Main Focus: The episode centered on the newly released Epstein files and their implications for elite legitimacy, with no specific stock, sector, or regional investment pitches.
Key Figures: Discussion referenced Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and Noam Chomsky in the context of associations and reputational fallout, not as investment ideas.
Market/Economic Lens: Emphasis on the erosion of institutional trust and a growing populist mood rather than near-term market calls or sector outlooks.
Policy and Geopolitics: Comparisons of U.S. versus UK/Slovakia responses to the files, and brief mentions of Iran and broader foreign policy signaling political risk rather than specific trades.
Media and Narrative: Critique of mainstream media framing and the “scientific elite,” suggesting longer-term societal and political repercussions.
Historical Analogies: Chernobyl and Anti-Masonic Party analogies used to explain how scandals can undermine regimes over time, with implications more political than financial.
Crypto Note: Crypto industry was briefly mentioned in the context of an event speaker (Caitlin Long) without an actionable thesis or investment recommendation.
Overall Perspective: No actionable equities, GICS sectors, or themes were advocated; the conversation was a political analysis of elite power structures and public trust.
Transcript
Welcome back to the power and market podcast. I'm Ryan McMon, editor-inchief at the Mises Institute. And joining me today are two of our contributing editors, Gatau Bishop and we have Connor O'Keefe. And this has been an unusually fun week. And so we're going to talk about uh Epstein and the Epstein files today a little bit. Not fun in the actual content of course, but fun in the fact that this is making a lot of powerful people look like horrible people, which of course they are. Uh but for first before we move on to that though, we've got an upcoming event in just a few weeks, so the time to sign up is getting short. Um but our Oklahoma City uh event is new is soon. Right. >> Right. Regular power and market listeners might be getting uh tired of uh mentioning this event, but uh hey, there's still a few spots available. Not many. They are going fast. So if you are in the Oklahoma City area and you want to join us for our first event of 26 topic entrepreneurship beyond politics featuring such great speakers as Mr. McMakon, uh Perioland, Timothy Terrell, Keith, Dr. Keith Smith of the Oklahoma Surgery Center, and Caitlyn Long of Custodia Bank for those that are interested in the crypto industry. Um the event is on February 21st and if you uh visit mises.org events, you can find out more about that. And then rest of our event schedule um it's a big big year for us but our next two events is one is in Auburn Alabama. Actually it's a two for one. We've got our libertarian scholars conference on March 19th followed by the Austrian economics research conference. Uh Connor is going to be presenting a paper at LSC. I'm going to be presenting a sports economics paper at AERC. So if you're interested in those topics in particular uh you can check that out at the beautiful campus that we have in Auburn, Alabama. And then uh we look into April, California, the state of the state, everything wrong about what's going on in Sacramento. So if you're in the San Diego area on April 25th, hope you will check that out. Got many, many more planned, but I'm only going to read three today. >> I've I you know, I've got an event almost every single month this year. Uh >> make tour. >> Yeah, it's Well, we haven't had this many events in the past. Plus, we've brought back the the Libertarian Studies Conference. We've got Mises or Rothbard University >> coming up. I mean, there's just something going on. The only reason I'm not going to be at our events in May is because I've got kids going away to college. I got like a college freshman starting >> uh soon. So, I got a lot of that stuff. Um, but next year, >> the hopefully next year I could be at uh the next Rothbard U. But until all that stuff happens, let's talk about the Epstein files. Not so much Epstein. I don't know. I I can't believe this the the the content I'm seeing on Twitter just in terms of the videos, the emails, just Twitter is the absolute perfect medium for this sort of stuff where it's just the mockery of the powerful is so delightful to see. And it's just and a lot of it's just people I've hated of course for years, right? like Bill Gates and lots of people who are functioning in the uh right the expert intellectual class. All these people it turns out were complete sickos and monsters and at the very least they're hanging out with a sicko and a monster and don't seem to see any problem with it at all. Just illustrating how these people are so motivated by greed, avarice, a thirst for feeling important and all that stuff. all you got to do is be a billionaire, wave some money around, and suddenly these people don't care if you're having sex with teenagers and that sort of thing. So, I think this is a nice insight into uh how the the real ruling class functions and the sorts of people that circulate in those circles. Uh so, that's just kind of my initial impression. Uh though, as you started to see the info come in, what what do you think? >> Well, I think this is the most important story of the 21st century. Um, and part of it it's less about the the revelations within it because again I think if you've been following the story, none of the content I think surprises you, right? Like I mean this this was always the you know when people were talking about Epcol revelations that you expected to happen but it's the fact it actually got released that you have the documentation. I mean again this would be like you know if if if we found video of them staging the moon landing, right? This would be like if you if we found undisclosed uh photos of a CIA agent killing JFK, right? I mean this is one of the you know this this is the leading conspiracy theory of the modern era released. Um and obviously I mean you know big win for Thomas Massie getting it out there and and very interesting how that whole process happened. And the thing is like if if you look at it I mean some of the stuff on Twitter like it is worth noting right like you know you know there's like spam email you talking about like you know unsolicited email about like you know Joe Biden like being assassinated on like 2019th and we're under martial law and like you know typical QAnon stuff and like I don't think that really is part of the the grand reveal the Epcene stuff like you get I got get his his Xbox Live account banned was was pretty funny. So like there's there's tons of plenty of fluff within it. Um but the the actual revelations where you actually see the the the go, you know, between correspondence of Epstein and you know a variety of these figures, it it is just this this public reveal of indisputable evidence of what people have felt in their gut about the ruling elite and where that goes from here is is very very fascinating. Um but yeah, I mean just like it's incredible something like this was actually made to the public. Um, and this is just where we are right now. >> Yeah, Connor, I mean, I I saw your article on the topic, which we'll get into a little bit more detail of, but I mean, is it in terms of short-term and long term? Do you see any short-term effects from this or do you think this is more something that's just going to under continue to undermine people's confidence in the regime and the people in it just in the medium and longer term? >> That's a good question. And I think the the answer is kind of related. I think no, there's not going to be short-term action taken. And I think that is part of what's going to feed into this really really um desanctifying the the elite and our whole system here. So um I yeah I haven't really reflected on it in the same way though has maybe this is one of the biggest stories of the 21st century but I do think the significance of it is huge but it really comes down to that sort of desification of these people that work so hard to present themselves as these genius leaders. Um and yeah it's like just reading through even just like some of the stuff that's going around on Twitter. It's just tearing all that down. There's some pretty disgusting details uh coming out. And I think if if I'm not mistaken, um this is only like half of what they're going to release based on the law. I think there there's more coming. And I don't know. I don't know. May maybe they're uh saving the worst stuff for later or maybe they kind of tried to get out ahead of it. But um yeah, I don't know. It's just sort of it's a huge release. It was like over three million documents. I'm kind of waiting for, you know, I I'm not going through all of it myself. I'm relying on a lot of journalists and, you know, people on Twitter uh to do that. I did assume that the big names are going to be searched out first and we got a lot of that. We got a lot of big names um from around the world in this sort of initial batch, but there's still a lot more to go through. And so, I think things are going to be coming out from this one release for a good amount of time here. And if we get more, there's just there's no telling what more information is going to come out. But yeah, when you kind of take a step back, that's sort of the I I think the big dynamic here is that um there's just a lot of really shady things happening. And what people are noticing is that the official channels, they're not even interested in pretending to look like they're going to do something about that. They're they're going to even like start the process of bringing some people to justice. And that is really revealing and I think helps people understand the actual situation we're in. Yeah, there's been really no interest um from anybody like outrage. Oh, we're going to nail these people. We're going to start uh getting justice for these victims. Nothing. Hey, remember just a few years ago the whole me too, believe the women stuff? Well, haha, that was a joke. Obviously, no one in Washington actually believes that. Rape's only a problem if it can be somehow used to support your current candidate. And that's clearly how Washington is functioning right now. I Yeah, I wonder if this is the sort of thing and this the the way the regime is so unenthusiastic about talking about it and sweeping it under the rug. I know I can't help but thinking just because uh I've been obsessed with the issue of Chernobyl for years. Uh, I thought it was great when that um uh that miniseries came out like six years ago from HBO, which was pretty good. I thought u I guess just because it affected me at a young age. I remember when I was about 10 and flipping through uh a bunch of National Geographics that had pictures of uh the event and the the blown up uh power power plant and all that stuff. And I remember reading a caption that it was a because it was a picture of the firemen fighting the fire uh at Chernobyl and the caption said something about how all these guys are dead now. And that affected me a lot when I was 10. And so I remember reading that and so I of course watched the the documentary and everything and uh or the uh the miners which has been followed by other documentaries since because we're coming up by the way on the 40th anniversary of that. Uh but something that that always was interesting was how much did that affect the downfall of the Soviet Union, right? There was obviously no immediate effect. They didn't have elections the next year. There was really no way for the public to express any sort of outrage or anything like that. But decades later, people would talk a lot about how yeah, that was a major part of undermining the regime because what was the regime's reaction to it all along? ignore it, sweep it under the rug, make some minor tweaks, and then claim the whole problem was solved. And they found, of course, a small number of uh scapegoats that they could pin the whole thing on when when it was far more of a systematic problem. Uh so far, I haven't even seen anyone trying to get any scapegoats at work here in Washington for this issue. But I wonder if this is the sort of thing where 10 years from now you look back and you go, "Yeah, the uh the Epstein thing made a real difference in how people perceived the government after that." I hope that's true and I hope that certainly uh leads to that. Um though now though you had some thoughts that it might lead to some electoral change, the question of course would be would that actually lead to any structural change or anything like that. But nevertheless, that would be something. Uh we would know because they would the voters could express at least something through that. But so what do you think? >> Well, that's why in the short term on the most interesting aspect in terms of you know actionable, you know, political ramifications has been Trump's reaction to it uh before the the files were released. Right. You this was a I mean pretty much everyone that helped play a role with Thomas Massie on getting these files released have gotten nuked by Trump administration. Um, and you that includes, uh, you know, Marjgerie Taylor Green, right? Uh, uh, Nancy Mace. I mean, Nancy Mace has done some other self-sabotaging things in her own right. Like, I'm not trying to I'm not not here trying to defend her, but but like leading into the midterms, like how much is this really like because this is this is I think one of the interesting things about it is that this is not a partisan issue, right? Like this is not something that is easily digestible within a red versus blue dynamic, right? You know, there's you you've got both sides of the aisle. I mean Epstein, you know, himself, you know, if you look at the the donor