting for Donald Trump and and and he said essentially, "You know what? Um, you know, I work for Walmart now and when the boss says something is going to happen, it happens." And uh, and I've gotten disenchanted with uh, all these politicians who come through here and promise things and they don't happen. And so that's why we saw I think we saw a lot of people moerson who wasn't a politician um, for that reason. Now it's been almost three terms since then and or it's two and a half terms and a lot of the same problems are there and there's this enormous frustration about especially people who are like uh who are well educated um in their 20s and thinking about their future and they don't even see the possibility for instance of ever putting money down for a home or or having kids or anything like that. And because I think among other things because those people are very significantly over represented in media, there's this um there's a panic about the dysfunctionality of this economy uh that there isn't on on the conservative side and that's um that's hollowing out the support for the old school Democratic party and moving uh in particular younger support people who used to be Democrats more in the direction, right? More in direction of a Mandani or the or the DSA. Remember, Bernie used to be a DSA leader. Uh but he was, you know, politically more like an, you know, an Eisenhower Republican if you actually looked at his platform. But he's had to move along with the growing dissatisfaction within uh his own caucus. So, I think that's where it's coming from. It's young people who just don't see a future. >> Okay. So, by the way, I talk a lot about this on this channel, so so none of this is new to the the viewers here. >> I'm sorry. Yeah. >> No, no, it's perfect. You're you're adding a lot of good validation. So, um you behavioral economist Peter Atwater, who um he didn't coin the term KSAP recovery, but he's kind of the one that elevated it. Um he has a lot of great sayings, but but you know, one of them is is desperate people act desperately or you know, when you've been out standing out in the cold rain long enough, you'll get in a car with anybody, right? And is that where we're getting to with the the younger echelons of society here that are looking at the path they're being asked to step into to pursue the American dream and they're just doing the math and saying, you know what, this just looks like perpetual disappointment and servitude to me. Like this I I need something different than what what I'm being told to do because it just isn't working for me. >> Yeah. I I think there's a lot to that. Uh there's a lot of um and but some of it though is cultural and educational too, right? People in my generation um even though I think a lot of people who who went to ordinary four-year liberal arts colleges in the 80s and 90s and came out and found a very disappointing job market became disillusioned at that time. Uh there was still culturally this idea that well, you know, that's okay. You just got to, you know, dig deeper and find something, right? Like >> buckle down and hustle. Yep. >> Yeah. Exactly. Like that was still very much part of the of an ethos in this country. There wasn't an expectation that that something was just going to be given to you. Um now I think it's a combination of um a hollowing out of our education uh system uh a lack of belief in kind of some of the organizing myths about American society. U you know there you hear a lot of people talking about how the pursuit of happiness is this canard right uh that was created by you know privileged white guys. Um and yeah, society just is is structured unfairly and so that we need to we need to correct for that. Uh that's coming also, you know, with a commensurate lack of education about, you know, some of the things that I saw as a student in the Soviet Union a million years ago. Um people just don't know the history of what what some of these other uh solutions have led to or these other proposed solutions. So yeah, they it sounds great to them, you know. Um and and you can you can tell that it's real because uh one of the things that you see a lot in media right now is is not so much, >> you know, it's unfair that I'm not making as much as my nextdoor neighbor. It's the idea that there shouldn't be people who make as much as Elon Musk or Bill Gates. Like that that they just shouldn't exist, right? And that's an ideological thing that comes from somewhere that surely doesn't have anything to do with their personal experience, right? Um it's just it's just it's an idea that they're gnawing at as as they're going through a hard time in their lives. And uh that's new like we used to part of it is because the rich people really are much richer than they used to be. But um but there's also this this new idea that the the the economy is fundamentally structured unfairly. >> So so it's kind of a perfect storm where where yes the wealth gap is larger and continuing to widen. Um so just at a foundational level their their concerns are valid, but as you said um we we've sort of hollowed out the education system as you talked about. I'm sure we could talk for a whole hour on that. We have um I'm sure you're familiar with the work of of Jonathan Hate. >> Oh yeah. >> And his colleague on the the coddling of the American mind. Um >> Lukanov. Yep. >> Yeah. Yeah. I actually interviewed Greg Lukian Lukianov. Um and uh about this. It was one of my favorite most favorite interviews I've ever done. Um so, you know, we have kind of told New Generations growing up. I mean, honestly, a different a different sort of foundational story of what it means to be an American or or Westerner than previous generations had before. Then we also have kind of the toxic cancer of social media in here that is constantly pushing everybody else's relative, you know, perfect life in front of your face. Um, where you're feeling like >> Yep. That's that's another another huge factor. Yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, okay. So we we have this toxic soup I guess uh that's swirling here that is making people think and I I don't know you may have I'm sure you have a more informed opinion of this than me. I don't know if they are falling in love with socialism that they are it's more that they are they have fallen out of love with capitalism and it's it's almost a fatalistic of like all right look I feel like I'm getting screwed by the current system. You're telling me socialism is bad and it's going to screw me but at least this guy's promising me some free stuff along the way. So, if I'm going to get screwed either way, let me vote for the guy who's going to give me some free stuff. >> Yeah, I think there's something to that. Uh I think it's also a metaphysical problem though that um there there are a lot of people who just don't even know how to define happiness or how to understand what that might look like in their lives. I mean, when I when I was growing up, the idea that happiness somehow correlated to having a lot of money was totally alien. Like, I would I never thought that was the case. Um, when I was very young, I traveled when I think I was 21 years old when I moved um to Isbekiststan. I was trying to be a a reporter there. Now, I was living off a couple hundred dollars a month, which was enough there. Um, but I met people who were sort of newly freed after the Soviet Union's collapse and they would tell me things like, "You know what? If I could just have a hot dog stand somewhere in the United States and just enough money to come home and have a family and um that's like a dream life to me." And that that's how we understood the American dream once upon a time was you get your little piece of something. You got a family and uh you get you get to fall in love and and travel and do these things >> and coach little league and you know be a part of your community through the Rotary Club or whatever. Yeah. >> You have and you you have your own private religious or belief system that and that and that's what's important to you, but it's we've I'm sorry to interrupt. It's just that I think it's such a big thing that that we've become uh you know a society that measures everything um you know in these material terms uh and doesn't understand that it has no frame of reference for uh a non-material way of looking at things that that's what I worry about with young kids. >> Well, I'm so glad you're elevating that because this channel, Thoughtful Money, is a wealth-b buildinging channel. So obviously we talk an awful lot about money. I talk about the markets, talk about the economy, talk about money, but I really do my best every couple of videos to try to bring it back and ground to people that money is just a means to an end. It's not true wealth in and of itself. And the research is pretty clear. It's a lot of the things you just mentioned. It's it's social connection, like meaningful social or quality social connection, having purpose in your life, and having good health. And if you really focus on those three, that really is the recipe for a great life. And in fact, the video on this channel after this one that's going to release is about uh about meaning is a a book that just came out on the New York Times bestseller list that's all about meaning. And I I talked with the author about that. >> So I very much agree with you. But it's interesting you So we're going to get to your your time in the USSR in just a second. >> Were you Were you already there when the movie Wall Street came out, you know, with Gordon Gecko and Greed is Good. >> I was. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Cuz I think that was really a seinal shift in the American psyche, right? And then after that, you know, we just built on it, right? You know, the Paris Hilton, the Kardashians, you know, just all that stuff that really began uh lauding and and worshiping material excess, right? And then, of course, social media only added fuel to that fire. >> Actually, Adam, could I ask you a question? Have you met people who don't know that Gordon Gecko was supposed to be the villain in that movie? >> It's a great question. A lot of people see him as the protagonist. Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of people see when he when he gives the speech the Teldar paper and he talks about how uh greed clarifies greed works right and it's it's this weird um from from one angle it does sound a little bit like it's supposed to be a kind of clarion call for how how America operates but it's it's also speaks to his sort of moral bankruptcy. Uh, and there's a whole generation of people on Wall Street who who didn't see it that way, right? Who who grew up uh >> idolizing him, >> idolizing him. Yeah. And I and you know, I I don't think it leads to a good place. But anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt. >> No, no, no. It's is it's going exactly where I wanted to go. So, okay. So, when I saw you in person last, we were at the New Orleans Investment Conference a few months ago, and um I was very impressed with your talk there, but I was very impressed with the fact that it wasn't the talk you planned to give. So, um, turned out that the New York City elect mayorial election was the night before your speech and as you stood up on stage, you said, "Hey, look, it it just really got me thinking about a lot of my experiences when I spent time, you know, several years in in the USSR." And I I kind of had to throw my old speech in in the garbage because I I want to just talk to you all about the dangers of socialism. to your point earlier that not only do I think we're not teaching Americans kind of the foundational aspects of Western society and capitalism that that made Western society great, but I think we're also not teaching them about the failures of some of these other forms of government and how, you know, folks like you and I know pretty much everywhere they've been tried, they have failed or they've they've resulted in extremely oppressive regimes. Um, can you just talk for a little bit about the dangers of turning away from capitalism like this? Cuz I don't get the sense that you feel like, oh, well, this is just kids being kids and they're just going to go have their rebellious years, you know, flirting with socialism for a couple years. I think you're more concerned that that this could put us on a path that might be really hard for us to get out of. >> Yeah. I mean, I the the first time I started to worry about this was when Trump got elected and and I remember going to uh some protest rallies uh after his election and I saw I started to see kids a lot of kids in crowns waving hammer and sickle emblems and I would go up and talk to these kids and say, >> "Were they proTrump or were they protesting?" >> No, they were protesting Trump. