Gold About To Double Again As Financial Crisis Now ‘Inevitable’ | Rob Bruggeman
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Learn more about Starfighters Space at https://starfightersspace.com/ Rob Bruggeman, Co-Founder of The Wealthy Miner, and …
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So ultimately, yeah, I think there's going to be some kind of financial crisis that will force um countries to actually reign in their spending. The nice thing about inflation, you're paying off legacy debts with dollars that aren't worth as much. So yeah, I think inflation is a way out. Gold prices are doing very well, but we talked about currencies and inflation, all that stuff. And I think it's a very important point to say that those who are producing right now will do well. We're now living in an era where investors and the markets overall are valuing commodities at unprecedented levels because society realizes how important they are and how scarce they are. The recent strikes on Iran have taught us this very valuable lesson. Oil is now trading above $80 a barrel. It was briefly at above $100 a barrel earlier this week, touching as high as 119. That's the highest it's been since uh the Ukraine invasion started in 2022. Gold, meanwhile, is back above $5,100. Uh, silver is still near its all-time highs. And so, what are the commodities complexes telling us about the future of our economy and where are the best opportunities now for investors? Rob Bergamman is here to join us today to talk about these opportunities. He's a co-founder of the Wealthy Miner and the director of Abba Silver Resource Corp. Welcome to the show, Rob. Good to see you. >> Hi, David. Thanks for having me on your show. It seems to me like I stated in the introduction that commodities are at a new zenith in terms of popularity. But are we at a market top or is this just the beginning? This is the question that so many investors have come up to me personally to ask. Where are we in the current cycle? Let's start there. Are we at a top for gold, silver, copper, platinum, palladium, and all these other metals? >> No, David, I don't think so. I think we're maybe halfway. Um, we have to see how things play out. And I like to think of myself just as an analyst. So, you know, as much as I would like the market to go somewhere or hope that it does, really, I just I react. But based on the analysis I've done on historical cycles and then the forces that I see influencing metal prices today, I would say there's significant more upside. Um, and then it'll probably overshoot at some point and then settle, you know, somewhere. Um, who knows where, but I think it's going to be higher than where we are today. um especially on uh gold and longer term. I just I love the setup for copper. >> Okay. Well, let's talk about gold first and uh why gold is behaving the way it is. Let me show you a chart of the gold price right now on my screen. And if I zoom out all the way to 2011, you'll see that it's kind of reflecting. We're repeating what happened in 2011. There was a top in September, came down a little bit, then another double top um and then stayed flat or rangebound for about a year before coming all the way back down and troughing in 2015. Right now, something similar has happened. We've had a top in uh the end of February. Gold has come down sharply intraday uh between February, end of February and March. Uh sorry, yeah, be end of Mar end of January rather and beginning of March. It's already come down 20%. So that was a local top. Now it's trailing sideways and slightly up and recovering from its losses in early February. What's different about now versus 2011 is my question. >> Yeah. So, you know, just looking at the chart, you can see why people are asking, hey, is this the top? Because the run we've had is just spectacular, especially if you look at at a uh regular scale chart. for sure. >> Um now if you include that cycle, the one leading up to 2011 as well as previous cycles and you put it um with a log scale, then all of a sudden this looks um similar to what we've seen in the past. Now, of course, every cycle is different. There are different factors. Um put very simply, um you know, it's what makes things go up is obviously more people buying and fewer people selling. um which then begets momentum etc etc. Um so the current cycle is it's different than 2011. Um it's also different than what we saw in the 70s but the underlying drivers are somewhat the same and it is uh well it's multifaceted and one thing is obviously it's measured in dollars and so we have to look hard at what is happening with the US dollar right now and what's going to happen with the US dollar and so how much of this is say a gold move up which is that supply and demand I alluded to versus how much is dollar action so you One thing I think that's very important is um if you look at not just the US but around the world developed economies if you look at their debt to GDP it's been climbing climbing climbing and for the US it's now back up to where it was post World War II. So this is rather unprecedented. The only one that's way ahead is obviously Japan. Um but you know what this demonstrates is governments around the world um have a spending problem. Um and as long as bond markets don't force them to rein it in um they'd rather spend much more than they take in. That was really accelerated by COVID. during COVID obviously um disruptive time um people losing jobs and so there was a massive influx of government spending um what governments realized was the the voters loved that they didn't care if it was being financed by debt they loved their handouts um and so I think since 2020 so even though this is now past CO we haven't really seen that spending slow down that much. So, um, yeah, and I think it's going to accelerate again in the US leading into midterms because it's the easiest way to get reelected. You just hand people money that's either paid by somebody else or financed by debt. But the reason that's significant when you look at gold is the more money you print, the less the purchasing power is. So I think globally what we're seeing with all of this massive spending deficits and debt, you're seeing the purchasing power of fiat currencies erode. And that's why we're seeing most hard assets go up. you know, some nuances in real estate, but overall, um, you know, I think any hard asset, whether it's real estate, infrastructure, um, base metals, precious metals, oil, they're all going up in part because they're measured in dollar terms, let's say. Um, so, you know, that in itself is good for gold if you measure in US dollars. But the other thing that's happening that's really significant in this cycle and I think is is largely unprecedented um compared to past cycles is that you've got a couple of other things happening at the same time with the dollar. You've got diversification and you've got potential debasement. So, by diversification, what I mean is um in the past, the US dollar was really the go-to currency. And so, if other countries had extra money, a safe bet was to hold it in US dollars and maybe buy treasuries or something like that. the US started getting more hostile with China and so we saw them reduce their um foreign reserves held in US dollars and we started seeing them buy more gold. Um now I think we've seen that in other countries as well and I think we see it accelerate because when you look at the trade friction being created by the US it's significant. So if you're for example in Germany and you've got you large US treasury reserves and the US says hey we don't really like um this trade imbalance we have we want to onshore a number of jobs and so we're going to slap some tariffs on you um and at the same time also saying hey if uh you know if you get invaded we may not be there for you because we think your um defense spending is too low. I think you have to take a step back if you're this using the Germans as an example just the government there and you say hey should we be holding US dollars you know I think the smarter play for these countries right now is to diversify those holdings into gold and that we're that's what we're seeing what that also leads to is then potential US dollar debasement the US dollar was the again the go-to currency for trade settlement Um try China has recently been trying to change that somewhat so far unsuccessfully. Um but also that was part of the genesis of the euro. It was an alternative to the US dollar. Now it hasn't really succeeded. Um so the US dollar is still king but I think you have people looking for alternatives and there are rumors that China may potentially come up with something new