How Do Prospect Generators Actually Create Shareholder Value? | Mundoro Capital CEO Interview

Summary

• Business Model: Mundoro Capital (MUN) pitches a prospect/royalty generator approach focused on copper porphyries, using partner funding to reduce dilution while retaining NSR royalties and fees.
• Key Partnership: BHP (BHP) can earn 100% of Mundoro’s Central Timok assets in Serbia by spending $35M over 10 years plus escalating annual option payments, with Mundoro keeping a 2% NSR.
• Active Exploration: Multiple targets in the Timok complex with 8,000–12,000 meters of drilling planned; BHP-operated drilling is underway with assays and follow-up programs expected.
• Geographic Focus: Bullish on Serbia and Eastern Europe for copper due to strong existing infrastructure; advancing Arizona projects with plans to secure one or multiple partners.
• Copper Outlook: Emphasis on Tier-1 copper porphyry discovery potential and the attractive economics in Timok; supportive U.S. policy backdrop improves outlook for Arizona copper.
• Financial Discipline: No debt, ~C$4.5M cash, corporate spend about C$1–1.25M/year; portfolio revenues (option payments, operator fees, milestones) help offset G&A; conservative marketing spend.
• Risks: Permitting and election-driven delays (Serbia/Bulgaria), partner control over pace and technical decisions, geological complexity of undercover drilling, and potential partner exits.
• Value Proposition: Upside from discovery plus high-value 2% NSR potential on major copper finds, while partner-funded exploration mitigates downside for shareholders.

Transcript

Today on the CEO barbecue, we're looking at a prospect generator by the name of Mandoro Capital. For a bullet point summary of this and all other CEO interviews, please go to resource talks.com and subscribe to our free weekly newsletter. The company you're about to hear from has not paid us for the production of this interview, but this interview is still intended only for experienced speculators because this is venture capital and mining is a very risky industry where failure is the norm. All conversations are general and impersonal in nature and they contain forwardlooking statements. I'm not a licensed financial adviser and my business sells content producing services which also makes me biased. So before continuing on, please talk to an independent investment adviser with a good long-term track record because your capital is at risk and also visit setterplus.ca where you'll find the company's official filings. If you're not 100% sure you understand all the biases and the disclaimers that I just showed you, please go to the last section of this video and do not consume this content unless you fully understand and agree with everything said herein. That all said, Muro is a classic prospect generator/royalty generator setup right now where they generate exploration targets. They bring in partners to spend the big bucks and uh if the geology is kind to them, they keep a royalty plus option payments and uh and operator fees while while trying to avoid the the death spiral of of dilution which often plagues our sector. Although Manduro has quite a lot of moving particles and in the portfolio which we'll talk about uh later on, the center of gravity for the company now is the Timmok magmatic complex in Serbia where they've recently signed an option agreement covering seven exploration licenses in um in what is now called Central Timok with BHP. BHP is now able to earn 100% of the assets by funding $35 million over a period of 10 years. Plus, there's an annual option payment fee which starts at 300 at about 300 grand 323,000 to be specific per year and then it steps up by 2% per year during the uh the 10-year period. So, in total, we're talking about three $3.5 million here. But, Muro also receives operating fees, which I'll ask about later on. And then if BHP goes through uh the entire process, likes what they're seeing, um uh does a spend, gets the option payments through and whatnot, Maduro then at the end keeps a 2% NSR royalty. Um this is really where the majority of the focus will be this year. There's going to be multiple targets. There's going to be uh drilling, which we'll talk about as well, which is actually started already all happening by BHP. Uh outside of Serbia, the other moving parts are um really there's a few, but one of them is a jog uh Ern JV at the Escer project which is in northwestern Bulgaria. It's um it's a piece of land that has some permitting challenges that but those are expected to be resolved in mid 2026 though uh dealing with NOS's I've been told. U never really fun. So we will end up touching upon that later on as well. Outside of the Balkans, there's um there really a few projects. There's a a few 100% owned Arizona projects that Manduro has been trying to partner out. So, an update on that would be welcome as well. And um they also have a few legacy equity investments, but as far as I understand it, they're relatively small and none of them are going to be the main value driver for the company. So, really the the 2026 plan seems rather simple here. There's between 8 and 12,000 mters of drilling expected between three projects and they're going to be looking for partners on the three drill ready projects. um none of which is risk-free of course. So I'll be asking about all the risks and challenges later on in the conversation as well. Now for some of the numbers and a little bit more of the details. Muro is listed as MUN. So that's MU N on the TSXV where the average 3-mon volume is about 70,000 units. The stock's 52-we high is 77 cents and its 52- week low is 15. with 111 million shares outstanding and a $61 million market cap. Today, this is a 55 cent stock with