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And and I would ask them, "What do you know about Soviet history?" Like, "Why are you waving that flag?" Like, "Did you do you do you know of any, you know, and I started asking about certain things, you know, the the camps, the goologs, that sort of thing." And it's just a it's a blank, right? Like there's there's a version of history that's now being taught where uh socialism has never been tried, right? We we've we you see that all over the place. Um it's uh essentially what a lot of young people believe is that uh the Russian revolution took place but it was hijacked uh by the dictator Stalin uh who who turned it into this authoritarian thing. And that's completely not what happened. It was already well on the way. In fact, there had already been all sorts of massacres and mass imprisonment and all this. I actually went to a um a school in Lennengrad uh when it was still Leningrad where there was a textbook uh that was still being used in 1989 uh that was teaching what happened uh in a little place called Kronstat um in uh St. Petersburg. This was before Stalin took over. This is while Trosky was still the major player uh during uh the civil war period. There was a there was a group of uh revolutionaries. They were hardcore bolsheviks. They were supporters of the revolution. They were sailors who were stationed at a station um a place in in St. Petersburg and but they weren't getting free speech and they and their election results were not being validated by the party. So they they rebelled and Trosky just had them all murdered. Uh, and I actually had a textbook. I remember reading it that described uh those sailors as um uh spies for the whites, which is, you know, that was the the Zara side of the civil war. Um the and wreckers, right? They were they were nothing of of the sort, right? So this is this is the same kind of propaganda that we're now getting in the United States which is that uh you know everything was hunky dory until Stalin over and you know that wasn't the case. I I can't, as you heard in my speech, like I saw so many horrible, awful things and heard so many firsthand accounts from people who lived in in the Soviet Union. I like I was in the basement um in a village of a town hall um not far from where Boris Yeltson grew up where you could still see the bullet holes uh from where the the local kulocks were executed. Um, yeah, I mean there's some a million stories I could tell, but the the problem is all the things that we grew up reading like the, you know, the Gulag Archipelago, the Kalema tales, uh, you know, the Robert Conquest book about the the great terror that they're just not teaching that stuff to kids anymore. So, they don't know. And so, and that's just Russia, right? That doesn't even include the the Mauist issues, you know, the the Ankar rebellion, right, in Cambodia. I mean, there's so many awful stories and they just don't know them. >> So, uh it's sort of an unfair question, but uh so obviously it makes you very concerned about the future direction of the country of society. Do you do you have faith that we can start teaching you know clarifying people's understanding and all this and we'll do it through debate and whatever we'll form the education system all that stuff or with the cycle of history does the pendulum just need to swing so that we adopt these policies and they fail spectacularly and then we pick things up from the rubble. >> I mean I I hope uh it's the former but I'm more very much worried that it's the latter. One of the things that makes me worry is that uh you see on social media that the same kind of style of politics that that uh gripped the Soviet Union in the 20s and 30s, which was this um you know, it was sort of like the the Salem witch hunts uh over and over and over again, right? Um it it became embedded in the way people thought about everything. uh so much so that it it was still a feature uh that you could see in the personalities of people 60 and 70 years later. uh they were still reflexively protesting um you know their orthodoxy all the time like that was the way people made conversation was to uh you know to to show that they didn't have secret inner uh you know forbidden thoughts and you see that on social media now people are constantly like you know whether it's the little flags they put on as emojis on on you know >> it this is a visual representation of my orthodoxy I I I I I am not a bad thinker. Right. All this stuff >> and and if you don't share it, you're the bad guy. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that's this is something that is a feature of this kind of um repressive uh society. Orwell wrote about it. Uh you know, all all of all of the Russians wrote about it. um you know Soljaniten obviously uh Shalama Fovich you know you you can find it and it's very much now part of our our uh mode of political being and that's what what I really worry about now cancel culture is like a um it's a kindergarten version of it right it's not it's not the same thing where you're marching people off and putting a bullet in the back of their heads but there is like this coldness and this mor moral al absence uh that goes with it. That really does worry me, you know, uh and I don't know how to get people out of it except except through education. Um you know, I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are. >> Well, um it's a great question. I um actually just got fairly embroiled in the tar pit on X yesterday talking about some of this stuff. But look, you're you're the king of of of getting embroiled in those things and yet still keeping your head above them. Um, which is amazing. Um, uh, let let me let So, uh, cancel culture, let's add wokeism, let's add DEI. Um, do you see those, you sort of said kindergarten, do you see those as sort of stepping stones towards a more socialistcommunist spectrum, you know, on the way to getting to where you're worried about? like are those the kind of stations we'd expect to see heading in that direction? I I think so because one of the features of um of the disaster that we that we see in you know places like the Soviet Union is you see a profession of high ideals on the one side and then in pursuit of that you'll see an increasing tolerance to throw away civil liberties. Right? So um as people become more and more anxious to reach the social goal, they'll become less and less interested in whether or not, you know, somebody's innocent of something or whether or not the person has gone through due process. And actually, we see this on both the left and the right now. Um it's this willingness to to assume somebody's guilty of something and and just go forward. That's very much a feature of like wokeism and cancel culture is yeah, you know, we have a real problem with uh let's say sexual harassment in Hollywood. So, let's do a whispering campaign where there are no standards of evidence and we just sort of put people's names out as users. Um, and that's going to the overall it's going to be a net plus. Um, but you know, you can't break make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. >> Yeah. If if there's some collateral damage along the way, sucks to be those guys, but Yeah. >> Right. >> That justifies the means. Yeah. >> Right. And you see that people sort of expressing that all um all the time, which is so weird because, you know, I I grew up kind of more on the left side. you know, I was a very much a liber Massachusetts liberal, >> but at the same time that was at a time when you could believe in say more social programming for people or uh you know governmental solutions that could help out the poor and do all all these other things without sacrificing uh free speech, due process, uh all all these other things that are um that are really important. And that's what I worry about is sudden suddenly the Bill of Rights is just not important to people. Uh and where that comes from, I'm not I'm not sure. >> Yeah. And that that was really what I took from your speech in New Orleans was your your multiple observations that as as people began, you know, the the even though it's sold as everybody's equal, right? the power concentrates in the decision makers and everyone's trying to get closer to the the power center. Uh but the power center is increasingly concentrating and pushing more and more people out. So as they get more and more desperate, they're willing to essentially throw their neighbors under the bus to be able to try to get clo you still stay close to the warmth of the sun, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What's it's funny that you use that uh metaphor like that there there was the great movie about um I think it's the only uh Russian Oscar winner was burnt by the sun that was the uh the great movie from the '9s about what happened during the uh the Soviet period. Um it it was exactly the same metaphor. There was a director named Mikallov who did it. Yeah, absolutely. That's what's going on is is um people become anxious and the really frustrating thing is that there's like a basic lesson about all this stuff that used to come um instinctively to people who were you know social liberals on the left. Ira Glasser who was the great ACLU lawyer who the guy who he was the person who oversaw the representation of the uh marchers of the Nazi marchers in Skoi right so he's he was the great speech champion his his point was that if you allow uh the government to if you if you allow somebody to say the Nazis can't march in Skoi Illinois you're putting somebody in charge of it right and And who do you think that somebody's going to be? It's not going to be you ultimately, right? And this is the thing that I think is being forgotten in all this um anxiety to make sure that certain kinds of things are suppressed is that you're you're creating a mechanism uh and somebody's going to be in charge of it and it's almost certainly not going to be you in in the end. And that's that's what I worry about is that people are are so anxious to get rid of the bad thing that they they forget about the mechanics of it. >> Yeah. And that's I think that's one of the great things about Western society is is you know humans are still using wet wear 1.0 from the caveman days, right? And so um western society particularly uh the constitution and America's form of government has been one of the most successful ways to kind of separate us from our baser nature and we see that times we lapse right Salem witch trials McCarthyism era right um so we can slip back into that you know that tribal uh you know the the tribal shortcomings right um So, uh, I saw you in, uh, again at New Orleans. I think it was three years ago now. Um, and I moderated a panel that you were on with, uh, a few other good thinkers. One of them was Constantine Kissen. >> Um, and Constantine made a real plea in in in that panel where he said, "Look, uh, and remember this is three years ago, so go back in your mind a bit, pre-Trump, you know, second administration. um you know, America in the West is basically um subjugating itself and saying, "Look, we we're we've been responsible for all these terrible things, you know, whether it's colonialism, whether it's patriarchy, you know, whether it's whatever and and gosh, you know, we need to be uh vilified for that and we need to somehow pay the world back and all this stuff." But he basically said, "Look, you guys are are like like western society better stand up for itself soon or it's going to lose its it its position here." And like, yeah, no societyy's perfect, but show me a better one that that's had a more, you know, positive influence on the world than western society. And if we let that get dismantled, and make no mistake, there are organ, you know, there are parties out there that would love to try to dismantle it or at least just try to pillage it, right? Take all its its prosperity for themselves. um he's like you're going to lose it. So um you're nodding as I'm saying all this, but I mean is the West kind of in an existential is this sort somewhat of an existential moment for the West where we've got to say, "Yeah, look, we're imperfect, but like we're not we're not that bad. And if we just focus on calling ourselves to our better angels, we can make the future even better. Like let's not let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater here." >> You're Yeah, you're absolutely right. And Constantine is absolutely right. He was he was right then. It's it's this whole idea that you know there were so many amazing insights that came with the enlightenment and you know the way that uh those ideas were deployed uh you know primarily in in the American situation but also through the French Revolution and other uh other developments. But we, you know, we came up with this uh system of government that had some extraordinary concepts that had never really been tried out on a grand scale before. One was this idea that um you know the people were in charge of themselves, that they had a right to overthrow their governments if the government was not acting legitimately like and even putting that on paper, right? Um the the way we uh crafted our understanding of speech and this is why speech is such a big topic now um is because there is such a profound uh difference in how we look at speech and how everybody else looks at it. um the American version uh you know when James Madison was doing I think it was the Virginia Declaration of Rights there was a I think he had to choose between using the language toleration