elite just by the nature of who are the elite. I mean, it's a lot of Democrat donors and Bill Clinton, things like that. Obviously, there's the Trump uh, you know, friendly connection there and and and a lot of his, you know, friends and colleagues and whatever, you know, within the files, right? So, this it it doesn't work in your traditional left versus white, right, red versus blue dynamic. And I think that's one of the reasons why this is is it's such a weird thing for the political impact of it. But you know for the last you almost 20 years now what has been the number one term used in uh uh political trends right it's the p word it's populism you know it was the tea party revolution it was I mean to a certain extent Barack Obama's election it was Trump it was Bernie Sanders it was Occupy Wall Street it's etc etc etc and and this is the perfect story for the zeitgeist that previously existed right and that's why I think this is so important is because we we it's not that it's even changing it's not pivoting uh pre-existing views it's it is justifying pre-exist existing views. It is justifying the cynical nature. You know, we we've talked for, you know, many many episodes, right, about the just the collapse of faith in broader institutions, court, you know, police, you military, you across the board, right? Everything sees everything as political andor corrupt andor incompetent andor sinister. And this feeds into all of I mean, it's not just like when you look at the emails, it's not simply the sinister nature of it, but it's just and you the the the haphazard way that some of these things are discussed, right? It's it's just showing that the people that are ruling are not are not only not virtuous, they're not necessarily you all that uh you different, right, than than the rest of us. Obviously, their habits are, right? I'm not but like, you know, the way that they communicate and things like that. And so like you know this this feeds into these underlying you know >> massive cynicism of the entire operating machinery and obviously that's going to be pushed and pulled for different motivations in different ways right you got economic right you've got economic left you've got right-wing progressives that are doing their own sort of thing all under the banner of the system doesn't work right and so you know what what movement right is able to capitalize on this cynicism um and and where what that might lead to a future sure can go a variety of different ways. Um, but I think there's definitely uh, again, I'm usually not a Rod Dreer fan, but I want to shout out Bill Anderson who sent an article that that he wrote on this and kind of describing it as like a pre-revolutionary mood. And I think that very well captures what what I feel as the fallout from this because again, and again, I think that there's even um, you know, you even talk to like your dieh hard like MAGA MAGA people, right? And and they'll defend Trump, right? like and they'll they'll say like look like if if there's really anything you know a lot of the Trump stuff you know on the more salacious activities or like you know FBI tips and things like that and fine but I think there's a lot of frustration with how the entire administration has acted upon this and and I think that's you know so so even amongst the the MAGA faithful um and and that particular brand of populism there's a lot of frustration with the way that this particular story has happened because again like one of the major zeitgeist stories of the Trump movement has been you know Q anon sex trafficking all this sort of stuff and like you see an you see an order from Wayfair about like uh purchasing something for $9,000 and like that feeds into like exactly the sort of you know crazy dismissed sort of narratives that have been out there and and like Qanon world like it it hits every single uh uh you know populist skeptical conspiracy whatever term you want to use it hits every single uh uh group out there for the last, you know, 20 years. >> Well, and I like too how it's been helpful in taking down and embarrassing the the more pro- regime uh fake uh dissident MAGA influencer types, right? So, you remember a couple year or I guess it was less than two years ago, right? It was in this term those like Epstein files binders that the that the uh the administration was handing out to all these loser podcasters who were holding them up and act like they're going to bring justice uh libs of Tik Tok woman and that DC Drano guy just like just garbage people who have always just made excuses for the regime. And uh now of course they have very remarkably little to say about the actual Epstein files being released uh because it I guess it might embarrass some of their friends or they don't know how it's going to benefit them somehow. But that's been a humiliation. And then just in the larger media it's been great too. Something that people have been posting a ton of in recent days is an article from the Atlantic from a few years ago called here's the title uh the great fake child sex trafficking epidemic and uh it's by a woman named what Caitlyn Tiffany and it's it's the usual sort of media narrative. Oh, here's this thing you heard that makes powerful people look bad but it's all just a conspiracy. It's all just crazy right-wing people saying things and and it's specifically about the whole Epstein thing and how it's not true. Don't worry about it and everything's great. And so those people uh just look like complete fools as well. Now, I'm sure they'll continue to be very popular among their friends at cocktail parties, uh, you know, sipping Chardonnay or whatever with their degenerate family members and all of that, but the larger broader public continues to see the media for what it is, as well as uh the the Manhattan elite that controls so much of the media and what people get to see and just how awful these people are. So, that's that's delightful as well. Um, now I do want to go over though to some of your specific observations on this, uh, Connor because you had a nice article this week. Uh, the title is, "Everyone agrees our elites are terrible, so why are we stuck with them?" And that's a great question. So, uh, can you kind of tell us a little bit what your, uh, what what the article generally is about because yeah, I definitely think people should read it. Yeah, I it was sort of I mean it's a long article. I think it's the longest one I've written so far. It took me a while and I didn't focus too much on the specifics of the Epstein case. I tried to zoom back and I kind of tried to use it as a a way to potentially introduce people to some thinkers on uh various topics. I mainly focused at the beginning on uh elite theorists, especially the Italian elite theorist. So I was talking about Moscow and Paro and um uh Michelle's who who's I think is how you say that Michelle's um who came up with the iron law of oligarchy which is something that like I discovered pretty early on in my political journey which uh was kind of it's become a big part of my worldview. Um so I was kind of laying that out. But I I talked a little bit about propaganda, but basically there are all of these thinkers that have spent a lot of time trying to understand elite dynamics and just the fact that every single country um even you know the most totalitarian to the most democratic or you know libertarian have had some kind of elite non- elite divide there and uh it's that's clearly the system that we're living in. So people have thought long and hard about this exact kind of setup and I sort of wanted to to give people links and like show people books. So if they wanted to dig dig in on that um they could but at the same time I think sort of the the angle that uh the Mises Institute can kind of offer to this whole conversation. a thing that's often left out, I think, especially when you're reading into like those Italian elite theorists, and they're they're becoming a lot more popular, I've noticed, in the last few years, especially with kind of the the new right. I think I've noticed a lot of people read into them this idea that the state is this inherent part of like human nature, basically, that it's something that has always existed and always will exist. And I think that's incorrect. I mean, surprise, surprise, I'm Rothbartian here. Um, but I think if you actually dig into it, what at least uh my interpretation of a lot of the elite theory, they're kind of talking about like especially with the island of oligarchy, there will always be some, you know, kind of hierarchy that's just natural in any kind of social setting, any kind of organization. However, what we talk about when we talk about the state is something very different. It's this whole idea that the hierarchy or that the people at top at the top of the hierarchy operate in a different system of rules from everybody else. And I think if you kind of get back to this Epstein story, this what this is showing is that that is the system that we live under. People don't act like, you know, we're we're seeing in these emails unless they feel like they're completely immune from accountability. And really if you just zoom out and like look at just about any story we're uh talking about on this show just in general that's sort of like the fundamental aspect of our our system is that the elites feel that they are immune from accountability and in large part they are. And so that is specifically this kind of ingredient here that I think is very important for understanding like yes it's like what I said in the title it's becoming pretty uncontroversial to say now that you know we're run by these terrible people that at best are really bad at fixing our problems and at worst are these complete monsters but we can never seem to actually pivot away from them. elections don't actually uh like result in new people coming to power or at least different types of people coming to power. And like that is because of this whole idea that these people operate, you know, in in a different moral realm and that we h we have this obligation to basically obey them and we can't walk away from them if they end up being terrible. And so that that's sort of like that's the bigger picture story that I think this Epstein stuff kind of feeds into and is like a a small chapter and like a an unusual kind of revelation. But I I just sort of wanted to lay all that out almost like as an introduction to people that are just sort of starting to wake up to this. Um kind of giving them like almost like a reading list so they can kind of dive into this whole dynamic because it's incredibly important. Yeah, I kind of chuckled a little bit when I saw you were invoking Pareto because I was writing uh an article using them as well. I got I've got an upcoming uh lecture at uh the Journal of Libertarian Studies and so I've been Reiko is a big fan of these Italian elite theorists as was Rothbart. Rothbart thought there was a lot of insight there and liked Paro um and especially because of his connections to Molinari. A lot of people have tried to say that these guys and they misread them just as you say. They misread them saying that the state is this inherent thing that always has to exist. Uh states and elites are not the same thing. Uh and people have tried to pin the title of fascist on Parto specifically. Um because in he PTO could see some value in um in the Italian fascists back in the early 20s back before uh they started to do the terrible things that we associate uh with fascism and he died before um Mussolini really started to exercise any power. So you can't really say that he was a real fascist in any means but they try to claim him sometimes. But he was always rooted in Molinari and in hardcore radical liberals. All they were trying to do is really point out the problem in society of the fact that you have these governing elites and they're extremely difficult to get rid of because they create whole systems that protect themselves and also identifying what what they are, not just uh what they pretend to be, which is of course what do they pretend to be? They pretend to be these people who care about the will of the people. And oh, if an election doesn't agree with us, we willingly leave office and disappear and leave things to other people. That's not how that works at all. The the actual governing elite do not rotate in and out of power based on elections. And that's why there are restrictions on which parties get to actually have access to the upper levels of power. That's why there are restrictions within those parties as to who can actually run for office within those parties. and they're looser at the local level than at the than at the national level where where stuff really matters in terms of maintaining their power. But I think that it's it was timely for you to talk about those things because I think that really will help inoculate some people against maybe some disappointment that they might have when they see that nothing really is immediately happening as a result. I mean, this happens all the time and people all the time get converted from being free market pro- freedom people into just inactive cynics. They just give up and they stop saying or doing anything because they're like, "What's the point?" Because nothing ever changes because they expect things to change like in a few years outrages like this happen and they expect something to immediately change. They expect the regime to fall down. uh but it's it's not going to because the elites have constructed very durable very uh strong institutions designed designed to protect them and that's why you're you see so little enthusiasm where where would these prosecutions come from because the state simply the regime the system that's in place is designed to not do that sort of thing. It's designed to