Millenial Investing - The Investor's Podcast Network
Aug 12, 2024

More Than You Know: Financial Wisdom for Wise Investing w/ Shawn O’Malley (MI364)

Summary

  • Core Philosophy: Emphasizes process over outcomes and multidisciplinary thinking to navigate markets as complex adaptive systems.
  • Disruptive Innovation: Advocates favoring new, fast-changing industries and companies leveraging software and technology over resource-heavy incumbents.
  • Creative Destruction: Highlights evidence that new entrants often outperform incumbents, especially in their first five years, before advantages fade.
  • S-Curve Growth: Identifies two inflection points—early acceleration for opportunity and later deceleration for risk—urging focus on early winners and survivors.
  • Information Technology: Discusses how software-driven, knowledge-based firms command different economics and valuations versus industrial-era companies.
  • Key Examples: References Amazon, Google, Facebook, Tesla, and Nvidia as illustrative cases of skewed outcomes and innovation dynamics, not specific pitches.
  • Risks and Expectations: Warns against overreliance on historical P/E averages, stresses mean reversion in returns, and encourages expectations-based analysis.
  • Behavioral Factors: Notes stress, commitment, and social herding can distort decisions, reinforcing the need for logs, skepticism, and long-term orientation.

Transcript

(00:00) a quality investment philosophy is like  a good diet it only works if it is sensible   over the Long Haul and you stick with it with  the point being that what ultimately matters   is one's decision-making process not short-term  results many investors get started with these sort   of half-baked philosophies on how they like to  invest they find some short-term success and then   constantly update that philosophy based on random  variations of their results so they end up chasing   insights with no North Star guiding [Music] (00:35) them on today's episode I'll be   reviewing Michael Moon's excellent book more  than you know if you're not familiar with him   mobison is one of the top voices in the value  investing space the early days of his career   began under the tutelage of the great investor  Bill Miller and he's gone on to become the head   of credit s's Global Financial strategies  team director of research at Blue Mountain   Capital Chief investment strategist at leag Mason  capital management and more recently he has led  (01:03) Counterpoint Global's consilient  research team along the way he's worked as   an Adjunct professor at Columbia University for  over three decades where he's taught the security   analysis course written four books on investing  and served as chairman of the Board of Trustees   at the Santa Fe Institute more than you know  is divided into four essays meant to stand by   themselves and act as Tools in investors  toolboxes covering investment philosophy   the psychology of invest in Innovation  and competitive strategy and Science and  (01:33) complexity Theory I'll be going through  each of the four essays summarizing them and   sharing my favorite insights we'll cover topics  like how the stock market is a complex adaptive   system and what that means the pitfalls of  using past price to earnings ratios when   valuing companies why process is so important  to investing what a world with increasing   technological disruptions means for investors  and much more with that let's get right to it   to kick things off moison describes the  importance of multidisciplinary thinking  (02:07) which anyone who has followed Charlie  Munger closely will be familiar with you also   might recall my discussion of it in reviewing  poor Charlie's Almanac a few weeks ago the key   idea is that expertise in Academia is too often  confined to specific departments psychologists   talk to other psychologists and economists  talk to other economists and so on but the   most fertile intellectual ground lies between  disciplines whereas Monger was completely   self-taught and never distracted by the musings of  financial academics moison credits monger's focus  (02:40) on multi-disciplinary thinking for helping  him unlearn much of the conventional thinking   on Wall Street the most valuable Insight he's  learned from taking a multi-disciplinary approach   to investing is that the stock market is to quote  him directly a complex adaptive system similar to   how Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon from  from many parts of our body and brain interacting   together so are the economy and financial markets  they're systems born out of millions of daily   interactions across the world according to the New (03:12) England complex systems Institute a   complex adaptive system is a system that changes  its behavior in response to its environment to   achieve a certain goal or objective and is usually  associated with plants animals or social groups   but as mentioned the term can also be used  to describe the financial system and economy   these systems are complex and diversified  contain both positive and negative feedback   loops are self-organized and can dynamically  adapt to and learn from the world around them   I'm just planting the seed now to think (03:45) of the stock market as a system   that's more than the sum of its parts and one  that dynamically responds to and evolves from   the world around it we'll touch on this later  in the episode so you can just keep this point   that the stock market is a complex adaptive  system in the back your head since it's so   critical to how mobison thinks about financial  markets but now let's dive into Moon's first   essay on investment philosophy investment  philosophy is important because it dictates   how you should make good decisions a sloppy (04:15) philosophy inevitably leads to poor   long-term results but even a good investment  philosophy will not help you unless you combine   it with discipline and patience a quality  investment philosophy is like a good diet   it only works if it is sensible over the  Long Haul and you stick with it that passage   is directly out of the book with the point  being that what ultimately matters is one's   decision-making process not short-term results  many investors get started with these sort of   half-baked philosophies on how they like to invest (04:47) they find some short-term success and   then constantly update that philosophy based on  random variations of their results so they end   up chasing insights with no North Star guiding  them a good investment process has to rest on   sound building blocks this reality often clashes  with incentives though because investment managers   usually earn fees based on the total assets they  manage their incentives are to grow their assets   as much as possible not necessarily to deliver  the best compounded investment returns a market  (05:20) beating track record helps with attracting  assets but Savvy marketing and Charisma can just   as easily induce investees into a fund when  constructing an investment philosophy moison   tells us to be like the house in a casino  with the odds of winning always tilted in   our favor over time but having the odds in  your favor doesn't mean you'll always win   and that's okay if someone hits a jackpot  and earns a million-dollar payout casinos   don't