a 50 and a 200 day moving average at respectively 32 and 25. Notably though, and um something that I quite like actually, there are no warrants and uh there just about 9 million options outstanding bringing the number of fully diluted shares to about 120 million. they were able to do uh financing recently at 26 cents with uh with no warrants. So that's something that I I hope we can uh talk about as well when it comes down to talking about future financings. Um talking about money, the cash position that I have uh is actually from quite a long time ago. It's actually from September of last year. It was $4.2 million at the time. It was supplemented by prepaid expenses and account receivables that had them at close to $6 million in current assets, no long-term debt, and only about a million in account payables. The 9-month period that ended on September 30 earned them about $1.1 million in fees and option payments, and the corporate expense was about a million dollars at the time. Um, will that non-exportion expense go up though now that we are in a bull market? Are they going to do more marketing? Those are also going to be part of the questions later on in the conversation. Now, if it is to actually become a conversation though, I'm going to have to consider shutting up already. And uh Tio, I'll give you the word here. But first of all, thank you for sitting down with me today. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> Well, I'm looking forward to uh going going over the basics here in in a minute. Um but just before we get into that, there's actually some serious business. Probably the most impactful question here on the barbecue. How do you like your steak? >> Medium rare. That's the only right answer. I just had someone told me uh he liked it. He liked it. Well done. And I was like, "Oh, should I just close my laptop and pretend that the Wi-Fi got cut off?" Um, jokes aside though, I I am looking forward to better understanding how you how you operate. Um, but it might be a better idea to understand what you're really doing before we get into into the how uh and what you're really building here because on on the surface it looks like this going to be the traditional prospect generator model um and and that's what you want to run but but is it or do you see yourself eventually drilling your own properties and becoming kind of a a hybrid which seems to be popular right now as well? That is a really good question and I guess you know partially to answer that uh it depends on what you think a traditional generator is. Um you know you put the word in front of their prospect some people put in front of their project some people put in front of their royalty. Um so what is actually a generator and I think more broadly uh and how does that compare to your belief versus my belief? Um, as you know, I used to be in equity research, so I love data and I think data says a lot about our sector. Uh, you can get a lot of valuable insights. I'm not sure if you share slides on these um forums, but there is a great slide on our website uh in our corporate presentation, which maybe maybe you'll pull up afterwards um that kind of shows the full gambit of who are the generators, who are the um royalty companies, and then who are the in between and how are they meshing together. Now, that's not to be confused with a hybrid, which is the term you used. Uh, a hybrid is what we see as partially a generator, partially an exploration company, and trying to marry those two business models in order to, you know, move forward their strategy. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. So, let me just say that off off the cusp. It's it's really important that whatever your strategy is, you know how to do it exceptionally well and better than your peers so that you can excel. So if you end up choosing being a hybrid or you end up choosing being a prospect generator or a generator or a royalty generator, whatever your your business model is, you just need to have deep deep knowledge on what makes that particular strategy successful. for your assets and your team because that there is there is no one you know answer for every company. So that's kind of the the framework. So when you look at that slide basically what we try and show is okay so here's what um the metrics we use. We try and show well what exactly is a generator? In theory, a generator is a company that has a portfolio of projects, but is actually driving revenue from that portfolio. Because you're going to hear a lot of exploration companies say, "Oh, we have a portfolio of of properties, but they raise and they fund all of those projects." And some will be less strategic, others will be more strategic for them. But fundamentally, if you're a generator, your one of your primary missions should be to generate a return from that portfolio. Take that return, reinvest it into the portfolio to continue growing, all without in theory going back to the market, raising capital. Because now what you're doing is creating a portfolio of opportunities for your shareholder base where they can still have that massive exploration upside from any one of those assets, but that exploration upside is paid for by the partner or the option or or whatever you want to, you know, there's all sorts of different uh terms that people use. >> So if that's the business model, who's actually doing it? Okay. So, in slide 10, we show that group and there, you know, to get on this list, you have to make a minimum of $100,000 over a consecutive three-year consecutive period from your portfolio. It's a very, very low threshold. And you can see there's actually not a lot of companies that do this consistently. And and ideally, they're messaging that to