oppress everybody else to keep everybody else in line. Uh but as I see an increasingly popular uh line that people use is the purpose of the system is what it does. Uh the the system exists to protect the people in power. That's the purpose of the system. Uh you can say it's for other purposes but in practice it's clearly not. So I think we need to just take a more um rigorous uh and realistic view that the Italian elite theorists would have taken which is that okay let's try and really analyze what the situation is. take full into full account uh the institutions that the elites have erected around themselves and try to understand how this will affect things in the medium and longer term. And I do think it will in fact have an effect and I think that may even be expressed in elections uh in the shorter and midterm. But the larger question is just how will it undermine uh the regime overall? And I think it will. It's just that's not the sort of thing that immediately plays out. So we we still have a ways to go in terms of even venturing a guess as to I think what the larger longer term effects will be. And if you want to go even more obscure than Italian elite theorists, uh something that comes to mind to me is um with the anti-masonic party during the uh the Jonian era where you had a very similar similar situation arise, right? Like there was this public perception that Mason Lodge members were were beyond authority, right? That that they could kill, that they could, you know, rape and murder and do whatever they want. and that as long as you are part of the lodge, you were isolated from the consequences that anyone else would would would suffer. It was the perspective that there's deep embedded um you know that this is deeply embedded within the political elite. It it it manifests itself in an actual political party and John John Quincy Adams was a an anti-Mason member um for a brief period of time after the presidency. Obviously never won an election, you know, nationally. It was never a nationalally, you know, powerful movement, but it ended up being an important uh part of the political zeitgeist that the other parties tried to work in their structure and and it became, you know, a a a a part of is something that had to be be reckoned with and and I could see something similar emerging from from this. Um, and the interesting thing is that again, I think a lot of that was kind of behind the was an element of the mega coalition. Um, and I I think you're again that's it's you know what comes next after this I think is is really fascinating from that because I think it's it's open season right and there's there's plenty of people on the left that are going to try to co-op these sort of things you know the the you the major parties themselves right national leadership of these parties none of them know how to handle those particularly well um but like having that as like a a a major national part of the political conversation I think does manifest itself over time and we've seen that play out in a variety of ways Right. Like it's it's so clearly not going to at least in the near term um become like go into the partisan mold because like you said this is a bipart like there was a very bipartisan presence in the files that were released. And so it's a lot more of like this and it's not really about the elections. It's about that what people are telling themselves and how people understand how our current system works. And that of course is really important to the regime. I mean, it is notable that the um Trump administration is really struggling with the the optics here. I mean, I think just cuz they were so clearly trying so hard to prevent these from being released and then, you know, they they lose that and now they're trying to spin it as they're the most transparent administration in history. And it's just like so obviously uh a political loss for them, but they haven't really like it doesn't seem like they've settled on their strategy for for combating this. Well, that that's what makes it so interesting is that the reason why this was such a major point of leverage for Trump was precisely because it was a campaign issue that they ran on, >> right? And so like that was part of the broader packet and obviously you surprise surprise like you know campaign promises go go go unanswered or explicitly acted and contrary to um right but but like this was a a point this was one of the the go-to applause lines at a turning point event or or you know at um you know at a Trump rally was talking about release the Epstein files right you know you have Donald Trump's sons and whatever like everyone was talking about this like this was part this was this was not it's not this was was just out in the ether and not you This is something they steered into and so steering into it and then handling it the way they have made it the issue that you made it this particular potent political grenade. I mean again I don't again if I don't understand like that calculation there like you know you catch a car and then you know what are you going to do with it? But >> but like that that is an additional factor to it and it also goes to the demand the public has you know for this sort of stuff. So it's it's it's a you know we'll see what comes next. And what's interesting too is I mean it's early but it looks like like from my perspective if I was going to be like a strategist for the regime trying to help them weather the storm like the proper thing to do is to crack down on some people and like what we're seeing in the UK is that um I guess it was Kier Star had a it was the ambassador to the US I forget his name um was revealed in these files to be pretty close with Epste and then I guess there was some um indication that he shared like secret financial data about the UK and the EU. So there might there might be a whole like insider trading thing happening, but they're just they they're kicking this guy, I think, out of the House of Lords. They're basically um going after him. And I think in Slovakia, I want to say there was like an official that was appeared in the files and he got thrown out of the government essentially. Like that's the smart thing to do. It reminds me um of I think it was in late 2023. you remember when that whole thing came out about uh Bob Mendez, the senator, and basically I don't remember all the details off the top of my head, but he was essentially using his position in the government to help benefit some uh you know, well-connected people and the country of Egypt, I think it was. Um and it's just like that is how our entire system works. It's all about essentially courting people in power to benefit yourself or, you know, your country uh or whatever. like that that's our whole system is designed to basically carry that out. But he did it in ways that technically broke some of the rules and so they had to essentially uh throw him in prison as a result of that. And that that's because like the scam is only really able to continue when they have these rules that are really like it's almost like a ritual that they go through. They like, you know, technically do everything above board and so they can say it's no longer corruption. um and kind of pass everything off as if as if it's like completely legit. But to do that and to keep that going, you really have to like slam down hard on anybody that breaks any of those rules. And so the fact that they're not doing that with any of this Epstein stuff and like of course like people are pointing out and I think it's fair like there it's not like there's explicit crimes that we can point to here uh in in these files. It's more like there are so many smoking guns here. There are so many things that would like in any other circumstance obviously lead to an investigation or at least like official channels starting the process of hey we need to look further into this and none of that is happening. And so that really starts to kill the whole illusion that oh it's okay like whatever they're doing is legitimate because they're following these rules or whatever they're not even at least as of now trying to do that in the same way that at least the I mean the UK and I guess Slovakia are doing it. So, it could be interesting to compare the different government uh responses to this, but it just seems like they're making a complete and total mistake, which I'm cool with. >> Well, I think just uh what you said was a lot of it is just impressions that people are getting of it, right? There's in many cases it's not well here's a specific crime we can point to but it again it just shows the the sort of people we're dealing with here and the way they talk to each other and just their total disregard for decency and decent human beings. And uh I I think we we really need to keep doing the most we can to get people just to have an emotional reaction to the ruling class that is one of disdain and disgust because we've got still so many people who are just desperate to support and like and idolize and really just assume the best from people in positions of power. And every time you do that, you just end up with uh just the worst because they will absolutely abuse that trust they get from people every chance they can get. And I mean, you just see it in say the way that so many people who proclaim themselves to be, oh, I you know, the government can't do anything right. I don't believe in the government. Um I'm skeptical of every I'm a freethinker. And then when you finally like really when they're faced with the actual opposition of the other side, they always end up reflexively becoming emotionally attached to their side and defending their politicians. And so they they don't really have this uh detached view of things at all. And you could look at it like really democracy in America. I think the best metaphor is it is it's right you you occasionally get the chance to vote for prison guard A or prison guard B. Right? This is not a referendum on which one's a good person, which one's a bad. They're all terrible people with the extremely rare exceptions like a Ron Paul or Thomas Bassie, right? Like the one out of a thousand. And and yet you've got people acting like this is a choice between delightful person or bad person. The reality is we live in this giant open air prison that is the United States where you're essentially slaves and all of your property is really their property and you get a chance every now and then to vote on the guy you think will beat you less and steal from you less. I don't see anything wrong with that. Uh, and I don't think it means democracy really um is is a an act where you endorse the government's legitimacy. I don't think that's true. I don't think people are are wrong for voting necessarily. Uh but until people come around to that idea and start taking that that more that darker view of the regime, they're just going to keep attaching themselves emotionally to the people who they decide are their guys. And I am hoping that this Epstein stuff really helps drive home about like if you're if you're dealing with people kind of in those circles, you should just assume they're awful until proven otherwise. >> Well, but another component to that though is that you know, as far as I can tell, there's not a lot of members of Congress, right, in the Epstein files. And I think one of the points to take away from that is that they're just not important enough to be in there, right? Like like you know, I'm sure there's plenty of members of Congress that'd be perfectly happy to to to have been at at Epstein's Island, but they just aren't important to it. That's another aspect of it when we think about like the way American democracy really really works. Like most members of Congress, I think are like pretty decent people. Like, you know, there's plenty of them that are are I'm sure extremely compromisable. I know that they're extremely compromisable in the way they act. I can remember like, you know, some of the stuff that came up with, you know, some of Madison Cawthorne's u statements a few years ago. But but the reality is that Congress really is just not that important of a cog to really be considered amongst the elite when it really comes down to it. Um and and and of course the the global dynamic of this is worth mentioning because I guarantee you that there's somebody who's listening to this on YouTube who's already typed in the comments that you know you're kind of missing the big story here which is that you know a big aspect of you know the FC files is his connections to to foreign governments right and the compro and the ability to get compromising uh uh dirt on a variety of public figures um you know big movers and shakers and the way that that can be exploited by uh uh you know foreign governments as well and and whether you want to say that you know Epste was working is for Israel or he was working for Russia or you know working for maybe all the above whatever. Um I I I you know that goes to the point that this is this is much broader than simply politics as we understand it you know as we're taught in in middle school that there is very much these these global circles of gen of of genuine elites that are you know very rarely going to ever appear on a ballot um but have massive outsized impact on global affairs and the intermingling of all these social circles there. I definitely wanted to hit that that component of it because I'm I'm sure there's some listeners who are angry we have not already. >> Well, that's extremely important and and in my article um which I was just independently reading a bunch of paro uh on my own which was titled why America's two-party system will never threaten the true political elites. It's as you say though members of your average member of Congress they're junior members in all of that. They don't they're