Millenial Investing - The Investor's Podcast Network
Oct 21, 2024

Fortune’s Formula: Make Favorable Bets on the Stock Market w/ Shawn O’Malley (MI374)

Summary

  • Investment Themes: The episode emphasizes using the Kelly formula to size positions based on edge and highlights why equities outperform bonds over long horizons.
  • Options Arbitrage: Ed Thorp’s probabilistic pricing, shorting overpriced options, and delta hedging are detailed as a repeatable edge exploiting market mispricings.
  • Convertible Arbitrage: Mispriced convertible bonds hedged with equity shorts are showcased, including examples with bond upside, coupon protection, and bankruptcy seniority.
  • Market Efficiency: The discussion challenges strict efficient markets, noting persistent mispricings due to limits to arbitrage like liquidity and transaction costs.
  • Risk Management: The Kelly framework minimizes risk of ruin via proportional betting; a half-Kelly approach is presented to reduce volatility with modest return trade-offs.
  • Companies Mentioned: Apple (AAPL), Meta (META), AT&T, Hewlett-Packard, Teledyne (TDY), and Chipotle (CMG) are referenced as historical or illustrative examples, not explicit picks.
  • Market Outlook: Long-term stock investing is favored for higher expected returns versus government bonds, assuming disciplined reinvestment and prudent sizing.
  • Opportunities and Risks: Strategy success depends on having a genuine information edge, active hedging, and psychological tolerance for volatility despite theoretically optimal models.

Transcript

(00:00) concentrated bets are not appropriate  when you don't know anything that everyone else   doesn't already know the real limiting factor  with the Kelly formula is that betters rarely   have a special Advantage he realized though that  there's at least one place you could always make   favorable bets the stock market and the stock  market risk-seeking investors are rewarded for   embracing higher uncertainty on long time periods  Government Bond investors do not earn the highest   returns because they're not taking on as much risk (00:26) historically stocks which are riskier   than bonds and aggregate generate higher  average returns over almost every decade   plus [Music] timeline hello before we dive  into the video be sure to click that subscribe   button so you never miss an episode show us  some love by giving a thumbs up and sharing   your thoughts in the comments your support  really means everything to us so today I'll   be discussing Fortune's formula which is a book  about the so-called Kelly formula named after the   gun toing Texas physicist John L Kelly (00:59) Jr together with mathematician   Claud Shannon who is known as a father of the  digital age and whose IQ rivaled Einstein's   the two men discovered the scientific formula  for getting rich while working at Bell labs   in 1956 in short they applied a technique  called the science of information Theory   which is effectively the basis for computers  and the internet to the problem of earning   as much money as possible with the Kelly  formula in hand as it is now known Shannon   joined up with another MIT mathematician and (01:27) legendary stock investor Ed Thorp to   try their hand at winning in in Las Vegas it  worked and they quickly realized that the stock   market offered an even bigger channel to profit  from using the Kelly formula in the following   years Ed Thorp would enjoy Immaculate returns  with his hedge fund Princeton Newport Partners   while Shannon's returns would be quite Sellar  to outpacing Warren Buffett again this may all   sound too good to be true but there is a dark side  to the Kelly formula premise around exploding an  (01:53) Insider's Edge by the end of the episode  I think you'll know what I mean still the Kelly   formula is a valuable tool for any investor  and the story May lend hope to those aiming   to beat the market but I don't want to get  too far ahead of myself let's start back a   bit with Claude Shannon Claude Shannon is by all  accounts a genius that really understates things   though for many who knew him they considered  it an insult to compare Shannon's intelligence   with Einstein's not because Einstein was so (02:18) superior but because Shannon was and   just because you have not heard of him does  not mean that he hasn't fundamentally change   the world you live in to try and understand  Shannon's impact on the world is like trying   to measure the impact of inventing the alphabet  instead of the alphabet for spoken language   Shannon devised the language to be spoken by  computers that is binary coding the world of   ones and zeros he described how this could be  captured by electric circuits where the presence   of an electric impulse marked to one and no (02:45) impulse marked to zero this basic   system of coding could be used to convey words  audio and video and really all information that   we communicate digitally shennon is considered  among the two or three individuals deserving   of the most credit for having invented  the electric computer yet this is not   even his great greatest achievement shanon's  Master composition is his information Theory   which provides the backbone for the whole of  modern technology from satellite Communications   to DNA sequencing and virtual reality (03:11) much of the modern world owes thanks to   Shannon he accomplished these breakthroughs while  working at the aveng guard research institution   Bell Labs the lab traces its roots to Alexander  granbell who used a reward granted to him by the   French government for inventing the telephone  to fund his own laboratory around this time   Bell Telephone Company was formed and several  years later merged with American Telephone   and Telegraph company or as we know it today AT&T  over the following decades a network of Engineers  (03:38) supporting Bell labs and its Research  into telecommunications emerged and would become   integral to America's wartime efforts during World  War II to gain technological advantages over the   access powers Bell Labs have become one of the  most prolifically inventive institutions in human   history building everything from the first lasers  and transistors to the First Solar batteries and   hearing aids and even helping cover the origins of  the universe in today the prestigious group still   maintains 10 worldwide locations in places like (04:06) Shanghai Finland Cambridge Munich and   New Jersey over the years Bell Labs has  accumulated an impressive 10 Nobel Prize   Awards and five touring awards for contributions  to computer science programming languages like   C++ can actually be traced back to B Labs so  batt Labs has been an exclusive and impactful   institution to say the least its sensitive  work has also long been the subject of great   Intrigue when Claud Shannon first joined B Labs  he began work on what was called Project X in   an Endeavor with enough scientific pedigree (04:39) to rival the Manhattan Project of   World War II which created the atom bomb Project  X was a joint undertaking with Britain's code in   Cypher school and it included not only Shannon but  other inspiring Minds like Alan Turing namesake of   the Turing award and the Turing test they were  building what was the first wireless phone and   it was of Paramount importance during World  War II Allied Leaders sought ways to openly   communicate with each other without fear  that their messages could be intercepted   