the marketplace. uh Manduro we're right in the midpack and we're right in that transition point you know where you go from uh pure prospect generating project generating uh into and then you've got the royalties on uh companies on the far west or far left hand side of the chart uh which are just financial engineering right like you are you're borrowing money and you're reinvesting it into an asset where you believe you're going to get a stronger return for that investment than what you've borrowed, paid interest on, and fundamentally paid for that asset. So, financial engineering, royalty companies, exploration, generators. And so, where do you get real real what we call exceptional performance return on an asset? That is through the generators. So, you're not going to get that. you're going to get great dividends and stability and um what we call kind of more of a defensive allocation in your portfolio. But when you get into the generators here, what I like to, you know, explain to investors is that you're getting the best of both worlds. You're getting that great exploration upside which, you know, uh why are you in the junior space? Because you want to be part of a discovery. you want to make that 10 times on your investment. You still have that opportunity in a generator. And really what you're doing now is you're controlling the downside as a company, as a management team. So you're giving them the upside, but you're controlling the downside because the portfolio is funding the work, right? So that that I think is fundamental in understanding this business model. So, kind of let's go back a little bit in time. Let's go back to 1999. I'm really going to date myself here. And this is when I was doing equity research. And I remember seeing a few generators come across and I'm like, "Wow, these companies, they have like 300 assets. How do they keep track of all these things?" Like, and how do they know what the value is for one versus another? It So, there are different types of generators. for for Maduro and for me personally, my model is to really focus on a few a handful of assets that we believe have strong potential for a discovery and partner those with the majors. Our north star is copper. So we're we're very very much focused on copper pferies and we can come back to that in terms of why because it's it's been quite an interesting journey over the last 15 years. But fundamentally focus on a tighter portfolio. Do do more work on that portfolio. focus on the majors and really uh excel in that portfolio rather than going to a region picking up assets, you know, sending them off into the hands of juniors and you know, having 300 assets and kind of working more on a on a you know, numbers, probabilities, um let's call it relationship, business plan versus, you know, we really are doing exploration uh but we're doing it in a in a fashion where it's designed for senior companies, it's designed for copper and it's designed for what we believe uh you know it's not one in a thousand but perhaps you know one in 25 uh opportunities that will be successful. >> It's kind of funny when you asked why are you in juniors I I had kind of a mini existential crisis there. I'm like why am I not doing well now? I do want to know more about that, but people listening should also want to know more about Terara Hutton, who doesn't only make the invisible investable, but they've made this video free of YouTube ads by sponsoring it. Terra Hutton is built for the people who are tired of going through boring PowerPoint decks and geological jargon when they're analyzing mining companies. It's a digital platform where the data, the story, and the context sit together so mining investors can use visuals to understand the why without needing a geology degree or a week off work. And if you're on the company side, it's a great way to present your project like a serious operator with everything investors keep asking for in one place. Contact them at terrauden.io. What about the long term though to you? Do you see yourself building and and running this company essentially in in perpetuity because this is one of the few business models that you could do that within juniors or are you kind of building for an exit and and eventually a takeover here? >> Oh yeah. I mean I I so I've been at Maduro since 2006 so I'm kind of in here 20 years. Uh I could easily do this for another 20 years. Um it is a fantastic business model. It is a fantastic way in order to deploy dedicated talent to solving one specific question and that is where do we find another major copper deposit that has the ability to be a real impact to copper supply. So I don't think that question will ever become boring. I don't think uh we are ever going to be without the need of copper. So, you know, fundamentally, the easy answer to your question is yes, easily I could do this for another 20 years. >> You've been with Muro since 2006. I didn't know they let 18year-olds become CEOs of companies, but it is good to know. Um, you're uh you're opening up interesting topics uh here which which I'm writing down for later. But it is your first time on the barbecue. So, we'll have to take a step back and go through what I call the smell test, which is aimed at uh understanding the incentives and the track record of management. Starting, of course, with with yourself as CEO and your track record. Uh yeah, talk to me about who you are and and um have you made more money for shareholders in your career so far than than what you've spent? I hope so. But probably the best person to ask is our shareholders um rather than you know management. Um I think it's really so I I think one way to really answer that question is to look at the shareholder base. Who