not the ones who decide who gets to run, who gets uh a shot at being in the upper circles of power. They're not valued advisors. Uh that's why, as you say, right, who are the who are the people who get mentioned in here? They're like Bill Gates type people. They're Harvard professors people, the people who are in and out of all these different administrations determining what the next generation is going to think and say. And they're the thought molders. Um they're the propagandists. They're the ones who are asked, "Oh, should this person be allowed to be in this position of power?" They're in many ways gatekeepers as well. And and that was the point Paro made is that yeah, the people who are actually allowed in political parties allowed to circulate through the government, right? They're they're approved. They're they're deemed to not be capable of taking down the regime or to even want to do so. They're they're not they're not interested in that level of radicalism. There are of course power there are um interest groups, political parties and such that are made of true counter elites as paro would put it. People who genuinely want to tear down the regime. People who might even be a real threat to it. Those people are not allowed in power. Those people are not allowed to form any sort of majority government. And so they're they're out and they're they're just not a concern. And so obviously you're not going to see those people uh hanging out with Epstein. But even some of these junior members in the in the regime who are the elected government, they don't even warrant that uh either. But it it is fun though just to see uh for example something that that uh I've been thinking about is for the first time I saw I don't even know if it was in the files but it's now been making the rounds is a video of Epstein talking in some interview. >> Uh and Oh yeah, it was Steve Bannon. That's where I am. And and he was asking him a few different questions and and Epstein, who of course was always trying to show you what a smart area fellow he is, started talking about how writing is bad and that we shouldn't teach children to write because it makes you think like too rigidly or something. And then he said, "And that's why Plato and Aristotle never wrote anything." which you don't have to be beyond a college freshman to know that Plato and Aristotle wrote a lot of stuff. Maybe he was thinking of Socrates or something, but I mean, what a right? And these are this is what we're supposed to think are these are the smart guys. They're in positions of power because they're such geniuses because they're more clever. They're more clever in one area. They're more clever at manipulating people and getting into positions of power and they're they're good at organizing institutions to serve themselves. But this idea that they have some sort of virtue, some sort of knowledge, some sort of culture, completely untrue. And the more we see of these people, the more obvious that becomes. >> Well, speaking of Epstein video clips, one one of my favorite clips that came out was him explaining um fractional reserve banking. And I was like, "Okay, okay, wait, wait a minute. Let let him cook." And he was talking about like just like how how important this is. The last time I had that sort of um you know had that sort of reaction was was watching the return of the golden nar the ISIS uh economic propaganda video and it also had like the same explanation of like fractional reserve banking and I was like I don't know what to do with this but but here here are two very evil things talking speaking my language on fractional reserve banking. So I was like okay this is >> it's like that onion headline that always goes around about like the person you disagree with made an excellent point. Yeah. Or the the worst person in the world made an excellent point. >> Yes. happens a lot. >> ISIS victories would have been good for gold. But >> there was also references to the Austrian School of Private Equity in there, which is that's a it's a term I hadn't heard before, but they were talking about us about the Austrian school. But >> well, I've seen confirmed Ron Paul hater. >> Yes, that's true. >> Gee, what a shock, right? I >> Well, I mean, I don't know. Do you if we just had to create if you had to pick somebody who you think was made to look the worst or maybe is going to is going to look especially bad as a result of this. I don't know. Do any names pop into your minds? Anyone specifically? I think uh one that stands out to me and I was actually I was going to bring it up um because it just feeds exactly into what we were just talking about. Everything we're talking about how like it's it's all these elections. it's all fake. That the the divide between the Democrats and Republicans that just being an illusion that they stoke. I think one of the best uh like thinkers that has at least helped me understand that dynamic was Nam Chosky who was very much involved in or included in these files. He he's the one who came up with that quote. I don't remember the exact um phrasing but essentially that the regime they try to you know they have these two parties with um very very similar views and then they try to stoke vicious vicious debates within that you know super small uh corridor of allowable opinion as as Tom Woods says which is so true I mean it's so like cartoonish how the fights happening in Congress over like the top marginal tax rate being like 39% versus 39 it's 37.5% and they'll just act like this is you know like the like we have the extreme right-wingers versus these like communists and it's just so like obviously not true and Trumpsky like did a lot of I think woke a lot of people up to that dynamic and so the fact that he was not just featured in it but had a long email to Epstein written in 2019 like basically when all this stuff was already coming out giving him advice as to how to like weather the media storm is um I think just terrible. for his brand there. So, um well, like nobody looks good in this like he like this is just such a huge departure from sort of like where he was in the minds of his uh fans and followers that it I just think it just destroys his reputation. >> Yeah, I think that's that's a good answer right there. >> I don't know. I've kind of enjoyed just basically the scientific elite uh showing up in all of these photos. uh Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, I don't know if he counts as scientific elite, but certainly tries to think of himself that way. Uh and uh and Bill Gates, of course, who's tried to make himself into be some sort of scientist, I guess. Uh just they're popping up everywhere in this stuff. And and that's who I think you need to look to as to okay, who's being uh who are they trying to cultivate into their group? Who are they trying to bring in? who are they uh who are they trying to be pals with? And it's a lot of those people, a lot of the people out there who are telling you that they're the scientific expert class. I guess Hayek would love this, right? to see the I mean this is this is sort of in a certain way really feeding into his theory about scientism and this idea that we're replacing the old intellectuals with this new scientific elite that uh we'll you know get rid of all of our old moral thinking and all of that and now we're just we're purely scientific now which was a certain strain of thought in the 19th century uh but certainly really gained a lot of ground in the 20th and obviously these guys uh have no problem participating in a bunch of degenerate garbage and love to hang out with people like Epstein. So, uh, and I think it just further nails home also, I mean, you you see all these pictures that is the Clintons with Stephen Hawking, right? That is the Clintons with Bill Gates, right? They're they're if they're Washington elite, all their kids go to the same schools together, they go to the same cocktails parties together. If they're not from the same country or not living in the same city, well, then they're hanging out uh with Epstein together. So these these tight uh social bonds between these these elites quote unquote um is is very interesting and and uh so I think a lot that gives some fodder to some people the next time that uh you have something like COVID and you've got Bill Gates coming out and telling everybody what to do and how to run their own lives. I think that'll be a good thing for that. That's for sure. I don't know. Throw anyone specific that you want to trash on for a minute? Oh, >> I mean it's it's I mean Chsky I think I really like the chops going I mean the thing about B Gates is that like he he a lot of that I think was kind of already priced in um just because of you know like he got divorced over the Epstein stuff already and I mean actually seeing the details you know in an Epstein email and not you know not like one of these tips things is is is pretty vivid there. Um, but to the elite question though as as well, like it is interesting that and and I'm not trying to I don't want to paint an overly broad brush um in terms of of things, but it's just it's it's I think it's very vivid where one of the the meta stories of the last few years was a narrative about how kind of an an old guard type of elite, think traditional Wall Street, was being replaced by a new elite, think Silicon Valley. and how within the files you find emails with Teal and and Elon Musk and things like that. Again, I'm not, you know, I think one of my favorite emails was like uh Epstein emailing Elon saying, "Oh, you know, the UN is in town." Oh, this and this this is to a broader point. He's like, "Oh, yeah, that the UN's in town. A lot of delegates are here. Like, you you should come to the you should come to the the mansion." And and and Elon's like, "Well, you know, I've got too many too much work to do. Like, I don't want to hang around, talk to some diplomats." And then Elon and then Epstein responds like, "No, I'm talking about young cute girls." And and for one, like it goes to the fact that you being in town means uptick of of Epstein fodder. Um, but that's also just kind of like like Elon being autistic there. Um, and but but again, it's just it's that the I think this feeds just this larger perception of of cynicism about the entire thing is, you know, the common point of, you know, old and new. you could find a lot of those same personalities within in these same files. Um, and I think that that goes to, you know, some of the the deeper route that's out there. >> Well, I mean, just on larger issues, I mean, there before we were kind of deciding what to talk about today, um, I mean, the the issue of the perennial issue of a war with Iran keeps coming back. I mean, and this kind of leads to the question, is is this going to be a problem before the midterms? Is this going to be a problem for Trump's agenda or can it can he just kind of be muddling through and keep doing the same thing he's always been doing using the same methods with war with Iran, using the same methods with the Fed chairman? Uh is he going to have to change gears at all or is it just going to be more of the same at least uh going forward for the for the foreseeable future? >> Well, I did notice that the Ayatollah was not in the Epstein files. So, you know, credit to him. >> Shocking. Um >> that would have been >> I mean I I don't think Yeah. I mean and and I mean I think I I don't how much this I I think the only thing in in terms of policy that this could impact um is you know given how bad the handling of it was by the DOJ, right? You know is Pam Bondi fired between now and the midterms. is is is it seen as a necessity um to build credibility to make her a particular scapegoat from the administration for this situation? Right. That's something I could see. Um but the problem the broader problem is though is that you know I think we're we're exactly where we we've been for quite some time where I expect a lot of the action from a a policy perspective to be on things that Trump can directly control because Congress is Congress. Again, not a body relevant enough to be that well represented in these files. And so that that naturally leads itself to doing more on the foreign policy side of things to project action and and a variet change and and variety of things. Um and and what that manifests itself, you know, from the the edicts of uh the state department and the the department of war and and whatever is going to be interesting, you know, is is you know, I think the the chances of Cuba, right, are are on, you know, go up. Um you know, and trying to find more wins on the table or perceived wins on the table. Again, the Iran situation is going to be very interesting. you know, do are they able to get the some some grand compromise on, you know, the nuclear program over there or whatever. But I I I think in general, um, this is a trend that I don't think is directly affected by the Epstein files themselves, but more this broader trend where, you know, Congress is dysfunctional. Um, you know, what Trump can do on itself is is where they're going to focus their attentions to try to, you know, project that, hey, look, we're actually doing a lot more than the media is telling us. >> All right. Well, with that, we'll go ahead and wrap up this episode of Power and Market Podcast. Thank you, Tho. Thank you, Connor, for joining me today. Yeah, if uh you're interested in this sort of thing, be sure and go to our website, mises.org. That's mises.org. If you want to know about our upcoming events, click on events. But uh also, you can get daily or weekly emails just to be notified when any of this new content comes out. That's up at the top. Just click on subscribe. So, thank you everyone for listening out there. We'll be back next time with more. So, we'll see you then. All right.
