Dr. Adam Trexler: Physical Gold Market in Crisis, Buyers Priced Out
Summary
De-dollarization: Guest argues the global system is fragmenting away from the dollar as the primary reserve denominator, driving a structural bid for gold.
Gold Bull Market: Despite volatility and pullbacks, the long-term thesis is higher gold prices as investors seek counterparty-risk-free monetary assets.
Physical Market Strains: Coins and jewelry are increasingly unaffordable, creating a crisis in physical gold with dealers buying under spot and highlighting the need for small, spendable units.
East vs. West Demand: Western retail is selling coins while Eastern markets (notably China) face acute shortages with few sellers and strong buying across retail and institutions.
Silver Dislocation: Refiners are backlogged and hedging costs are elevated, leading to discounts below spot and a buyer’s market for long-term holders.
Central Bank Buying: Continued accumulation by central banks and major investors is a key underpinning for sustained gold demand.
Adoption and Liquidity: Growth in spendable gold via Valorum-enabled products, Goldback’s merchant network, and Texas Bullion Depository issuance aims to improve liquidity and tighten spreads.
Investor Takeaways: Preference for physical ownership, focus on spreads over headline premiums, and a multi-year horizon amid geopolitical uncertainty.
Transcript
I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Dr. Adam Traxler, president and founder of Valorum. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. >> Awesome to be here, Charlotte. >> Really good to be speaking with you. I think it's going to be a fun conversation. I thought since it's our first time speaking if you wouldn't mind giving a brief introduction to yourself, your background in the space and how you came to create Valorum. >> Sure thing. Um I uh have been a lifelong student of money. Uh my uh academic PhD was about uh how different people understood money in the early 20th century as the gold standard fell apart. Um, and then I learned about a novel technology that I thought would change the entire history of money. Um, and that was the seeds of Orum in 2012. Um, essentially what we do is we make small increments of gold um, accessible, secure, spendable. And um, it was a very hard uh, research project the first seven years or so. We I would say we really launched in 2019 and have been having exponential growth ever since. So, um, you know, I it's been really gratifying and a little bit spooky, uh, the last couple months or so to have major mints, major central banks coming up to us and saying, you know, how does it feel to have your thesis proved and, uh, vindicated? Um, but also uh, we're in we're in very interesting times. Well, I think it's always good to hear how people came to this sector and we will talk more about the company, but before we do, I think it is a good plan to talk about these interesting times we're in for gold especially. >> It's kind of a wild couple of weeks. We saw the price get past 5500 per ounce, then stage a correction. Now, it looks like we're moving back up higher again. So when you look at the gold market right now, what are the key drivers you think are moving the price? >> Really interesting. And I think that there's a misperception of the fundamental drivers here in the American market. you know for the last 20 years uh American retail investors have been talk have talked mostly about um you know dollar debt and I think that is a driver and I think risk geopolitical risk is a driver um I think gold is has a much more important role than just as a hedge against inflation though and what's actually happening in my opinion is that we are seeing the dissolution of go of the dollar, not in terms of the price of the dollar and not in terms of the American public, but maybe something more important and more fundamental, which is the dollar as the fundamental denominator by which all currencies are measured. uh there is a breakup of nations in terms of the global economy and this is a onedirection process that is only just beginning where countries are going to become more autonomous and there's not going to be a central organization around the dollar. We could have a strong or weak dollar in that regime, but the global economy is not going to depend on the dollar as the ultimate store of value in the way that it has for the last 50 years. That breakup is bringing gold roaring back and it's just the beginning. >> I was going to ask, so we're just at the beginning of this process. How how do you see it playing out? Can you expand on that? cuz I think that's probably central to what people are wondering when they they hear about this process. >> Yeah. From my point of view, this has been going on for 10 years, which is relatively short in terms of, you know, geopolitical regimes and people need to have that context. I remember uh running Orum and there was 10 uh you know, $1,50 gold. Today, even with a pullback to 4,200, if we keep going, we're at 4x. And you need to look at the long road and the hockey stick that is going on. And you know, we were laughing at people being scared at, you know, 5500 down to 5,000 or 48 where we are today. We could go to 4,000 and I'm not even scared about the thesis. The thesis is uh geopolitical investors must own gold because they must have a monetary type asset um that doesn't have counterparty risk because counterparty risks are stacking up and growing. While while different nations are becoming more and more unpredictable and traditional interdependence uh between nations is changing in very quick ways that nobody can fully predict. Um that's just going to happen. What we see then is frothy speculation over the course of weeks or months that pushes it a little bit too far and then has a bit of a, you know, bit too much of a correction and that's creating all the volatility. But the fundamental march is from major investors, central banks, and then a global investing public, not just the American investing public, a global investing public that knows they need to own gold uh to hedge their own futures. That is the world's economy and gold can only glow up from here. But there are some fundamental misalignments of that economy that must be fixed and that's going to take some time too. And so we'll see pullbacks. >> Yeah, I think of course we will see pullbacks. It's really good to have that context for everybody who might feel a little bit worried when they see that happen. >> I want to talk a