that's going to be backed by the u uh sorry by gold as opposed to US dollar. So there all these major um forces underpinning the move in gold and I don't see them um subsiding yet. I think gold may have more to run and based on past cycles um where gold has gone up six to seven times. Right now we're up three times. So I could still see gold doubling. Before we continue with the video, I want to bring to your attention one of the few space related companies in the public markets right now, Starf Fighters. Today's sponsor, Starf Fighter Space, is an aerospace company operating the world's only commercial fleet of Mach 2 capable Lockheed F104 aircraft. They are based out of NASA's Kennedy Space Center and focus on hypersonic air launch testing and micro satellite deployment aiming to reduce costs and timelines compared to traditional launch methods. The company has worked with organizations like NASA, Loheed Martin, GE, and the US Air Force. They completed a regulation A+ race in December 2025 and went public under the ticker FJ earlier this year. If this is something you want to look into, talk to your financial adviser and start your own due diligence on Starf Fighter space. You can scan the QR code here or go to the link in the description to learn more. And don't forget to read all the risk disclosures and filings. what would need to change in the world for you to make the assessment that the momentum of gold is about to stall? In other words, these forces that you described, what would need to happen for them to reverse and change your mind on gold? >> So, I think you know what we just saw in the Middle East, um you've seen oil skyrocket and gold actually pull back, although it's recovering nicely. >> Yeah. Um but that you know that's a temporary example of what's happening and that's because when you have something like uh the invasion of Iran there's a flight to safety and again the easiest thing is just buy dollars you know go to safety and so I think that's what's happened recently you've seen the dollar go up and gold is kind of it's actually done very well but it's it's kind of paused its move upward. So, you know, I think your question is really what could change these factors that I'm talking about? And probably the biggest um I don't know if you call it risk, but the biggest potential driver of that would be midterm elections in the US. >> Okay? because a lot of this is being driven by Republican party policies or US government policies that are upsetting um globalization trade as well as you all this pressure on things like defense spending. So I think that's probably the biggest risk on gold. Um you know obviously midterms are in November but we'll see how the polls are and what uh what the Republicans do to try to hold on to power. But if they're a lame duck government, um although Trump will still try to do things by way of executive orders, it's going to be much harder and then I think the US dollar could recover and then that's going to hamper um the upside on gold. The Trump administration has taken several measures to bolster the dollar. Trump has believed that a strong dollar is part of his agenda. So let's evaluate some of these measures uh because we're discussing whether or not a stronger dollar will have an adverse impact on gold. So the make the dollar great again kind of trade or approach it involves strengthening the dollar through different financial tools and trade policies. Trump has outright threatened countries with more additional tariffs if they stop using the dollar as a medium of exchange like you stated earlier. Uh he's also uh he's also um supported aggressive tariffs which one would argue long-term is bullish for the dollar. uh he has he has um called on the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates which arguably arguably may be bullish for the dollar long term if you're thinking about economic stimulus uh making uh American trade more appealing but in the short term maybe not. So maybe help us evaluate some of Trump's fiscal policies and trade policies and whether or not they will drive more demand for the dollar in the short term. >> Sure. Yeah. So, what we've seen um is, yeah, we'll start with the US Fed. Um, you're going to see a new Fed chair. I believe it's in June. Um, and obviously Trump wanted to pick a Fed who is uh likely to lower rates. Now, those are short-term rates, but um lower rates and I think shifting focus to employment versus inflation um which can then justify lower rates. I think that makes the dollar weaker. Um, you know, the Fed does not really control longer term rates, however, um, not at least with, um, interest rate policy, but with quantitative easing. Um, that's the case. So, yeah, I think I think Trump and the Republicans actually want a weaker dollar, and they've talked about onshoring more manufacturing jobs. Um I think even um some of the moves in immigration so u or not immigration per se but immigrants or illegal immigrants or migrants or whatever you want to call them. >> Yeah. >> Um I I think is linked as well and part of it probably is concern about the future impact of AI. So I think um the US government is looking at um a weaker dollar so that they can export more goods and create manufacturing jobs and it's going to be instead of more jobs and services which may be at risk because of AI I think it's going to be more hands-on stuff you know and construction and trades but things that can't be replaced by AI and so you know I think the US will actually benefit from a weaker dollar in in large part. So um that's kind of what I see for the uh foreseeable future. I think also you know people talk about US dollar exceptionalism. So the US economy has done so well. Um the US dollar is the you undisputed reserve currency. Um but I think we're we're seeing that change and they're okay with that. This is an article or uh a a piece written by Amundi Investment Solutions. Um I'm just going to read a few paragraphs here. From 2022 to 2024, net central bank gold purchases more than doubled, surpassing 1,000 tons on a yearly basis. The search is primarily driven by central banks in Asia, including those of China, India, and Japan, as well as the emerging markets more broadly. And here's a chart that they have here showing central banks holdings in gold as a percentage of total in a three-month average basis. And you can see it's rising at the fastest pace since the mid90s. Now, uh the factors that have incentivized central banks around the world to to to buy gold. Uh this article states that uh uh the gold price rally signals more than just a market trend. It indicates it indicates in our view the beginning of a gradual transition from a US- ccentric international monetary system to a more multipolar one. So my question is Rob, we know that some of these forces that have prompted central banks and other entities, institutional funds to look into gold, perhaps they haven't gone away yet, but I've also been told that central banks are quite price sensitive. In other words, they were more likely to buy when the price is relatively low and buy less or perhaps even sell when prices have gone up enough. I'm not calling central banks hedge funds, but that has been their buying pattern in the past. So if you were a central bank for either China or Japan or even you know a Eastern European central bank, how would you evaluate the current conditions for gold, the current price and factor that into your decision as to whether or not to buy more gold today? Yes, I think there's some um investor psychology always which uh you prefer to buy things at low prices but you know if you look way back at um central bank gold holdings for a long time they were on decline um you know from I guess the 1980s into the 2000s and then that that changed um and I think now increasingly these central banks see the value of diversifying their holdings and you know I think the price is actually confirming the value of gold versus especially uh US dollar holdings. The you know the knock against gold which is legitimate is that it doesn't pay any interest. So at least um if you hold treasuries then you're getting paid interest on those holdings which you don't get on gold. So that's really uh the big negative on gold. Um but with all the you know these major tectonic shifts in global trade and um geopolitics um I think more than ever there's a lot of stability from holding gold. Um the other thing I would point out is you know when you're a central bank or uh a government it's not your money. Um, so you know, if you think it adds stability, um, I think you just you pull the trigger, it's working, you buy more gold. We've seen, you know, for example, Poland