are the shareholders and why are they with the company? So our shareholders, some of them have been with us for well over 10 years. I don't think there is a shareholder out there that would stay with a company for 10 years if they genuinely did not believe that management was uh allocating their capital correctly, creating the opportunity that they promised and delivering on what they have promised to their shareholders. Um I think that you know it's it's a great way to say well have have you made a discovery? Um, so obviously if you look at Manduro's portfolio, we have not made a discovery. We have we don't have a major uh copper deposit today. Does that mean we're never going to make a discovery? Absolutely not. And until the moment that you make the discovery, does that mean the person is less intelligent or more intelligent? I think it is really really important to understand what is actually success in specifically and and you know I'm not talking like broadly or existentially but really what is success in exploration and fundamentally what can cause success in exploration and I think it's teams having the right team in place with the right skills uh I think fundamentally it's super critically important to be able to collaborate uh outside of the the core team so to bring in the right expertise in order to ask that critical question of you know what is it exactly that the next phase of capital what's that decision point that it needs to answer and then what is the best way to do that and what's the most efficient way to do that what's what's like actually you know without blowing a budget but without being too frugal and it's it's a an important balancing act so I think that is what we do exceptionally well we do that extremely well for our partners which is I think uh you know works for both sides. So you know your question of have we made money for our shareholders? Well, we want to make a 10 bagger but that depends like did you get involved with us when we were trading at 5 cents 10 cents or did you get involved with us when we were trading at $3 which was even before my time. Um it's it's you know I think it's a relative question. I think fundamentally what you need to be asking yourself is why is this the right management team for this strategy and how can they outperform? If I was going to take my capital and decide I want to be in copper and I want to be in generators, why is this team going to outperform for me? Do >> you currently do anything else? Do you have any other executive or board positions with other companies? >> I do not. I do not. I think it's actually a good idea for for um senior teams and particularly for CEOs to have external board experience. You can it's always easier um to understand and communicate with individuals that you genuinely understand what where they're coming from. And I have been a board member in the past at other companies and you know the the the knowledge gap is huge. As a board member, there is only so much information you can get and that you can see. >> Whereas a management team has full scope. And so having a board that can ask really important strategic questions that help a management team, you know, they're not trying to be there to trick a management team. They're trying to help create more value for the team efficiently, effectively, like 10 times faster than they normally could. That I think is very valuable. And as a CEO, if you've never had that opportunity, then you know, you're missing an important part of being a leader. So I do think actually it's important to have those external positions. Not all the time. It shouldn't be taking up all of your time, but I do think fundamentally it can create huge value. >> Yeah. Within within reason um and and when explained um properly. So I do I typically do like seeing um you know how people split their time and whatnot. And obviously if I'm putting money into something I want to know that they're working uh kind of on my behalf um and and not on somebody else's and and so on and so forth. So yes um I agree and then and then within reason. Um I want to move on to uh incentives which I believe skin in the game to be the largest one of I can see 7% of the company is owned by management. How much of that is is you personally? How do you get your shares? Um and what's the average cost? That's kind of where I'm going with this. I think I have about 1.8 million shares in the company. I've purchased them all myself. Uh my highest entry point is $3. Uh and probably my lowest entry point is 15 cents. Uh and then you know kind of all in the gambit. Um we have also options uh in the company. So I think I have uh around also 1.8 million options roughly around there. Uh and then RSUs as well which we just introduced last year. Uh and that's really meant to um kind of reflect the fact that we generally don't pay any kind of bonuses and we really want to incentivize leadership uh with uh equity ownership in the company. >> Interesting note on on the bonuses actually uh and this is even more so interesting in your case as a prospect generator. How is insider compensation determined? Like what are for example your KPIs as as a CEO? What are they tied to? Is it share price, market cap, deals, something else? >> Um so for me specifically, I sit down with the board and we really look at the strategic plan and all KPIs are tied directly to executing the strategic plan. Uh obviously partnerships is fundamental uh to our business plan. So yes, part of the performance is based on partnerships. uh managing those partnerships. Uh obviously we also run a lot of our own assets which means that we're the operator uh for our partners. Uh so hence we also have traditional KPI with operating health