little bit more about who is buying gold right now. So we know that the central banks around the world have been underpinning demand for years at this point. What about I want I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about regular people who are maybe seeing what's going on in the world. They're looking at picking up gold. I know the east is typically a large fire of gold. What about the west? What are we seeing over here? Are people now waking up to what's going on in the world? >> They definitely are, but there's a very different mentality between east and west. And I just was at a a conference last week and meeting meeting behind closed doors in our meeting room with central banks uh with na major national mints and with huge distributors across North America, Europe and Asia. There's a there's a breakdown of perception though in the US and and possibly North America. Generally a lot of retail investors are gold speculators and the retail investor in the US tends to feel pretty good about the direction of the economy um and tends to um not be focused on this dollar dissolution and they're they're kind of rolling their eyes a little bit about this classic like oh the America's going to default on its debt because they've been hearing it for 20 years although they might be concerned. Um and so what you're seeing is a profound turnover, the biggest turnover we've ever seen in our lifetimes of physical gold. So um the gold dealers are making an absolute fortune. And what they're doing is they're matching buyers and sellers. People who bought gold over the last 10 years in North America in the form of coins and bars are selling at a record rate and they're having to uh get prices well under spot price and then just as quickly dealers are able to turn around and sell that gold. Um, that's a very weird market for what we're seeing and it's largely because a lot of people thought about gold as a speculative investment. Um, and they feel pretty good about the world. However, big bold marks here. The global gold physical supply market does not feel this way at all. And I had a conversation with one of the biggest dealers in uh the Chinese and Hong Kong market say there are no sellers. We can't get enough gold. We can't get enough silver. It's our biggest problem. China is buying much more gold. The China retail investor is buying much more gold. We see that you know across the world a you know people are holders not sellers. And um you know a lot of gold is flowing east um in the form of you know huge movements through banks um and retail investors are taking down demand any way they can and they're struggling to do it because the price of gold is so high but they want and need physical and it is a replacement for their own banks currencies as well as US physical dollars and that is inexurable and I think if the American public understood that trend they wouldn't be so selling because I'm a gold owner. I'm not selling not in this condition because I don't know whether it's going to be a month, a year or 3 years. It's going way higher and I see it as inevitable. >> When you are looking at what the price could do, do you have do you have a number in mind or is that something that we can't know at this point? Um, it it would be spooky, but I want to put a bit more context um to that. 5 years ago, if you said you were going to see $5,000 gold, and I'm sure you interviewed some people who did, you would see comments that this these people were insane. They were uh plugging it, you know, and they were ridiculous. There's no natural limit to the value of gold at $5,000, $10,000 or $20,000 as the re as the investment community pivots to hold essentially its cash in this form. The biggest slowdown in gold though is not the investment community. It is a crisis in physical ownership because jewelry and coins are no longer affordable to most of the world's public. And that is a major major driver of worldwide gold demand. Historically jewelry 2:1 to coins and bars. And no one can afford jewelry anymore. And what I saw at this show for companies that are distributing across Europe, across America, across Asia, is they are in crisis because they know that they there is a public that is desperate to own gold and silver. And none of the price points work anymore for traditional coins and bars. And the best way to own gold, in my opinion, for a long-term hold is physical. That's where you get the real benefits of gold if you're not speculating. and they don't know how to deliver that. And so we have, you know, a head of a we I had central bankers coming up to me and saying, I own your product and we want to work with you. I had uh the head of a 700 person gold distribution company across uh you know all of Europe. Um you know typically we you know we would do 5% of their stuff because coins worked in the market. uh they said, you know, you are our strategic option because you can deliver small amounts of gold. And now they're flying to Portland for the first time ever after working with them for 5 years. There's a crisis in the physical gold market. The market needs to figure out how to do that. And as that happens, watch out because, you know, 70 80% of the people that have been priced out are going to crowd back in. and in aggregate it's billions of investors making small purchases um and redistributing gold and I don't know where it stops. >> So we have all these these issues in the physical gold mark market. We're seeing things breaking there. What about silver? You know we've had all this very interesting gold price activity. Same can be said for silver. So are you seeing similar trends apply there? >> It's actually stronger in silver. And what's happening is there's so much silver cramming into the American market, physical silver, that refiners are backed up for months or a year. And the result of that is nobody can take silver. What's what's happening is that people who would typically be the buyers, the volatility is such that they can't get capital to buy silver even well under spot price and then be able to hedge it because hedging costs have gone absolutely out of control. So you have a huge amount of silver that can only go through so much refinement. there aren't enough buyers and it's very difficult to then sell your silver and that's where you start to see you know 5% 6% 9% under spot for silver um for you know a retail customer trying to get get rid of some that is disorderly market and um you know ultimately I think people are right to own physical