is a big buyer of gold. Um, I think it, you know, strategically it also gives you some ammo in terms of negotiation with the US. So I think you may see some of that where they say okay well you know give us favorable trade policies or else we may diversify our holdings. Um and then in some cases you know perhaps China and certainly the case with Russia and uh those who are maybe not allied with the US. Um the other thing that comes into play is um you can hold gold um securely and keep control of it. So for example with Russia they had foreign reserves held in US dollars and a number of those um got seized. So you know that's a risk you don't have with gold. So I think increasingly for example with China that may be a consideration. So you know there's always lots of noise about Taiwan. Um yeah I think for China it's probably you'd rather hold gold than US treasuries. Um especially if if something happens. So I think um and then yeah there's something to be said about again investor psychology momentum trading I think is as long as we see gold continuing to go up um we'll probably see more central bank buying. Uh there's a little bit of chatter but it's out of really um second or third tier countries about >> selling some and that's just because they need the money. Um but uh yeah, I think we'll continue to see uh gold holdings at central banks continue to increase. >> Here I'm going to show you a uh chart showing the US surplus or deficit. This is from the St. Louis Fed. I'm just going to show uh and here we have uh just in millions of dollars uh the deficit peaked um around COVID and now it's sitting around $1.7 trillion. Is there a relationship between I mean on paper there isn't a direct correlation but is there just broadly speaking a fundamental relationship between the amount of spending that the government undertakes versus receipts in other words the deficit or surplus versus the gold price or gold demand overall. >> Yeah definitely. So again that goes back to purchasing power right. So the more money you print or the more debt you take on um the relative to GDP then the lower um the purchasing power is of each dollar. And so even if gold on its own does nothing if that devalues say whatever your benchmark is the US dollar then yeah gold prices denominating US dollars should increase. Now, it's a lot more complicated than that because um some of the deficit spending is in hopes of stimulating the economy in the future. It might be in the form of tax cuts or other other things. If it's spent productively, then what you hope is your tax revenue goes up. In other words, GDP growth goes up and therefore your your deficit to GDP ratio improves in the future. But from what I'm seeing right now, I think even that graphic um which is uh a few months old is probably out of date already. Um you know with what's being spent now in the Middle East and um you know tariffs are big question mark in terms of how much was collected, how much gets refunded. Um and then more importantly I would say the upcoming midterm elections. Yeah, I think spending by the US government is going to be rampant. Um they will spend whatever they need to to get reelected. Um and so I think um purchasing power is on the way down. So in other words, the value of fiat currencies is going down. um with other countries, you know, especially Europe um and Canada as well, what you're going to see is they're being forced to massively increase their defense budget. >> Yeah. >> So again, yeah, they're not going to cut expenses. It's going to come out of debt. Um yeah, and there's rationale for doing it, but what's going to happen is and there will be some productivity benefits and GDP growth from that as well, but overall, you're going to see those deficits increase. You're going to see debt go up. um that has been the trend that's going to continue and so currencies go down. >> I'm not a a believer that fiat currencies are worthless. I actually quite like the US dollar. I think there's a lot of value to it, but I just I look at, you know, what's happening and what it means to gold and I'd much rather hold gold um at this point than in US dollars. >> Well, Rob, this is from the Congressional Budget Office. They're projecting that by 2036, which is within the next 10 years, the net interest expenses outlays will double again. So currently, it's at around one, just under a trillion, $970 billion in fiscal year 2025. By 2036, they're projecting 2.1 trillion. In context, the federal receipts by uh tax revenues is currently standing at 5.2 trillion. So currently just under 20% of all tax receipts are going to interest payments. So that's expected to double in the next 10 years. Will there be a point where the interest expenses will be too much of a burden for the Treasury to handle? In other words, they can't they almost can't afford it without major cuts to other programs. Rob, >> yeah, I think 100%. And you know, the question is when. And typically you get forecasts that say oh yeah um you know pick a level but let's say you know if you have a debt that's 100% or more of GDP it's too high but we've seen you know most developing nations blow through that now so you know the question is when is that um typically it would be triggered by um a recession because then your your tax income drops um your expenses actually go up And that's when the situation um is at its worst. And you may very well see um potential lenders say or the bond vigilantes say, "Yeah, we're not funding any more of this." And you know, I think that is important because it's the only way that these governments will actually reduce spending because right now they they know if you want to get reelected, you just spend more. So ultimately, yeah, I think there's going to be some kind of financial crisis that will force um countries to actually re in their spending. Um it I don't see it happening yet in the near future, but I think it's inevitable. But is that really a problem on the nation state level though, Rob? Like if you and I have too much debt and we can't afford our debt payments or let's say a business can't afford their debt payments, you know, the business and or we just file for bankruptcy, we go under. Now, we can't print money. We can't create money supply to alleviate our debts, but the US Federal Reserve can and the Treasury can. So, ultimately, does it really matter for them? I mean, what is the recourse for the interest payment to go up to $2 trillion? They could just create money supply to help that situation, right? What is the recourse there? >> Yeah. No, I think that's a very good point. um because that's exactly what they can do. And I think that you know the the deficits and the debts have grown to the point now where just simply um adjusting some spending isn't going to do enough that it's going to solve your problem and reverse the trend. So from a government perspective, the easiest way out of this is to print money. Printing money equals inflation. And you know, the nice thing about inflation is that um you're paying off legacy debts with dollars that aren't worth as much. So yeah, I think inflation is a way out. And that's why I think um with central banks, I think you're going to see more leniency towards inflation. Um you know, used to be there was a target say of maybe 2%. Um, you know, I think banks are going to be comfortable with 3% or more if you even believe, you know, how they measure it and what the numbers are. Um, so yeah, I think you're going to see inflation creep up. You're going to see inflation be tolerated. Um, the problem with inflation is you just can't let it get out of hand because then rates need to rise. rising rates then increases that debt service cost which then compounds the problems that that you mentioned as well which is the costs are already getting quite high. So I think there's a fine balance. Um >> where does this train stop Rob? Because when things get more expensive you have more of the population like in New York for example uh demanding more affordable public services and you know their frustration is rightly justified. But then if you demand more free stuff, the government needs to spend more money and the deficit gets wider and then on and on we go because inflation goes higher from there. What is the solution here? Is there one? >> That is a good question. I don't have the answer to I don't know where I know the train will stop. Um I don't know when or exactly how but you know if you look at again using Japan as an example Japan has um debt to GDP that's over two times um and yet you know hasn't been the best economy but they've managed to survive and um they've live with that. So, you know, I don't >> maybe