and safety. Uh we also look at execution delays. Uh we also look at managing a team. You know who are do we have the right uh personnel in the team in order to execute on our strategy. So all of those factors are part of my KPI, but also they're the company's KPI. And I think this is fundamental. It's not just I mean the CEO is fundamentally important to driving the the strategy and the vision, but fundamentally the entire company and the entire team needs to be aligned. So KPI are not just for a CEO. KPI are for the organization and each of the teams within that organization also perform to their own KPI and we track the entire company's KPI. We look at that at the end of the year and then we determine what that those incentives are for um all of our team and not just you know executive team you know everyone in the company. M if you don't have anything to talk about with an exequity analyst, just ask them about KPI and then uh and then you you'll be able to fill in uh an entire interview probably and and it's important though. I mean I think what I what I am looking for is is again commitment and and incentives. Uh when I asked you about your average cost, what I was looking for there is essentially cheap paper. Uh is there cheap paper within or outside of what management owns? oftentimes a problem with newer vehicles. I suppose in newer case that would have been worked through um at this point. So I don't suppose there is uh like one cent you know one cent shares or something that someone holds or like some of the original founders of the of the shell or something. >> I mean it's uh look and it's not just mining it's any sector. Um there are always these you know private deals at fractions of a penny uh that people you know issue a huge amount of shares then they decide oh now we're going to do a round A round A is at let's say 10 times it's at 10 cents but the prior you know seed round was at pennies >> I think that is very predatory I don't think um that is the best way to start a company and I think it's really really fundamentally important that there is transparency about you know fundamentally that cap table. Um you know people can use all sorts of reasons on you know and explain away why they uh did one of those types of structures but I'm not a big fan. I'm not a big fan of that. And look, Maduro's been public since 2003. So that's definitely not anywhere uh near in terms of how we operate. We are a public company. We have, you know, fully disclosed share structure. Uh we really care about dilution. Uh and it's a fundamental question that we ask ourselves every quarter, every year. We don't go out and raise money regularly. uh we often get approached for financings and uh always our feedback is if you want to be a shareholder we encourage you to buy in the public market and then once we do decide to have a financing then of course we would reach out to our shareholders. >> How many roll backs has the company done since uh 2003 to get to 111 million shares outstanding? >> Zero. That's yeah that's a that's a I kind of assumed I suppose I could have asked the question have you done roll backs but it's just like you assume what with juniors you assume when you see you know 111 20 plus years in operations you assume so uh it's a good answer uh short one talking insiders do you or any of the other insiders personally own a royalty on any of the projects you have >> no again it's uh I don't think that's the way to run a company I think fundamentally you have to look, you know, if you're going to have a private business, you can run it whichever way you want, but if you're going to have a public business and have shareholders, uh I think you need to uh be fair and transparent and treat all shareholders like actual shareholders. So, no, you should not be having any side transactions and neither do we. >> I agree. That's what's uh part of the smell test there. Um and and I'm I'm glad that's the answer. I think this about does it for the smell test. And I I want to move on and and get back really to talking about the business strategy here. um valuations might be a good context to lean on here too because in um really the slides that you referenced at the beginning uh you you you you talk about you do a good job of highlighting that you're undervalued relative to the amount of money going into the ground as well as the amount of uh revenue that you get versus your peers. And I get how that may be attractive for a buyer now, but it's it might not be as attractive for a holder, right? I mean, ideally, as a holder, you'd like your stock to be the most overvalued consistently over 20 years or whatever it might be. So, why is Manduro undervalued right now? And then, more importantly, how can you what can you do to to end that um undervaluation? >> It's a good question. I I don't think um I don't think there's a magic bullet in terms of how to end an undervalue uh undervalued company uh or how to change that. Um, I think fundamentally you have to ask yourself as an investor why you're invested. Like what's your thesis? Why did you actually put money into this company? Do you um do you want resource allocation? Do you want copper in your portfolio? Uh did you hear about it at the bar? Hopefully that's not the reason why you invested or you know people obviously have all sorts of different reasons why they invest. I think that should be your northstar as an investor of why you get in. And if you still believe that that thesis is true, then fundamentally your company, you know, there's still a place for it in your portfolio. So, and I and I think fundamentally there is a difference between an investor and a speculator. A speculator I think uh definitely would kind of be a little