by the Nazis B Labs built such systems (05:08) for President Roosevelt in the   US and for Winston Churchill to enable safe  and seamless transatlantic Communications   using the onlyn encryption technology that  cannot be cracked called the one-time pad   Shannon's job was to prove in fact that the  system truly was impregnable enabling Allied   Leaders to speak freely this experience with  studying Communications technology would be   foundational for Shannon leading him ultimately to  his realization that information could be stored   in binary code with ones and zeros in 1948 shanon (05:38) published a paper titled a mathematical   theory of communication submitting him as  a founding father of information Theory and   binary language to understand information Theory  we need to understand what Computing was like in   the early to mid 20th century according to Bell  lab's website quote the term Computing as it is   used today does not reflect the process that  existed in the first half of the 20th century   in the 19 1920s to 1930s Computing meant using  mechanical or electrical devices for finding   numerical solutions to math problems at (06:07) Bill Labs it also meant designing   and building complex telephone switching  systems automated switching systems were   similar to general purpose computers but  without programmability human computers as   they were called were people often women  who used and operated these machines to   find mathematical Solutions via carefully  crafted procedures what we call programming   today building on his understanding  of cryptography shannan argued in his   paper on information theory that human language  was largely redundant and much of it could be  (06:34) condensed down into simpler systems  evidently he was right nothing is simpler   than ones and zeros Shannon argued that all  Communications could be thought of in the   same way whether that be radio television  or telephone all messages were at risk of   inaccurate delivery because of noise to Shannon  the key to overcoming noise and therefore   ensuring a reliable message was the information  contained within the message Shannon wrote that   the semantic meaning of a message was a to its  transmission a message should be conceived as a  (07:03) sequence with statistical properties  it is the message of Statistics that could be   captured in its coding minimized to allow for  Effective transmission reaction to Shannon's   work was immediate and far-reaching wir line and  wireless communication would be revolutionized   by information Theory and other Industries such  as digital storage would primarily be based on   it with information Theory we could move from the  world of human and mechanical computers tirelessly   laboring for days to solve a single problem to the (07:31) electronic computers of today that can   solve complex problems in a fraction of a second  while information Theory made shaneon an aist   celebrity in academic circles that Fame hardly  translated into daily life or he remained in   obscurity from what little I know of information  Theory I know I'm absolutely not doing it any   justice here I'm greatly oversimplifying but  if you do care to go deeper into Shannon's work   I'll provide some links in the show notes but  that's enough on Shannon for now let's turn to  (07:57) one of the story's other protagonists and  one of my favorite profor to study Ed Thorp as   they say a child's delayed development of speech  can signal a giftedness for mathematical thinking   that proved true for Thorp who would not utter  his first word until he was 3 years old 6 months   from that first word thorb could reportedly carry  conversation almost like an adult could count to 1   million and had a virtually photographic memory  a few years later he'd win free ice cream by   betting a grocer that he could tally customers (08:24) bills faster than a calculator and he   won Thorp like sheenan possessed an exceptional  mind with an IQ estimated between 170 and 200 and   the world is quite fortunate to have Thorp still  walking Among Us at 92 years old Thorp was for a   Time transfixed on beating Blackjack although it  was once considered a woman's game to distract   them while their husbands played craps Thorp  tried to break down the gamees probabilities   which was something nearly impossible before the  rise of modern computers given the vast amount of  (08:51) possibilities Thorp realized that analyses  of the odds in blackjack usually made the simple   mistake of assuming that the odds of drawing  a giving card were the same in every deal   yet if a dealer pulls Three Aces and has enough  remaining cards to not need to reshuffle the deck   the next deal has only one possible Ace since  Aces give players an advantage over the house   then fewer available Aces would skew the  odds against Thorp signaling to him when   not to bet aggressively during a summer  break in 1959 at MIT where he served as  (09:20) a mathematics professor Thorp taught  himself the early programming language Fortran   and programmed mit's Mainframe computer to assist  with his calculations of the odds in blackjack   one of his key findings was that five cards made  a bigger difference in favor of the house than   any other rank since they were disadvantageous to  players by simply keeping track of how many five   cards had been played he could dramatically tilt  the odds in his favor while playing Thorp hoped   to publish this finding in academic journals yet (09:47) the only member of the National Academy of   Sciences who was a mathematician that could  submit the paper was none other than Claude   Shannon thorp's goal of beating the odds  in blackjack is what would unify these two   Brilliant Minds and thorp's 1962 book beat the  dealer would actually spur casinos to rewrite   the rules of blackjack so the house once again  had an advantage but what would really Kindle   the fire between them was another idea from Thorp  one premised on predicting how balls might fall   in roulette Thorp had previously fantasized (10:14) about building a machine that could   predict where a ball might fall on the roulette  wheel once it was spun since casinos continued   taking beds for several seconds after a ball  had dropped the two would design something of   a wearable computer that could calculate in  real time where approximately the ball would   land this was was nothing like the wearable  computers produced today by Apple and meta   but it was quite effective at beating the  odds and roulette it would be worn with one   wire running into the shoe to track timing of (10:39) the roulette wheel while another would   run up to an earpiece for receiving the audio-  based results with the computer itself simply   strapped around the waist during their test  Thorp and shenan found that the computer gave   them a 44% Edge in roulette more than enough  to make it worth a while roughly the size of   a pack of cigarettes the computer itself had  12 transistors that allowed where to time the   Revolutions of the ball on a roulette wheel and  determine where it would end up wires LED down   from the computer to switches in the toes of each (11:08) shoe which let the wearer covertly start   timing the ball as it passed a reference Mark  another set of wires L up to an earpiece that   provided audible output in the form of musical  cues eight different tones represented octants   on the roulette wheel when everything was in  sync the