the solution is to force the interest rate to go back down near zero because Japan's JGB, while high by historical standards, is still low by G7 standards, >> right? >> Yeah. And it it may be something like that. Now I think the other point you allude to um is something that increasingly will become a problem and maybe that's what stops the train and that is you hear people talking about the K-shaped economy and in a nutshell what it is is if you think about the letter K the people who are on the upper leg of that are the ones with assets and those people whether you know it's commodities real estate equities bonds whatever. But people who have investments have been doing well postco the people on the other leg of the K that's pointing down are the ones without assets. They're living paycheck to paycheck. Um you know they're probably renting a house versus owning um and they're doing worse and worse and worse and there's a lot of them and each one in a democracy gets a vote. And so I think increasingly what you will see as well is those people are going to be unhappy. you're going to see more situations like California, like New York where people say tax the rich, you know, we need redistribution of wealth. Um, you know, we need to survive. And so that um and I think AI could worsen that. So I think increasingly that's going to be a problem. It's going to influence politics. is going to influence taxation and um I don't know what the solution is but um if that continues then yeah that large group of people on the bottom leg of the K >> are are going to disrupt everything. >> Well, what's your outlook on the labor market? >> Well, the recent I mean looking at the US the recent numbers are not really trending well. um you're not seeing a lot of job growth in the US. Now I think the impact of AI and with the US being a leader say US, China, you know, I think the impact of AI is going to be phenomenal but it's going to affect different groups disproportionately. Um, and I do believe, you know, there are people within the US government who are implementing some of these policies that may not seem like they're related to AI because of um what they think AI is going to do. And again, that's, you know, people sitting at desk working on computers, a lot of them are going to be replaced. Um, and so I think the workforce over time is going to have to go, you know, some of the the workforce is going to shift from, you know, working at a screen to working with their hands. And so, you know, I think um deporting people who perform manual labor, I think the reality is that it may be citizens now who need to do that work. Um, skilled trades, you're not going to replace those with AI. And so um yeah, the job market's going to shift. I think overall I think it's going to be tremendously positive for GDP. So I think you know it may be a solution where you see GDP rise and maybe debt to GDP or deficits to GDP do come down. Um I'm not sure. Um but yeah, I think um labor will shift. I just think it's uh yeah at the lower end it's going to be a lot more working with your hands and your body than your brain. >> So going back to commodities and we'll end it here. The opportunities that have um caught your attention the commodities metals um or assets that you think have the most potential right now besides gold which we've talked about extensively already. >> Yeah and let me just touch on gold before I answer your question. So the important thing to note about gold is gold prices are doing very well but we talked about currencies and inflation all that stuff and I think it's a very important point to say that those who are producing right now will do well. If you have um and I look at junior mining stocks but if you have something that's 5 years out and you say okay the the cost to build that I estimate in today's dollars is $500 million. Well I can tell you in 5 years it's not going to be $500 million. you're running at about 20% cost inflation right now. So, it could very well be a billion. So, one thing I don't like right now is people saying, "Oh, at spot prices and then our cost estimates, we're going to be printing money." Not necessarily. So, I really like um either producers or near-term producers in the gold space versus anything that's >> more than say three years out. >> Unless these producers are wasting their money on irrelevant purchases or acquisitions. Is that the case right now? >> Yeah, for sure. We're seeing more discipline than in past cycles. Okay. >> Um so that's good. But yeah, I'd much rather see um you know producing mines where the capital's been spent. >> Are they more disciplined because of just better fiscal uh uh systems or are they just cautious about this gold rally not being sustainable? In other words, nobody thinks it's here to stay. Which is it? Well, I think post uh 2011, I think they um >> were told by um investors that >> yeah, >> you know, what they did was irresponsible. Um they were poor stewards of capital and what they needed to do was return capital to shareholders. Um so I think they they really improved at that and we saw some horrible horrible deals um say between 2007 and 2011 where lots of money was wasted and so now you're seeing um you're seeing more transactions that make sense but it's for things like size index inclusion um not whereby um if commodity prices fall that tremendous value gets destroyed. Um, so I think it's really investor pressure to answer your question >> right now. Uh, copper again, all-time highs for copper. What's the appeal here even at all time highs? >> So, you know, I think in the short term, copper could pull back a little bit, uh, with, you know, the potential for tariffs. I think a bunch of copper got pulled into the US. um you may see some of that sell but long-term um just with again with AI AI electrification um you know combine it with EVs um energy production etc. I think the copper um story is phenomenal and that's because you just need so much of it for these new hyperscaler data centers. Um you also need to augment or you know seriously update the uh the electrical grid in many countries, US included and it's going to take a ton of copper. And so um you know you look at the forecasts you're going to need the equivalent of a couple of the world's biggest mines to come on stream every year. um that's not happening. Um so I think you're going to see prices go higher and in that space I'm really looking for explorers um because there's so much demand for these new projects um especially pfford projects which tend to have very big scale um I think the companies that find those are holding on to something very valuable in the future um just because of you know what I expect the world is going to need >> and in the junior space what are your criteria for evaluating minors right now they're not you know there's no there's no cash flow right so how do you >> how do you pick opportunities within the junior space >> so I mean it just boils down to riskreward um >> you know I tried to um look at the risks especially and look at the upside the thing is with the markets doing well it's actually skewed the numbers the wrong way so in many cases now with the juniors >> um the risks have have actually gone up because you know my downside is a more if commodity prices go down and the upside has diminished. Um, so in many cases I don't like the riskreward on juniors anymore. That's why I prefer producers. Um, but aside from that, it's the same as when gold was $2,000. It is quality jurisdictions. is projects with with grade with size in a jurisdiction where uh you can get permits, you can produce, it's not going to get nationalized, things like that. Um so it's the same as it always has been. It's, you know, it's not the lowgrade stuff that just because gold is at $5,100 you think it's productive. It's, you know, it's probably not. Um you know, the people obviously um and the trustworthiness of the people are key. And then you get into, you know, geology, metallergy, all the details and stuff. But yeah, it's the same as it always has been. Just quality, quality, quality. >> Okay, Rob. Excellent. Well, uh, let's follow up next time and, uh, we'll touch base on where gold and silver and the other metals and, uh, and, uh, assets you've discussed so far doing, then where can we follow your work right now? >> Uh, so we have a website where we produce research and market commentary. It's thew wealthyminer.com. >> Okay, we'll put the link down below. Make sure to follow uh Rob and the wealthyminer.com down there. Thank you, Rob. Good to see you. Thank you for coming on the show and we'll look forward to next time. >> Thanks, David. Look forward to it. >> Thanks for watching. Don't forget to like, subscribe.