silver but I think there it's a buyer market for silver right now um as long as you like the long-term fundamentals. The opportunity to buy silver coinage is really interesting and I would I you know I own a little bit of silver coin. Uh I just think it's a really interesting market if you're a long-term holder. >> Do you do you see those dynamics resolving? Because I've been reading about that anecdotally online where people go they want to sell their silver especially last week when the prices were really high and they were struggling to find a buyer. So when does that resolve or or how does it >> it's going to take a while to clean out and the reason is because you know there's two things that would take it out. One is we you know the refiners who only have so much capacity and have to maintain that capacity through high and low markets. They need to work off this huge backlog of just physically refining that silver melting it down making bars that are suitable for the uh digital markets and can be recast. Um the other thing is is if we see a a major pullback in silver um you know the speculators or you know people who are really excited to sell silver won't know what to do and we saw that you know I was um with a close friend um [clears throat] taking calls from this meeting and he had an investor who'd had three a $3 million coin silver stockpile and on Monday he was like okay I think I want to sell uh my friend made a match for him with uh two um European buyers And the guy waited. He said, "I just want to think about it for a day." And $20 fell off silver. And then he really didn't know what to do. And uh you know, I still don't think he sold his silver. So it's it's a very confusing market for um the average silver investor. And that disorderliness points to the fact that there needs to be new solutions. >> Well, and let's talk a little bit more about how your product works. So, it's all about democratizing gold for people and with the price at such high levels right now, breaking it into these smaller denominations that are more accessible, more usable. So, what would you add? How you how would you explain it to people who might not know? >> Yeah. So, you know, we're making a physical product, which is kind of interesting. I mean, here's an example of a 1 g gold product. Um, that's about $150 melt value of gold today. Um, what's happening is that people have tried to uh make coins smaller and smaller to the point where you can barely hold them. We have a totally different nanotech process that comes from how you make microchips where we're depositing gold atom by atom into a thin film where you can literally see the gold and you can have as much as $4 of gold in your pocket. Um, in addition to that, we have numerous patents where we're able to incorporate the same protections that are found on physical paper money like the US dollar in the euro. And what that allows people to do is first of all, once again, afford gold where at $5,000 [clears throat] an ounce plus a premium, there just aren't many people who can sock that away every paycheck. And so it's breaking the physical gold market which is in turn dragging on the gold price. But more importantly there's a crisis in the physical gold market which is that we are seeing gold coin overs supplied and people are having to sell it back at under spot price which is just bananas. That's the sign of a broken disorderly market. And we heard uh you know I talked to one dealer who said we just bought a million dollars worth of scrap silver or you know old US mintage uh silver for 9% under spot because we don't know how to melt it. So if you have cash you can buy up silver and gold below the market price. That's because coins don't work anymore. It's not a valuable form in an orderly market. premiums would be above the spot price which look the premium is is just an expression of what does it cost or what's the market value above a 100 ounce bar which is now about a million5 no more. So you know we're going to see um smaller pieces attract premium um but the the physical market needs to resort itself out and we think we're going to be the biggest player in that space. It definitely sounds like it's getting chaotic there in terms of the market for the coins. So, with with an ORM, where can somebody go out and use this? How does that work? Can you break that down? >> Absolutely. So, um we sell through the biggest uh you know, gold distributors and and hundreds of gold shops all across the country. We're biggest in North America right now. We actually make more pieces of gold than the US Mint. So um we we only really work with distributors. Um one of them is Goldback. They have created a a spendability network that has thousands of businesses where you can sell your gold. That gives a more liquid market than any single uh gold dealer. Arguably that's not our claim. That's their claim. Um we also work uh with governments and make um gold for central banks in the same way that the US Mint mints coins. um or the Royal Canadian Mancements coins, for example. Um the other thing is that that's just happening in the last few weeks is that the state of Texas is beginning to issue precious metals in the form of gold and silver. And so um actually the state of te Texas through the Texas Bullion Depository is beginning to issue gold bills in our form. And we believe that's a historic development as well. Um, if you want to have spendable gold, um, I think you should look at gold backs. Um, but whether it's Texas, whether it's, um, Tanzania, whether it's, um, goldbacks, or whether it's a bullion product, the Aura mark is underpinning all of that. And, um, we're really proud to be offering those alternatives to consumers. >> Yeah, that's that's very interesting. And it sounds like you are making strides there in terms of adoption. One thing I've been thinking as as you've been talking is many people they like gold as a store of wealth, something that they can save and this is more about you know you can take your gold out into the world and actually use it. So how how do those how do you hold both of those mindsets in in your head? So ultimately, in my opinion, gold is a phenomenal form of of value storage and value preservation. I don't think you should suddenly turn all of your life over to trying to spend gold the best you can. The point is is how do we create an orderly market with incredible liquidity for gold? And the answers to that are you have very very reputable issuers like say Texas on the one hand and how do you have the deepest market for your products and arguably with that many uh places to spend gold. ORM products have more uh places to to sell your gold essentially for goods or services than any other precious metal product or in the country. And you know what we really need to get to is people to be confident that they can buy gold, spend gold, and uh be in that entire value chain. That's breaking for coins for for deep reasons where we've just been talking about and we could talk about it forever. But fundamentally, you need, you know, you need a form of gold that you can trust, that you can know is secure, and that you can pass on. And we're trying to build a new market that's based on that. >> Okay. So, they they're existing essentially. They're coexisting is is how this can work. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wondered also, so we've been talking about these issues in the coin market with premiums. Can you talk about how how premiums work with your product as well, just so we have that context? >> Absolutely. So, just to as a refresher, the spot price of gold is based on physical delivery of uh a very heavy, very valuable borrow depending on where you're whether you're dealing with the London or Comx markets. Um, anything above that that you pay is called the premium. This is basically so that um in addition to the raw materials you can get delivered gold in that form. Now obviously um going from 100 ounces to a 1/ 1,000th of an ounce bill is expensive and involves nanotechnology. So there's premiums associated with it. Um and you know some of the market has been trained oh get your premium as low as possible. We don't say that. We say get your spread as low as possible. And when you have a disorderly market, what you're seeing is sure premiums are 3% over spot right now, 2% in some cases for gold coins at an ounce, but you may have to sell them back at 6% under. So, you know, what we're looking to do over the next 5 years is create a more orderly market where the replacement value of that bill or coin is above spot as it should be, but also the spread is very tight. We're in the very early stages of that, Charlotte. Um, but that's where I think the market needs to go and we have the technology to bring that. >> Okay. So, little bit of a a mindset shift there in terms of how people can think about it. >> I wonder >> going going back to trends that you're seeing in the market, this event that you were just attending, it sounds like it brought together a lot of key players. Anything else you would pull out that maybe people in the gold market aren't aware of and and should be? >> Oh, um, so many things. I think that, you know, we we tend to be very focused on what the dollar is doing. And part of that is because the dollar the gold is denominated in the dollar and priced in the dollar, but also just because of our our perception. But I think that there's a tendency to think that all of the gold investments that your viewers are interested in um whether it's, you know, resource stocks, um physical gold, ETFs of gold, we tend to think about it just on terms of what's going on in the US market. But what I would really counsel people to think about is what do you think the global sentiment is of developments that we're having and um we can do things that are very good for the US economy but also create uncertainty and disruption across the globe. Those things are what are going to drive gold. And if you suddenly see a Breton Woods part two where suddenly everybody is uh going to revalue all of their currencies in terms of the dollar um and all the central bankers are lining up to sign up for that, you know, sell your gold. Uh um but I don't think that world's coming. I think that um the things that have been set in place and the trends across multiple administrations, different political stripes, I think it's only accelerating. And um you know for better or worse I am I'm a big believer in America. I'm a big believer in American ingenuity and I think the world perception is they need independent stores of value with no counterparty risk. That value proposition of gold is here to stay. >> I think the global perspective is so important to remember. It can be really easy especially here in North America to keep that perspective. But great point and I wonder just before I let you go, anything you would share about plans for Valorum moving forward into 2026 or beyond? What what are your goals? What what are you hoping to accomplish? >> Yeah, we um are working with issuing authorities by which I mean central banks, ministries of finance. Um we will be doing some phenomenal products that I absolutely can't discuss right now. Um, but expect this to become much more ubiquitous globally. Um, you know, we think that the plans that our existing partners have are absolute home runs and are going to reach 10x the people that they are. Um, you know, between what Goldback's doing, what Texas doing, I couldn't be more excited and the public just needs what we're doing and I I've never been uh more bullish on the space. Um, but I think that we need to think I don't I don't look at we're a privately held company. We're uh uh a mint that holds the keys to the future uh as far as the gold space. We're not looking at quarterly results and we don't need to because we're not public. We're looking at three, five, 10 years. And how do we reimagine a world where gold is ubiquitous in the pockets of a couple billion people that is going to happen? Um, not just because of Orum, but because of macroeconomic trends, they're irreversible. And um you know I think for your for your listeners find ways whether it's you know uh resource stocks uh you know own physical own physical and um you know follow follow our story because I think it's one of the great stories of um monetary history and we're just at the beginning of it. >> Well thank you so much. We we have a lot to look out for in that case and I would definitely encourage everyone to go look at the ORM. One thing you didn't mention, they are beautiful. I I can imagine people who have them, they they might have trouble spending them just for that reason. So, we'll we'll have a link in the video description, but definitely encourage everyone to to check them out. And thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you. Okay. >> Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investing.com and this is Adam Trexer with the Laurum. >> Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below.