necessarily take this as evidence that their  business model isn't working right the occasional  (05:53) big pick out the occasional big payout  is the cost of doing business rather than using   short term outcomes as the determinant of success  such as whether the casino made or lost money on a   given day a better approach involves reflecting  on the decision-making process a gambler who   bet big and won when the expected value from the  odds offered wasn't in their favor isn't skilled   they're just lucky but that outcome is blinding if  someone is walking around with a million dollars   of Poker winnings how could you not think (06:25) they're skilled at least the winning   Gambler will probably think they are results  are tangible and easy to assess either you   won or you didn't yet if that Gambler continues  to make the same or similar bet over time luck   will fade away that is the difference between  outcomes and process the gambler's process is   flawed his strategy includes risky Bets with  negative expected values but temporary success   can mask a poor decision-making process the  casino is less bothered by short-term outcomes   and more worried about process that they (07:01) follow in that same vein making   50% trading Nvidia doesn't make you a good  investor if the process underlying that   decision was incomplete Or unsound the critical  mistake people often make is conflating good   outcomes with good processes rationalizing  that they wouldn't have made money if they   didn't do something right the complicating  factor I think is that good processes will   sometimes lead to bad outcomes and bad processes  to good outcomes but there's a reason many great   sports franchises live by the motto trust the (07:34) process teams that draft well build up   their rosters carefully and follow disciplined  decision-making rules position themselves best   for continued success over time whereas Others  May splurge on super teams of expensive star   players that either deliver them one-off  championships or wreck the franchise for   years before recovering in Stock Investing a  sound process is one that effectively identifies   discrepancies between a stock current price  and its expected value which is the weighted   value of a range of possible outcomes (08:06) for the company's future the game   then is not to bet on the horse with the best  chance of winning but to bet on the horse with   the best chance that's not properly reflected  in the odds being offered for it investing is   about dealing with uncertainty recognizing  that uncertainty and incorporating it into   your calculations of expected value for companies  think of expected value as putting a single number   value on a bet that's derived from multiplying  a range of outcomes by their payouts and odds of  (08:37) recurring and then adding them  together when the possible payoffs or   downsides are large enough the distribution  of outcomes becomes massively skewed just   look at options investing as an example 90% of  options expire worthless but that doesn't mean   that options aren't valuable stock options can  offer considerable payoffs from unlikely events   so so if the payoff is big enough the expected  value for even a low- likelihood event may still   be positive if magnitude outweighs frequency  in a portfolio of stocks one big winner with  (09:11) nine losers may still generate a positive  Total return the problem is that while this is   easy to understand conceptually it's incompatible  with human nature behavioral economists like   Daniel Conan and Amos starki showed decades  ago that the pain felt from investment losses   exceeds the Joy from gain means making most people  risk averse and less able to stick with volatile   positive expected value Investments to make the  point again on how magnitude impacts expected   value imagine a stock that has a 75% chance of (09:47) delivering on its earnings promises which   should move the stock about 1% higher but it's  price such that it could fall off 10% or more   if the company misses earnings the odds are  technically in your favor but the expected   value isn't the 25% chance of missing with a 10%  decline in the stock price more than offsets the   smaller payoff from the most likely outcome of  course no one ever spells out this information   for us when investing you can never know the odds  with 100% confidence but we still must act with  (10:20) even imperfect information in fact too  much information can introduce noise that may   worsen our decision-making as investors in a  study in a study on odds makers for horse races   participants were asked to determine the handicap  for horses with just five pieces of information   then do so again with 10 20 and 40 pieces  of information even though their confidence   increased significantly with more information  the odds makers were only marginally better   at making predictions with more information  when I what I take from that is even though we  (10:54) all crave more information to help with  our investing decisions there's a cutoff point   where information doesn't actually help with  the quality of our decisions but does create   an illusion of certainty and false confidence  that can lead us to invest more than we should   in an idea so how do top investors behave in  practice and a screen for Equity Fund managers   who beat the S&P 500 Benchmark over the decade  ending in 2005 a few points of commonality stood   out firstly these Market beating investors didn't (11:27) trade frequently their annual portfolio   turnover was just 35% compared to 89% for  all fund managers they also tended to be   much more concentrated with 35% of their  assets invested in their top 10 biggest   Holdings versus around 20% for the S&P 500 most  of these Market beating investors according to   moison subscribed to the Warren Buffett and Ben  Graham School of investing where they compared   stocks current prices to their assessment  of intrinsic value these commonalities are   not on their own what Define investment success (12:02) more likely they are symptoms of sound   investing processes an investor who looks for  discrepancies from intrinsic value or has low   portfolio turnover isn't guaranteed to beat the  market but it is evidence that they may have a   disciplined reasoned investment process which  would be an indicator of expected long-term   success lowquality investment processes usually  try to explain the world based on attributes   alone using labels like size value  and growth we call companies with   low price to earnings ratios value stocks or (12:39) companies with above average revenue   increases growth companies but nothing about  that provides any circumstantial or actionable   information there's no if then statement  if your sole decision-making criteria were   to enter into Investments when their PE ratio  was low you would do very poorly you'd spend a   lot of time owning companies that are cheap  for with no guarantee that will change with   a more circumstantial approach you might find a  catalyst that drives cheap stocks to become less   cheap for example you may realize that when (13:11) interest rates fall the PE ratios   for already cheap value stocks rise faster than  for other companies so rather than just blindly   owning value stocks due to an attribute based  