bit more in tune with what uh you know you're refer referring to is you know undervalued overvalued do I want to trade do I want to get out you know has has the share price gone up has the share price gone down what are my metrics but fundamentally investors I think have a different thesis and you I mean if you're not a trader and you're not a speculator and you're trying to actually allocate um a portion portion of your portfolio and have a well- balanced portfolio for you know whatever your investment purposes are fundamentally why are you investing are you investing in for example a Franco Nevada because you like the dividend and you like the exposure to gold and you like the idea of not necessarily having to take asset level risk although in theory you know there's always asset level risk uh because when the asset's not producing the royalty company doesn't make money but having said that uh when you're in generator. Fundamentally, what is the what's the thesis? Why are you in? Do you want copper exposure? But you also want that exploration opportunity of discovery, but you have a real issue with the downside of, you know, the cyclicality of exploration and you want something with less dilution, then a generator is a is a really interesting opportunity. And why this generator? What are they doing differently? Do you fundamentally believe in exploration Arizona? Do you fundamentally believe that the United States is going to be uh doubling down on their need for more extraction in critical minerals? So once you start going through all those questions and you have a very solid thesis of why you're in a company, then if those questions and those answers to those questions continue to be true, then the valuation is still the like it's kind of irrelevant. It still has a place in your portfolio. Well, but but in the end, you do want to end up making money on what you what you put your money in. Um what would that look like for you long term? Does it like if I bought today, how do I make money if the stock goes up and I sell, right? Or I stick around for a dividend or a distribution of sorts or or a spin-off of sorts that I could later go down and and and uh sell. How do you how do you see that? How how would I make money if I bought today? So if you bought today, uh really fundamentally you're you're getting in involved in Manduro at the time when we're um exploring in Serbia uh with BHP. Uh that I think continues to provide that exploration discovery upside in the company. Uh with one successful discovery obviously that would um significantly kind of change the valuation of the company. That's one way to make money. The other way is once one of those assets start producing and making payments to us uh then obviously you know we now we have a very strong cash flow and that cash flow uh can be either reinvested into more opportunities or it can partially be dividended out to shareholders. Uh that's a really important decision point I think for a lot of these generators that transition uh into the royalty space. Um, other ways that I think is it's not so much about making money, but it's about protecting that downside protection so that you can make money when one of those two events occur. And that is how else are we bringing money into the portfolio. So, we option out projects, we collect annual option payments. When we operate, we collect operator fees. Uh and also as the asset advances and it becomes uh derisked over time, we make milestone payments uh or we receive milestone payments from our partners. D-risking means there's now a resource, there's a pea, there could be a PFS, an FS, a commercial discovery decision, although those are really important uh derisking um kind of milestones and so we get payments for those. So there are different ways for money to come into the company, but all of that money is to drive more opportunities so that we increase the chances of uh a discovery in the company that can fundamentally turn into a production royalty. >> Looking at some of the online chatter, be it on the chat boards or Twitter, whatever it might be, um there really isn't all that much conversation going on for a company of your size. again just over 60 million market cap right now. Uh do you think the the valuation might be might be related to the speeds of of communicating like like news? Like I know you try to have about an NR a month by the looks of of of your news page on your website type of schedule, but could that be part of the challenge and and do you think that might change in 2026 and where you have, you know, more news essentially more often? Um, yeah, we're we're not really a company that chases news. We're we're not um, you know, that's not really our purpose. Our purpose is to give our shareholders the best opportunity to make a discovery. And fundamentally we put out quarterly announcements and we try and make those as thorough and as readable because I think that's another issue with our industry is that you know we have quarterly financial reporting but a lot of it doesn't make sense or it's so confusing that the readers kind of dismiss financial statements and dismiss MDNAs and get uh really really hooked onto news releases and news releases just become um these, you know, the concept of a news release when they originally started was materiality. And so I I actually challenge you, tell me of the last 15 press releases that you ran that you read, which of them were materially important to the direction of the company? >> I saw one today where an exploro congratulated another Explorico for making a discovery. I thought that was pretty material. Uh >> jokes, you you do see that though and uh I I do know what you mean. But but just just to go back