Dr. Adam Trexler: Physical Gold Market in Crisis, Buyers Priced Out
Summary
Transcript
I'm Charlotte Mloud with investingnews.com and here today with me is Dr. Adam Traxler, president and founder of Valorum. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. >> Awesome to be here, Charlotte. >> Really good to be speaking with you. I think it's going to be a fun conversation. I thought since it's our first time speaking if you wouldn't mind giving a brief introduction to yourself, your background in the space and how you came to create Valorum. >> Sure thing. Um I uh have been a lifelong student of money. Uh my uh academic PhD was about uh how different people understood money in the early 20th century as the gold standard fell apart. Um, and then I learned about a novel technology that I thought would change the entire history of money. Um, and that was the seeds of Orum in 2012. Um, essentially what we do is we make small increments of gold um, accessible, secure, spendable. And um, it was a very hard uh, research project the first seven years or so. We I would say we really launched in 2019 and have been having exponential growth ever since. So, um, you know, I it's been really gratifying and a little bit spooky, uh, the last couple months or so to have major mints, major central banks coming up to us and saying, you know, how does it feel to have your thesis proved and, uh, vindicated? Um, but also uh, we're in we're in very interesting times. Well, I think it's always good to hear how people came to this sector and we will talk more about the company, but before we do, I think it is a good plan to talk about these interesting times we're in for gold especially. >> It's kind of a wild couple of weeks. We saw the price get past 5500 per ounce, then stage a correction. Now, it looks like we're moving back up higher again. So when you look at the gold market right now, what are the key drivers you think are moving the price? >> Really interesting. And I think that there's a misperception of the fundamental drivers here in the American market. you know for the last 20 years uh American retail investors have been talk have talked mostly about um you know dollar debt and I think that is a driver and I think risk geopolitical risk is a driver um I think gold is has a much more important role than just as a hedge against inflation though and what's actually happening in my opinion is that we are seeing the dissolution of go of the dollar, not in terms of the price of the dollar and not in terms of the American public, but maybe something more important and more fundamental, which is the dollar as the fundamental denominator by which all currencies are measured. uh there is a breakup of nations in terms of the global economy and this is a onedirection process that is only just beginning where countries are going to become more autonomous and there's not going to be a central organization around the dollar. We could have a strong or weak dollar in that regime, but the global economy is not going to depend on the dollar as the ultimate store of value in the way that it has for the last 50 years. That breakup is bringing gold roaring back and it's just the beginning. >> I was going to ask, so we're just at the beginning of this process. How how do you see it playing out? Can you expand on that? cuz I think that's probably central to what people are wondering when they they hear about this process. >> Yeah. From my point of view, this has been going on for 10 years, which is relatively short in terms of, you know, geopolitical regimes and people need to have that context. I remember uh running Orum and there was 10 uh you know, $1,50 gold. Today, even with a pullback to 4,200, if we keep going, we're at 4x. And you need to look at the long road and the hockey stick that is going on. And you know, we were laughing at people being scared at, you know, 5500 down to 5,000 or 48 where we are today. We could go to 4,000 and I'm not even scared about the thesis. The thesis is uh geopolitical investors must own gold because they must have a monetary type asset um that doesn't have counterparty risk because counterparty risks are stacking up and growing. While while different nations are becoming more and more unpredictable and traditional interdependence uh between nations is changing in very quick ways that nobody can fully predict. Um that's just going to happen. What we see then is frothy speculation over the course of weeks or months that pushes it a little bit too far and then has a bit of a, you know, bit too much of a correction and that's creating all the volatility. But the fundamental march is from major investors, central banks, and then a global investing public, not just the American investing public, a global investing public that knows they need to own gold uh to hedge their own futures. That is the world's economy and gold can only glow up from here. But there are some fundamental misalignments of that economy that must be fixed and that's going to take some time too. And so we'll see pullbacks. >> Yeah, I think of course we will see pullbacks. It's really good to have that context for everybody who might feel a little bit worried when they see that happen. >> I want to talk a little bit more about who is buying gold right now. So we know that the central banks around the world have been underpinning demand for years at this point. What about I want I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about regular people who are maybe seeing what's going on in the world. They're looking at picking up gold. I know the east is typically a large fire of gold. What about the west? What are we seeing over here? Are people now waking up to what's going on in the world? >> They definitely are, but there's a very different mentality between east and west. And I just was at a a conference last week and meeting meeting behind closed doors in our meeting room with central banks uh with na major national mints and with huge distributors across North America, Europe and Asia. There's a there's a breakdown of perception though in the US and and possibly North America. Generally a lot of retail investors are gold speculators and the retail investor in the US