Gold About To Double Again As Financial Crisis Now ‘Inevitable’ | Rob Bruggeman
Summary
Learn more about Starfighters Space at https://starfightersspace.com/ Rob Bruggeman, Co-Founder of The Wealthy Miner, and …Transcript
So ultimately, yeah, I think there's going to be some kind of financial crisis that will force um countries to actually reign in their spending. The nice thing about inflation, you're paying off legacy debts with dollars that aren't worth as much. So yeah, I think inflation is a way out. Gold prices are doing very well, but we talked about currencies and inflation, all that stuff. And I think it's a very important point to say that those who are producing right now will do well. We're now living in an era where investors and the markets overall are valuing commodities at unprecedented levels because society realizes how important they are and how scarce they are. The recent strikes on Iran have taught us this very valuable lesson. Oil is now trading above $80 a barrel. It was briefly at above $100 a barrel earlier this week, touching as high as 119. That's the highest it's been since uh the Ukraine invasion started in 2022. Gold, meanwhile, is back above $5,100. Uh, silver is still near its all-time highs. And so, what are the commodities complexes telling us about the future of our economy and where are the best opportunities now for investors? Rob Bergamman is here to join us today to talk about these opportunities. He's a co-founder of the Wealthy Miner and the director of Abba Silver Resource Corp. Welcome to the show, Rob. Good to see you. >> Hi, David. Thanks for having me on your show. It seems to me like I stated in the introduction that commodities are at a new zenith in terms of popularity. But are we at a market top or is this just the beginning? This is the question that so many investors have come up to me personally to ask. Where are we in the current cycle? Let's start there. Are we at a top for gold, silver, copper, platinum, palladium, and all these other metals? >> No, David, I don't think so. I think we're maybe halfway. Um, we have to see how things play out. And I like to think of myself just as an analyst. So, you know, as much as I would like the market to go somewhere or hope that it does, really, I just I react. But based on the analysis I've done on historical cycles and then the forces that I see influencing metal prices today, I would say there's significant more upside. Um, and then it'll probably overshoot at some point and then settle, you know, somewhere. Um, who knows where, but I think it's going to be higher than where we are today. um especially on uh gold and longer term. I just I love the setup for copper. >> Okay. Well, let's talk about gold first and uh why gold is behaving the way it is. Let me show you a chart of the gold price right now on my screen. And if I zoom out all the way to 2011, you'll see that it's kind of reflecting. We're repeating what happened in 2011. There was a top in September, came down a little bit, then another double top um and then stayed flat or rangebound for about a year before coming all the way back down and troughing in 2015. Right now, something similar has happened. We've had a top in uh the end of February. Gold has come down sharply intraday uh between February, end of February and March. Uh sorry, yeah, be end of Mar end of January rather and beginning of March. It's already come down 20%. So that was a local top. Now it's trailing sideways and slightly up and recovering from its losses in early February. What's different about now versus 2011 is my question. >> Yeah. So, you know, just looking at the chart, you can see why people are asking, hey, is this the top? Because the run we've had is just spectacular, especially if you look at at a uh regular scale chart. for sure. >> Um now if you include that cycle, the one leading up to 2011 as well as previous cycles and you put it um with a log scale, then all of a sudden this looks um similar to what we've seen in the past. Now, of course, every cycle is different. There are different factors. Um put very simply, um you know, it's what makes things go up is obviously more people buying and fewer people selling. um which then begets momentum etc etc. Um so the current cycle is it's different than 2011. Um it's also different than what we saw in the 70s but the underlying drivers are somewhat the same and it is uh well it's multifaceted and one thing is obviously it's measured in dollars and so we have to look hard at what is happening with the US dollar right now and what's going to happen with the US dollar and so how much of this is say a gold move up which is that supply and demand I alluded to versus how much is dollar action so you One thing I think that's very important is um if you look at not just the US but around the world developed economies if you look at their debt to GDP it's been climbing climbing climbing and for the US it's now back up to where it was post World War II. So this is rather unprecedented. The only one that's way ahead is obviously Japan. Um but you know what this demonstrates is governments around the world um have a spending problem. Um and as long as bond markets don't force them to rein it in um they'd rather spend much more than they take in. That was really accelerated by COVID. during COVID obviously um disruptive time um people losing jobs and so there was a massive influx of government spending um what governments realized was the the voters loved that they didn't care if it was being financed by debt they loved their handouts um and so I think since 2020 so even though this is now past CO we haven't really seen that spending slow down that much. So, um, yeah, and I think it's going to accelerate again in the US leading into midterms because it's the easiest way to get reelected. You just hand people money that's either paid by somebody else or financed by debt. But the reason that's significant when you look at gold is the more money you print, the less the purchasing power is. So I think globally what we're seeing with all of this massive spending deficits and debt, you're seeing the purchasing power of fiat currencies erode. And that's why we're seeing most hard assets go up. you know, some nuances in real estate, but overall, um, you know, I think any hard asset, whether it's real estate, infrastructure, um, base metals, precious metals, oil, they're all going up in part because they're measured in dollar terms, let's say. Um, so, you know, that in itself is good for gold if you measure in US dollars. But the other thing that's happening that's really significant in this cycle and I think is is largely unprecedented um compared to past cycles is that you've got a couple of other things happening at the same time with the dollar. You've got diversification and you've got potential debasement. So, by diversification, what I mean is um in the past, the US dollar was really the go-to currency. And so, if other countries had extra money, a safe bet was to hold it in US dollars and maybe buy treasuries or something like that. the US started getting more hostile with China and so we saw them reduce their um foreign reserves held in US dollars and we started seeing them buy more gold. Um now I think we've seen that in other countries as well and I think we see it accelerate because when you look at the trade friction being created by the US it's significant. So if you're for example in Germany and you've got you large US treasury reserves and the US says hey we don't really like um this trade imbalance we have we want to onshore a number of jobs and so we're going to slap some tariffs on you um and at the same time also saying hey if uh you know if you get invaded we may not be there for you because we think your um defense spending is too low. I think you have to take a step back if you're this using the Germans as an example just the government there and you say hey should we be holding US dollars you know I think the smarter play for these countries right now is to diversify those holdings into gold and that we're that's what we're seeing what that also leads to is then potential US dollar debasement the US dollar was the again the go-to currency for trade settlement Um try China has recently been trying to change that somewhat so far unsuccessfully. Um but also that was part of the genesis of the euro. It was an alternative to the US dollar. Now it hasn't really succeeded. Um so the US dollar is still king but I think you have people looking for alternatives and there are rumors that China may potentially come up with something new that's going to be backed by the u uh sorry by