Factor like relative cheapness you'd know to   do so when a certain Catalyst happens like  interest rates falling super investors like   Bill Miller who is one of the only investors  to ever beat the market in 15 consecutive   years tend to think circumstantially in  their decision-making processes according   to mobison despite considering himself a (13:40) value investor Miller has invested   in famous growth companies like Amazon in  their early days that's because he doesn't   adhere strictly to some arbitrary attribute  oriented definition of value based on price   to earnings or Price to Book he considers value  circumstantially sound processes reflect context   and without context you'll be lost in navigating  constantly changing markets too many investment   gurus lament what they think the market  should do rather than trying to understand   why markets are doing what they do in terms (14:10) of studying others investment   philosophies for insights there really is  something to be said for learning from the   best of the best at least from those with  the longest track records of beating the   market while the hot hand phenomenon has  been disproven in sports because most hot   streaks can be explained within the realm  of expected probabilities what gets Lost in   Translation is that the probabilities of going on  hot streaks vary for each player it isn't much of   a statistical outlier when a basketball player who (14:40) shoots 90% from the free throw line Hits   10 free throws in a row but it would be if a 50%  free throw shooter did we often conflate great   players going on shooting streaks in basketball or  hitting streaks in baseball as self-sustaining hot   streaks when in reality a player with a high  average shooting percentage will inevitably   have such streaks over the course of their  career due to simple statistical Randomness   the difference is that good Shooters can go  much longer before violating probabilistic   expectations so long streaks of having a (15:12) hot hand do communicate some   information they tell us that the player likely  has a very high average shooting percentage which   makes such a streak plausible the same is true  for investing with each additional year that   an investor beats the market over their career  the less likely it becomes that the explanation   is simply Randomness longer streaks of beating the  market are similar to a basketball player with a   higher shooting percentage underlying skills  make the hot Street more statistically likely   and less of an abnormality through that lens (15:42) it's clear that investors like Warren   Buffett and Bill Miller have beaten the  market for so long because they are actually   exceptionally talented now I want to move into  M's second essay from the book on the psychology   of investing as he puts it Understanding  Psychology provides a preview into the   of mistakes you're likely to make as an  investor we've already talked about the   importance of defining an investment philosophy  and decision-making process but this section   brings to life that by considering the (16:11) mental roadblocks that try to   derail us from that process rather than throwing  a bunch of Tex terms for psychological biases at   you the simplest way to start is with stress  we've all experienced the physical and mental   effects of extreme stress at one time or another  or at least seen how it can affect other others   stress makes us less patient more irritable  and can literally destroy our bodies over   time in contrast to how you've experienced stress  imagine the sorts of things that may cause stress   to a zebra a zebra's stress is acute a lion (16:45) might be chasing it and the zebra's   body kicks into action to release cortisol  and adrenaline to help it get away but the   list of events that cause stress to zebras on a  daily basis is quite slim especially compared to   the list of things that probably cause you stress  groceries chores kids pets work your Investments   the list goes on and on human stressors are  psychological and chronic yet our bodies are   suited primarily for managing acute stress  like the zebras meanwhile the physiological   responses to chronic stress and acute (17:20) stress are similar which throws   our bodies at a balance lack of predictability  and control is particularly stressful for us   and few disciplines have a more potent  combination of those two stress inducing   factors than money management and markets only  seem to be getting less predictable the average   time that a company spends in the S&P 500 Index  has shrunk by more than half in the last few   decades while the pace of technological  disruptions is brisk the only salvation   for relieving investor stress is to turn (17:53) to the long term in Moon's opinion   while stress pushes us to impulsively make  decisions to today that we hope will provide   a miracle fix a long enough time Horizon allows  us to better contextualize chronic stress deeply   understanding a business you plan to own for  over a decade should give you the confidence   to write out gations in the market price or  fearmongering news stories moison says that   if the source of investor stress is largely  psychological so too is the means to cope   with it commitment and consistency is another (18:28) one of those potent psychological factors   impacting investors once we've committed to  a decision our brains can sometimes almost   entirely turn off critical thought it's a  survival mechanism ingrained in us to avoid   wasting energy going back and forth on decisions  even worse is that once we've publicly committed   to a decision it's difficult to Pivot from  it inconsistency is not a desirable trait in   human social groups if you cannot count on  your neighbor to do as they promised Trust   collapses as a result there are good (19:02) evolutionary reasons for us to get locked   into our commitments and decisions nobody wants to  be perceived as being unreliable unfortunately for   investors this manifests by making it difficult  for us to justify changing our investment views   if you post on Twitter or tell a family member  about some company you're bullish about your   subconscious tethers you to that decision and  resist doing a 180 if the company's Outlook   changes dramatically for the worse but it's it's  hard to even recognize that the facts may have  (19:31) changed or that your original thinking  was wrong if you've started disregarding new   information after having made a commitment to  being bullish it's a relatable feeling I know   that after I've done dozens of hours of work  researching a company and made up my mind on   it by the end I'm ready to just be done thinking  about it for a little while I feel like I need   a break and if at the same time I've told  everyone about what a great company it is it   makes it even harder to be alert and cognizant of (19:59) continuously evaluating that investment   thesis objectively you Sly Tor you subtly tilt  toward only processing information that validates   your conclusion because it feels like too much  work to dive back into researching the company   again or because you worry about appearing  inconsistent after previously recommending   the stock another set of biases that really  resonates with me is liking and disliking   in general