last Stone herd indicated where the   person at the table should Place their B  but having an edge doesn't Translate to   optimal success you must know how to balance  risk and reward with each bet to achieve the   maximum return on your money Shannon and Thor had (11:37) cracked the code on putting the odds in   their favor in both Blackjack and roulette  yet you can still lose money with a modest   statistical advantage in other words you might  be able to theoretically win over time with the   odds in your favor but in practice if you  wipe out your total wealth you're done you   have nothing left to bet even a great gambler's  lifetime earnings will swing wildly which is   undesirable the question then is knowing when to  bet and how much to bet given the probabilities   at hand that way catastrophic losses (12:05) could be avoided while preserving   a steadier uptrend and accumulated earnings  of course before we can answer that we need   to introduce one other protagonist into today's  story that is John Kelly namesake of the Kelly   formula or the formula for earning great  fortunes as some say born to a petroleum   Boom Town in 1923 Kelly spent four years flying  for the Naval Air Force during World War II then   do his undergraduate and graduate work at the  University of Texas where he wrote his thesis   on the variation of elastic wave velocity with (12:34) water content and sedimentary rocks   which he hoped would prove useful for the oil  industry this and his later PhD on a similarly   esoteric topic earned Kelly the attention  of bell labs and he got a job there their   colleagues would rate him as the smartest person  at Bell Labs rivaled only by Claud Shannon Kelly   sought an answer to the question that Shannon  and Thorp bumped up against in blackjack and   roulette that is what is the optim amount to  bet in a given situation betting everything   for example is not a viable strategy even with an (13:05) Insider tip on a horse race there is still   some uncertainty and if you bet everything you  have on every inside tip eventually you'll be   wiped out but not betting enough can mean  letting an opportunity slip out of your   hands better wants to make the most of their  insights and compound their returns and much   the same way an investor would think about  it success should not be measured in dollars   then but in percentage gains with Kelly's  formula it is possible to compound returns   at a desirable rate without out going broke (13:31) it's truly a have your cake and eat   it to sort of thing to devise this formula for  maximizing returns and beding Kelly studied   param Mutual betting at horse races in the US and  Japan betters would often set the odds themselves   here by adding up a wi wager for every race  deducting a track take for expenses and taxes   and distributing the remaining payout here's  an example of how the odds and payouts might   work excluding the tracks take if one six of  all the money bet in a horse race went to a   single horse called Smarty Jones then all those (14:00) who bet on smarty would earn a six times   payout from their Wagers as the winnings would  only be split among those who bet on smarty in   odds terms this would usually be expressed  by saying that smarty is paying out 5 to1   if you bet $10 on smarty you'd win $50 plus  the original 10 you bet for a total of $60   one simple approach Kelly devised was to take  the pot of money you plan to bet and split it   between every force in a race this essentially  Hedges both your downside and upside because   you're guaranteed to win but are also (14:29) guaranteed to take losses from   the losing horses in practice this approach  doesn't work because of the tracks take that   is the house takes a cut of every bet a feet  of play that eats away at your cash pile even   if you're winning back some of your bets on  the Other Extreme you could imagine betting   everything on a single horse if you somehow had  a guarantee that that horse would win if you were   100% sure a horse would win it would be foolish  not to bet anything but 100% of your money on   that horse which is a strategy with zero (14:58) diversification do you you see   any resemblance to investing yet if you don't  know what you're doing going as Diversified as   possible and reducing fees to middleman is your  best bet and as your confidence grows the more   appropriate it becomes for you to take a less  Diversified approach there are no guaranteed   bets and markets or gambling but the amount you  should bet mirrors or conviction if you're 90%   sure a horse will win thanks to some Insider  tip then you should bet 90% of your bankroll   on that horse and split the remaining 10% (15:26) on all the others as diversification   we see this all the time with great investors  Warren Buffett Charlie Munger and many others   are well known for ticking concentrated bets  on companies they might only have five 10 or   20 companies in their entire portfolio but  that's not as risky as it seems because their   conviction in those bets is much higher  they may not have Insider info but they   may have Superior analytical skills giving  them such conviction obviously nothing in   the real world is a sure thing it is up to you to (15:53) assess the odds of a bet or an investment   and act accordingly this led Kelly to devise  the Kelly formula or fortunes formula per the   title of the book John Kelly's formula says  to wager x% of your bank rooll on a favorable   bet Edge over odds The Edge is how much you  expect to win on average assuming you could   make this wager over and over with the same  probabilities it's a fraction because the   profit is always in proportion to how much you  wager odds measures the profits if you win but   odds are set by market forces what everyone (16:25) else believes is likely to happen   that's true in both financial markets and in  gambling markets these beliefs may often be   wrong and in fact for a better following the  Kelly formula they have to be wrong otherwise   the formula won't work that is to say the Kelly  formula is an approach based on the fundamental   belief that the odds for something are mispriced  if you're a subscriber to the efficient markets   hypothesis and the idea that market prices  perfectly reflect all available information   then you have no use for the Kelly formula (16:53) the Kelly formula is for those who   know the true odds better than anyone else  in gambling maybe it's because you have an   inside tip on a horse or maybe because you  have a wearable computer telling you where   the roulette ball will fall in investing you  might have a superior understanding of a company   compared to the broader Market maybe you used  to work there or you have firstand experience   with their products or maybe you've got the  pieces put together to understand the stock   in a unique way however you come to it you have a (17:17) superior assessment of the true pros and   cons of investment for example even something as  simple as eating atole every day might reveal to   you something not understood by the broader  Market that changes the odds that the company   will continue to hit its earnings Tet targets  like noticing that their portion sizes are   shrinking which is likely to Spur a customer  Revolt it's a pretty simple hypothetical but   I actually saw a report from an investment  Bank recently that compared portion sizes at   a dozens of different Chipotles as part of