Are the Epstein Files the Chernobyl of the West?
Summary
Transcript
Welcome back to the power and market podcast. I'm Ryan McMon, editor-inchief at the Mises Institute. And joining me today are two of our contributing editors, Gatau Bishop and we have Connor O'Keefe. And this has been an unusually fun week. And so we're going to talk about uh Epstein and the Epstein files today a little bit. Not fun in the actual content of course, but fun in the fact that this is making a lot of powerful people look like horrible people, which of course they are. Uh but for first before we move on to that though, we've got an upcoming event in just a few weeks, so the time to sign up is getting short. Um but our Oklahoma City uh event is new is soon. Right. >> Right. Regular power and market listeners might be getting uh tired of uh mentioning this event, but uh hey, there's still a few spots available. Not many. They are going fast. So if you are in the Oklahoma City area and you want to join us for our first event of 26 topic entrepreneurship beyond politics featuring such great speakers as Mr. McMakon, uh Perioland, Timothy Terrell, Keith, Dr. Keith Smith of the Oklahoma Surgery Center, and Caitlyn Long of Custodia Bank for those that are interested in the crypto industry. Um the event is on February 21st and if you uh visit mises.org events, you can find out more about that. And then rest of our event schedule um it's a big big year for us but our next two events is one is in Auburn Alabama. Actually it's a two for one. We've got our libertarian scholars conference on March 19th followed by the Austrian economics research conference. Uh Connor is going to be presenting a paper at LSC. I'm going to be presenting a sports economics paper at AERC. So if you're interested in those topics in particular uh you can check that out at the beautiful campus that we have in Auburn, Alabama. And then uh we look into April, California, the state of the state, everything wrong about what's going on in Sacramento. So if you're in the San Diego area on April 25th, hope you will check that out. Got many, many more planned, but I'm only going to read three today. >> I've I you know, I've got an event almost every single month this year. Uh >> make tour. >> Yeah, it's Well, we haven't had this many events in the past. Plus, we've brought back the the Libertarian Studies Conference. We've got Mises or Rothbard University >> coming up. I mean, there's just something going on. The only reason I'm not going to be at our events in May is because I've got kids going away to college. I got like a college freshman starting >> uh soon. So, I got a lot of that stuff. Um, but next year, >> the hopefully next year I could be at uh the next Rothbard U. But until all that stuff happens, let's talk about the Epstein files. Not so much Epstein. I don't know. I I can't believe this the the the content I'm seeing on Twitter just in terms of the videos, the emails, just Twitter is the absolute perfect medium for this sort of stuff where it's just the mockery of the powerful is so delightful to see. And it's just and a lot of it's just people I've hated of course for years, right? like Bill Gates and lots of people who are functioning in the uh right the expert intellectual class. All these people it turns out were complete sickos and monsters and at the very least they're hanging out with a sicko and a monster and don't seem to see any problem with it at all. Just illustrating how these people are so motivated by greed, avarice, a thirst for feeling important and all that stuff. all you got to do is be a billionaire, wave some money around, and suddenly these people don't care if you're having sex with teenagers and that sort of thing. So, I think this is a nice insight into uh how the the real ruling class functions and the sorts of people that circulate in those circles. Uh so, that's just kind of my initial impression. Uh though, as you started to see the info come in, what what do you think? >> Well, I think this is the most important story of the 21st century. Um, and part of it it's less about the the revelations within it because again I think if you've been following the story, none of the content I think surprises you, right? Like I mean this this was always the you know when people were talking about Epcol revelations that you expected to happen but it's the fact it actually got released that you have the documentation. I mean again this would be like you know if if if we found video of them staging the moon landing, right? This would be like if you if we found undisclosed uh photos of a CIA agent killing JFK, right? I mean this is one of the you know this this is the leading conspiracy theory of the modern era released. Um and obviously I mean you know big win for Thomas Massie getting it out there and and very interesting how that whole process happened. And the thing is like if if you look at it I mean some of the stuff on Twitter like it is worth noting right like you know you know there's like spam email you talking about like you know unsolicited email about like you know Joe Biden like being assassinated on like 2019th and we're under martial law and like you know typical QAnon stuff and like I don't think that really is part of the the grand reveal the Epcene stuff like you get I got get his his Xbox Live account banned was was pretty funny. So like there's there's tons of plenty of fluff within it. Um but the the actual revelations where you actually see the the the go, you know, between correspondence of Epstein and you know a variety of these figures, it it is just this this public reveal of indisputable evidence of what people have felt in their gut about the ruling elite and where that goes from here is is very very fascinating. Um but yeah, I mean just like it's incredible something like this was actually made to the public. Um, and this is just where we are right now. >> Yeah, Connor, I mean, I I saw your article on the topic, which we'll get into a little bit more detail of, but I mean, is it in terms of short-term and long term? Do you see any short-term effects from this or do you think this is more something that's just going to under continue to undermine people's confidence in the regime and the people in it just in the medium and longer term? >> That's a good question. And I think the the answer is kind of related. I think no, there's not going to be short-term action taken. And I think that is part of what's going to feed into this really really um desanctifying the the elite and our whole system here. So um I yeah I haven't really reflected on it in the same way though has maybe this is one of the biggest stories of the 21st century but I do think the significance of it is huge but it really comes down to that sort of desification of these people that work so hard to present themselves as these genius leaders. Um and yeah it's like just reading through even just like some of the stuff that's going around on Twitter. It's just tearing all that down. There's some pretty disgusting details uh coming out. And I think if if I'm not mistaken, um this is only like half of what they're going to release based on the law. I think there there's more coming. And I don't know. I don't know. May maybe they're uh saving the worst stuff for later or maybe they kind of tried to get out ahead of it. But um yeah, I don't know. It's just sort of it's a huge release. It was like over three million documents. I'm kind of waiting for, you know, I I'm not going through all of it myself. I'm relying on a lot of journalists and, you know, people on Twitter uh to do that. I did assume that the big names are going to be searched out first and we got a lot of that. We got a lot of big names um from around the world in this sort of initial batch, but there's still a lot more to go through. And so, I think things are going to be coming out from this one release for a good amount of time here. And if we get more, there's just there's no telling what more information is going to come out. But yeah, when you kind of take a step back, that's sort of the I I think the big dynamic here is that um there's just a lot of really shady things happening. And what people are noticing is that the official channels, they're not even interested in pretending to look like they're going to do something about that. They're they're going to even like start the process of bringing some people to justice. And that is really revealing and I think helps people understand the actual situation we're in. Yeah, there's been really no interest um from anybody like outrage. Oh, we're going to nail these people. We're going to start uh getting justice for these victims. Nothing. Hey, remember just a few years ago the whole me too, believe the women stuff? Well, haha, that was a joke. Obviously, no one in Washington actually believes that. Rape's only a problem if it can be somehow used to support your current candidate. And that's clearly how Washington is functioning right now. I Yeah, I wonder if this is the sort of thing and this the the way the regime is so unenthusiastic about talking about it and sweeping it under the rug. I know I can't help but thinking just because uh I've been obsessed with the issue of Chernobyl for years. Uh, I thought it was great when that um uh that miniseries came out like six years ago from HBO, which was pretty good. I thought u I guess just because it affected me at a young age. I remember when I was about 10 and flipping through uh a bunch of National Geographics that had pictures of uh the event and the the blown up uh power power plant and all that stuff. And I remember reading a caption that it was a because it was a picture of the firemen fighting the fire uh at Chernobyl and the caption said something about how all these guys are dead now. And that affected me a lot when I was 10. And so I remember reading that and so I of course watched the the documentary and everything and uh or the uh the miners which has been followed by other documentaries since because we're coming up by the way on the 40th anniversary of that. Uh but something that that always was interesting was how much did that affect the downfall of the Soviet Union, right? There was obviously no immediate effect. They didn't have elections the next year. There was really no way for the public to express any sort of outrage or anything like that. But decades later, people would talk a lot about how yeah, that was a major part of undermining the regime because what was the regime's reaction to it all along? ignore it, sweep it under the rug, make some minor tweaks, and then claim the whole problem was solved. And they found, of course, a small number of uh scapegoats that they could pin the whole thing on when when it was far more of a systematic problem. Uh so far, I haven't even seen anyone trying to get any scapegoats at work here in Washington for this issue. But I wonder if this is the sort of thing where 10 years from now you look back and you go, "Yeah, the uh the Epstein thing made a real difference in how people perceived the government after that." I hope that's true and I hope that certainly uh leads to that. Um though now though you had some thoughts that it might lead to some electoral change, the question of course would be would that actually lead to any structural change or anything like that. But nevertheless, that would be something. Uh we would know because they would the voters could express at least something through that. But so what do you think? >> Well, that's why in the short term on the most interesting aspect in terms of you know actionable, you know, political ramifications has been Trump's reaction to it uh before the the files were released. Right. You this was a I mean pretty much everyone that helped play a role with Thomas Massie on getting these files released have gotten nuked by Trump administration. Um, and you that includes, uh, you know, Marjgerie Taylor Green, right? Uh, uh, Nancy Mace. I mean, Nancy Mace has done some other self-sabotaging things in her own right. Like, I'm not trying to I'm not not here trying to defend her, but but like leading into the midterms, like how much is this really like because this is this is I think one of the interesting things about it is that this is not a partisan issue, right? Like this is not something that is easily digestible within a red versus blue dynamic, right? You know, there's you you've got both sides of the aisle. I mean Epstein, you know, himself, you know, if you look at the the donor elite just by the nature of who are the elite. I mean, it's a lot of Democrat donors and Bill Clinton, things like that. Obviously, there's the Trump uh, you know, friendly connection there and and and a lot of his, you know, friends and colleagues and whatever, you know, within the files, right? So, this it it doesn't work in your traditional left versus white, right, red versus blue dynamic. And I think that's one of the reasons why this is is it's such a weird thing for the political impact of it. But you know for the last you almost 20 years now what has been the number one term used in uh uh political trends right it's the p word it's populism you know it was the tea party revolution it was I mean to a certain extent Barack Obama's election it was Trump it was Bernie Sanders it was Occupy Wall Street it's etc etc etc and and this is the perfect story for the zeitgeist that previously existed right and that's why I think this is so important is because we we it's