tends to feel pretty good about the direction of the economy um and tends to um not be focused on this dollar dissolution and they're they're kind of rolling their eyes a little bit about this classic like oh the America's going to default on its debt because they've been hearing it for 20 years although they might be concerned. Um and so what you're seeing is a profound turnover, the biggest turnover we've ever seen in our lifetimes of physical gold. So um the gold dealers are making an absolute fortune. And what they're doing is they're matching buyers and sellers. People who bought gold over the last 10 years in North America in the form of coins and bars are selling at a record rate and they're having to uh get prices well under spot price and then just as quickly dealers are able to turn around and sell that gold. Um, that's a very weird market for what we're seeing and it's largely because a lot of people thought about gold as a speculative investment. Um, and they feel pretty good about the world. However, big bold marks here. The global gold physical supply market does not feel this way at all. And I had a conversation with one of the biggest dealers in uh the Chinese and Hong Kong market say there are no sellers. We can't get enough gold. We can't get enough silver. It's our biggest problem. China is buying much more gold. The China retail investor is buying much more gold. We see that you know across the world a you know people are holders not sellers. And um you know a lot of gold is flowing east um in the form of you know huge movements through banks um and retail investors are taking down demand any way they can and they're struggling to do it because the price of gold is so high but they want and need physical and it is a replacement for their own banks currencies as well as US physical dollars and that is inexurable and I think if the American public understood that trend they wouldn't be so selling because I'm a gold owner. I'm not selling not in this condition because I don't know whether it's going to be a month, a year or 3 years. It's going way higher and I see it as inevitable. >> When you are looking at what the price could do, do you have do you have a number in mind or is that something that we can't know at this point? Um, it it would be spooky, but I want to put a bit more context um to that. 5 years ago, if you said you were going to see $5,000 gold, and I'm sure you interviewed some people who did, you would see comments that this these people were insane. They were uh plugging it, you know, and they were ridiculous. There's no natural limit to the value of gold at $5,000, $10,000 or $20,000 as the re as the investment community pivots to hold essentially its cash in this form. The biggest slowdown in gold though is not the investment community. It is a crisis in physical ownership because jewelry and coins are no longer affordable to most of the world's public. And that is a major major driver of worldwide gold demand. Historically jewelry 2:1 to coins and bars. And no one can afford jewelry anymore. And what I saw at this show for companies that are distributing across Europe, across America, across Asia, is they are in crisis because they know that they there is a public that is desperate to own gold and silver. And none of the price points work anymore for traditional coins and bars. And the best way to own gold, in my opinion, for a long-term hold is physical. That's where you get the real benefits of gold if you're not speculating. and they don't know how to deliver that. And so we have, you know, a head of a we I had central bankers coming up to me and saying, I own your product and we want to work with you. I had uh the head of a 700 person gold distribution company across uh you know all of Europe. Um you know typically we you know we would do 5% of their stuff because coins worked in the market. uh they said, you know, you are our strategic option because you can deliver small amounts of gold. And now they're flying to Portland for the first time ever after working with them for 5 years. There's a crisis in the physical gold market. The market needs to figure out how to do that. And as that happens, watch out because, you know, 70 80% of the people that have been priced out are going to crowd back in. and in aggregate it's billions of investors making small purchases um and redistributing gold and I don't know where it stops. >> So we have all these these issues in the physical gold mark market. We're seeing things breaking there. What about silver? You know we've had all this very interesting gold price activity. Same can be said for silver. So are you seeing similar trends apply there? >> It's actually stronger in silver. And what's happening is there's so much silver cramming into the American market, physical silver, that refiners are backed up for months or a year. And the result of that is nobody can take silver. What's what's happening is that people who would typically be the buyers, the volatility is such that they can't get capital to buy silver even well under spot price and then be able to hedge it because hedging costs have gone absolutely out of control. So you have a huge amount of silver that can only go through so much refinement. there aren't enough buyers and it's very difficult to then sell your silver and that's where you start to see you know 5% 6% 9% under spot for silver um for you know a retail customer trying to get get rid of some that is disorderly market and um you know ultimately I think people are right to own physical silver but I think there it's a buyer market for silver right now um as long as you like the long-term fundamentals. The opportunity to buy silver coinage is really interesting and I would I you know I own a little bit of silver coin. Uh I just think it's a really interesting market if you're a long-term holder. >> Do you do you see those dynamics resolving? Because I've been reading about that anecdotally online where people go they want to sell their silver especially last week when the prices were really high and they were struggling to find a buyer. So when does that resolve or or how does it >> it's going to take a while to clean out and the reason is because you