gold as opposed to US dollar. So there all these major um forces underpinning the move in gold and I don't see them um subsiding yet. I think gold may have more to run and based on past cycles um where gold has gone up six to seven times. Right now we're up three times. So I could still see gold doubling. Before we continue with the video, I want to bring to your attention one of the few space related companies in the public markets right now, Starf Fighters. Today's sponsor, Starf Fighter Space, is an aerospace company operating the world's only commercial fleet of Mach 2 capable Lockheed F104 aircraft. They are based out of NASA's Kennedy Space Center and focus on hypersonic air launch testing and micro satellite deployment aiming to reduce costs and timelines compared to traditional launch methods. The company has worked with organizations like NASA, Loheed Martin, GE, and the US Air Force. They completed a regulation A+ race in December 2025 and went public under the ticker FJ earlier this year. If this is something you want to look into, talk to your financial adviser and start your own due diligence on Starf Fighter space. You can scan the QR code here or go to the link in the description to learn more. And don't forget to read all the risk disclosures and filings. what would need to change in the world for you to make the assessment that the momentum of gold is about to stall? In other words, these forces that you described, what would need to happen for them to reverse and change your mind on gold? >> So, I think you know what we just saw in the Middle East, um you've seen oil skyrocket and gold actually pull back, although it's recovering nicely. >> Yeah. Um but that you know that's a temporary example of what's happening and that's because when you have something like uh the invasion of Iran there's a flight to safety and again the easiest thing is just buy dollars you know go to safety and so I think that's what's happened recently you've seen the dollar go up and gold is kind of it's actually done very well but it's it's kind of paused its move upward. So, you know, I think your question is really what could change these factors that I'm talking about? And probably the biggest um I don't know if you call it risk, but the biggest potential driver of that would be midterm elections in the US. >> Okay? because a lot of this is being driven by Republican party policies or US government policies that are upsetting um globalization trade as well as you all this pressure on things like defense spending. So I think that's probably the biggest risk on gold. Um you know obviously midterms are in November but we'll see how the polls are and what uh what the Republicans do to try to hold on to power. But if they're a lame duck government, um although Trump will still try to do things by way of executive orders, it's going to be much harder and then I think the US dollar could recover and then that's going to hamper um the upside on gold. The Trump administration has taken several measures to bolster the dollar. Trump has believed that a strong dollar is part of his agenda. So let's evaluate some of these measures uh because we're discussing whether or not a stronger dollar will have an adverse impact on gold. So the make the dollar great again kind of trade or approach it involves strengthening the dollar through different financial tools and trade policies. Trump has outright threatened countries with more additional tariffs if they stop using the dollar as a medium of exchange like you stated earlier. Uh he's also uh he's also um supported aggressive tariffs which one would argue long-term is bullish for the dollar. uh he has he has um called on the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates which arguably arguably may be bullish for the dollar long term if you're thinking about economic stimulus uh making uh American trade more appealing but in the short term maybe not. So maybe help us evaluate some of Trump's fiscal policies and trade policies and whether or not they will drive more demand for the dollar in the short term. >> Sure. Yeah. So, what we've seen um is, yeah, we'll start with the US Fed. Um, you're going to see a new Fed chair. I believe it's in June. Um, and obviously Trump wanted to pick a Fed who is uh likely to lower rates. Now, those are short-term rates, but um lower rates and I think shifting focus to employment versus inflation um which can then justify lower rates. I think that makes the dollar weaker. Um, you know, the Fed does not really control longer term rates, however, um, not at least with, um, interest rate policy, but with quantitative easing. Um, that's the case. So, yeah, I think I think Trump and the Republicans actually want a weaker dollar, and they've talked about onshoring more manufacturing jobs. Um I think even um some of the moves in immigration so u or not immigration per se but immigrants or illegal immigrants or migrants or whatever you want to call them. >> Yeah. >> Um I I think is linked as well and part of it probably is concern about the future impact of AI. So I think um the US government is looking at um a weaker dollar so that they can export more goods and create manufacturing jobs and it's going to be instead of more jobs and services which may be at risk because of AI I think it's going to be more hands-on stuff you know and construction and trades but things that can't be replaced by AI and so you know I think the US will actually benefit from a weaker dollar in in large part. So um that's kind of what I see for the uh foreseeable future. I think also you know people talk about US dollar exceptionalism. So the US economy has done so well. Um the US dollar is the you undisputed reserve currency. Um but I think we're we're seeing that change and they're okay with that. This is an article or uh a a piece written by Amundi Investment Solutions. Um I'm just going to read a few paragraphs here. From 2022 to 2024, net central bank gold purchases more than doubled, surpassing 1,000 tons on a yearly basis. The search is primarily driven by central banks in Asia, including those of China, India, and Japan, as well as the emerging markets more broadly. And here's a chart that they have here showing central banks holdings in gold as a percentage of total in a three-month average basis. And you can see it's rising at the fastest pace since the mid90s. Now, uh the factors that have incentivized central banks around the world to to to buy gold. Uh this article states that uh uh the gold price rally signals more than just a market trend. It indicates it indicates in our view the beginning of a gradual transition from a US- ccentric international monetary system to a more multipolar one. So my question is Rob, we know that some of these forces that have prompted central banks and other entities, institutional funds to look into gold, perhaps they haven't gone away yet, but I've also been told that central banks are quite price sensitive. In other words, they were more likely to buy when the price is relatively low and buy less or perhaps even sell when prices have gone up enough. I'm not calling central banks hedge funds, but that has been their buying pattern in the past. So if you were a central bank for either China or Japan or even you know a Eastern European central bank, how would you evaluate the current conditions for gold, the current price and factor that into your decision as to whether or not to buy more gold today? Yes, I think there's some um investor psychology always which uh you prefer to buy things at low prices but you know if you look way back at um central bank gold holdings for a long time they were on decline um you know from I guess the 1980s into the 2000s and then that that changed um and I think now increasingly these central banks see the value of diversifying their holdings and you know I think the price is actually confirming the value of gold versus especially uh US dollar holdings. The you know the knock against gold which is legitimate is that it doesn't pay any interest. So at least um if you hold treasuries then you're getting paid interest on those holdings which you don't get on gold. So that's really uh the big negative on gold. Um but with all the you know these major tectonic shifts in global trade and um geopolitics um I think more than ever there's a lot of stability from holding gold. Um the other thing I would point out is you know when you're a central bank or uh a government it's not your money. Um, so you know, if you think it adds stability, um, I think you just you pull the trigger, it's working, you buy more gold. We've seen, you know, for example, Poland is a big buyer of gold. Um, I think it, you