of religion and freedom of religion and he he he came up with this idea that if you say toleration that implies that the government has purview over religion >> if you say freedom of religion what you're doing is recognizing that something is free and they came up with they ended up with freedom of religion that became the basis of freedom of speech which again is this concept that it's not the government is allowing us to speak it's that we we have freedom of speech it exists it can't be it can't be controlled it shouldn't be controlled and the government does not have a legitimate interest in controlling it um that is totally unique and what's so strange about a lot of the the sort of modern progressive uh thinking is that yeah, why why throw out the baby with the bathwater? What like yes, let's improve things. Let's make life uh let's make it so that there's more um opportunity, that there's less inequality, all these things. You you can achieve those things without getting rid of freedom of speech or due process or any of those things. Uh so Constantine's exactly right. We we have to stand up for the fact that we made something incredible. Uh and well, maybe not we, but they made something incredible. We're the inheritors of it. We we're the stewards of it. And I I personally would feel um you know, great shame if it were to vanish on our watch, right? Like that would be a failure, such a failure of our generation. And uh I hope that's not the case. Well, I hope it doesn't come across as bootlicking, but you are one of the I mean people furthest out on the vanguard of this and you take a lot of slings and arrows for it, but you're out there every day fighting the good fight. So, thank you for all your work there. >> No, thank you too. No, likewise. I know I know this is a a big subject for you, too. So, >> well, and not the way it is for you. Um, all right. So, um, uh, so after having been through the Twitter files and seeing how, uh, entwined the government got in speech regulation here in the States, um, I mean, a lot of people, I think, were shocked by that and they probably have the mindset now that like, okay, but it got exposed and they're not doing it anymore and and we're back to regular free speech. Um, is that an erroneous assumption or or or did the sun did the sun shine really work as as disinfected? >> Um, so I think it would be it would be wrong to think that the the threat is passed, right? There certainly were a lot of concrete steps that were taken that were really important like they actually got rid of the state department agency that was doing um you know engaged in uh I would say censorship type activities here here in the US they >> sorry who who was the they was that under the old administration or the new one >> under well it was created by the Obama administration it it it's been in existence since then that they were one of the big characters in the Twitter files and and they've been eliminated. The the FBI's the foreign influence task force um my understanding is that that's no longer functional. Um so there were a bunch of the Stanford Internet Observatory which was doing uh work with the government. Um, >> yeah, >> it a lot of those bure bureaucracies have been closed, which is why you hear people like Rand Paul talking about yet the the anti-spech bureaucracy has been shut down. The thing is though, there there are still um there's still an awful lot of money in that sector. There's still a huge collection of NOS's that do this sort of flagging work. Um we still see in the Trump administration there have been plenty of um examples where you you would worry about how they're thinking about speech. Uh the Europe this week is going to have a message on Christmas Day that's going to feature Jimmy Kimmel. Um that's ironic however because the Europe has certainly gone into overdrive in terms of its speech enforcement in the last nine months or so. I that was my next question to you. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so and and and the reason that's significant is because the thing that we saw in the Twitter files and unfortunately that I didn't really understand until the most of the story was passed was that uh there had already been construct constructed in Europe this enormous sophisticated uh government bureaucracy that was designed to to monitor and censor speech at a grand scale. Right. uh and the the one sticking point was the United States. This was articulated by John Kerry uh who actually said this out loud and at a WF conference. You know, he talked about how the First Amendment is a major a major block to our ability to hammer misinformation out of existence. Um and >> that pesky first amendment >> that pesky first amendment. Yeah, exactly. And so you we did eventually see uh there were there were communications between Europe, the United States, uh certain agencies within the the US government, um some NOS's, the military, oddly enough, NATO, uh and the whole the major theme was trying to get the United States to be folded into this larger system. And I thought that was so terrifying. Like that was the reason uh like I was freaking out last year. Uh I I thought that if the Democrats were reelected that we would certainly be folded into uh the digital services act regime um and it would become like a pan western system. That possibility is still on the table. I think people have to understand that like that's not going away. uh the the speech regulation bureaucracy is is becoming more advanced uh and emboldened um in our former uh western allies in Europe and in Canada and in New Zealand, Australia, all those places. Um the United States is different, but it's not out of the woods by any means. This is still a very very dicey situation. Okay. So, um I'm going to go here anyways even though it's difficult to talk about this in a way that people interpret as partisan. >> Um I I you know, one of the things I really appreciate about appreciate about you, Matt, is you just talk about what is and the facts and you get slammed all the time for people who are reading a partisan angle one way or the other into it. And I love how people are, you know, flaming you because they think you, you know, you're a Trump lover and of course you wrote the book The Insane Cloud President. Um, and then other people think you're a pinko, which probably shows me you're doing it right because you're getting criticism from both sides. But, um, you know, a lot of what you were uncovering during the Twitter files were things that had been a put together, you know, in a previous administration, but but were getting uh put on steroids during the Biden administration because of COVID and all that stuff. That was a, you know, central control was desired even more to try to protect us from misinformation and whatnot. Um, now the Trump administration has actively decided to chart a different course and to your point has has dismantled some of this stuff. Um, again, not noting this objectively. What is your interpretation of the current administration's policies as compared to the previous ones on the issues you care about most? >> So, uh, it's a great question. I think the if you were a pure first amendment uh defender and you know like a like the old school ACLU, you would pl you would find plenty of things in this current administration to be to be upset about. And you can look at Greg Lukanov's uh organization FIRE and see that they filed um plenty at least >> at least one major suit against the the Trump administration over um their uh sort of catch and deport policies, right? Uh there there were there was a Supreme Court case in the 40s that basically said that once people come to the United States, they're entitled to the same uh speech protections as citizens. Uh and there's a little bit of a problem because the law is divided here, right? The Bush administration uh created new immigration laws that basically give the president the right to deport people for speech reasons. Um but that case is still on the books. So there's a challenge that needs to be made like which one is uh superior. But I would say like uh you know as an American I don't I don't want people coming in this country who are even non-citizens and worrying about what they have to say if it's protected legal speech. Right? Uh so I know that there are a lot of people who are Trump supporters who who say well hey there are visitors here. They should watch what they what they're saying. and they shouldn't they shouldn't criticize and um I I understand the frustration with that but it's it's a it's an endound to get at the first amendment. On the other hand, the Trump administration doesn't have like an organized um bureaucratic uh idea about completely eliminating the First Amendment or or or establishing full government control over speech. they it seems like when they do get in trouble with the first amendment, it's incidentally as part of some other program they're pursuing, right? So they want they want to deport all all of these people who um are undocumented. Uh so as a consequence of that, they'll go back and they'll they'll look at editorials they've written or something along those lines. Technically, that is a First Amendment violation. Same thing with, you know, Trump wants to make a point about the Gulf of America, so he tosses AP out of his office, right? It is technically a First Amendment violation. It isn't one that exercises me ter terribly. Um, but, you know, uh, I just there are serious issues. I just think people have to remember to put it side by side with what what you're looking at in Europe, which is you have this digital services act, which is overtly a censorship law. Um, and it's, you know, sort of pan uh continental and uh gives the government uh almost limitless power uh to to police speech. And that's just that's just the European laws. Like most of the individual countries have even stronger laws where you're seeing people regularly jailed for memes and things like this, right? >> Uh and some of them are friends of mine. Um including Americans like I have a friend who's a playwright in in uh in Germany who's who just got arrested again uh for a book cover. Uh so we don't have that here. like that's even though we have some some issues with speech and Trump I would I wouldn't say Trump is like a first amendment theorist or anything like that but it's not it's not the sort of diabolical let's let's find a a a really clever way to undermine the first amendment type of thing. Um that was what we saw in the Twitter files. Okay. So, a higher level question. Um, we talked earlier about, you know, the the the risk of Western civilization kind of, you know, getting dismantled. Um, and it's time to, we said, step up for for Western society. Um, do you feel do you have an opinion? is the you if we were heading one direction under the previous administration, are we heading more towards the the right direction now with all of its imperfections? Um or no? >> Uh I mean the one thing the one reason that I'm um I'm a little bit more tolerant of what tolerance is the wrong word. uh the Donald Trump at least was legally elected, right? So what you're seeing what you are seeing are for instance the policies that are so controversial about uh the deportation policies and closing the border and all those things. Um people did vote for that at least, right? Uh what I worry about is a situation where you have a minority of basically unaccountable, faceless bureaucrats who are imposing um you know a series of ideas that we don't even that aren't even visible to us. Uh that scares me a lot more than a highly aggressive um you know set of policies by an administration that feels like it has en you know enemies within the uh within the the country's bureaucracy. There's no question that there's some dangerous stuff going on uh with the Trump administration. I think they, you know, they have certainly a tendency to color outside the lines, but uh I I worry more about the just sort of mass bureaucratization of of government um and the elimination of uh this idea of a balance of power completely because I I do think that that's that's the competing idea here. Um and that's what that's what what Europe is heading toward. Uh, and it scares me. Although, you know, not not to say that there aren't scary things here, too, but I I just think the other thing scares me more. >> Yeah. Um, there's so many threads I'd love to pull on here, but we're getting near the end of the hour here. Um, let me ask you this, Matt. So, if uh if the American people said, you know what, Matt, we really think you you got a great vision for how this country should be. We're going to give you a blank sheet of paper. Um, what reforms would you most like to see the US implement? Um, what are some of the ones that would be on that list? >> God, that's that's such a tough one. >> It could be anywhere. It can be around free speech. It could be media. It can be civil liberty. It can be economic. >> Uh, I don't know. I mean, I I I think a lot of my concerns right now are in the area of um, you know, education speech. Um I don't know. I'd have to sit down and think about it. I mean like >> So