when we like or dislike something we  justify our opinions in one way or another when   it comes to investing if you really like a (20:33) company maybe because you admire its   management or its Vision or because you use its  products it's just a lot easier to dismiss the   risks and exaggerate the potential benefits  it's the same with disliking if you despise a   company's impact on society which is how a lot  of people feel about social media companies or   just find the company boring you'll probably be  more inclined to fixate on the bearish arguments   against owning the stock disliking a company can  blind you from the investment merits of being a  (21:04) shareholder in it however emotion is  fundamental to our decision-making process that's   Moon's takeaway at least after reviewing studies  on decision-making among that's Moon's takeaway at   least after reviewing studies on decision-making  among individuals who had suffered brain damage   primarily impacting the part of their brain  responsible for generating emotions emotions   triggered subconsciously Drive conscious decisions  and without emotion our decisions tend to just   be worse a subconscious emotional response to (21:39) seeing a snake Spurs fear which drives us   to be cautious and back away without any emotional  response you might respond to seeing a snake with   less caution and that could quite literally  come back to bite you emotions are critical   to how we make decisions but they also distort  our sense of objective probabilities if you see   random snake the odds are that it's probably not  poisonous and probably not interested in biting   you but your emotional response from anticipating  the worst case outcome of being bidden by a  (22:09) deadly snake is more than enough  to make you jump back in that case emotions   drive a response that's in your best interest  using Extreme Caution around wild snakes May   exaggerate the odds of being bidden but doing  so is still a good decision when it comes to   buying lottery tickets with the possibility of  life-changing payouts people tend to behave the   same whether the odds of winning are 10,000 to one  or 1 million to one because the potential outcome   is so emotionally exciting the emotional  response pushes them to ignore the odds  (22:44) and focus on the outcome it's a similar  problem when investing if your hopes are high   enough that an investment will make you rich  you'll be much more inclined to overlook the   risks the bottom line is that when investors find  an investment attractive they deem the risk low   enough and the rewards high enough irrespective of  the actual probabilities to drive their decision   when they dislike an idea the inverse is true  risk is perceived as high and reward is low if   stress consistency and commitment and liking (23:16) and disliking weren't enough to deal   with investors also must grapple with being  social creatures it's the whole nature versus   nurture debate we love to imitate others  it's the backbone of the fashion industry   and really any other business that relies  on fads people see others wearing a brand   and suddenly they want to wear that brand too  the surge in retail Stock Investing on Reddit   is a perfect illustration of this in my opinion of  how imitation can overlap with financial decisions   subreddits devoted to single stocks have millions (23:49) of members feeding off each other buying   a stock then becomes as much of an investment  decision as a social one receipts of your stock   purchases are like tickets into a club of people  all bonded by their investment decision in that   case and an entire discipline in investing  is devoted to imitation momentum investors   by Nature seek to profit by piling into what  the crowd is doing but imitation doesn't have   to be a dirty word it's quite helpful when  other investors know more about something   than you do to follow their lead the flip (24:23) side is that when imitation of an   investment becomes too popular it leads to  Bubbles the takeaway isn't that markets are   completely irrational because markets are made up  of people and people are irrational with enough   stock market participants there's enough  diversity that irrationalities can cancel   each other out someone who is experiencing a  bias in One Direction may be offset by someone   biased in the opposite direction therefore  markets mostly arrive in appropriate places   except when they're all irrational in (24:54) the same way at the same time   this is what panics are at the same same time  everyone is gripped strongly by fear which   creates a cascading effect selling drives more  Panic which drives more selling I remember this   vividly in March 2020 on March 16th the russle  3000 index of US Stocks fell more than 11% I had   no idea at the time what the future would hold  and how Co would change the world but it seemed   that fear was driving irrational responses  among huge chunks of investors all at once   and in hindsight which is a bias of its own (25:28) actually actually it was a great   opportunity to take advantage of how do you get  started with Stock Investing I've put together   a course to teach you everything I wish I knew  when I first started investing in stocks let's   start at the beginning and ask what is a stock  let's zoom on in into what it's actually like to   buy a stock a few options are Charles Schwab  TD amerit trade Ally E Trade fortunately you   won't have to necessarily calculate all of these  taxes yourself I'll outline a few main ones to  (25:59) be aware of throughout your lifetime  investing Journey as Warren Buffett says your   best investment is yourself there's nothing that  compares to it by the end you'll be savvier about   Stock Investing in personal finance than the  vast majority of people even if you're not a   total beginner I'm confident you'll get a lot out  of the principles and strategies I outline which   will build on throughout link to the course  is available in the description below see   you there is among huge chunks of investors (26:29) all at once and in hindsight which   is a bias of its own actually it was a great  opportunity to take advantage of identifying   irrationalities in markets is rarely so easy  though and even that example isn't as simple   as it seems given how markets have recovered  since my thinking about what happened in March   2020 has been skewed trying to time the  market based on its Collective psychology   quickly becomes a game of guessing what the  average investor thinks the average investor   is thinking and you cannot assess the quality of (27:02) your previous decision- making if your   recollection of it is clouded by hindsight biases  which is why moison encourages investors to keep   a log of their rationale for decisions at the  time they were made so that they can reflect on   them in the future with without the effects of  hindsight biases in a world with so many biases   what is there to be said of intuition and just  thinking with your gut actually more than you   might think at least according to moison studies  on in the moment decision makers dealing with  (27:33) crises like firefighters reveal that there  is no classical Theory involved in their decision-   making they do not sit around and weigh the pros  and cons of a given strategy