to 2026 though for you specifically, is that the cadence that you expect like about about a news release a month or do you think there might be more? >> Um so first of all, we definitely do quarterly updates uh and we try and provide updates uh every month. But, you know, to be honest with you, I really like the uh social media. I and and I'll explain why. I think it provides you with more relevant, current, ongoing information that uh ideally will also give you more visuals because again, you know, reading a bunch of text uh a lot a lot of press releases are very difficult to understand. Um, so our purpose is to give you as much information as possible in terms of what's going on financially and uh a summary of how capital has been allocated and spent in the company on a quarterly basis. Provide ideally monthly updates through a news release format. But what we really like doing is engaging with shareholders through social media and providing weekly updates. And I don't mean like, you know, the copper market's great. I mean, those are those are great, you know, kind of uh information points. Um, but those are more kind of just repeating a message. We have uh and we've we've been doing this probably for the last I'm going to say four four years. Uh, where we call them updates from the field. And our goal is that every single week we are providing an update of what we are actually doing out in the field. And that I'm hoping is a way for more engagement with investors and shareholders so that if you have a question about what's going on in the company, don't wait for a monthly news release. Don't wait for the quarterly report. Call us, you know, engage with us. Uh because we love talking about what we do. >> Yeah. I don't think we need anybody telling us how great Copper is. We've got Robert Freedelland doing that uh on on CNBC every other week. So this is um you know something else I wanted to talk to you about Tio was was regarding the it's tied to the speed of news releases because I'm kind of wondering about are you really in control of that given given your partners and uh it's a a broader topic might maybe that we could talk about is regarding the business model of working with with majors as a whole because they don't have they don't have to care about the junior share price right and and many of them are are notoriously slow to deal with um right not everybody but many of them are and and they can often have the upper hand in in negotiations with juniors as well. So talk to me a little bit about how you can make that strategy work long term without getting kind of the the short end of the stick. >> Look, it's not our business to change our partners just like our partners their business is not to change us. If it's material to us, of course, we have uh the right and the obligation to press release uh that in that content and that information. Um yes, of course, you know, uh partners want to make sure that uh there is nothing disclosed that they feel is propri proprietary to their uh methodology or their their programs. So yes, there is of course an important uh review process, but fundamentally if information is material to the company, we have an obligation to disclose and we do. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that is how it how it has been. and and yet it can still be slow. Like one of the companies um that that I'm invested in has a major partner as well and to well in my opinion they could be faster in the news releases and and and that might be a topic in and of itself but just thinking about it um out loud and looking at your your recent deal might be a good case study actually with BHP in Serbia because like if they are successful you'll be giving away 100% of the project and you're keeping a royalty on the back of that. So, so going back maybe to to major having the upper hand in negotiations as well. Do you feel like you you got a good deal out of out of BHP here and and um yeah, maybe you can talk to me about that more broadly. Um how you deal with negotiations? >> Well, it's interesting that you chose the words giving away 100%. Do you really think that we gave away 100% for nothing? It's >> not for nothing, but in the end you will you will because you own 100% now. So you'll be giving it away. That's where I'm coming from. >> So what we do is create a structure and an opportunity in order to get our partners in 100%. So over time we want those partners to get 100% of a project. Why do we want that? Let's take a look at the history of how uh projects particularly major projects I'm not talking about you know some kind of a small asset that you know might take you know 200 or 300 million uh to put into production. I'm talking about an asset that will most likely take $2 billion to put into production. Now, when you look at the majority of copper mines that are of that scale and of that size, cuz fundamentally that's the benchmark, right? Like that's what you're trying to achieve. When you look at that, um those assets are very very difficult to finance. And if you have a junior company the size of Manduro holding on to let's say traditionally the space uh looks at you know anything from 30% let's say to uh 20%. Those are like standard numbers 30 25 20%. That's what you all uh usually see and then a company will dilute down to a royalty. But here that's the important part. Why does a company at the end dilute down to a royalty? And what is the percentage of companies, junior companies that are trading, let's say even under $250 million that actually come up with their uh requirement for project financing, fund the project, and we all know what happens during the construction phase. I mean, it's a low period and uh usually, you know, programs