know, strategically it also gives you some ammo in terms of negotiation with the US. So I think you may see some of that where they say okay well you know give us favorable trade policies or else we may diversify our holdings. Um and then in some cases you know perhaps China and certainly the case with Russia and uh those who are maybe not allied with the US. Um the other thing that comes into play is um you can hold gold um securely and keep control of it. So for example with Russia they had foreign reserves held in US dollars and a number of those um got seized. So you know that's a risk you don't have with gold. So I think increasingly for example with China that may be a consideration. So you know there's always lots of noise about Taiwan. Um yeah I think for China it's probably you'd rather hold gold than US treasuries. Um especially if if something happens. So I think um and then yeah there's something to be said about again investor psychology momentum trading I think is as long as we see gold continuing to go up um we'll probably see more central bank buying. Uh there's a little bit of chatter but it's out of really um second or third tier countries about >> selling some and that's just because they need the money. Um but uh yeah, I think we'll continue to see uh gold holdings at central banks continue to increase. >> Here I'm going to show you a uh chart showing the US surplus or deficit. This is from the St. Louis Fed. I'm just going to show uh and here we have uh just in millions of dollars uh the deficit peaked um around COVID and now it's sitting around $1.7 trillion. Is there a relationship between I mean on paper there isn't a direct correlation but is there just broadly speaking a fundamental relationship between the amount of spending that the government undertakes versus receipts in other words the deficit or surplus versus the gold price or gold demand overall. >> Yeah definitely. So again that goes back to purchasing power right. So the more money you print or the more debt you take on um the relative to GDP then the lower um the purchasing power is of each dollar. And so even if gold on its own does nothing if that devalues say whatever your benchmark is the US dollar then yeah gold prices denominating US dollars should increase. Now, it's a lot more complicated than that because um some of the deficit spending is in hopes of stimulating the economy in the future. It might be in the form of tax cuts or other other things. If it's spent productively, then what you hope is your tax revenue goes up. In other words, GDP growth goes up and therefore your your deficit to GDP ratio improves in the future. But from what I'm seeing right now, I think even that graphic um which is uh a few months old is probably out of date already. Um you know with what's being spent now in the Middle East and um you know tariffs are big question mark in terms of how much was collected, how much gets refunded. Um and then more importantly I would say the upcoming midterm elections. Yeah, I think spending by the US government is going to be rampant. Um they will spend whatever they need to to get reelected. Um and so I think um purchasing power is on the way down. So in other words, the value of fiat currencies is going down. um with other countries, you know, especially Europe um and Canada as well, what you're going to see is they're being forced to massively increase their defense budget. >> Yeah. >> So again, yeah, they're not going to cut expenses. It's going to come out of debt. Um yeah, and there's rationale for doing it, but what's going to happen is and there will be some productivity benefits and GDP growth from that as well, but overall, you're going to see those deficits increase. You're going to see debt go up. um that has been the trend that's going to continue and so currencies go down. >> I'm not a a believer that fiat currencies are worthless. I actually quite like the US dollar. I think there's a lot of value to it, but I just I look at, you know, what's happening and what it means to gold and I'd much rather hold gold um at this point than in US dollars. >> Well, Rob, this is from the Congressional Budget Office. They're projecting that by 2036, which is within the next 10 years, the net interest expenses outlays will double again. So currently, it's at around one, just under a trillion, $970 billion in fiscal year 2025. By 2036, they're projecting 2.1 trillion. In context, the federal receipts by uh tax revenues is currently standing at 5.2 trillion. So currently just under 20% of all tax receipts are going to interest payments. So that's expected to double in the next 10 years. Will there be a point where the interest expenses will be too much of a burden for the Treasury to handle? In other words, they can't they almost can't afford it without major cuts to other programs. Rob, >> yeah, I think 100%. And you know, the question is when. And typically you get forecasts that say oh yeah um you know pick a level but let's say you know if you have a debt that's 100% or more of GDP it's too high but we've seen you know most developing nations blow through that now so you know the question is when is that um typically it would be triggered by um a recession because then your your tax income drops um your expenses actually go up And that's when the situation um is at its worst. And you may very well see um potential lenders say or the bond vigilantes say, "Yeah, we're not funding any more of this." And you know, I think that is important because it's the only way that these governments will actually reduce spending because right now they they know if you want to get reelected, you just spend more. So ultimately, yeah, I think there's going to be some kind of financial crisis that will force um countries to actually re in their spending. Um it I don't see it happening yet in the near future, but I think it's inevitable. But is that really a problem on the nation state level though, Rob? Like if you and I have too much debt and we can't afford our debt payments or let's say a business can't afford their debt payments, you know, the business and or we just file for bankruptcy, we go under. Now, we can't print money. We can't create money supply to alleviate our debts, but the US Federal Reserve can and the Treasury can. So, ultimately, does it really matter for them? I mean, what is the recourse for the interest payment to go up to $2 trillion? They could just create money supply to help that situation, right? What is the recourse there? >> Yeah. No, I think that's a very good point. um because that's exactly what they can do. And I think that you know the the deficits and the debts have grown to the point now where just simply um adjusting some spending isn't going to do enough that it's going to solve your problem and reverse the trend. So from a government perspective, the easiest way out of this is to print money. Printing money equals inflation. And you know, the nice thing about inflation is that um you're paying off legacy debts with dollars that aren't worth as much. So yeah, I think inflation is a way out. And that's why I think um with central banks, I think you're going to see more leniency towards inflation. Um you know, used to be there was a target say of maybe 2%. Um, you know, I think banks are going to be comfortable with 3% or more if you even believe, you know, how they measure it and what the numbers are. Um, so yeah, I think you're going to see inflation creep up. You're going to see inflation be tolerated. Um, the problem with inflation is you just can't let it get out of hand because then rates need to rise. rising rates then increases that debt service cost which then compounds the problems that that you mentioned as well which is the costs are already getting quite high. So I think there's a fine balance. Um >> where does this train stop Rob? Because when things get more expensive you have more of the population like in New York for example uh demanding more affordable public services and you know their frustration is rightly justified. But then if you demand more free stuff, the government needs to spend more money and the deficit gets wider and then on and on we go because inflation goes higher from there. What is the solution here? Is there one? >> That is a good question. I don't have the answer to I don't know where I know the train will stop. Um I don't know when or exactly how but you know if you look at again using Japan as an example Japan has um debt to GDP that's over two times um and yet you know hasn't been the best economy but they've managed to survive and um they've live with that. So, you know, I don't >> maybe the solution is to force the interest rate