their (17:42) research process so it's not as silly as   it may sound to be clear I do not think eating  at Chipotle every day will give you an inside   scoop that allows you to earn money investing  with the Kelly formula but the point remains   that the Kelly formula depends on you having  a different and more accurate assessment of   the odds and others and insights that may come  in variety of ways let's go through an example   of the Kelly formula to understand it in action  imagine that the odds for Secretariat and a horse  (18:07) race are 5 to1 or just five to use beding  parlaments based on your study of Secretariat's   habits and how he performs in certain weather  you determine that with today's weather he has   closer to a one in three chance of winning  by betting on Secretariat with $100 you have   a one-third chance to make $600 including  the amount you bet on average that Advantage   is worth $200 or 13 times a $600 payoff the  average result of $200 gives you an expected   profit of $100 that is the expected result  of $200 minus the $100 you waged to play your  (18:41) Edge comes out to one dividing from the  expected $100 profit by the $100 wager then we'd   plug in the number one into the numerator of  the Kelly formula and the denominator you divide   by the odds which are five for Secretariat  the cell formula then comes out to 1/5 that   means that you should bet 1 of your bankroll on  Secretariat I hope that wasn't too confusing to   listen to and I'll provide some links to follow  along at home for using the Kelly formula to   recap the Kelly formula is a strategy for (19:09) maximizing expected returns while   minimizing losses over time it relies on you  knowing the odds being offered in the market   for something to happen and your own more accurate  assessment of the real odds with that the formula   helps you determine the appropriate amount for  your bankroll to bet on a given wager if you do   not have any Superior insights into the odds  that a given horse will win or the odds that   a given stock will compound turns at rates  Beyond those already expected by the market   then your Edge is zero or negative in that case (19:38) the Kelly formula would tell you to bet   nothing concentrated bets are not appropriate  when you don't know anything that everyone else   doesn't already know as we've discussed a bit  the real limiting factor with the Kelly formula   is that betters rarely have a special  Advantage he realized though that there   was at least one place you could always make  favorable bets the stock market in the stock   market risk-seeking investors are rewarded  for embracing higher uncertainty on long time   periods Government Bond investors do not earn (20:04) the highest returns because they're   not taking on as much risk historically  stocks which are riskier than bonds and   aggregate generate higher average returns  over almost every decade plus timeline the   Kelly formula requires that profits are able  to be reinvested and that bets can be sized   and channeled into different categories at the  better discretion which are both characteristics   that gambling markets and financial markets  have in common enabling the Kelly form   to be used interchangeably between them I'll just (20:32) pause for a moment here to clarify that   although I'm using the word bet in both the  context of gambling and investing I'm not   exactly talking about day trading I know some  investors take offense at the word bet since   it implies that they're Reckless gamblers but  I'm really intending to use the word bet in the   broadest possible sense to reflect a decision made  with imperfect information and as I outlined with   the Chipotle example an Investor's Edge when  using the Kelly's formula doesn't necessarily  (20:55) have to SIM from illegal Insider  information perhaps better computer modeling   gives an investor an informational Advantage  they can exploit with the Kelly formula there is   a certain ethical ambiguity though to the origins  of the Kelly formula Kelly often used the example   of riged horse races where a better exploited and  unfair advantage over others to show what an edge   may look like the story of the Kelly formula is a  story of Secrets One where betters and investors   alike stop betting when their secret Advantage is (21:22) gone it's up to the user's interpretation   to determine what constitutes an advantage  but I'm in no way encouraging any to trade   on illegal Insider information which would  be the most obvious stock market parallel   to a rigged horse race going back to the  story in January 1961 Ed Thorp went before   the American mathematical Society to present  a version of the paper submitted previously   by Kelly and Shannon a reporter at the  event wrote a story about the so-called   fortunes formula and its potential in blackjack (21:50) sparing a nationwide frenzy among betters   hoping to get in touch with Thorp Thorp got more  Outreach sent him in response to the paper than   every other mathematician at MIT had for their  past published papers combined in all he received   thousands of letters Thorp was Keen to test out  his approach to Blackjack in a real casino and   Shannon suggested to him that he try using Kelly's  formula since it would reduce the risk of loss and   tell him exactly how much to bet depending  on how favorable the deck was a wealthy New  (22:17) Yorker offered to fund thorp's Endeavor  giving him $100,000 to take on the Vegas casinos   in exchange for a 90% share of the gambling  profits that Thorp earned Blackjack is a game   of mostly even money bets and only occasionally do  opportunities arise that give the better an edge   that would encourage them to bet following the  Kelly formula the problem in practice was that   carefully watching the game while only rarely  betting would too obviously raise suspicion   Thorp had to adjust his approach to account for (22:44) making a number of low stakes losing   bets which would help him avoid allegations  of card counting after about 30 hours of play   Thorp turned $10,000 into 21,000 but he was  kicked out of a number of casinos along the   way no one could quite forget what he was doing  they all knew he was winning more than he should   and casinos don't exactly owe you an explanation  they can just kick you out at their discretion   the beauty of using the Kelly formula is  that even if Thorp had an unlucky streak   of bets at the casino the formula minimizes his (23:13) potential ruin since it prescribes bets   as a proportion of your current bank roll the  nominal size of your bets shrinks as you incur   losses which are still inevitable even with  the Kelly formula but you can never run out   of money following the Kelly formula because  every recommended bet scal with the size of   your bank roll the only real world limitation  is if your bank roll becomes too small the   dollar amount that the Kelly formula tells you  to bet may not meet minimum wager requirements   and assuming you have an edge in the long (23:42) run you'll compound your winnings   and grow your bankroll or portfolio size whereas  the Cali formula minimizes losses over time you   can imagine an alternative better who doubles down  after winning and likes to make outsize Bets with   all or most of their bank roll while this better  can accumulate well faster with large BS they will   inevitably get wiped out running a simulation  a thousand times the All or Nothing Better has   considerably worse outcomes on average because  even just a few incidents of being wiped out skews  (24:09) the expected results dramatically downward  Buy Low sell High Buy Low sell high it's a simple   concept but not necessarily an easy concept  right now High interest rates have crushed   the real estate market prices are falling and  properties are available at a account which means   fundrise believes now is the time to expand the  fundrise flagship funds billion doll real estate   portfolio you can add the fundrise flagship fund  to your portfolio in minutes by visiting fundrise.  (24:42) com Millennial that's fnd r.com Millennial  carefully consider the investment objectives risks   charges and expenses of the fundrise flagship fund  before investing this and other information can be   found in the funds perspectus at fundrise /f  Flagship this is a paid advertisement making   proportional bets as a percentage of net worth is  not unique to Kelly's formula though so what then   makes the Kelly formula so special the simple  answer is that after rigorously testing as many   conceivable approaches to betting as possible the (25:18) Kelly formula delivers the best results   over time by far you don't need to really deeply  understand the math to recognize that three of   the smartest mathematical thinkers of the 20th  century landed on the Kelly formula as the optimal   approach to sizing bets depending on how much  Edge you have working in your favor in a way you   can think of this formula as an optimal way for  allocating Capital uncovered by some of the most   Brilliant Minds to ever live the Kelly formula  strikes the statistically proven Ideal Balance  (25:43) between making undersized and oversized  bets over time if you're not making large enough   bets based on the odds and Edge at hand you're  inefficiently allocating capital and will earn   worse returns and as I suggested a minute ago  oversized bets are the fastest way to wipe out   your bank roll over time as a Thorp went around  racking up winnings at casinos using the Kelly   formula and his approach to card counting the  casino industry actively conspired against him   employing dealers who would try to cheat (26:09) him especially after he published   his book beat the dealer which they saw as  offering anyone in the public A playbook for   taking money out of their pocket Thorp had  become something of an existential threat to   casinos exposing the vulnerabilities of  one of their most popular games shortly   thereafter the Vegas resort and hotel association  announced new rules for blackjack making the game   harder for card counters adhering to the Kelly  formula turning to financial markets I want to   outline how stock prices should work in theory (26:36) changes in stock prices should essentially   be completely random based on whether incremental  news about the company improves upon current   expectations of performance or subtracts from  them fluctuations in one way or another are   responses to new information relative to what  is already priced in at least if you assume   markets are generally efficient assembling a stock  accurately reflects expectations for a company's   performance it's future stock price performance  is inherently unpredictable because only new  (27:01) information deviating from those  expectations would materially move prices   companies that somehow deliver results perfectly  in line with Market expectations should not swing   meaningfully up or down it is only results  above or below expectations That Swing the   stock a stock then is subjected to an  unknowable and constant stream of new   information about what the company and the  environment it operates in which will revise   expectations upward or downwards this implies that  someone who buys a stock and sell it immediately  (27:29) is as likely to have a loss as a gain  the Speculator Edge is therefore zero but the   question to next consider is to what extent do  socks actually reflect available information you   might think of the question as being similar to  asking whether the Earth is round if you're asking   roughly whether the Earth is flat or round  the simple answer is yes it is and markets   roughly do a good job at accounting for available  information and then reflecting that information   into prices in real time yet if you're asking (27:55) a more nuanced question about whether   the Earth is precisely round the answer is no  because it's not a perfect sphere the same is   true with markets it remains hotly debated but  we know there are real limits to how efficiently   markets reflect available information the original  academics who hypothesize the efficient markets   hypothesis as it's known outlined three  different degrees of market efficiency the   weakest form of efficiency does not perfectly  reflect available information about a company's  (28:21) fundamentals but says that no one can  gain an edge by simply evaluating stock charts   that is to say technical analysis of price data  should provide no Advantage the stronger form of   efficiency adds in publicly available information  about a company's operations and finances such   that no one can gain an edge by digging through  financial statements to predict future results and   then the most extreme form of market efficiency  that is far less commonly accepted is the idea   that Insider information is priced into stocks too (28:48) that would mean for example that if an   Insider tried to sell shares because they knew  the stock would Mis earnings they would receive   no benefit from doing so because that information  would have already been leaked to the broader   market and priced in there have been some examples  of this where insiders didn't benefit as expected   from inside information but I don't think most  believe that this is probably true and thinking   about gaining an edge in gambling as well as  in the market clad Shannon ironically had a  (29:12) famed indifference to money he saw himself  as an academic devoted to uncovering the truth who   disdained the blinding and corrupting effects that  money could have for years he kept his money only   in a checking account earning no interest and he  refused to invest in stocks or bonds but when one   of Shannon's friends started the company Harrison  Labs Shannon invested the stop would go on a surge   and be acquired by hulet Packard leaving  Shannon with exceptional gains in the 1950s   Shannon began an intensive study of the stock (29:39) market out of intellectual curiosity and   a newfound interest in personal profit Shannon  was of course not the first great mathematical   mind to think that they could extend their  talents to success in the stock market top   of mind for Shannon was determining just how  efficient the stock market is and to what   extent he could leverage betting formulas like the  Kelly formula to help him exploit inefficiencies   well Shannon alongside Thorp and Kelly had put  considerable thought into applying the Kelly   formula to gambling horse races and black Che (30:06) are not quite the same as the stock   market horse races have defined outcomes horse  can either win or lose the range of outcomes   for a stock though is in a way Limitless it  can Rise by any amount or fall to zero horse   races also occur over defined periods they have  a beginning and an end stocks trade for six and   a half hours a day five days a week and they do  so indefinitely