not that it's even changing it's not pivoting uh pre-existing views it's it is justifying pre-exist existing views. It is justifying the cynical nature. You know, we we've talked for, you know, many many episodes, right, about the just the collapse of faith in broader institutions, court, you know, police, you military, you across the board, right? Everything sees everything as political andor corrupt andor incompetent andor sinister. And this feeds into all of I mean, it's not just like when you look at the emails, it's not simply the sinister nature of it, but it's just and you the the the haphazard way that some of these things are discussed, right? It's it's just showing that the people that are ruling are not are not only not virtuous, they're not necessarily you all that uh you different, right, than than the rest of us. Obviously, their habits are, right? I'm not but like, you know, the way that they communicate and things like that. And so like you know this this feeds into these underlying you know >> massive cynicism of the entire operating machinery and obviously that's going to be pushed and pulled for different motivations in different ways right you got economic right you've got economic left you've got right-wing progressives that are doing their own sort of thing all under the banner of the system doesn't work right and so you know what what movement right is able to capitalize on this cynicism um and and where what that might lead to a future sure can go a variety of different ways. Um, but I think there's definitely uh, again, I'm usually not a Rod Dreer fan, but I want to shout out Bill Anderson who sent an article that that he wrote on this and kind of describing it as like a pre-revolutionary mood. And I think that very well captures what what I feel as the fallout from this because again, and again, I think that there's even um, you know, you even talk to like your dieh hard like MAGA MAGA people, right? And and they'll defend Trump, right? like and they'll they'll say like look like if if there's really anything you know a lot of the Trump stuff you know on the more salacious activities or like you know FBI tips and things like that and fine but I think there's a lot of frustration with how the entire administration has acted upon this and and I think that's you know so so even amongst the the MAGA faithful um and and that particular brand of populism there's a lot of frustration with the way that this particular story has happened because again like one of the major zeitgeist stories of the Trump movement has been you know Q anon sex trafficking all this sort of stuff and like you see an you see an order from Wayfair about like uh purchasing something for $9,000 and like that feeds into like exactly the sort of you know crazy dismissed sort of narratives that have been out there and and like Qanon world like it it hits every single uh uh you know populist skeptical conspiracy whatever term you want to use it hits every single uh uh group out there for the last, you know, 20 years. >> Well, and I like too how it's been helpful in taking down and embarrassing the the more pro- regime uh fake uh dissident MAGA influencer types, right? So, you remember a couple year or I guess it was less than two years ago, right? It was in this term those like Epstein files binders that the that the uh the administration was handing out to all these loser podcasters who were holding them up and act like they're going to bring justice uh libs of Tik Tok woman and that DC Drano guy just like just garbage people who have always just made excuses for the regime. And uh now of course they have very remarkably little to say about the actual Epstein files being released uh because it I guess it might embarrass some of their friends or they don't know how it's going to benefit them somehow. But that's been a humiliation. And then just in the larger media it's been great too. Something that people have been posting a ton of in recent days is an article from the Atlantic from a few years ago called here's the title uh the great fake child sex trafficking epidemic and uh it's by a woman named what Caitlyn Tiffany and it's it's the usual sort of media narrative. Oh, here's this thing you heard that makes powerful people look bad but it's all just a conspiracy. It's all just crazy right-wing people saying things and and it's specifically about the whole Epstein thing and how it's not true. Don't worry about it and everything's great. And so those people uh just look like complete fools as well. Now, I'm sure they'll continue to be very popular among their friends at cocktail parties, uh, you know, sipping Chardonnay or whatever with their degenerate family members and all of that, but the larger broader public continues to see the media for what it is, as well as uh the the Manhattan elite that controls so much of the media and what people get to see and just how awful these people are. So, that's that's delightful as well. Um, now I do want to go over though to some of your specific observations on this, uh, Connor because you had a nice article this week. Uh, the title is, "Everyone agrees our elites are terrible, so why are we stuck with them?" And that's a great question. So, uh, can you kind of tell us a little bit what your, uh, what what the article generally is about because yeah, I definitely think people should read it. Yeah, I it was sort of I mean it's a long article. I think it's the longest one I've written so far. It took me a while and I didn't focus too much on the specifics of the Epstein case. I tried to zoom back and I kind of tried to use it as a a way to potentially introduce people to some thinkers on uh various topics. I mainly focused at the beginning on uh elite theorists, especially the Italian elite theorist. So I was talking about Moscow and Paro and um uh Michelle's who who's I think is how you say that Michelle's um who came up with the iron law of oligarchy which is something that like I discovered pretty early on in my political journey which uh was kind of it's become a big part of my worldview. Um so I was kind of laying that out. But I I talked a little bit about propaganda, but basically there are all of these thinkers that have spent a lot of time trying to understand elite dynamics and just the fact that every single country um even you know the most totalitarian to the most democratic or you know libertarian have had some kind of elite non- elite divide there and uh it's that's clearly the system that we're living in. So people have thought long and hard about this exact kind of setup and I sort of wanted to to give people links and like show people books. So if they wanted to dig dig in on that um they could but at the same time I think sort of the the angle that uh the Mises Institute can kind of offer to this whole conversation. a thing that's often left out, I think, especially when you're reading into like those Italian elite theorists, and they're they're becoming a lot more popular, I've noticed, in the last few years, especially with kind of the the new right. I think I've noticed a lot of people read into them this idea that the state is this inherent part of like human nature, basically, that it's something that has always existed and always will exist. And I think that's incorrect. I mean, surprise, surprise, I'm Rothbartian here. Um, but I think if you actually dig into it, what at least uh my interpretation of a lot of the elite theory, they're kind of talking about like especially with the island of oligarchy, there will always be some, you know, kind of hierarchy that's just natural in any kind of social setting, any kind of organization. However, what we talk about when we talk about the state is something very different. It's this whole idea that the hierarchy or that the people at top at the top of the hierarchy operate in a different system of rules from everybody else. And I think if you kind of get back to this Epstein story, this what this is showing is that that is the system that we live under. People don't act like, you know, we're we're seeing in these emails unless they feel like they're completely immune from accountability. And really if you just zoom out and like look at just about any story we're uh talking about on this show just in general that's sort of like the fundamental aspect of our our system is that the elites feel that they are immune from accountability and in large part they are. And so that is specifically this kind of ingredient here that I think is very important for understanding like yes it's like what I said in the title it's becoming pretty uncontroversial to say now that you know we're run by these terrible people that at best are really bad at fixing our problems and at worst are these complete monsters but we can never seem to actually pivot away from them. elections don't actually uh like result in new people coming to power or at least different types of people coming to power. And like that is because of this whole idea that these people operate, you know, in in a different moral realm and that we h we have this obligation to basically obey them and we can't walk away from them if they end up being terrible. And so that that's sort of like that's the bigger picture story that I think this Epstein stuff kind of feeds into and is like a a small chapter and like a an unusual kind of revelation. But I I just sort of wanted to lay all that out almost like as an introduction to people that are just sort of starting to wake up to this. Um kind of giving them like almost like a reading list so they can kind of dive into this whole dynamic because it's incredibly important. Yeah, I kind of chuckled a little bit when I saw you were invoking Pareto because I was writing uh an article using them as well. I got I've got an upcoming uh lecture at uh the Journal of Libertarian Studies and so I've been Reiko is a big fan of these Italian elite theorists as was Rothbart. Rothbart thought there was a lot of insight there and liked Paro um and especially because of his connections to Molinari. A lot of people have tried to say that these guys and they misread them just as you say. They misread them saying that the state is this inherent thing that always has to exist. Uh states and elites are not the same thing. Uh and people have tried to pin the title of fascist on Parto specifically. Um because in he PTO could see some value in um in the Italian fascists back in the early 20s back before uh they started to do the terrible things that we associate uh with fascism and he died before um Mussolini really started to exercise any power. So you can't really say that he was a real fascist in any means but they try to claim him sometimes. But he was always rooted in Molinari and in hardcore radical liberals. All they were trying to do is really point out the problem in society of the fact that you have these governing elites and they're extremely difficult to get rid of because they create whole systems that protect themselves and also identifying what what they are, not just uh what they pretend to be, which is of course what do they pretend to be? They pretend to be these people who care about the will of the people. And oh, if an election doesn't agree with us, we willingly leave office and disappear and leave things to other people. That's not how that works at all. The the actual governing elite do not rotate in and out of power based on elections. And that's why there are restrictions on which parties get to actually have access to the upper levels of power. That's why there are restrictions within those parties as to who can actually run for office within those parties. and they're looser at the local level than at the than at the national level where where stuff really matters in terms of maintaining their power. But I think that it's it was timely for you to talk about those things because I think that really will help inoculate some people against maybe some disappointment that they might have when they see that nothing really is immediately happening as a result. I mean, this happens all the time and people all the time get converted from being free market pro- freedom people into just inactive cynics. They just give up and they stop saying or doing anything because they're like, "What's the point?" Because nothing ever changes because they expect things to change like in a few years outrages like this happen and they expect something to immediately change. They expect the regime to fall down. uh but it's it's not going to because the elites have constructed very durable very uh strong institutions designed designed to protect them and that's why you're you see so little enthusiasm where where would these prosecutions come from because the state simply the regime the system that's in place is designed to not do that sort of thing. It's designed to oppress everybody else to keep everybody else in line. Uh but as I see an increasingly popular uh line that people use is the purpose of the system is what it does. Uh the the system exists to protect the people in power. That's the purpose of the system. Uh you can say it's for other purposes but in practice it's clearly not. So I think we need to just take a more um rigorous uh and realistic view that the Italian elite theorists would have taken which is that okay let's try and really analyze what the situation is. take full into full account uh the institutions that the elites have erected around themselves and try to understand how this will