it sounds like education reform would be a big one. >> Ed education reform would be a big one. Um you know I think there has to be some something probably involving the Fed, you know. >> Okay. >> And you know some kind of way of addressing what you talked about previously, the sort of casino like nature of the economy. It's I've been been sort of out of that game for a while. Uh but in terms of what I've been covering for the last five or six years, um you know, it that's just like a firefighting issue. Like it is not even one where I can even think of a big philosophical solutions. It's just like desperately trying to prevent something bad from happening. So, um I don't know. I'd have to sit sit down and think of it. Uh most of the time, you know, journalists, we're not in the solutions business. We're in the identifying problems business. So, >> right. >> Um, if you're asking me to think that that means things are have already gotten to a pretty serious place. So, um, but but I I I certainly, you know, you know what I would say? I I would say that the thing that we were discussing before is the thing that gives me the biggest pause as as like a father too and uh is like the lack of um a metaphysical grounding for people growing up like uh you know some some kind of unifying culture um or belief system. it just seems to be absent and I I don't think a society can live for very long without something to believe in. And um you know that's a big task, right? I don't know I don't even know how to to address that. But that that needs to be dealt with somehow. >> All right. So since you mentioned that I've had some deep discussions on this channel recently about value systems, you know, whether that's whether that's religion, whether it's community organizations, things like that, right? And and it's essentially what western society is, right? It's it's a series of values and then everything else hangs off of those values here, right? So to your question, like how do we how do we a a clarify what values we as a society elevate and then how do we expose our our our populace to them, especially younger people as they they rise, they grow in this world. So let me ask you this idea, and I'm not asking you to to love it or hate it. I'm just curious to get your general reaction. What do you think about like a national service? So, you know, say you're 18 and you know, you got to give a year or two and it could be anything. It's not just military service. You could be doing public works. You could be working in the education system. You could be working in the health care system, you know, building bridges, whatever. Right. Um, what do you think? >> I'm very in favor of that. Um, I don't know anybody uh who who has been through that who hasn't had a positive experience with that. That's every like I had a friend who who uh who was Swiss uh who I think was briefly in the papal guard or was was going to be um but at the very least had to do like a year in the military. Um most of the Russian friends that I had um you know they had to deal deal with some kind of uh service. Um, so you it was amazing, you know, in the '9s you you would meet beautiful women in clubs who could put uh, you know, an AK-47 together in 3 seconds. Um, >> I spent a summer in Israel and met a lot of those women. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exa Exactly. Uh, but you know, no, I think I think it's an important thing like it builds community. It builds this idea of having an investment uh, in the society. Um, and it also helps uh, you know, create uh, give some grounding to to people at an age when they're, you know, they need they need to learn how to break away from um, from being home all the time. Uh, so yeah, I'm very in favor of that. I think that would be a great thing. Like a, you know, maybe Peace Corps meets uh, you know, a draft type of thing. I don't know. I don't know what it would be, but I think that is a good idea. >> Okay, great. Yeah, it's related to the tarpit. I got uh trapped in on X yesterday. But uh um it is something >> against that. >> Yeah, I mean there's all sorts of things. Well, I tied it to to something else which I I don't want to mention here because I don't want the comment section to rat hole. Um but like you I I think that there's a lot of good that can come from it. Um particularly society and uh you know, not only the skill learning, right? You know, rather than just kids continuing to just potentially get trapped on their phones and whatever, right? you're actually learning some practical skills, but also you're out there in the world meeting people from other parts of the country, right? And so you're you're importantly, I mean, when there's social benefits from that, but more importantly, you realize, hey, people from different walks of life and me, people who have different beliefs than I do, different religions, I'm liberal, they're conservative, whatever, they're all still real people, right? I mean, there's something about really tightening the the social fabric that you get from that. So, yeah, I'm a fan of it. Um people can definitely especially after yesterday they can definitely debate how they would might want that implemented but um uh like you I think that that would be a good thing to explore. Um all right so uh you and your team at Racket um are like I said you're you're some of the last and best real investigative journalists out there. Is there are there any big projects that you guys are working on right now that you can you can share? >> Well, we're in the middle of trying to do something. Um but I think uh the news business is is in crisis at the moment. Um it's it's been in crisis for a while as as I think people are aware of. But uh the kind of news that existed when my father was um joining it in the in the late 60s and early 70s when you know nobody knew what a reporter's political views were. the the the idea of reporting was just getting the facts together and then letting the the audience sort that out, >> right? >> Um, you know, that's gone and nobody knows whom to trust anymore. So, we we are trying to think of I'm thinking I'm trying to find a way to, you know, hire some more people and structure some beats and and sort of reinstill that type of journalism again. Um the pro the problem is that the way the the business is organized right now it rewards kind of uh the strong voice as opposed to just information. So uh but probably going to move more in that direction of just like a straight news um that has no point of view. Uh I I'm trying I'm trying to figure out a way to do that. Let's put it that the world the world definitely needs it and um I I think there are enough people out there and I think a lot of them are watching this video right now who you know are craving that and and will pay to support those models. So you know if and as you you have new things you're trying to release that you know require a little bit of funding or a little bit of public support you know please feel free to ask this audience. >> Excellent. Well thank you very much. I we'll see we'll see what comes out of it. But yeah, no, I I hope it uh I hope we're able to come up with something. So that would be Yep. >> Well, I'll be cheering you on. So for folks that would like to follow you and your work, Matt, where should they go? >> Um we're on Substack at uh www.raket.news and I'm on Twitter at mta. So mtibbi. >> All right, great. and Matt, when I edit this uh I will put the uh your URL and your Twitter handle or your ex handle up there on the screen uh so folks know where to go. Folks, the links will also be in the description below this video here. Um folks, uh Matt, thank you. I This has been a fantastic privilege. Thank you so much. Folks, please join me in expressing your appreciation for Matt by hitting the like button and then hitting the subscribe button below if you haven't already, as well as that little bell right next to it. Um, yeah, Matt, like I said, thank you so much for coming on, especially making the time during the winter holidays here. Merry Christmas to you and your family. Um, you know, we're both uh uh you know, Boston suburb boys um from the old days. >> Which Boston suburb are you from? >> Marblehead. >> Oh, right. Okay. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and fact on on on X, I just shared one of my um Christmas tree ornaments, which is a little a little jar of fluff. You grew up having fluffern nutters. >> Fluffinetta. >> Yeah, fluffinetas. Yeah. >> Excellent. No, thank you. Thank you, Adam. And hope hope you feel better. Get get over your flu. >> Thanks. Well, this this >> this has been such a pleasant distraction from it. So, I'm already feeling better from that. So, thank you. >> All right, Matt. Well, hopefully we'll see you again on here in 2026. And everybody else, thanks so much for watching.
Matt Taibbi: Does The Rise Of Socialism Risk The End Of Western Civilization?
Summary
Transcript
Yeah, there were so many amazing insights that came with the enlightenment and you know the way that uh those ideas were deployed uh you know primarily in in the American situation but also through the French Revolution and other uh other developments. But we you know we came up with this uh system of government that had some extraordinary concepts that had never really been tried out on a grand scale before. One was this idea that um you know the people were in charge of themselves, that they had a right to overthrow their governments if the government was not acting legitimately like and even putting that on paper, right? Um the the way we uh crafted our understanding of speech and this is why speech is such a big topic now um is because it there is such a profound uh difference in how we look at speech and how everybody else looks at it. What's so strange about a lot of the the sort of modern thinking is that yeah, why why throw out the baby with the bathwater? What? Like, yes, let's improve things. Let's make life uh let's make it so that there's more um opportunity, that there's less inequality, all these things. You you can achieve those things without getting rid of freedom of speech or due process or any of those things. Uh so we we have to stand up for the fact that we made something incredible. Uh and well maybe not we but they made something incredible. We're the inheritors of it. We we're were the the stewards of it. And I I personally would feel um you know great shame if it were to vanish on our watch, right? Like that would be a failure such a failure of our generation. And I hope that's not the case. Welcome to Thoughtful Money. I'm its founder and your host, Adam Tagert. Today, we're going to start with our usual financial affair, but then branch out into other important topics impacting society today, like the state of free speech, media bias, and the role of government. I'm taking the license to do so because of our good fortune to be joined today by Matt Taibbe, one of the few remaining truly great independent journalists, a rare breed these days. Many of you know Matt from his work at Rolling Stone where among other great scoops he chronicled the unfolding of the global financial crisis as well as the abuses that caused it in a plain language manner that the general public could finally understand. Or you may know him from his pioneering work on the Twitter files exposing the government-driven censorship and narrative planting that had metastasized across the social media ecosystem during the co era. or you may know him from his ongoing work on Substack at his Racket News Channel or from the many books he's authored. We're very lucky to have him join us today, Matt. It's wonderful to see you. >> Thanks for having me, Adam. Wow, that's a very kind introduction. >> Well, I appreciate that, but it's it's just all facts. So, anyways, kudos to you for a very illustrious career. Um, so I I want to start by asking you kind of about the the financial side of things, which I don't know, Matt. I'm not sure that's the majority of your coverage anymore. I I think you're more on, >> you know, freedom and and and media uh bias and you know, role of government and all that stuff, but if you don't mind, I'd like to kind of start with with your perspective as as one of the great chroniclers of the global financial crisis. Um, >> so the question I have for you is based on, you know, what you what you're seeing now, if you're still looking at the financial system at all from your perch, did we learn anything constructive from the excesses and abuses that led to the GFC? Has the integrity of our financial system improved or worsened since? >> I I don't think we learned anything terribly constructive. Um there was maybe a little bit of specific um learning in terms of uh specifically home mortgages maybe. Um but you can still see the same kind of bubble like activity going on. Um there's, you know, there's there are a range of new financial products that uh you know, sort of simulate some a lot of the same problems that we had with mortgages. Um and I I see a lot of similarities in what's going on with AI, uh you know, an investment in that area to uh sort of similar mania that we've had. And