andless like company D lists its   shares for some reason its stock could trade  forever investors can also stay invested for   as long or as short as they'd like there is (30:37) a time element to investing that   doesn't exist in the same way with gambling  yet Shannon remained confident in rejecting   the efficient markets hypothesis and  in using edges and investing to earn   abnormally large returns without taking on  additional risk meanwhile Ed Thor was also   turning his interest to the stock market after  deciding that he might risk bodily harm if he   pushed his luck any further dambl at casinos  Thorp was particularly interested in stock   options after just an hour of researching them (31:04) he had devised a model for pricing options   stock options gave the option to buy or sell  stock at a certain price for example a stock   option might enable you to purchase shares in  a company at $25 per share if the Stock's price   goes to $29 the option must be worth at least  $4 because it enables you to buy shares at a   $4 discount to current prices but what is this  option worth if the stock is trading below $25   it must be worth something because until  the option expires it remains possible   that the Stock's price will go above $25 (31:35) and leave you with a profitable   opportunity to buy discounted shares and  options pricing then essentially reflects   the consensus odds that the option will in fact  be profitable at some point as well as a bet on   how profitable it will be as an options  price Falls the market is implying that   it's less likely that the Stock's price will  exceed $25 before the option expires while he   realized that there were too many r variables  to try and predict that might fundamentally   happen to a company over a short period of time (32:03) he could make vets based on probability   distributions stocks with higher average  daily price fluctuations tend to have a wider   range of possible future prices knowing  that thorb found that most options were   priced too expensively based on probability  distributions they didn't offer sufficiently   high enough odds to be profitable to justify  their price he compared the options Market   at the time to a carnival game where  many participants were simply hoping   to win well he didn't want to buy those options (32:29) he could short them shorting expensive   options flipped the odds in his favor he could  profitably collect premiums from selling options   that did not accurately reflect the risk that  he was incurring like the house and a casino   the odds would be in his favor and he had an  edge to exploit by more accurately pricing   options in the rest of the market similar  to how you might bet on all the horses in   a race to win and exploit mispriced odds who  hedged his options positions by purchasing the   company's stock that way if the stock did surge (32:56) the gains he earned from owning the stock   would offset the losses he took from selling  options against them the practice of long short   hedging certainly predates Thorp in the Kelly  formula but thorp's Advantage was in using the   Kelly formula and his calculations of the true  odds for options pricing to determine the optimal   amount of stock he needed to go long to mitigate  the risks he took from shorting the Stock's   options this practice is known as Delta hedging  and you profit from the irrational price of  (33:21) the option coming into line with the  Stock's pricing the beauty of options is that they   offer an explicit date for pric reconciliation  a company stock may be irrationally priced for   a long periods of time but the option will either  be worthless or profitable by its expiration date   Thorp continued to refine his system and grew  his $40,000 portfolio into over $100,000 but   his approach wasn't bulletproof many options  traded in a liquid markets and he could move   those markets with just his own trading it (33:49) also required constant attention to   ensure that as stock and aution prices fluctuated  he maintained the proper degree of hedging with   this hedging his portfolio could be Market neutral  meaning he could still profit regardless of what   was happening in the broader Market a down year  for socks may still be very profitable for him   while many of his bets weren't profitable he  was able to use the Kelly formula to ensure   he wasn't betting too big so his losses  were minimized Thorp was earning returns   of 30 to 50% per year and he felt he had (34:19) so many ideas for how to continue   generating those returns he thought he could  give away some of his secret sauce as he did   with the book beat the dealer his next book  was called beating the market and he hoped   that by publishing it it would enable him  to raise more money for his hedge fund it   worked by November 1969 thorp's hedge fund was  in business taking his learnings about options   Thorp fixated on valuing convertible bonds which  are essentially regular corporate bonds with an   added option to convert the bonds into shares (34:45) of stock while there wasn't really a   universal formula for doing so at the time  Thorp had cracked the code in 1967 use a   version of an approach that is now mainstream  in options pressing the black sches model   valuing options whether on their own or connected  to a convertible Bond then depended on the strike   price to execute the option the Stock's  current price the time until expiration   and the amount of expected fluctuation in the  Stock's price known as volatility he gained   an edge by finding mispriced convertible (35:14) bonds betting on or against them   and using the underlying stock to hedge  his bets in its first full year even after   extracting Hefty fees for the fund Thorp  delivered a return that beat the S&P 500   by 10 percentage points and would double the  S&P performance over the following year most   of the time his bets were well below the  prescribed Kelly limit but that was all   he could spend there are only so many options  in convertible bonds trading so there's a hard   limit on how big those bets can be on occasion (35:43) though he did identify opportunities   that were as close to a sure thing as possible  and he bet more than 30% of the total portfolio   on them aligning with the Kelly's formula  outlin to bet more when you have a greater   Edge and expected profit eventually as the Black  shs pricing model for options became more widely   understood options markets and convertible Bond  markets became more efficiently priced and Thorp   had to look elsewhere for an edge by the mid  1970s Thorp was generating solidly positive   returns while the stock market averages (36:11) fell and that success ballooned   his assets under management to more than $20  million in one example in 1974 Thor purchased   AMC's convertible bonds with a $1,000 face value  which had fallen to a price of $600 convertible   Bond holders maintained the right to convert  their bonds into 100 shares of stock and with   the stock selling at $6 per share the convertible  bonds were effectively selling at exactly the same   price as the stock yet the bonds paid 5% interest  while the stock paid no dividends owning the bond  (36:41) had all the upside of owning the  stock with a cushion from the interest paid   and bankruptcy protection since Bond holders  get repaid in bankruptcy before stockholders   there was seemingly nothing that could go wrong if  the stock went up he could