know there's two things that would take it out. One is we you know the refiners who only have so much capacity and have to maintain that capacity through high and low markets. They need to work off this huge backlog of just physically refining that silver melting it down making bars that are suitable for the uh digital markets and can be recast. Um the other thing is is if we see a a major pullback in silver um you know the speculators or you know people who are really excited to sell silver won't know what to do and we saw that you know I was um with a close friend um [clears throat] taking calls from this meeting and he had an investor who'd had three a $3 million coin silver stockpile and on Monday he was like okay I think I want to sell uh my friend made a match for him with uh two um European buyers And the guy waited. He said, "I just want to think about it for a day." And $20 fell off silver. And then he really didn't know what to do. And uh you know, I still don't think he sold his silver. So it's it's a very confusing market for um the average silver investor. And that disorderliness points to the fact that there needs to be new solutions. >> Well, and let's talk a little bit more about how your product works. So, it's all about democratizing gold for people and with the price at such high levels right now, breaking it into these smaller denominations that are more accessible, more usable. So, what would you add? How you how would you explain it to people who might not know? >> Yeah. So, you know, we're making a physical product, which is kind of interesting. I mean, here's an example of a 1 g gold product. Um, that's about $150 melt value of gold today. Um, what's happening is that people have tried to uh make coins smaller and smaller to the point where you can barely hold them. We have a totally different nanotech process that comes from how you make microchips where we're depositing gold atom by atom into a thin film where you can literally see the gold and you can have as much as $4 of gold in your pocket. Um, in addition to that, we have numerous patents where we're able to incorporate the same protections that are found on physical paper money like the US dollar in the euro. And what that allows people to do is first of all, once again, afford gold where at $5,000 [clears throat] an ounce plus a premium, there just aren't many people who can sock that away every paycheck. And so it's breaking the physical gold market which is in turn dragging on the gold price. But more importantly there's a crisis in the physical gold market which is that we are seeing gold coin overs supplied and people are having to sell it back at under spot price which is just bananas. That's the sign of a broken disorderly market. And we heard uh you know I talked to one dealer who said we just bought a million dollars worth of scrap silver or you know old US mintage uh silver for 9% under spot because we don't know how to melt it. So if you have cash you can buy up silver and gold below the market price. That's because coins don't work anymore. It's not a valuable form in an orderly market. premiums would be above the spot price which look the premium is is just an expression of what does it cost or what's the market value above a 100 ounce bar which is now about a million5 no more. So you know we're going to see um smaller pieces attract premium um but the the physical market needs to resort itself out and we think we're going to be the biggest player in that space. It definitely sounds like it's getting chaotic there in terms of the market for the coins. So, with with an ORM, where can somebody go out and use this? How does that work? Can you break that down? >> Absolutely. So, um we sell through the biggest uh you know, gold distributors and and hundreds of gold shops all across the country. We're biggest in North America right now. We actually make more pieces of gold than the US Mint. So um we we only really work with distributors. Um one of them is Goldback. They have created a a spendability network that has thousands of businesses where you can sell your gold. That gives a more liquid market than any single uh gold dealer. Arguably that's not our claim. That's their claim. Um we also work uh with governments and make um gold for central banks in the same way that the US Mint mints coins. um or the Royal Canadian Mancements coins, for example. Um the other thing is that that's just happening in the last few weeks is that the state of Texas is beginning to issue precious metals in the form of gold and silver. And so um actually the state of te Texas through the Texas Bullion Depository is beginning to issue gold bills in our form. And we believe that's a historic development as well. Um, if you want to have spendable gold, um, I think you should look at gold backs. Um, but whether it's Texas, whether it's, um, Tanzania, whether it's, um, goldbacks, or whether it's a bullion product, the Aura mark is underpinning all of that. And, um, we're really proud to be offering those alternatives to consumers. >> Yeah, that's that's very interesting. And it sounds like you are making strides there in terms of adoption. One thing I've been thinking as as you've been talking is many people they like gold as a store of wealth, something that they can save and this is more about you know you can take your gold out into the world and actually use it. So how how do those how do you hold both of those mindsets in in your head? So ultimately, in my opinion, gold is a phenomenal form of of value storage and value preservation. I don't think you should suddenly turn all of your life over to trying to spend gold the best you can. The point is is how do we create an orderly market with incredible liquidity for gold? And the answers to that are you have very very reputable issuers like say Texas on the one hand and how do you have the deepest market for your products and arguably with that many uh places to spend gold. ORM products have more uh places to to sell your gold essentially for goods or services than any other precious metal product or in the country. And you know what we really need to get to is people to be confident that they can buy gold, spend gold, and uh be in that entire value chain. That's breaking for coins for for deep reasons where we've just been talking about and we could talk about it forever. But fundamentally, you need, you know, you need a form of gold that you can trust, that you can know is secure, and that you can pass on. And we're trying to build a new market that's based on that. >> Okay. So, they they're existing essentially. They're coexisting is is how this can work. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wondered also, so we've been talking about these issues in the coin market with premiums. Can you talk about how how premiums work with your product as well, just so we have that context? >> Absolutely. So, just to as a refresher, the spot price of gold is based on physical delivery of uh a very heavy, very valuable borrow depending on where you're whether you're dealing with the London or Comx markets. Um, anything above that that you pay is called the premium. This is basically so that um in addition to the raw materials you can get delivered gold in that form. Now obviously um going from 100 ounces to a 1/ 1,000th of an ounce bill is expensive and involves nanotechnology. So there's premiums associated with it. Um and you know some of the market has been trained oh get your premium as low as possible. We don't say that. We say get your spread as low as possible. And when you have a disorderly market, what you're seeing is sure premiums are 3% over spot right now, 2% in some cases for gold coins at an ounce, but you may have to sell them back at 6% under. So, you know, what we're looking to do over the next 5 years is create a more orderly market where the replacement value of that bill or coin is above spot as it should be, but also the spread is very tight. We're in the very early stages of that, Charlotte. Um, but that's where I think the market needs to go and we have the technology to bring that. >> Okay. So, little bit of a a mindset shift there in terms of how people can think about it. >> I wonder >> going going back to trends that you're seeing in the market, this event that you were just attending, it sounds like it brought together a lot of key players. Anything else you would pull out that maybe people in the gold market aren't aware of and and should be? >> Oh, um, so many things. I think that, you know, we we tend to be very focused on what the dollar is doing. And part of that is because the dollar the gold is denominated in the dollar and priced in the dollar, but also just because of our our perception. But I think that there's a tendency to think that all of the gold investments that your viewers are interested in um whether it's, you know, resource stocks, um physical gold, ETFs of gold, we tend to think about it just on terms of what's going on in the US market. But what I would really counsel people to think about is what do you think the global sentiment is of developments that we're having and um we can do things that are very good for the US economy but also create uncertainty and disruption across the globe. Those things are what are going to drive gold. And if you suddenly see a Breton Woods part two where suddenly everybody is uh going to revalue all of their currencies in terms of the dollar um and all the central bankers are lining up to sign up for that, you know, sell your gold. Uh um but I don't think that world's coming. I think that um the things that have been set in place and the trends across multiple administrations, different political stripes, I think it's only accelerating. And um you know for better or worse I am I'm a big believer in America. I'm a big believer in American ingenuity and I think the world perception is they need independent stores of value with no counterparty risk. That value proposition of gold is here to stay. >> I think the global perspective is so important to remember. It can be really easy especially here in North America to keep that perspective. But great point and I wonder just before I let you go, anything you would share about plans for Valorum moving forward into 2026 or beyond? What what are your goals? What what are you hoping to accomplish? >> Yeah, we um are working with issuing authorities by which I mean central banks, ministries of finance. Um we will be doing some phenomenal products that I absolutely can't discuss right now. Um, but expect this to become much more ubiquitous globally. Um, you know, we think that the plans that our existing partners have are absolute home runs and are going to reach 10x the people that they are. Um, you know, between what Goldback's doing, what Texas doing, I couldn't be more excited and the public just needs what we're doing and I I've never been uh more bullish on the space. Um, but I think that we need to think I don't I don't look at we're a privately held company. We're uh uh a mint that holds the keys to the future uh as far as the gold space. We're not looking at quarterly results and we don't need to because we're not public. We're looking at three, five, 10 years. And how do we reimagine a world where gold is ubiquitous in the pockets of a couple billion people that is going to happen? Um, not just because of Orum, but because of macroeconomic trends, they're irreversible. And um you know I think for your for your listeners find ways whether it's you know uh resource stocks uh you know own physical own physical and um you know follow follow our story because I think it's one of the great stories of um monetary history and we're just at the beginning of it. >> Well thank you so much. We we have a lot to look out for in that case and I would definitely encourage everyone to go look at the ORM. One thing you didn't mention, they are beautiful. I I can imagine people who have them, they they might have trouble spending them just for that reason. So, we'll we'll have a link in the video description, but definitely encourage everyone to to check them out. And thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you. Okay. >> Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte Mloud with investing.com and this is Adam Trexer with the Laurum. >> Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. 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