I don't want to call it a mania because obviously the technology is really important and it's exciting and all that, >> but so is the internet and that was a mania. >> Exactly. And and and you see a lot of the same um issues with it's a great idea, but monetizing it, you know, that's not there yet. It's, you know, the business plan is has a back of the napkin kind of feel to it in some cases. Um so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I I I I get I don't cover it as regularly as I as I used to or really much at all in the last year or so, but um I do hear people um expressing a lot of the same worries, but about um sort of overinvestment and and the possibility of of uh an investment bubble collapsing. >> All right. So feel free to pass on this if you're just not close enough to the pulse anymore. But in terms of kind of the casino aspect of Wall Street where kind of no matter what happens, the banks always win and even when they don't, you know, they get they get bailed out either directly or through the back door. Do you have a sense whether that has improved at all about as bad or gotten worse? >> I think it's gotten worse. I mean I the only one the only thing that's better is that it's more democratized, right? So you see more ordinary people getting involved in the market um and you know trying to beat the the hedge funds at their own game. And a lot of people have become uh you know decided to trust themselves and not give over their savings to uh investment professionals. And so they're they're doing a lot of the same activities that we used to see from, you know, big banks on Wall Street. Um, but it's there's still a very casino-like feel to to all of it. There's a lot of day trading and um, you know, short-term thinking, you know, narrow horizon thinking and uh, that's very worrisome. Plus, there's there's the uh the overall problem of just this enormous flood of money that came, you know, after the um the COVID rescue. >> Uh and, you know, that all hasn't been taken out of the economy yet. And um so there's a sense of unreality about the about the market that I do worry about. >> Okay. Um, and I I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like what you're saying is is we we didn't really learn any real constructive lessons from the GFC. We're kind of just continuing the same game. >> I I don't I don't think we did. I mean, my big insight into that is how was covering DoddFrank and what happened after that. And you know there was an opportunity to do some really simple things about um you know uh making the the markets for certain kinds of financial instruments more more transparent um you know similar to what was done after the crash in in in 29. and they consciously decided not to do that and to make a much more complicated uh um you know sort of bure bureaucratic response and I I don't think they they they adjusted anything fundamentally after that that crash. >> Okay. All right. So that's that's the financial system side of things. Now on the economy side of things, um I got a couple questions around this. Um and we're going to get to what you talked about when I saw you last in New Orleans. Um, but the West appears to be sort of increasingly flirting with socialism right now. In your in your mind, what's what's driving that? >> Well, it's the same thing that that drove the rise of populism on the right in 2016. It's the same thing that drove the Bernie Sanders campaign. >> So, the the K-shaped economy, the the bottom majority begin to fall further behind. >> And and and you hear this the stories repeatedly. I mean, I we started hearing it um in campaign coverage as early as the uh Obama McCain campaign um where actually even earlier than that, right? There were there were a lot of people who were moving to figures like Ron Paul really early who were just incredibly frustrated with the performance of um sort of modern American uh capitalism. Uh, so we did see in Iowa, like I remember having this amazing conversation with somebody in Iowa in 2016 who had been a lifelong Democrat, um, but had had to sell the family farm and went to had been forced to go work in the local Walmart, uh, and had seen this progression of, uh, you know, an economy that was based around family farms and now was based around these multinational companies. But this person was voting for Donald Trump and and and he said essentially, "You know what? Um, you know, I work for Walmart now and when the boss says something is going to happen, it happens." And uh, and I've gotten disenchanted with uh, all these politicians who come through here and promise things and they don't happen. And so that's why we saw I think we saw a lot of people moerson who wasn't a politician um, for that reason. Now it's been almost three terms since then and or it's two and a half terms and a lot of the same problems are there and there's this enormous frustration about especially people who are like uh who are well educated um in their 20s and thinking about their future and they don't even see the possibility for instance of ever putting money down for a home or or having kids or anything like that. And because I think among other things because those people are very significantly over represented in media, there's this um there's a panic about the dysfunctionality of this economy uh that there isn't on on the conservative side and that's um that's hollowing out the support for the old school Democratic party and moving uh in particular younger support people who used to be Democrats more in the direction, right? More in direction of a Mandani or the or the DSA. Remember, Bernie used to be a DSA leader. Uh but he was, you know, politically more like an, you know, an Eisenhower Republican if you actually looked at his platform. But he's had to move along with the growing dissatisfaction within uh his own caucus. So, I think that's where it's coming from. It's young people who just don't see a future. >> Okay. So, by the way, I talk a lot about this on this channel, so so none of this is new to the the viewers here. >> I'm sorry. Yeah. >> No, no, it's perfect. You're you're adding a lot of good validation. So, um you behavioral economist Peter Atwater, who um he didn't coin the term KSAP recovery, but he's kind of the one that elevated it. Um he has a lot of great sayings, but but you know, one of them is is desperate people act desperately or you know, when you've been out standing out in the cold rain long enough, you'll get in a car with anybody, right? And is that where we're getting to with the the younger echelons of society here that are looking at the path they're being asked to step into to pursue the American dream and they're just doing the math and saying, you know what, this just looks like perpetual disappointment and servitude to me. Like this I I need something different than what what I'm being told to do because it just isn't working for me. >> Yeah. I I think there's a lot to that. Uh there's a lot of um and but some of it though is cultural and educational too, right? People in my generation um even though I think a lot of people who who went to ordinary four-year liberal arts colleges in the 80s and 90s and came out and found a very disappointing job market became disillusioned at that time. Uh there was still culturally this idea that well, you know, that's okay. You just got to, you know, dig deeper and find something, right? Like >> buckle down and hustle. Yep. >> Yeah. Exactly. Like that was still very much part of the of an ethos in this country. There wasn't an expectation that that something was just going to be given to you. Um now I think it's a combination of um a hollowing out of our education uh system uh a lack of belief in kind of some of the organizing myths about American society. U you know there you hear a lot of people talking about how the pursuit of happiness is this canard right uh that was created by you know privileged white guys. Um and yeah, society just is is structured unfairly and so that we need to we need to correct for that. Uh that's coming also, you know, with a commensurate lack of education about, you know, some of the things that I saw as a student in the Soviet Union a million years ago. Um people just don't know the history of what what some of these other uh solutions have led to or these other proposed solutions. So yeah, they it sounds great to them, you know. Um and and you can you can tell that it's real because uh one of the things that you see a lot in media right now is is not so much, >> you know, it's unfair that I'm not making as much as my nextdoor neighbor. It's the idea that there shouldn't be people who make as much as Elon Musk or Bill Gates. Like that that they just shouldn't exist, right? And that's an ideological thing that comes from somewhere that surely doesn't have anything to do with their personal experience, right? Um it's just it's just it's an idea that they're gnawing at as as they're going through a hard time in their lives. And uh that's new like we used to part of it is because the rich people really are much richer than they used to be. But um but there's also this this new idea that the the the economy is fundamentally structured unfairly. >> So so it's kind of a perfect storm where where yes the wealth gap is larger and continuing to widen. Um so just at a foundational level their their concerns are valid, but as you said um we we've sort of hollowed out the education system as you talked about. I'm sure we could talk for a whole hour on that. We have um I'm sure you're familiar with the work of of Jonathan Hate. >> Oh yeah. >> And his colleague on the the coddling of the American mind. Um >> Lukanov. Yep. >> Yeah. Yeah. I actually interviewed Greg Lukian Lukianov. Um and uh about this. It was one of my favorite most favorite interviews I've ever done. Um so, you know, we have kind of told New Generations growing up. I mean, honestly, a different a different sort of foundational story of what it means to be an American or or Westerner than previous generations had before. Then we also have kind of the toxic cancer of social media in here that is constantly pushing everybody else's relative, you know, perfect life in front of your face. Um, where you're feeling like >> Yep. That's that's another another huge factor. Yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, okay. So we we have this toxic soup I guess uh that's swirling here that is making people think and I I don't know you may have I'm sure you have a more informed opinion of this than me. I don't know if they are falling in love with socialism that they are it's more that they are they have fallen out of love with capitalism and it's it's almost a fatalistic of like all right look I feel like I'm getting screwed by the current system. You're telling me socialism is bad and it's going to screw me but at least this guy's promising me some free stuff along the way. So, if I'm going to get screwed either way, let me vote for the guy who's going to give me some free stuff. >> Yeah, I think there's something to that. Uh I think it's also a metaphysical problem though that um there there are a lot of people who just don't even know how to define happiness or how to understand what that might look like in their lives. I mean, when I when I was growing up, the idea that happiness somehow correlated to having a lot of money was totally alien. Like, I would I never thought that was the case. Um, when I was very young, I traveled when I think I was 21 years old when I moved um to Isbekiststan. I was trying to be a a reporter there. Now, I was living off a couple hundred dollars a month, which was enough there. Um, but I met people who were sort of newly freed after the Soviet Union's collapse and they would tell me things like, "You know what? If I could just have a hot dog stand somewhere in the United States and just enough money to come home and have a family and um that's like a dream life to me." And that that's how we understood the American dream once upon a time was you get your little piece of something. You got a family and uh you get you get to fall in love and and travel and do these things >> and coach little league and you know be a part of your community through the Rotary Club or whatever. Yeah. >> You have and you you have your own private religious or belief system that and that and that's what's important to you, but it's we've I'm sorry to interrupt. It's just that I think it's such a big thing that that we've become uh you know a society that measures everything um you know in these material terms uh and doesn't understand that it has no frame of reference for uh a non-material way of looking at things that that's what I worry about with young kids. >> Well, I'm so glad you're elevating that because this channel, Thoughtful Money, is a wealth-b buildinging channel. So obviously we talk an awful lot about money. I talk about the markets, talk about the economy, talk about money, but I really do my best every couple of videos to try to bring it back and ground to people that money is just a means to an end. It's not true wealth in and of itself. And the research is pretty clear. It's a lot of the things you just mentioned. It's it's social connection, like meaningful social or quality social connection, having purpose in your life, and having good health. And if you really focus on those three, that really is the recipe for a great life. And in fact, the video on this channel after this one that's going to release is about uh about meaning is a a book that just came out on the New York Times bestseller list that's all about meaning. And I I talked with the author about that. >> So I very much agree with you. But it's interesting you So we're going to get to your your time in the USSR in just a second. >> Were you Were you already there when the movie Wall Street came out, you know, with Gordon Gecko and Greed is Good. >> I was. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Cuz I think that was really a seinal shift in the American psyche, right? And then after that, you know, we just built on it, right? You know, the Paris Hilton, the Kardashians, you know, just all that stuff that really began uh lauding and and worshiping material excess, right? And then, of course, social media only added fuel to that fire. >> Actually, Adam, could I ask you a question? Have you met people who don't know that Gordon Gecko was supposed to be the villain in that movie? >> It's a great question. A lot of people see him as the protagonist. Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of people see when he when he gives the speech the Teldar paper and he talks about how uh greed clarifies greed works right and it's it's this weird um from from one angle it does sound a little bit like it's supposed to be a kind of clarion call for how how America operates but it's it's also speaks to his sort of moral bankruptcy. Uh, and there's a whole generation of people on Wall Street who who didn't see it that way, right? Who who grew up uh >> idolizing him, >> idolizing him. Yeah. And I and you know, I I don't think it leads to a good place. But anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt. >> No, no, no. It's is it's going exactly where I wanted to go. So, okay. So, when I saw you in person last, we were at the New Orleans Investment Conference a few months ago, and um I was very impressed with your talk there, but I was very impressed with the fact that it wasn't the talk you planned to give. So, um, turned out that the New York City elect mayorial election was the night before your speech and as you stood up on stage, you said, "Hey, look, it it just really got me thinking about a lot of my experiences when I spent time, you know, several years in in the USSR." And I I kind of had to throw my old speech in in the garbage because I I want to just talk to you all about the dangers of socialism. to your point earlier that not only do I think we're not teaching Americans kind of the foundational aspects of Western society and capitalism that that made Western society great, but I think we're also not teaching them about the failures of some of these other forms of government and how, you know, folks like you and I know pretty much everywhere they've been tried, they have failed or they've they've resulted in extremely oppressive regimes. Um, can you just talk for a little bit about the dangers of turning away from capitalism like this? Cuz I don't get the sense that you feel like, oh, well, this is just kids being kids and they're just going to go have their rebellious years, you know, flirting with socialism for a couple years. I think you're more concerned that that this could put us on a path that might be really hard for us to get out of. >> Yeah. I mean, I the the first time I started to worry about this was when Trump got elected and and I remember going to uh some protest rallies uh after his election and I saw I started to see kids a lot of kids in crowns waving hammer and sickle emblems and I would go up and talk to these kids and say, >> "Were they proTrump or were they protesting?" >> No, they were protesting Trump. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And and I would ask them, "What do you know about Soviet history?" Like, "Why are you waving that flag?" Like, "Did you do you do you know of any, you know, and I started asking about certain things, you know, the the camps, the goologs, that sort of thing." And it's just a it's a blank, right? Like there's there's a version of history that's now being taught where uh socialism has never been tried, right? We we've we you see that all over the place. Um it's uh essentially what a lot of young people believe is that uh the Russian revolution took place but it was hijacked uh by the dictator Stalin uh who who turned it into this authoritarian thing. And that's completely not what happened. It was already well on the way. In fact, there had already been all sorts of massacres and mass imprisonment and all this. I actually went to a um a school in Lennengrad uh when it was still Leningrad where there was a textbook uh that was still being used in 1989 uh that was teaching what happened uh in a little place called Kronstat um in uh St. Petersburg. This was before Stalin took over. This is while Trosky was still the major player uh during uh the civil war period. There was a there was a group of uh revolutionaries. They were hardcore bolsheviks. They were supporters of the revolution. They were sailors who were stationed at a station um a place in in St. Petersburg and but they weren't getting free speech and they and their election results were not being validated by the party. So they they rebelled and Trosky just had them all murdered. Uh, and I actually had a textbook. I remember reading it that described uh those sailors as um uh spies for the whites, which is, you know, that was the the Zara side of the civil war. Um the and wreckers, right? They were they were nothing of of the sort, right? So this is this is the same kind of propaganda that we're now getting in the United States which is that uh you know everything was hunky dory until Stalin over and you know that wasn't the case. I I can't, as you heard in my speech, like I saw so many horrible, awful things and heard so many firsthand accounts from people who lived in in the Soviet Union. I like I was in the basement um in a village of a town hall um not far from where Boris Yeltson grew up where you could still see the bullet holes uh from where the the local kulocks were executed. Um, yeah, I mean there's some a million stories I could tell, but the the problem is all the things that we grew up reading like the, you know, the Gulag Archipelago, the Kalema tales, uh, you know, the Robert Conquest book about the the great terror that they're just not teaching that stuff to kids anymore. So, they don't know. And so, and that's just Russia, right? That doesn't even include the the Mauist issues, you know, the the Ankar rebellion, right, in Cambodia. I mean, there's so many awful stories and they just don't know them. >> So, uh it's sort of an unfair question, but uh so obviously it makes you very concerned about the future direction of the country of society. Do you do you have faith that we can start teaching you know clarifying people's understanding and all this and we'll do it through debate and whatever we'll form the education system all that stuff or with the cycle of history does the pendulum just need to swing so that we adopt these policies and they fail spectacularly and then we pick things up from the rubble. >> I mean I I hope uh it's the former but I'm more very much worried that it's the latter. One of the things that makes me worry is that uh you see on social media that the same kind of style of politics that that uh gripped the Soviet Union in the 20s and 30s, which was this um you know, it was sort of like the the Salem witch hunts uh over and over and over again, right? Um it it became embedded in the way people thought about everything. uh so much so that it it was still a feature uh that you could see in the personalities of people 60 and 70 years later. uh they were still reflexively protesting um you know their orthodoxy all the time like that was the way people made conversation was to uh you know to to show that they didn't have secret inner uh you know forbidden thoughts and you see that on social media now people are constantly like you know whether it's the little flags they put on as emojis on on you know >> it this is a visual representation of my orthodoxy I I I I I am not a bad thinker. Right. All this stuff >> and and if you don't share it, you're the bad guy. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that's this is something that is a feature of this kind of um repressive uh society. Orwell wrote about it. Uh you know, all all of all of the Russians wrote about it. um you know Soljaniten obviously uh Shalama Fovich you know you you can find it and it's very much now part of our our uh mode of political being and that's what what I really worry about now cancel culture is like a um it's a kindergarten version of it right it's not it's not the same thing where you're marching people off and putting a bullet in the back of their heads but there is like this coldness and this mor moral al absence uh that goes with it. That really does worry me, you know, uh and I don't know how to get people out of it except except through education. Um you know, I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are. >> Well, um it's a great question. I um actually just got fairly embroiled in the tar pit on X yesterday talking about some of this stuff. But look, you're you're the king of of of getting embroiled in those things and yet still keeping your head above them. Um, which is amazing. Um, uh, let let me let So, uh, cancel culture, let's add wokeism, let's add DEI. Um, do you see those, you sort of said kindergarten, do you see those as sort of stepping stones towards a more socialistcommunist spectrum, you know, on the way to getting to where you're worried about? like are those the kind of stations we'd expect to see heading in that direction? I I think so because one of the features of um of the disaster that we that we see in you know places like the Soviet Union is you see a profession of high ideals on the one side and then in pursuit of that you'll see an increasing tolerance to throw away civil liberties. Right? So um as people become more and more anxious to reach the social goal, they'll become less and less interested in whether or not, you know, somebody's innocent of something or whether or not the person has gone through due process. And actually, we see this on both the left and the right now. Um it's this willingness to to assume somebody's guilty of something and and just go forward. That's very much a feature of like wokeism and cancel culture is yeah, you know, we have a real problem with uh let's say sexual harassment in Hollywood. So, let's do a whispering campaign where there are no standards of evidence and we just sort of put people's names out as users. Um, and that's going to the overall it's going to be a net plus. Um, but you know, you can't break make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. >> Yeah. If if there's some collateral damage along the way, sucks to be those guys, but Yeah. >> Right. >> That justifies the means. Yeah. >> Right. And you see that people sort of expressing that all um all the time, which is so weird because, you know, I I grew up kind of more on the left side. you know, I was a very much a liber Massachusetts liberal, >> but at the same time that was at a time when you could believe in say more social programming for people or uh you know governmental solutions that could help out the poor and do all all these other things without sacrificing uh free speech, due process, uh all all these other things that are um that are really important. And that's what I worry about is sudden suddenly the Bill of Rights is just not important to people. Uh and where that comes from, I'm not I'm not sure. >> Yeah. And that that was really what I took from your speech in New Orleans was your your multiple observations that as as people began, you know, the the even though it's sold as everybody's equal, right? the power concentrates in the decision makers and everyone's trying to get closer to the the power center. Uh but the power center is increasingly concentrating and pushing more and more people out. So as they get more and more desperate, they're willing to essentially throw their neighbors under the bus to be able to try to get clo you still stay close to the warmth of the sun, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What's it's funny that you use that uh metaphor like that there there was the great movie about um I think it's the only uh Russian Oscar winner was burnt by the sun that was the uh the great movie from the '9s about what happened during the uh the Soviet period. Um it it was exactly the same metaphor. There was a director named Mikallov who did it. Yeah, absolutely. That's what's going on is is um people become anxious and the really frustrating thing is that there's like a basic lesson about all this stuff that used to come um instinctively to people who were you know social liberals on the left. Ira Glasser who