instead they identify   the first satisfactory solution and go from there  implementing new Solutions along the way that   come to mind it's an approach based on satisficing  not maximizing there was no time to determine the   theoretically optimal way to put out a fire and  save everyone's lives you must spring into action   with your best Instinct the same is true in other (28:08) Dynamic fast-paced environments from Wall   Street trading floors to battlefields in  these situations effective decision makers   draw heavily on their ability to quickly see  a range of Alternatives and mentally simulate   different responses they're also quite Adept  at pattern matching Under Pressure experts can   quickly match the circumstances to known  patterns with Chess Masters for example   it's been found that the quality of their  moves doesn't deteriorate significantly   whether they have 130 seconds to make a (28:37) move or if they have just six   seconds in a moment they can scan the board and  make relatively good moves surveys of experts   who had poured hundreds of hours into earning  the chartered financial analyst designations   found that the most well-trained investors  relied on gut instinct in similar ways they   tended to think in terms of ranges of possible out  outcomes using mental imagery and creating stories   based on the available facts their decisions  like firefighters or Chess Masters are context   dependent and they're not held up by finding the (29:11) theoretically optimal investment   opportunity they look for satisfactory  opportunities incrementally otherwise   they'd be paralyzed by a never- ending search  for the perfect investment so there's some   tension between what we've discussed here today  sound decision- making Frameworks are needed   for investment success meanwhile some experts  may be so experienced or skilled that they can   make highquality decisions extremely rapidly I  actually don't think these two things are at odds   though the true expert is one who has mastered (29:42) their decision-making Frameworks can   adjust for the context and is then able  to filter out the noise to make quality   decisions that wraps up the second essay from  the book so let's move into Moon's third essay   on Innovation and competitive strategy  he Begins by going through the names of   the companies included in the original Dow Jones  index dating back to the late 19th century which   intended to track America's largest and most  valuable publicly traded companies in just over   a 100 years things have changed completely at (30:14) its debut the index included companies   like American cotton oil American Tobacco  Chicago gas distilling and cattle feeding   General Electric Tennessee coal and iron us  leather us rubber American sugar finding lack   lead Gas Light Company National lead company  and North American of these dozen Titans for   their era none remain and only one from their  names you can tell that the biggest companies   of the 1890s reflected the commodity oriented  economy in which they operated the world has   changed and so have the types of companies that (30:50) acrew the greatest Market valuations   this is just the reality of compound Innovation  over time the challenge is that while we all know   Innovation is inevitable and tomorrow's most  valuable companies will look quite different   than today's these changes are small and  incremental in practice a lot of investors   hold a cognitive dissonance where they know things  are changing but disregard change because they   can't see it in real time and therefore end  up holding on to yesterday's best companies   expecting them to just continue doing (31:21) well an interesting thought   experiment is to consider why are we're so  much wealthier today than when the Dow index   was first published the Earth's natural resources  haven't changed yet we live much more comfortably   than our great-grandparents could ever dream  despite having to spread those resources   across a much larger population 130 years ago  control of resources was the primary way to   generate wealth New Wealth has come from more  effectively rearranging the Earth's resources   2024's most valuable companies aren't those (31:55) that M silicon they're companies that   have found better and better uses of that natural  resource namely in computer chips and electronics   the companies of the original Dow competed  in a world defined by scarcity whoever held   the most of a finite asset like oil and gas  iron rubber sugar and so on were the winners   but software has allowed us to build wealth  with resources that are not scarce software   is just information a set of instructions that  can be used by anyone at a little cost when a   better way for doing something is to discovered (32:29) that can be communicated instantaneously   across the globe and can be quickly adopted  saving us time to find new tasks that we can   make more efficient in the 19th century most  workers were doing industrial or agricultural   work based on series of repetitive tasks and  just a handful of a company's employees might   have been concerned with more knowledge-based  work and designing better systems the opposite   is true now entire companies are devoted  to paying people to uncover and bring to   Market better ways of doing things things (32:58) driving more Innovation generally   speaking there's an overshoot of companies in  new Industries all competing for market share   America once had over 2,000 car companies and  over the last century that number was whittel   down to just four or five that are really  of much consequence an explosion of new   companies following a significant Innovation  is eventually pruned down which is also known   as the boom and bus process mobison says that  investors would be wise to look around at the   end of when these printing processes to see (33:30) who has survived you could do much   worse than having a portfolio of survivors  who endured in industry's transition from   infancy to maturity he identifies two key  inflection points in the s-curve for new   Industries where growth typically begins slowly  accelerates rapidly and then eventually slows   the first inflection point is when a new  industry goes from a slow to Rapid growth   and overlaps with when investors transition from  underestimating future growth to overestimating   by extrapolating The Accelerated growth (34:02) indefinitely the second inflection point   comes as investors get burned by their now overly  optimistic growth outlook for an industry as the   industry matures growth falls off and investors  quickly revise their expectations for the future   the best opportunities come from successfully  identifying an industry's winners at the first   inflection point while the most pain is felt at  the second inflection point because Innovation is   accelerating mobison believes that investors  stay will continue to see more and more of  (34:33) these s-curves than in the past as new  Industries rise and fall at faster Paces with   that comes more opportunities to find industry  winners early on at the first inflection point   as well as more risks of being punished for owning  these companies by that second inflection point to   quote him directly he says in a fast changing  world you're almost always better off