affect things in the medium and longer term. And I do think it will in fact have an effect and I think that may even be expressed in elections uh in the shorter and midterm. But the larger question is just how will it undermine uh the regime overall? And I think it will. It's just that's not the sort of thing that immediately plays out. So we we still have a ways to go in terms of even venturing a guess as to I think what the larger longer term effects will be. And if you want to go even more obscure than Italian elite theorists, uh something that comes to mind to me is um with the anti-masonic party during the uh the Jonian era where you had a very similar similar situation arise, right? Like there was this public perception that Mason Lodge members were were beyond authority, right? That that they could kill, that they could, you know, rape and murder and do whatever they want. and that as long as you are part of the lodge, you were isolated from the consequences that anyone else would would would suffer. It was the perspective that there's deep embedded um you know that this is deeply embedded within the political elite. It it it manifests itself in an actual political party and John John Quincy Adams was a an anti-Mason member um for a brief period of time after the presidency. Obviously never won an election, you know, nationally. It was never a nationalally, you know, powerful movement, but it ended up being an important uh part of the political zeitgeist that the other parties tried to work in their structure and and it became, you know, a a a a part of is something that had to be be reckoned with and and I could see something similar emerging from from this. Um, and the interesting thing is that again, I think a lot of that was kind of behind the was an element of the mega coalition. Um, and I I think you're again that's it's you know what comes next after this I think is is really fascinating from that because I think it's it's open season right and there's there's plenty of people on the left that are going to try to co-op these sort of things you know the the you the major parties themselves right national leadership of these parties none of them know how to handle those particularly well um but like having that as like a a a major national part of the political conversation I think does manifest itself over time and we've seen that play out in a variety of ways Right. Like it's it's so clearly not going to at least in the near term um become like go into the partisan mold because like you said this is a bipart like there was a very bipartisan presence in the files that were released. And so it's a lot more of like this and it's not really about the elections. It's about that what people are telling themselves and how people understand how our current system works. And that of course is really important to the regime. I mean, it is notable that the um Trump administration is really struggling with the the optics here. I mean, I think just cuz they were so clearly trying so hard to prevent these from being released and then, you know, they they lose that and now they're trying to spin it as they're the most transparent administration in history. And it's just like so obviously uh a political loss for them, but they haven't really like it doesn't seem like they've settled on their strategy for for combating this. Well, that that's what makes it so interesting is that the reason why this was such a major point of leverage for Trump was precisely because it was a campaign issue that they ran on, >> right? And so like that was part of the broader packet and obviously you surprise surprise like you know campaign promises go go go unanswered or explicitly acted and contrary to um right but but like this was a a point this was one of the the go-to applause lines at a turning point event or or you know at um you know at a Trump rally was talking about release the Epstein files right you know you have Donald Trump's sons and whatever like everyone was talking about this like this was part this was this was not it's not this was was just out in the ether and not you This is something they steered into and so steering into it and then handling it the way they have made it the issue that you made it this particular potent political grenade. I mean again I don't again if I don't understand like that calculation there like you know you catch a car and then you know what are you going to do with it? But >> but like that that is an additional factor to it and it also goes to the demand the public has you know for this sort of stuff. So it's it's it's a you know we'll see what comes next. And what's interesting too is I mean it's early but it looks like like from my perspective if I was going to be like a strategist for the regime trying to help them weather the storm like the proper thing to do is to crack down on some people and like what we're seeing in the UK is that um I guess it was Kier Star had a it was the ambassador to the US I forget his name um was revealed in these files to be pretty close with Epste and then I guess there was some um indication that he shared like secret financial data about the UK and the EU. So there might there might be a whole like insider trading thing happening, but they're just they they're kicking this guy, I think, out of the House of Lords. They're basically um going after him. And I think in Slovakia, I want to say there was like an official that was appeared in the files and he got thrown out of the government essentially. Like that's the smart thing to do. It reminds me um of I think it was in late 2023. you remember when that whole thing came out about uh Bob Mendez, the senator, and basically I don't remember all the details off the top of my head, but he was essentially using his position in the government to help benefit some uh you know, well-connected people and the country of Egypt, I think it was. Um and it's just like that is how our entire system works. It's all about essentially courting people in power to benefit yourself or, you know, your country uh or whatever. like that that's our whole system is designed to basically carry that out. But he did it in ways that technically broke some of the rules and so they had to essentially uh throw him in prison as a result of that. And that that's because like the scam is only really able to continue when they have these rules that are really like it's almost like a ritual that they go through. They like, you know, technically do everything above board and so they can say it's no longer corruption. um and kind of pass everything off as if as if it's like completely legit. But to do that and to keep that going, you really have to like slam down hard on anybody that breaks any of those rules. And so the fact that they're not doing that with any of this Epstein stuff and like of course like people are pointing out and I think it's fair like there it's not like there's explicit crimes that we can point to here uh in in these files. It's more like there are so many smoking guns here. There are so many things that would like in any other circumstance obviously lead to an investigation or at least like official channels starting the process of hey we need to look further into this and none of that is happening. And so that really starts to kill the whole illusion that oh it's okay like whatever they're doing is legitimate because they're following these rules or whatever they're not even at least as of now trying to do that in the same way that at least the I mean the UK and I guess Slovakia are doing it. So, it could be interesting to compare the different government uh responses to this, but it just seems like they're making a complete and total mistake, which I'm cool with. >> Well, I think just uh what you said was a lot of it is just impressions that people are getting of it, right? There's in many cases it's not well here's a specific crime we can point to but it again it just shows the the sort of people we're dealing with here and the way they talk to each other and just their total disregard for decency and decent human beings. And uh I I think we we really need to keep doing the most we can to get people just to have an emotional reaction to the ruling class that is one of disdain and disgust because we've got still so many people who are just desperate to support and like and idolize and really just assume the best from people in positions of power. And every time you do that, you just end up with uh just the worst because they will absolutely abuse that trust they get from people every chance they can get. And I mean, you just see it in say the way that so many people who proclaim themselves to be, oh, I you know, the government can't do anything right. I don't believe in the government. Um I'm skeptical of every I'm a freethinker. And then when you finally like really when they're faced with the actual opposition of the other side, they always end up reflexively becoming emotionally attached to their side and defending their politicians. And so they they don't really have this uh detached view of things at all. And you could look at it like really democracy in America. I think the best metaphor is it is it's right you you occasionally get the chance to vote for prison guard A or prison guard B. Right? This is not a referendum on which one's a good person, which one's a bad. They're all terrible people with the extremely rare exceptions like a Ron Paul or Thomas Bassie, right? Like the one out of a thousand. And and yet you've got people acting like this is a choice between delightful person or bad person. The reality is we live in this giant open air prison that is the United States where you're essentially slaves and all of your property is really their property and you get a chance every now and then to vote on the guy you think will beat you less and steal from you less. I don't see anything wrong with that. Uh, and I don't think it means democracy really um is is a an act where you endorse the government's legitimacy. I don't think that's true. I don't think people are are wrong for voting necessarily. Uh but until people come around to that idea and start taking that that more that darker view of the regime, they're just going to keep attaching themselves emotionally to the people who they decide are their guys. And I am hoping that this Epstein stuff really helps drive home about like if you're if you're dealing with people kind of in those circles, you should just assume they're awful until proven otherwise. >> Well, but another component to that though is that you know, as far as I can tell, there's not a lot of members of Congress, right, in the Epstein files. And I think one of the points to take away from that is that they're just not important enough to be in there, right? Like like you know, I'm sure there's plenty of members of Congress that'd be perfectly happy to to to have been at at Epstein's Island, but they just aren't important to it. That's another aspect of it when we think about like the way American democracy really really works. Like most members of Congress, I think are like pretty decent people. Like, you know, there's plenty of them that are are I'm sure extremely compromisable. I know that they're extremely compromisable in the way they act. I can remember like, you know, some of the stuff that came up with, you know, some of Madison Cawthorne's u statements a few years ago. But but the reality is that Congress really is just not that important of a cog to really be considered amongst the elite when it really comes down to it. Um and and and of course the the global dynamic of this is worth mentioning because I guarantee you that there's somebody who's listening to this on YouTube who's already typed in the comments that you know you're kind of missing the big story here which is that you know a big aspect of you know the FC files is his connections to to foreign governments right and the compro and the ability to get compromising uh uh dirt on a variety of public figures um you know big movers and shakers and the way that that can be exploited by uh uh you know foreign governments as well and and whether you want to say that you know Epste was working is for Israel or he was working for Russia or you know working for maybe all the above whatever. Um I I I you know that goes to the point that this is this is much broader than simply politics as we understand it you know as we're taught in in middle school that there is very much these these global circles of gen of of genuine elites that are you know very rarely going to ever appear on a ballot um but have massive outsized impact on global affairs and the intermingling of all these social circles there. I definitely wanted to hit that that component of it because I'm I'm sure there's some listeners who are angry we have not already. >> Well, that's extremely important and and in my article um which I was just independently reading a bunch of paro uh on my own which was titled why America's two-party system will never threaten the true political elites. It's as you say though members of your average member of Congress they're junior members in all of that. They don't they're not the ones who decide who gets to run, who gets uh a shot at being in the upper circles of power. They're not valued advisors. Uh that's why, as you say, right, who are the who are the people who get mentioned in here? They're like Bill Gates type people. They're Harvard professors people, the people who are in and out