was the great ACLU lawyer who the guy who he was the person who oversaw the representation of the uh marchers of the Nazi marchers in Skoi right so he's he was the great speech champion his his point was that if you allow uh the government to if you if you allow somebody to say the Nazis can't march in Skoi Illinois you're putting somebody in charge of it right and And who do you think that somebody's going to be? It's not going to be you ultimately, right? And this is the thing that I think is being forgotten in all this um anxiety to make sure that certain kinds of things are suppressed is that you're you're creating a mechanism uh and somebody's going to be in charge of it and it's almost certainly not going to be you in in the end. And that's that's what I worry about is that people are are so anxious to get rid of the bad thing that they they forget about the mechanics of it. >> Yeah. And that's I think that's one of the great things about Western society is is you know humans are still using wet wear 1.0 from the caveman days, right? And so um western society particularly uh the constitution and America's form of government has been one of the most successful ways to kind of separate us from our baser nature and we see that times we lapse right Salem witch trials McCarthyism era right um so we can slip back into that you know that tribal uh you know the the tribal shortcomings right um So, uh, I saw you in, uh, again at New Orleans. I think it was three years ago now. Um, and I moderated a panel that you were on with, uh, a few other good thinkers. One of them was Constantine Kissen. >> Um, and Constantine made a real plea in in in that panel where he said, "Look, uh, and remember this is three years ago, so go back in your mind a bit, pre-Trump, you know, second administration. um you know, America in the West is basically um subjugating itself and saying, "Look, we we're we've been responsible for all these terrible things, you know, whether it's colonialism, whether it's patriarchy, you know, whether it's whatever and and gosh, you know, we need to be uh vilified for that and we need to somehow pay the world back and all this stuff." But he basically said, "Look, you guys are are like like western society better stand up for itself soon or it's going to lose its it its position here." And like, yeah, no societyy's perfect, but show me a better one that that's had a more, you know, positive influence on the world than western society. And if we let that get dismantled, and make no mistake, there are organ, you know, there are parties out there that would love to try to dismantle it or at least just try to pillage it, right? Take all its its prosperity for themselves. um he's like you're going to lose it. So um you're nodding as I'm saying all this, but I mean is the West kind of in an existential is this sort somewhat of an existential moment for the West where we've got to say, "Yeah, look, we're imperfect, but like we're not we're not that bad. And if we just focus on calling ourselves to our better angels, we can make the future even better. Like let's not let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater here." >> You're Yeah, you're absolutely right. And Constantine is absolutely right. He was he was right then. It's it's this whole idea that you know there were so many amazing insights that came with the enlightenment and you know the way that uh those ideas were deployed uh you know primarily in in the American situation but also through the French Revolution and other uh other developments. But we, you know, we came up with this uh system of government that had some extraordinary concepts that had never really been tried out on a grand scale before. One was this idea that um you know the people were in charge of themselves, that they had a right to overthrow their governments if the government was not acting legitimately like and even putting that on paper, right? Um the the way we uh crafted our understanding of speech and this is why speech is such a big topic now um is because there is such a profound uh difference in how we look at speech and how everybody else looks at it. um the American version uh you know when James Madison was doing I think it was the Virginia Declaration of Rights there was a I think he had to choose between using the language toleration of religion and freedom of religion and he he he came up with this idea that if you say toleration that implies that the government has purview over religion >> if you say freedom of religion what you're doing is recognizing that something is free and they came up with they ended up with freedom of religion that became the basis of freedom of speech which again is this concept that it's not the government is allowing us to speak it's that we we have freedom of speech it exists it can't be it can't be controlled it shouldn't be controlled and the government does not have a legitimate interest in controlling it um that is totally unique and what's so strange about a lot of the the sort of modern progressive uh thinking is that yeah, why why throw out the baby with the bathwater? What like yes, let's improve things. Let's make life uh let's make it so that there's more um opportunity, that there's less inequality, all these things. You you can achieve those things without getting rid of freedom of speech or due process or any of those things. Uh so Constantine's exactly right. We we have to stand up for the fact that we made something incredible. Uh and well, maybe not we, but they made something incredible. We're the inheritors of it. We we're the stewards of it. And I I personally would feel um you know, great shame if it were to vanish on our watch, right? Like that would be a failure, such a failure of our generation. And uh I hope that's not the case. Well, I hope it doesn't come across as bootlicking, but you are one of the I mean people furthest out on the vanguard of this and you take a lot of slings and arrows for it, but you're out there every day fighting the good fight. So, thank you for all your work there. >> No, thank you too. No, likewise. I know I know this is a a big subject for you, too. So, >> well, and not the way it is for you. Um, all right. So, um, uh, so after having been through the Twitter files and seeing how, uh, entwined the government got in speech regulation here in the States, um, I mean, a lot of people, I think, were shocked by that and they probably have the mindset now that like, okay, but it got exposed and they're not doing it anymore and and we're back to regular free speech. Um, is that an erroneous assumption or or or did the sun did the sun shine really work as as disinfected? >> Um, so I think it would be it would be wrong to think that the the threat is passed, right? There certainly were a lot of concrete steps that were taken that were really important like they actually got rid of the state department agency that was doing um you know engaged in uh I would say censorship type activities here here in the US they >> sorry who who was the they was that under the old administration or the new one >> under well it was created by the Obama administration it it it's been in existence since then that they were one of the big characters in the Twitter files and and they've been eliminated. The the FBI's the foreign influence task force um my understanding is that that's no longer functional. Um so there were a bunch of the Stanford Internet Observatory which was doing uh work with the government. Um, >> yeah, >> it a lot of those bure bureaucracies have been closed, which is why you hear people like Rand Paul talking about yet the the anti-spech bureaucracy has been shut down. The thing is though, there there are still um there's still an awful lot of money in that sector. There's still a huge collection of NOS's that do this sort of flagging work. Um we still see in the Trump administration there have been plenty of um examples where you you would worry about how they're thinking about speech. Uh the Europe this week is going to have a message on Christmas Day that's going to feature Jimmy Kimmel. Um that's ironic however because the Europe has certainly gone into overdrive in terms of its speech enforcement in the last nine months or so. I that was my next question to you. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so and and and the reason that's significant is because the thing that we saw in the Twitter files and unfortunately that I didn't really understand until the most of the story was passed was that uh there had already been construct constructed in Europe this enormous sophisticated uh government bureaucracy that was designed to to monitor and censor speech at a grand scale. Right. uh and the the one sticking point was the United States. This was articulated by John Kerry uh who actually said this out loud and at a WF conference. You know, he talked about how the First Amendment is a major a major block to our ability to hammer misinformation out of existence. Um and >> that pesky first amendment >> that pesky first amendment. Yeah, exactly. And so you we did eventually see uh there were there were communications between Europe, the United States, uh certain agencies within the the US government, um some NOS's, the military, oddly enough, NATO, uh and the whole the major theme was trying to get the United States to be folded into this larger system. And I thought that was so terrifying. Like that was the reason uh like I was freaking out last year. Uh I I thought that if the Democrats were reelected that we would certainly be folded into uh the digital services act regime um and it would become like a pan western system. That possibility is still on the table. I think people have to understand that like that's not going away. uh the the speech regulation bureaucracy is is becoming more advanced uh and emboldened um in our former uh western allies in Europe and in Canada and in New Zealand, Australia, all those places. Um the United States is different, but it's not out of the woods by any means. This is still a very very dicey situation. Okay. So, um I'm going to go here anyways even though it's difficult to talk about this in a way that people interpret as partisan. >> Um I I you know, one of the things I really appreciate about appreciate about you, Matt, is you just talk about what is and the facts and you get slammed all the time for people who are reading a partisan angle one way or the other into it. And I love how people are, you know, flaming you because they think you, you know, you're a Trump lover and of course you wrote the book The Insane Cloud President. Um, and then other people think you're a pinko, which probably shows me you're doing it right because you're getting criticism from both sides. But, um, you know, a lot of what you were uncovering during the Twitter files were things that had been a put together, you know, in a previous administration, but but were getting uh put on steroids during the Biden administration because of COVID and all that stuff. That was a, you know, central control was desired even more to try to protect us from misinformation and whatnot. Um, now the Trump administration has actively decided to chart a different course and to your point has has dismantled some of this stuff. Um, again, not noting this objectively. What is your interpretation of the current administration's policies as compared to the previous ones on the issues you care about most? >> So, uh, it's a great question. I think the if you were a pure first amendment uh defender and you know like a like the old school ACLU, you would pl you would find plenty of things in this current administration to be to be upset about. And you can look at Greg Lukanov's uh organization FIRE and see that they filed um plenty at least >> at least one major suit against the the Trump administration over um their uh sort of catch and deport policies, right? Uh there there were there was a Supreme Court case in the 40s that basically said that once people come to the United States, they're entitled to the same uh speech protections as citizens. Uh and there's a little bit of a problem because the law is divided here, right? The Bush administration uh created new immigration laws that basically give the president the right to deport people for speech reasons. Um but that case is still on the books. So there's a challenge that needs to be made like which one is uh superior. But I would say like uh you know as an American I don't I don't want people coming in this country who are even non-citizens and worrying about what they have to say if it's protected legal speech. Right? Uh so I know that there are a lot of people who are Trump supporters who who say well hey there are visitors here. They should watch what they what they're saying. and they shouldn't they shouldn't criticize and um I I understand the frustration with that but it's it's a it's an endound to get at the first amendment. On the other hand, the Trump administration doesn't have like an organized um bureaucratic uh idea about completely eliminating the First Amendment or or or establishing full government control over speech. they it seems like when they