betting   on the new guard than the old you may not know  which company will generate the excess returns   but you can be almost assured that the older (35:02) company will not in the book creative   destruction Richard Foster and Sarah Kaplan  show that new entrance generate higher total   returns to shareholders than their older  and more established competitors in a review   across 30 years of thousands of companies  that were in the top 80% of all stocks in   terms of market capitalization and had at least  50% of their sales in the defined industry most   of these excess returns came and then first  5 years while returns over the subsequent 15   years tended to be in line with industry (35:33) averages and then after 20 years   the same companies usually began to underperform  their peers that's because new entrance improve   upon the status quo until they eventually  become the incumbents and can no longer earn   returns beyond their cost of capital another  way to think of this is that the duration of   company's competitive Moes is much shorter  in the 21st century meaning many companies   competitive advantages don't last as long  as they they used to to quote Bill Gates   in 1998 he said I think the multiples of (36:03) technology stocks should be quite   a bit lower than stocks like Coke and Gillette  because we are subject to complete changes in   the rules I know very well that in the next 10  years if Microsoft is still a leader we will   have had to weather at least three crises saying  that Innovation is shortening the lifespans of   companies advantages is a big claim as evidence  Mobis sites how the average lifespan of 1,800 us   industrial companies assets including  R&D capitalized assets has fallen   from 14 years in 1975 to under 10 years (36:36) currently companies assets just   don't create value for as long as they used to and  today's companies must generate returns with their   Assets in less time than they did a generation ago  as an investor you might wonder whether you should   want your companies to think more shortterm in a  more Innovative world or if it's more important   than ever to think long-term and see the big  picture I I don't think there's a clear answer   other than to say there are trade-offs to both  and the right approach is context dependent it's  (37:05) like driving a car down the highway if you  only focus on looking at the hood you're going to   have trouble but you're also going to have issues  if you only stare off in the distance the right   mix of short and distant focuses changes with the  context the longterm is really just a collection   of short terms no company has ever had a great 5  years despite having 20 terrible straight quarters   to in invoke Charles Darwin quote it is not the  strongest of the species that survives nor the   most intelligent but the one most responsive (37:35) to change in a word what matters for   both organisms and companies in complex  systems is adaptability for organisms   it's about creating options through mutations  and naturally selecting for the best ones for   companies it's about generating value creating  opportunities and selecting the best ones to   drive the highest possible long-term returns  how he breaks down as happening is interesting   companies can take incremental short leaps  forward like process Improvement initiatives   or they can take large leaps that either (38:07) catapult them to the top of their   potential or wipe out their potential for earning  returns above their cost of capital large leaps   might include Acquisitions in new Industries or  developing new types of products based on the   competitive ecosystem surrounding a company  you can probably guess which types of leaps   they'll take in stable Industries there's  less enthusiasm for disrupting the status   quo so most sleeps are small and focused  on improving efficiency and fast changing   Industries like biotechnology large leaps are much (38:40) likelier because companies must make them   to survive any smaller advantages are likely  to be fleeting since the environment around   these companies is so Dynamic traditional  discounted cash flow valuations can work   quite well for stable companies that make small  leaps because the range of outcomes tends to be   narrower leaving less room for errors that can  compound when projecting five or 10 years out   on the other hand using discounted cash flow  models to value a biotech company sounds crazy   they're relying entirely on big leaps like drug (39:13) approvals and medical breakthroughs that   happen on unknowable timelines in a business  world that has more big leaps than in past   decades M claims that using past data as  the basis for evaluations is deeply flawed   since past valuations were set in a different  context of the economy the challenge is actually   similar to the problems that social security has  had Social Security was devised at a time when   a much smaller percentage of the population  lived into their 70s and 80s and legislators   assumed this would continue to be true (39:47) where there'd always be many   more workers paying into Social Security than  retirees pulling funds out of it in 1935 when   the Social Security Act was first signed America  had had 42 workers for every retiree thanks to   longer life expectancies today that ratio is  now 3 to1 the issue here is that the original   designers of Social Security extrapolated  past data forward expecting things to mostly   remain the same based on Actuarial tables their  plans to pay retirees at 65 seemed conservative   at the time and financially sound they (40:22) clearly didn't foresee how their   system would come under strain if the demographic  structure of society changed hugely investors   make the same mistake every day in the stock  market too they say things like based on 20   years of data the average price to earnings  ratio for this industry is 15 so because the   industry average is now 18 these stocks are  overpriced that thinking is just completely   wrong in moison view because pass ratios are only  relevant to the degree that they capture today's   circumstances in other words you're (40:53) referencing data that price   companies within a completely different context  there's actually no statistically significant   relationship between a company's PE ratio at  the beginning of a year and its subsequent 12   and 24mth returns according to research covering  the last 125 years of financial data to say it   more bluntly historical averages for investors  beloved PE ratios have almost zero predictive   power of results over typical investment time  Horizons in part that's because economic growth   inflation and tax rates are all in flux (41:28) yet each determines the valuation   that markets are willing to pay for different  Financial assets lower dividend tax rates for   example should lead investors to pay higher  multiples for stocks because they can earn   the same Returns on less income the PE ratios of  yesterday reflect different tax rates inflation   levels and at the index level different mixes  of companies from companies that relied more   heavily on machinery and tangible resources  to now more knowledge-based compan companies   relying on technology these all have different (42:01) implications on valuations which makes   