of all these different administrations determining what the next generation is going to think and say. And they're the thought molders. Um they're the propagandists. They're the ones who are asked, "Oh, should this person be allowed to be in this position of power?" They're in many ways gatekeepers as well. And and that was the point Paro made is that yeah, the people who are actually allowed in political parties allowed to circulate through the government, right? They're they're approved. They're they're deemed to not be capable of taking down the regime or to even want to do so. They're they're not they're not interested in that level of radicalism. There are of course power there are um interest groups, political parties and such that are made of true counter elites as paro would put it. People who genuinely want to tear down the regime. People who might even be a real threat to it. Those people are not allowed in power. Those people are not allowed to form any sort of majority government. And so they're they're out and they're they're just not a concern. And so obviously you're not going to see those people uh hanging out with Epstein. But even some of these junior members in the in the regime who are the elected government, they don't even warrant that uh either. But it it is fun though just to see uh for example something that that uh I've been thinking about is for the first time I saw I don't even know if it was in the files but it's now been making the rounds is a video of Epstein talking in some interview. >> Uh and Oh yeah, it was Steve Bannon. That's where I am. And and he was asking him a few different questions and and Epstein, who of course was always trying to show you what a smart area fellow he is, started talking about how writing is bad and that we shouldn't teach children to write because it makes you think like too rigidly or something. And then he said, "And that's why Plato and Aristotle never wrote anything." which you don't have to be beyond a college freshman to know that Plato and Aristotle wrote a lot of stuff. Maybe he was thinking of Socrates or something, but I mean, what a right? And these are this is what we're supposed to think are these are the smart guys. They're in positions of power because they're such geniuses because they're more clever. They're more clever in one area. They're more clever at manipulating people and getting into positions of power and they're they're good at organizing institutions to serve themselves. But this idea that they have some sort of virtue, some sort of knowledge, some sort of culture, completely untrue. And the more we see of these people, the more obvious that becomes. >> Well, speaking of Epstein video clips, one one of my favorite clips that came out was him explaining um fractional reserve banking. And I was like, "Okay, okay, wait, wait a minute. Let let him cook." And he was talking about like just like how how important this is. The last time I had that sort of um you know had that sort of reaction was was watching the return of the golden nar the ISIS uh economic propaganda video and it also had like the same explanation of like fractional reserve banking and I was like I don't know what to do with this but but here here are two very evil things talking speaking my language on fractional reserve banking. So I was like okay this is >> it's like that onion headline that always goes around about like the person you disagree with made an excellent point. Yeah. Or the the worst person in the world made an excellent point. >> Yes. happens a lot. >> ISIS victories would have been good for gold. But >> there was also references to the Austrian School of Private Equity in there, which is that's a it's a term I hadn't heard before, but they were talking about us about the Austrian school. But >> well, I've seen confirmed Ron Paul hater. >> Yes, that's true. >> Gee, what a shock, right? I >> Well, I mean, I don't know. Do you if we just had to create if you had to pick somebody who you think was made to look the worst or maybe is going to is going to look especially bad as a result of this. I don't know. Do any names pop into your minds? Anyone specifically? I think uh one that stands out to me and I was actually I was going to bring it up um because it just feeds exactly into what we were just talking about. Everything we're talking about how like it's it's all these elections. it's all fake. That the the divide between the Democrats and Republicans that just being an illusion that they stoke. I think one of the best uh like thinkers that has at least helped me understand that dynamic was Nam Chosky who was very much involved in or included in these files. He he's the one who came up with that quote. I don't remember the exact um phrasing but essentially that the regime they try to you know they have these two parties with um very very similar views and then they try to stoke vicious vicious debates within that you know super small uh corridor of allowable opinion as as Tom Woods says which is so true I mean it's so like cartoonish how the fights happening in Congress over like the top marginal tax rate being like 39% versus 39 it's 37.5% and they'll just act like this is you know like the like we have the extreme right-wingers versus these like communists and it's just so like obviously not true and Trumpsky like did a lot of I think woke a lot of people up to that dynamic and so the fact that he was not just featured in it but had a long email to Epstein written in 2019 like basically when all this stuff was already coming out giving him advice as to how to like weather the media storm is um I think just terrible. for his brand there. So, um well, like nobody looks good in this like he like this is just such a huge departure from sort of like where he was in the minds of his uh fans and followers that it I just think it just destroys his reputation. >> Yeah, I think that's that's a good answer right there. >> I don't know. I've kind of enjoyed just basically the scientific elite uh showing up in all of these photos. uh Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, I don't know if he counts as scientific elite, but certainly tries to think of himself that way. Uh and uh and Bill Gates, of course, who's tried to make himself into be some sort of scientist, I guess. Uh just they're popping up everywhere in this stuff. And and that's who I think you need to look to as to okay, who's being uh who are they trying to cultivate into their group? Who are they trying to bring in? who are they uh who are they trying to be pals with? And it's a lot of those people, a lot of the people out there who are telling you that they're the scientific expert class. I guess Hayek would love this, right? to see the I mean this is this is sort of in a certain way really feeding into his theory about scientism and this idea that we're replacing the old intellectuals with this new scientific elite that uh we'll you know get rid of all of our old moral thinking and all of that and now we're just we're purely scientific now which was a certain strain of thought in the 19th century uh but certainly really gained a lot of ground in the 20th and obviously these guys uh have no problem participating in a bunch of degenerate garbage and love to hang out with people like Epstein. So, uh, and I think it just further nails home also, I mean, you you see all these pictures that is the Clintons with Stephen Hawking, right? That is the Clintons with Bill Gates, right? They're they're if they're Washington elite, all their kids go to the same schools together, they go to the same cocktails parties together. If they're not from the same country or not living in the same city, well, then they're hanging out uh with Epstein together. So these these tight uh social bonds between these these elites quote unquote um is is very interesting and and uh so I think a lot that gives some fodder to some people the next time that uh you have something like COVID and you've got Bill Gates coming out and telling everybody what to do and how to run their own lives. I think that'll be a good thing for that. That's for sure. I don't know. Throw anyone specific that you want to trash on for a minute? Oh, >> I mean it's it's I mean Chsky I think I really like the chops going I mean the thing about B Gates is that like he he a lot of that I think was kind of already priced in um just because of you know like he got divorced over the Epstein stuff already and I mean actually seeing the details you know in an Epstein email and not you know not like one of these tips things is is is pretty vivid there. Um, but to the elite question though as as well, like it is interesting that and and I'm not trying to I don't want to paint an overly broad brush um in terms of of things, but it's just it's it's I think it's very vivid where one of the the meta stories of the last few years was a narrative about how kind of an an old guard type of elite, think traditional Wall Street, was being replaced by a new elite, think Silicon Valley. and how within the files you find emails with Teal and and Elon Musk and things like that. Again, I'm not, you know, I think one of my favorite emails was like uh Epstein emailing Elon saying, "Oh, you know, the UN is in town." Oh, this and this this is to a broader point. He's like, "Oh, yeah, that the UN's in town. A lot of delegates are here. Like, you you should come to the you should come to the the mansion." And and and Elon's like, "Well, you know, I've got too many too much work to do. Like, I don't want to hang around, talk to some diplomats." And then Elon and then Epstein responds like, "No, I'm talking about young cute girls." And and for one, like it goes to the fact that you being in town means uptick of of Epstein fodder. Um, but that's also just kind of like like Elon being autistic there. Um, and but but again, it's just it's that the I think this feeds just this larger perception of of cynicism about the entire thing is, you know, the common point of, you know, old and new. you could find a lot of those same personalities within in these same files. Um, and I think that that goes to, you know, some of the the deeper route that's out there. >> Well, I mean, just on larger issues, I mean, there before we were kind of deciding what to talk about today, um, I mean, the the issue of the perennial issue of a war with Iran keeps coming back. I mean, and this kind of leads to the question, is is this going to be a problem before the midterms? Is this going to be a problem for Trump's agenda or can it can he just kind of be muddling through and keep doing the same thing he's always been doing using the same methods with war with Iran, using the same methods with the Fed chairman? Uh is he going to have to change gears at all or is it just going to be more of the same at least uh going forward for the for the foreseeable future? >> Well, I did notice that the Ayatollah was not in the Epstein files. So, you know, credit to him. >> Shocking. Um >> that would have been >> I mean I I don't think Yeah. I mean and and I mean I think I I don't how much this I I think the only thing in in terms of policy that this could impact um is you know given how bad the handling of it was by the DOJ, right? You know is Pam Bondi fired between now and the midterms. is is is it seen as a necessity um to build credibility to make her a particular scapegoat from the administration for this situation? Right. That's something I could see. Um but the problem the broader problem is though is that you know I think we're we're exactly where we we've been for quite some time where I expect a lot of the action from a a policy perspective to be on things that Trump can directly control because Congress is Congress. Again, not a body relevant enough to be that well represented in these files. And so that that naturally leads itself to doing more on the foreign policy side of things to project action and and a variet change and and variety of things. Um and and what that manifests itself, you know, from the the edicts of uh the state department and the the department of war and and whatever is going to be interesting, you know, is is you know, I think the the chances of Cuba, right, are are on, you know, go up. Um you know, and trying to find more wins on the table or perceived wins on the table. Again, the Iran situation is going to be very interesting. you know, do are they able to get the some some grand compromise on, you know, the nuclear program over there or whatever. But I I I think in general, um, this is a trend that I don't think is directly affected by the Epstein files themselves, but more this broader trend where, you know, Congress is dysfunctional. Um, you know, what Trump can do on itself is is where they're going to focus their attentions to try to, you know, project that, hey, look, we're actually doing a lot more than the media is telling us. >> All right. Well, with that, we'll go ahead and wrap up this episode of Power and Market Podcast. Thank you, Tho. Thank you, Connor, for joining me today. Yeah, if uh you're interested in this sort of thing, be sure and go to our website, mises.org. That's mises.org. If you want to know about our upcoming events, click on events. But uh also, you can get daily or weekly emails just to be notified when any of this new content comes out. That's up at the top. Just click on subscribe. So, thank you everyone for listening out there. We'll be back next time with more. So, we'll see you then. All right.