to go back down near zero because Japan's JGB, while high by historical standards, is still low by G7 standards, >> right? >> Yeah. And it it may be something like that. Now I think the other point you allude to um is something that increasingly will become a problem and maybe that's what stops the train and that is you hear people talking about the K-shaped economy and in a nutshell what it is is if you think about the letter K the people who are on the upper leg of that are the ones with assets and those people whether you know it's commodities real estate equities bonds whatever. But people who have investments have been doing well postco the people on the other leg of the K that's pointing down are the ones without assets. They're living paycheck to paycheck. Um you know they're probably renting a house versus owning um and they're doing worse and worse and worse and there's a lot of them and each one in a democracy gets a vote. And so I think increasingly what you will see as well is those people are going to be unhappy. you're going to see more situations like California, like New York where people say tax the rich, you know, we need redistribution of wealth. Um, you know, we need to survive. And so that um and I think AI could worsen that. So I think increasingly that's going to be a problem. It's going to influence politics. is going to influence taxation and um I don't know what the solution is but um if that continues then yeah that large group of people on the bottom leg of the K >> are are going to disrupt everything. >> Well, what's your outlook on the labor market? >> Well, the recent I mean looking at the US the recent numbers are not really trending well. um you're not seeing a lot of job growth in the US. Now I think the impact of AI and with the US being a leader say US, China, you know, I think the impact of AI is going to be phenomenal but it's going to affect different groups disproportionately. Um, and I do believe, you know, there are people within the US government who are implementing some of these policies that may not seem like they're related to AI because of um what they think AI is going to do. And again, that's, you know, people sitting at desk working on computers, a lot of them are going to be replaced. Um, and so I think the workforce over time is going to have to go, you know, some of the the workforce is going to shift from, you know, working at a screen to working with their hands. And so, you know, I think um deporting people who perform manual labor, I think the reality is that it may be citizens now who need to do that work. Um, skilled trades, you're not going to replace those with AI. And so um yeah, the job market's going to shift. I think overall I think it's going to be tremendously positive for GDP. So I think you know it may be a solution where you see GDP rise and maybe debt to GDP or deficits to GDP do come down. Um I'm not sure. Um but yeah, I think um labor will shift. I just think it's uh yeah at the lower end it's going to be a lot more working with your hands and your body than your brain. >> So going back to commodities and we'll end it here. The opportunities that have um caught your attention the commodities metals um or assets that you think have the most potential right now besides gold which we've talked about extensively already. >> Yeah and let me just touch on gold before I answer your question. So the important thing to note about gold is gold prices are doing very well but we talked about currencies and inflation all that stuff and I think it's a very important point to say that those who are producing right now will do well. If you have um and I look at junior mining stocks but if you have something that's 5 years out and you say okay the the cost to build that I estimate in today's dollars is $500 million. Well I can tell you in 5 years it's not going to be $500 million. you're running at about 20% cost inflation right now. So, it could very well be a billion. So, one thing I don't like right now is people saying, "Oh, at spot prices and then our cost estimates, we're going to be printing money." Not necessarily. So, I really like um either producers or near-term producers in the gold space versus anything that's >> more than say three years out. >> Unless these producers are wasting their money on irrelevant purchases or acquisitions. Is that the case right now? >> Yeah, for sure. We're seeing more discipline than in past cycles. Okay. >> Um so that's good. But yeah, I'd much rather see um you know producing mines where the capital's been spent. >> Are they more disciplined because of just better fiscal uh uh systems or are they just cautious about this gold rally not being sustainable? In other words, nobody thinks it's here to stay. Which is it? Well, I think post uh 2011, I think they um >> were told by um investors that >> yeah, >> you know, what they did was irresponsible. Um they were poor stewards of capital and what they needed to do was return capital to shareholders. Um so I think they they really improved at that and we saw some horrible horrible deals um say between 2007 and 2011 where lots of money was wasted and so now you're seeing um you're seeing more transactions that make sense but it's for things like size index inclusion um not whereby um if commodity prices fall that tremendous value gets destroyed. Um, so I think it's really investor pressure to answer your question >> right now. Uh, copper again, all-time highs for copper. What's the appeal here even at all time highs? >> So, you know, I think in the short term, copper could pull back a little bit, uh, with, you know, the potential for tariffs. I think a bunch of copper got pulled into the US. um you may see some of that sell but long-term um just with again with AI AI electrification um you know combine it with EVs um energy production etc. I think the copper um story is phenomenal and that's because you just need so much of it for these new hyperscaler data centers. Um you also need to augment or you know seriously update the uh the electrical grid in many countries, US included and it's going to take a ton of copper. And so um you know you look at the forecasts you're going to need the equivalent of a couple of the world's biggest mines to come on stream every year. um that's not happening. Um so I think you're going to see prices go higher and in that space I'm really looking for explorers um because there's so much demand for these new projects um especially pfford projects which tend to have very big scale um I think the companies that find those are holding on to something very valuable in the future um just because of you know what I expect the world is going to need >> and in the junior space what are your criteria for evaluating minors right now they're not you know there's no there's no cash flow right so how do you >> how do you pick opportunities within the junior space >> so I mean it just boils down to riskreward um >> you know I tried to um look at the risks especially and look at the upside the thing is with the markets doing well it's actually skewed the numbers the wrong way so in many cases now with the juniors >> um the risks have have actually gone up because you know my downside is a more if commodity prices go down and the upside has diminished. Um, so in many cases I don't like the riskreward on juniors anymore. That's why I prefer producers. Um, but aside from that, it's the same as when gold was $2,000. It is quality jurisdictions. is projects with with grade with size in a jurisdiction where uh you can get permits, you can produce, it's not going to get nationalized, things like that. Um so it's the same as it always has been. It's, you know, it's not the lowgrade stuff that just because gold is at $5,100 you think it's productive. It's, you know, it's probably not. Um you know, the people obviously um and the trustworthiness of the people are key. And then you get into, you know, geology, metallergy, all the details and stuff. But yeah, it's the same as it always has been. Just quality, quality, quality. >> Okay, Rob. Excellent. Well, uh, let's follow up next time and, uh, we'll touch base on where gold and silver and the other metals and, uh, and, uh, assets you've discussed so far doing, then where can we follow your work right now? >> Uh, so we have a website where we produce research and market commentary. It's thew wealthyminer.com. >> Okay, we'll put the link down below. Make sure to follow uh Rob and the wealthyminer.com down there. Thank you, Rob. Good to see you. Thank you for coming on the show and we'll look forward to next time. >> Thanks, David. Look forward to it. >> Thanks for watching. Don't forget to like, subscribe.