Apples to Apples comparisons of valuation ratios  across time very difficult to do honestly another   element of this discussion that people Miss is  that stocks are priced based on their economic   returns and growth not just growth plenty of  companies have grown their way to bankruptcy   so an investment approach premised only on growth  is flawed embedded in such a focus on growth is   usually the belief that returns  will improve with scale which is   sometimes true but not inevitable wework (42:34) is a really popular illustration   of this where growth only compounded  the company's losses and Tesla is the   Counterpoint as a company that grew its way  out of losses so it's not just growth rates   that fluctuate returns tend to revert to the mean  over time because Industries earning profits at   above their cost of capital will attract more  investment and competition and returns there   will then drift downwards whereas Capital will  flee lower return Industries via bankruptcy   or disinvestment rewarding incumbents as (43:06) returns slowly drift back up with less   competition to show the point on mean reversion  credit s did an analysis of over 450 technology   companies from 1979 to 1996 ranking companies  in cor tiles based on their cash flow return on   investments or cfroi the top group of companies  earned an average of 15% at the start but those   above average returns declined to just 6% after  only 5 years and the worst group went from earning   negative 15% returns at the start to earning 0%  after 5 years as many of the worst performing  (43:45) companies went out of business on both  extremes convergence to the mean drives outliers   to earn more normal results but some companies  can still persistently earn exceptional returns   and seemingly defy the pool of mean reversion in  another study from 1960 to 1996 11% of companies   had an unblemished record of earning returns  above their cost of capital going back to our   discussion of PE ratios companies that can sustain  above average returns will correspondingly trade   at higher valuations if growth is strong too (44:20) valuations can go even higher before   becoming unjustified at the same time  expectations for these high performers are   are high because their high PE ratios reflect  the expectation that they can continue to earn   above average returns and continue to grow  the degree to which these expectations for   the future prove realistic will determine  in hindsight whether a company's stock was   cheap fairly priced or overpriced this leads into  the bigger discipline of expectations investing   which is an approach where investors try to (44:51) determine the future assumptions baked   into a company's stock today like whether the  company's growth will slow or accelerate whether   its returns will revert to the mean Etc and  determine if those expectations are realistic   from that perspective the companies in the top  quartile of returns aren't necessarily better   Investments than the companies in the bottom  quartile the best companies could have overly   optimistic valuations and the worst companies  could have overly pessimistic valuations to assess  (45:21) companies prospects compared to the  price in expectations we have Management's   projections for the future available to us while  most companies give guidance about the future the   usefulness of that guidance can vary significantly  the underlying bias is that management typically   wants to Rally employees around Grand Visions  for the future and put their best foot forward   to investors leading most of these projections to  be overly optimistic in the book profit from the   core Chris zook shows his research on over 1,800 (45:52) companies across five Industries with   three hurdles for them to beat at least 5.5%  real inflation adjusted sales growth 5.5% real   earnings growth and total shareholder returns  in excess of the cost of capital these hurdles   are actually pretty conservative compared to  these companies own projections where 2third   of the firms assumed double digit growth rates in  their future plans yet only 25% of companies hit   zook's more modest growth hurdles and only one  in8 companies ticked all three boxes the vast   majority of companies aim to grow (46:26) at double- digigit rates   and the vast majority do not that puts a pin on  the conversation about Innovation and growth for   now so let's move on to Moon's fourth and final  essay in the book and then we can try to recap   everything we learned today essay 4 on science  and complexity Theory begins with a discussion   of just how difficult it is to see the big  picture of a complex system an individual   looking out on the landscape of financial markets  is akin to a single ant trying to understand the   full workings of the ant colony around them (46:59) the level of complexity is well beyond   the ants capability for comprehension whether  in beehives or ant colonies social systems in   the natural world show that the collective  interactions of many individuals can solve   certain problems a single honeybee cannot produce  honey nor could they even identify the best place   to build a hive yet in aggregate colonies  of bees are excellent at doing both without   a central Authority tens of thousands of honey  bees can coordinate their actions in fact The   Hive can make more Intelligent Decisions than any (47:32) individual could mobison sees financial   markets as being similar you are the single  bee fulfilling your own narrow role in the   bigger picture and collectively the system is  working to efficiently price Financial assets   what's fascinating is how beehives have evolved  to do this forward your bees to a little dance   when they return to their hives to inform  others of where the food is and the duration   of those dances not not only communicates  the richness of the resource in question   but how potentially necessary it is for the (48:02) colony too so bees dances consider both   the hives opportunities and needs the result  is a decentralized process where hives make   the optimal resource allocation decisions  such as where to forage for food despite   no single B determining this from the top down  we also see this in prediction markets that tap   into Collective knowledge betting markets tied to  politics have an inviable record and in predicting   what percentage of the vote different candidates  will capture that is typically far more reliable   and predictive than any single experts track (48:35) record whether you agree with the Beehive   analogy or not and the power of collective  knowledge the message is really to say that   other domains of knowledge can teach us about the  financial world if you only read financial news   and listened to financial experts you'd probably  not land on considering the similarities between   beehives and financial markets as decentralized  complex systems but the natural world can teach   us a ton about investing because financial  markets are ultimately byproducts of human   interactions and humans are the result (49:04) of millions of years of evolution   and coexistence with the world around us for more  on what evolution and the natural world can teach   us about investing I'd recommend reading the book  what I learned about investing from Darwin by Pac   prad the