do get in trouble with the first amendment, it's incidentally as part of some other program they're pursuing, right? So they want they want to deport all all of these people who um are undocumented. Uh so as a consequence of that, they'll go back and they'll they'll look at editorials they've written or something along those lines. Technically, that is a First Amendment violation. Same thing with, you know, Trump wants to make a point about the Gulf of America, so he tosses AP out of his office, right? It is technically a First Amendment violation. It isn't one that exercises me ter terribly. Um, but, you know, uh, I just there are serious issues. I just think people have to remember to put it side by side with what what you're looking at in Europe, which is you have this digital services act, which is overtly a censorship law. Um, and it's, you know, sort of pan uh continental and uh gives the government uh almost limitless power uh to to police speech. And that's just that's just the European laws. Like most of the individual countries have even stronger laws where you're seeing people regularly jailed for memes and things like this, right? >> Uh and some of them are friends of mine. Um including Americans like I have a friend who's a playwright in in uh in Germany who's who just got arrested again uh for a book cover. Uh so we don't have that here. like that's even though we have some some issues with speech and Trump I would I wouldn't say Trump is like a first amendment theorist or anything like that but it's not it's not the sort of diabolical let's let's find a a a really clever way to undermine the first amendment type of thing. Um that was what we saw in the Twitter files. Okay. So, a higher level question. Um, we talked earlier about, you know, the the the risk of Western civilization kind of, you know, getting dismantled. Um, and it's time to, we said, step up for for Western society. Um, do you feel do you have an opinion? is the you if we were heading one direction under the previous administration, are we heading more towards the the right direction now with all of its imperfections? Um or no? >> Uh I mean the one thing the one reason that I'm um I'm a little bit more tolerant of what tolerance is the wrong word. uh the Donald Trump at least was legally elected, right? So what you're seeing what you are seeing are for instance the policies that are so controversial about uh the deportation policies and closing the border and all those things. Um people did vote for that at least, right? Uh what I worry about is a situation where you have a minority of basically unaccountable, faceless bureaucrats who are imposing um you know a series of ideas that we don't even that aren't even visible to us. Uh that scares me a lot more than a highly aggressive um you know set of policies by an administration that feels like it has en you know enemies within the uh within the the country's bureaucracy. There's no question that there's some dangerous stuff going on uh with the Trump administration. I think they, you know, they have certainly a tendency to color outside the lines, but uh I I worry more about the just sort of mass bureaucratization of of government um and the elimination of uh this idea of a balance of power completely because I I do think that that's that's the competing idea here. Um and that's what that's what what Europe is heading toward. Uh, and it scares me. Although, you know, not not to say that there aren't scary things here, too, but I I just think the other thing scares me more. >> Yeah. Um, there's so many threads I'd love to pull on here, but we're getting near the end of the hour here. Um, let me ask you this, Matt. So, if uh if the American people said, you know what, Matt, we really think you you got a great vision for how this country should be. We're going to give you a blank sheet of paper. Um, what reforms would you most like to see the US implement? Um, what are some of the ones that would be on that list? >> God, that's that's such a tough one. >> It could be anywhere. It can be around free speech. It could be media. It can be civil liberty. It can be economic. >> Uh, I don't know. I mean, I I I think a lot of my concerns right now are in the area of um, you know, education speech. Um I don't know. I'd have to sit down and think about it. I mean like >> So it sounds like education reform would be a big one. >> Ed education reform would be a big one. Um you know I think there has to be some something probably involving the Fed, you know. >> Okay. >> And you know some kind of way of addressing what you talked about previously, the sort of casino like nature of the economy. It's I've been been sort of out of that game for a while. Uh but in terms of what I've been covering for the last five or six years, um you know, it that's just like a firefighting issue. Like it is not even one where I can even think of a big philosophical solutions. It's just like desperately trying to prevent something bad from happening. So, um I don't know. I'd have to sit sit down and think of it. Uh most of the time, you know, journalists, we're not in the solutions business. We're in the identifying problems business. So, >> right. >> Um, if you're asking me to think that that means things are have already gotten to a pretty serious place. So, um, but but I I I certainly, you know, you know what I would say? I I would say that the thing that we were discussing before is the thing that gives me the biggest pause as as like a father too and uh is like the lack of um a metaphysical grounding for people growing up like uh you know some some kind of unifying culture um or belief system. it just seems to be absent and I I don't think a society can live for very long without something to believe in. And um you know that's a big task, right? I don't know I don't even know how to to address that. But that that needs to be dealt with somehow. >> All right. So since you mentioned that I've had some deep discussions on this channel recently about value systems, you know, whether that's whether that's religion, whether it's community organizations, things like that, right? And and it's essentially what western society is, right? It's it's a series of values and then everything else hangs off of those values here, right? So to your question, like how do we how do we a a clarify what values we as a society elevate and then how do we expose our our our populace to them, especially younger people as they they rise, they grow in this world. So let me ask you this idea, and I'm not asking you to to love it or hate it. I'm just curious to get your general reaction. What do you think about like a national service? So, you know, say you're 18 and you know, you got to give a year or two and it could be anything. It's not just military service. You could be doing public works. You could be working in the education system. You could be working in the health care system, you know, building bridges, whatever. Right. Um, what do you think? >> I'm very in favor of that. Um, I don't know anybody uh who who has been through that who hasn't had a positive experience with that. That's every like I had a friend who who uh who was Swiss uh who I think was briefly in the papal guard or was was going to be um but at the very least had to do like a year in the military. Um most of the Russian friends that I had um you know they had to deal deal with some kind of uh service. Um, so you it was amazing, you know, in the '9s you you would meet beautiful women in clubs who could put uh, you know, an AK-47 together in 3 seconds. Um, >> I spent a summer in Israel and met a lot of those women. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exa Exactly. Uh, but you know, no, I think I think it's an important thing like it builds community. It builds this idea of having an investment uh, in the society. Um, and it also helps uh, you know, create uh, give some grounding to to people at an age when they're, you know, they need they need to learn how to break away from um, from being home all the time. Uh, so yeah, I'm very in favor of that. I think that would be a great thing. Like a, you know, maybe Peace Corps meets uh, you know, a draft type of thing. I don't know. I don't know what it would be, but I think that is a good idea. >> Okay, great. Yeah, it's related to the tarpit. I got uh trapped in on X yesterday. But uh um it is something >> against that. >> Yeah, I mean there's all sorts of things. Well, I tied it to to something else which I I don't want to mention here because I don't want the comment section to rat hole. Um but like you I I think that there's a lot of good that can come from it. Um particularly society and uh you know, not only the skill learning, right? You know, rather than just kids continuing to just potentially get trapped on their phones and whatever, right? you're actually learning some practical skills, but also you're out there in the world meeting people from other parts of the country, right? And so you're you're importantly, I mean, when there's social benefits from that, but more importantly, you realize, hey, people from different walks of life and me, people who have different beliefs than I do, different religions, I'm liberal, they're conservative, whatever, they're all still real people, right? I mean, there's something about really tightening the the social fabric that you get from that. So, yeah, I'm a fan of it. Um people can definitely especially after yesterday they can definitely debate how they would might want that implemented but um uh like you I think that that would be a good thing to explore. Um all right so uh you and your team at Racket um are like I said you're you're some of the last and best real investigative journalists out there. Is there are there any big projects that you guys are working on right now that you can you can share? >> Well, we're in the middle of trying to do something. Um but I think uh the news business is is in crisis at the moment. Um it's it's been in crisis for a while as as I think people are aware of. But uh the kind of news that existed when my father was um joining it in the in the late 60s and early 70s when you know nobody knew what a reporter's political views were. the the the idea of reporting was just getting the facts together and then letting the the audience sort that out, >> right? >> Um, you know, that's gone and nobody knows whom to trust anymore. So, we we are trying to think of I'm thinking I'm trying to find a way to, you know, hire some more people and structure some beats and and sort of reinstill that type of journalism again. Um the pro the problem is that the way the the business is organized right now it rewards kind of uh the strong voice as opposed to just information. So uh but probably going to move more in that direction of just like a straight news um that has no point of view. Uh I I'm trying I'm trying to figure out a way to do that. Let's put it that the world the world definitely needs it and um I I think there are enough people out there and I think a lot of them are watching this video right now who you know are craving that and and will pay to support those models. So you know if and as you you have new things you're trying to release that you know require a little bit of funding or a little bit of public support you know please feel free to ask this audience. >> Excellent. Well thank you very much. I we'll see we'll see what comes out of it. But yeah, no, I I hope it uh I hope we're able to come up with something. So that would be Yep. >> Well, I'll be cheering you on. So for folks that would like to follow you and your work, Matt, where should they go? >> Um we're on Substack at uh www.raket.news and I'm on Twitter at mta. So mtibbi. >> All right, great. and Matt, when I edit this uh I will put the uh your URL and your Twitter handle or your ex handle up there on the screen uh so folks know where to go. Folks, the links will also be in the description below this video here. Um folks, uh Matt, thank you. I This has been a fantastic privilege. Thank you so much. Folks, please join me in expressing your appreciation for Matt by hitting the like button and then hitting the subscribe button below if you haven't already, as well as that little bell right next to it. Um, yeah, Matt, like I said, thank you so much for coming on, especially making the time during the winter holidays here. Merry Christmas to you and your family. Um, you know, we're both uh uh you know, Boston suburb boys um from the old days. >> Which Boston suburb are you from? >> Marblehead. >> Oh, right. Okay. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and fact on on on X, I just shared one of my um Christmas tree ornaments, which is a little a little jar of fluff. You grew up having fluffern nutters. >> Fluffinetta. >> Yeah, fluffinetas. Yeah. >> Excellent. No, thank you. Thank you, Adam. And hope hope you feel better. Get get over your flu. >> Thanks. Well, this this >> this has been such a pleasant distraction from it. So, I'm already feeling better from that. So, thank you. >> All right, Matt. Well, hopefully we'll see you again on here in 2026. And everybody else, thanks so much for watching.