convert the bond into   shares of stock and if it didn't he could collect  interest payments and would eventually get repaid   to hedge his position in case the company went  bankrupt he shorted the stock after having bought   its convertible bonds so if the company went (37:07) under he would profit from his short   bet while still receiving at least a partial  payout on his bonds via bankruptcy distributions   to creditors because the trade was a sure thing  with no risk of ruin the Kelly formula permitted   him to leverage his bet with borrowed money which  is exactly what he did it was a huge winner and   while Thorp has said these types of situations  were few and far between between they made their   living off of them while academics might argue  that these inefficiencies and markets should  (37:34) not be able to persist for very long as  arbitragers leap in to make easy profits Lor found   that these twoo good to be true opportunities  were far more persistent limits to Arbitrage   such as transaction costs liquidity and available  funds for exploiting in Arbitrage contributed to   mispricings in markets that could last for days  or weeks what's interesting to me is that while   reading this book or really any accounting of what  great investors have done in the past it's really   easy to chalk it up to a bygone era when it was (38:03) simply easier to exploit opportunities   people were not Dumber back then though we can't  just write off opportunities of the past as having   only existed because of collective incompetence  or because of technological inferiority academics   in the 1970s were just as confident then that  markets were efficient as they are now yet in   hindsight there were clear opportunities to  exploit and people were doing that although   looking for option Market mispricing and  Arbitrage opportunities and convertible   bonds or well documented tactics on Wall Street (38:32) now they were novel for a Time the point   being I don't think it's accurate to conclude that  it's impossible to gain an edge in markets today   just because strategies that worked in the past  like obvious now in thorp's Era computers were   knew and few people had access to them at scale  and knew how to program them his familiarity with   them investment in them to maximize his competing  power on hand and mathematical background enabled   him to do things that were at the Forefront of  his era he found a unique way to Garner an edge so  (39:00) no you can't look at what he did in  the 1970s and try to do the same thing yourself   because that's no longer a fresh strategy there's  no Edge to be had anymore but that doesn't mean   that there aren't opportunities being overlooked  in markets it just means that to find them you   need to be like Thorp you must dare to venture  where no one else has looked before or dig to   uncover realities that are for some reason not  being properly accounted for in other words   markets are efficient in ways they weren't decades (39:24) ago thanks to the pioneering   accomplishments of people like Thorp but that  doesn't mean markets are perfectly efficient   now if you intend to do anything but invest  in passive index funds you must honestly look   yourself in the mirror and ask what your  Edge is what Insight or information do you   have that is not understood by the millions of  investors who pour over the same economic and   financial data I'll also add that when it comes  to the Kelly formula it is not without at least   some controversy the drama is a bit academic (39:51) yet not everyone agrees that the Kelly   formula is the optimal approach to investing  yes it generates the best returns over time   but it also endorses arguably aggressive  investment strategies and constant reinvestment   while it prevents ruin in the long run it can  still encour significant losses over shorter   periods of time and when we're talking about  people's life savings on the line they may not   be willing to tolerate those swings in the long  run we're all dead and you might not be able to   wait forever for theoretically optimal (40:17) investment results it's sort   of funny to say but in some cases it's  really not always about maximizing your   theoretically possible wealth at all costs  if you don't want to reinvest all available   funds or can't afford to wait decades the Kelly  formula isn't necessarily the best model to adhere   to more conservative approaches to match your  life cell are of course justifiable but there   was some concern when financial advisers first  began modeling their guidance around approaches   similar to The Kelly formula that people may (40:44) adopt overly aggressive investment   strategies there was a wave of academic backlash  against the Kelly formula in the 1970s for this   reason as they felt it gave the false promise of  universally helpful Financial advice that didn't   actually cater to people people's lifestyle  goals and risk tolerance following the Kelly   formula subjects one to fearsome volatility  which is not something everyone can handle   as an alternative the half Kelly formula  has become popular in certain circles as   a way to tame volatility where you bet (41:12) half of the prescribed amount by   the Kelly formula each time it's appealing  because in probability models this approach   Cuts volatility drastically while only reducing  returns by a quarter while there is some reason   to consider making bets that are a fraction  of what the Kelly formula advises to limit vol   utility in the intermediate term betting more  than what is recommended by the Kelly formula   is a fast track to ruin because return swing so  wildly when sizing positions and excess of the   Kelly formula would recommend over the long (41:39) term a better betting more than the   formula recommends almost always gets wiped  out at some point turning back to thorp's   hedge fund his success seemed to defy gravity  and he became incredibly Rich at the peak of   his wealth he purchased a 10-bedroom house  with a fallout shelter it was apparently   fortified enough to withstand a nuclear bomb  bom that could explode less than a mile away   thorp's success wouldn't last forever though  but that wasn't because of his failures as an   investor or shortcomings in the Kelly formula (42:07) instead it was because of the legally   dubious entangling of his partner while  Thorp devised the strategies for the hedge   fund from his comfortable home in California  his business partner made relationships across   Wall Street at a time when the mob and other  criminal elements were still quite active in   New York City it cracked down on organized  crime and its linkages left Thor bewildered   when attention turned to his firm thanks to his  partner's Shady connections well Thorp himself   didn't face charges and is thought to have been (42:34) telling the truth when saying he wasn't   aware of the sort of illicit deals being  made by his partner Thorp still chose to   dissolve his hedron in 1988 disrupting  one of the most impressive careers in   investment history thorp's track record  from 1969 to 1988 was truly breathtaking   over that period a dollar invested with him  would have grown to almost $15 that is a 15.  (42:56) 1% compound annual growth rate after fees  crushing the S&P 500's 88.8% return over the same   period only Legends like George Soros and Warren  Buffett have top that sort of outperformance   on a multi-decade timeline yet thorp's risk  adjusted returns as they say were unrivaled   while we've talked in previous episodes about  how price volatility is an inadequate measure   of risk there's still something to be said about  generating excellent returns while also avoiding   stress inducing price swings thorb returns were (43:24) remarkably steady far less volatile   than Soros or buff and even less volatile than  Market averages adjusting returns for volatility   incurred is the standard for determining truly  exceptional returns in the hedge fund world and   by that measure Thorp was in the league of his  own volatility is often said to be the price   paid for earning the 8 to 10% returns that  the stock market is known to generate over   time but it is certainly better to earn those  returns without volatility if possible it's   just that doing so has not really been possible (43:52) for many besides Thorp Thorp would go   on to launch another hedge fund in 1994 where  he improved his track record with even better   annual returns in one note forb argued that  in case anyone thought his success was due   to luck the sheer frequency of bets he made  should be enough to reasonably improve his   skill over his career he estimated that he made  more than $80 billion worth of Trades broken   into 250,000 different Bets with on average  hundreds of positions in place at any one   time like Thorp shanon also relied on the Kelly (44:24) formula and had a stellar track record   in 1986 Shannon's returns had outpaced  almost every major money manager except   for three despite running an operation of  just himself and his wife while the others   sometimes employed hundreds of people from the  late 1950s to 1986 his annual returns were in   the neighborhood of 28% rivaling Warren  Buffett's record over a similar period   unlike Thorp though Shannon was more of a Buy  and Hold investor seeking to extract signal   from noise he would evaluate company's (44:53) management and products and then   derive projections of their earnings  performance in the coming years   he recognized that in the long run stock prices  must follow earnings growth and felt most   technical analysis of price shirs was a very noisy  reproduction of the most important underlying data   Shannon embraced the idea that what matters  is not how a stock has done in the last few   days or weeks but how it's earnings have changed  one of his biggest Holdings was actually tadine   and Shannon served on the board there helping to (45:19) advise Henry Singleton who was profiled in   the book The Outsiders and who Warren Buffett once  said had one of the best track records of capital   allocation in in Us corporate history at one point  teline made up as much as 80% of his portfolio yet   that sort of extreme concentration when he fell  the Evan Edge since he knew Singleton so well   didn't phase him from tadine to his earlier picks  of leading tech companies Shannon leveraged his   personal relationships career background at Bell  labs and other experiences and knowledge to invest  (45:48) where he had an edge evidently he did a  phenomenal job knowing not only what bets to make   and where he had an edge but also how to properly  size those bets thanks to the Kelly formula in   conclusion today I hope you can see the beauty of  the Kelly formula and its resistance to Wipeout   which enables it to maximize long-term Returns  the formula is almost paranoid in a way because   following the Kelly formula one would be pushed to  avoid bets that introduce even microscopic risks   of total loss it is an acknowledgement that (46:17) infrequent but severe losses are   inevitable and that the only way to win long term  is to avoid any possibility of having your wealth   reset to zero in 2003 the legendary investor  Bill Miller wrote that the Kelly formula was   critical to his decision-making process that he  thought few of his colleagues in the investment   management business used it because it didn't  stem from more mainstream academic sources   surprisingly it is still a somewhat Fringe  topic I'm not going to say most professional   investors aren't at least familiar with (46:43) it but I doubt that most use it in   their daily decision-making process as Poundstone  writes in the book this is a story that has gone   everywhere except toward a clear ending I found  it fascinating to dig into the life stories of   Shannon Kelly and thorb and I couldn't believe how  many different fascinating stories overlapped with   the origins of the Kelly formula from the Genesis  of AT&T to Time Warner connections to the Mob what   really caused long-term Capital Management  to blow up and Rudy giuliani's Crackdown on  (47:10) Wall Street in the 1980s this book touched  on a fascinating array of topics and histories I'd   really encourage you to read it for yourself  since obviously I couldn't cover every Rabbit   Hole in today's episode and as is fundamental  to the Kelly formula I want you to ask what   your Edge is in investing I know it's a question  I'll be reflecting on myself with that I'll leave   you with a line from Ed Thorp himself Thorp says  quote gambling is a tax on ignorance people often   gamble because they think they can win they're (47:40) lucky they have hunches that sort of thing   whereas in fact they're going to be remorselessly  ground down over time I hope you enjoyed today's   episode and I'll see you again next time hey  guys this is your Millennial investing host   Shan Ali when I first started learning as a value  investor I had no idea idea what direction to go   in there's just so much to try and wrap  your head around but it's never too late   to get smarter about Stock Investing from the  ground up after spending years interviewing and  (48:08) studying the best stock investors as  a company at the investors podcast Network   I've worked to distill those learnings into a  simple course for you why did I do that so I   can help you master the principles of excellent  lifelong investing I was a fan of the investors   podcast for years before I joined the team and  I always wanted a course that broke broke down   the most important insights from a decade of  interviews with leading investors the course   is great for both beginners and pros from  studying what the Legends actually do to  (48:37) small practical ways to build your  wealth over time I'll take you through 10   different sections covering the basics of what  a stock actually is and how stock markets work   to strategies to optimize your retirement  savings picking great companies what to look   for in ETFs how much you should invest and how  to monitor your Investments plus so much more by   the time you're done you'll be ready to invest in  the stock market learning plenty of tricks from   the pros along the way to access the course  and begin learning how to invest like the  (49:06) Legends just visit the investors  podcast.com getstarted with stocks that's   the investors podcast.com slet started with  stocks and for a limited time you can use   code mi15 for a 15% discount at checkout that's  mi15 when checking out to int intelligently bear   risk as an investor the risks at hand have to be  ones that you're aware of capable of analyzing   diversifiable and that pay a sufficient reward  for assuming there will inevitably be losing   Investments across the lifetime but the question  is really rather how many losers there will  (49:46) be and how bad they  are relative to your winners