other main focus for this essay is on how  fat tales as statistics experts might call them or   extreme events Drive systems that is the world  is not always defined by averages the effects of   extreme outliers can present chicken and egg  problems where novel extreme events like 911  (49:39) world wars asteroid impacts or pandemics  may seem unprecedented if only Looking Backward   especially if they've never happened before  haven't happened in a long time yet these   extreme events can flip everything upside down if  you've read Nim tb's book The Black Swan you'll be   familiar with the idea that infrequent but  extreme events occur more often than most   people expect and are what spur dramatic changes  to the status quo Moon's Insight is that markets   become more vulnerable to extreme events (50:08) when hurting takes place with most   investors reaching the same conclusion on a topic  Without A diversity of opinions the wisdom of   collective knowledge turns into the tyranny of  the masses extreme statistical outliers in black   swans are not just catastrophes though in markets  there might be thousand to one payoff stocks like   Google and Facebook that fundamentally changed  the world extreme outliers like these and markets   raise a paradox because the price upside for  stocks is theoretically infinite the problem is  (50:39) known as the St Petersburg Paradox and  the hypothetical goes like this imagine you're   offered the chance to pay to participate in  a coin flipping game where the payout doubles   each time you win the first payout is $2 and  then $4 and then $8 and so on with each flip   it's a paradox because the expected value is  infinite with each incremental flip there's a   50/50 chance of winning or losing and ending  the game while the payout keeps doubling and   the question becomes what fraction of your net  worth should you be willing to pay as a fee to  (51:12) play the game half the time the payoff  is just $2 and 75% of the time the payout is   $4 or less but with a streak of 30 in a row  the payout is $1.1 billion while the odds of   that happening are correspondingly one in 1.1  billion so if the expected value is infinite   then you should be willing to pay everything  you have to play yet in practice no one would   do that in studies people are usually willing to  bet around $20 to play for 200 years economists   and statisticians have struggled with the  Paradox and there's still no definitive  (51:48) solution it's a thought experiment that  takes probabilistic thinking for investors to   extremes where logic begins to break down if you  believe a company is truly the next Google then   there's almost no price that you could pay today  that wouldn't be justified by that optimism but   doing so isn't necessarily Justified and the  odds are stacked against you and finding the   next stock to create a massive amount of  wealth yet these extreme outlier returns   aren't one-off flukes either they actually seem (52:17) to be a fundamental part of financial   markets from 1980 through 2006 there were  nearly 2,000 companies that ipoed and only   5% % of those companies accounted for 100% of the  more than $2 trillion do in wealth that the entire   group created this reflects the Paradox in a  different way because investors must wrestle   with the reality that they can pay a small amount  today for new companies of which a handful will   generate massively skewed returns one last  concept worth digging into from this essay is   the clash between our brains desire to have a (52:54) clear cause and effect description of   the world around us and the fact that as a  complex adaptive system the stock market can   have emerging outcomes with no clear explanation  human consciousness may be the best depiction of   a complex adaptive system where the sum of  the parts is not the same as the parts in   unison if you were to break down each neuron  in your brain one by one you could not find   an explanation for Consciousness Consciousness  very much remains a mystery to scientists yet   we know it emerges from the complex interactions (53:26) between the different parts of our brains   and bodies it cannot be explained by summing  up the parts that go into it the stock market   is a complex adaptive system as well it is a  phenomenon born out of its parts but you cannot   break down each of its parts to understand  perfectly what has happened and will happen   in markets so complex adaptive systems do not  always have clear cause and effect explanations   as much as we want to rationalize why the  stock market went up or down 3% today there   is probably no specific explanation we can (53:57) point to with much confidence as   a real world illustration of this after the  Black Monday crash of 1987 the US government   tasked a commission with determining what had  caused the crisis you'd think a more than 20%   single day crash in stock market indexes would  have a clear explanation but it didn't people   throw around a handful of explanations but  after months of work the commission itself   concluded that the causes were indeterminable M  argues that this is unsurprising because complex   adaptive systems do not owe us proportional or (54:30) logical explanations when building a   sand castle a single grain of sand can trigger  a collapse of the entire structure but good   luck trying to pinpoint which additional grain of  sand it was that spurred that collapse trying to   explain moves in the stock market is the same it's  like pinpointing which grain of sand triggered the   collapse the answer is unknowable even though most  of us find that discomforting and frustrating and   will cling to the first plausible explanation that  we come across we touched on a lot of different  (55:03) topics today as we went through  mobison essays on investment philosophy   psychology Innovation and competitive strategy  and complexity theory in markets to really soak   everything up it's a good episode to listen to  twice or you could just pick up more than you   know to read for yourself the book grew on  me the more I read it and by the end I had   a tremendous amount of respect for mobison as  an original thinker and for his ability to draw   insights from so many different areas to help  better understand financial markets it's a book  (55:34) that raises as many questions as it  answers The more I've learned about investing   The more I've realized how much I don't know from  the boundaries of what we understand about human   nature and psychology to the St Petersburg  Paradox and complex adaptive systems moison   expands on a lot of ideas that will get your  brain going in new ways I'll leave you with a   quote from moison reflecting on the book he says  this book celebrates the idea that the answers   to many of these questions will emerge only (56:04) by thinking across disciplines when   it comes to investing across a lifetime what  really matters is not getting wiped out and   you need a good bit of skepticism about any  decision you make to avoid betting it all on   something really exciting but also really risky  I can imagine how many bullets Charlie probably   helped Warren Dodge up until his death last  year he was still bringing his signature skep   ISM to all of today's most popular buzzwords  from crypto to Ai and and meme stocks