are over budget. You have to continue financing. You have to do project financing. You have to come in with all these financial metrics that as a junior company, you're not even set up to create. And so now you're a junior partner with a huge amount of debt on an asset waiting for payout. And here's the thing, in most of those agreements, you have a situation where what we call expansion capital. Oh, now we need to double the size of this particular amount or nope, now we need uh new equipment or we need new pit expansion. Nope, now we need more stability in this particular part of the pit. All of that capital continues to be a requirement of partners. So I think fundamentally you have to ask yourself if you're a junior and you're a generator, what is your value ad? Your value ad is during exploration. And so what you know what the the premise that we operate under is get your partner as fast as possible to 100%. And ensure that the payment structure that you've created for the asset meets the objectives of your company. And so you know the way that we meet those objectives as I explained earlier we have milestone payments as the asset becomes derisked. We have annual option payments. On top of that, we have annual operator fees if we operate. But also, most importantly, we hold onto a royalty. And that royalty, when you look at it, 2% um in an asset typically run by a major company is worth half a billion dollars. So that's a extremely I think valuable way to create value in the company with no debt burden and no dilution. Whereas a traditional expiration company that even has to raise a fraction of that might likely end up diluting 100% of their shareholder base like in order to raise the equity component before they can even start burdening the company with debt. So again, I'm not saying that one model is wrong and the other one is right. I'm just saying fundamentally understand what business you're in and what value you create and that will I think um answer a lot of the questions of how you should structure your transactions >> when you talk to BHP. Do they listen like I mean as as the operator do you have a say in how quickly the rigs turn and and how many rigs even and and stuff like that? So the way that um operatorship works is it the operator is fundamentally responsible for uh running the operations but it there is a technical committee that runs the the decisions and when there is one partner that is sole funding obviously that partner has veto rights over uh all technical decisions which frankly is the only fair way to go. So if both partners are contributing to the um exploration budgets then there is no veto rights by any one member on technical committee and it's more by through voting. Uh but when you do have sole funding requirements by one group that one group will fundamentally have those veto rights at the technical committee. So a technical committee drives the exploration, targeting and the operations uh really runs the the schedules and the uh execution of those work programs. >> What happens uh and this is really about risk to you is that what I'm thinking about is like what happens if if they're not successful to their standards? What if they don't find a BHP size project? What does that mean for Manduro shareholders? If if they walk away, would you drop the project so it together or look for a different partner? What what's happens in a in a postBHP world? >> Yeah, I mean look, any partner can leave at any point in time. Um that's the design of the contracts and if an asset does not meet their criteria, they walk away. And the as I again I mentioned you know uh they have the opportunity to uh exercise 100% if they don't exercise 100% goes back to Manduro and then we take that data we take that information ensure that obviously everything uh is properly um let's call it compiled into an expiration model and then we will either reach out to new groups in order to determine if these these specific metrics meet their criteria or oftent times we just soon as we put out a press release groups contact us and say oh we see that you know so and so just uh dropped the project you know can we sign a CA and you know discuss with you what you're looking for next >> so it's an all or nothing approach uh so so it's not like they could it's not pro rata you don't have to bite them out like if they walk in seven and a half years if they walk you still get 100% of the project and 100% of the data I I think you mentioned there is that is that right? >> Yeah. I mean it's it's the data goes with the project. Um yeah it all depends on the structure of the agreement. So whenever you're reading one of these uh press releases just really understand you know for example if the partner has exercise rights at what point in time do those exercise rights occur? And if they occur you know before 100% then when the partner walks away had they already exercised it or had they not? So even if let's say for example their first exercise point is at 51% which is you know a very common uh decision point uh even if it's at 51% did they exercise? Because often times majors will exit uh a project and not even bother exercising the 51% because they just, you know, if it doesn't meet their criteria, they just want to walk away free and clear and not have any future obligations. >> And that's again not not the case for you with the 51% uh which is it's interesting. So the criteria is just the spend and and the time can they do it quicker like if they wanted to spend 30 million next year can they do that or is it 10 years? >> Yeah. No absolutely any part you know the way that again you want to you want to structure a transaction so there's uh you're not putting handcuffs on the partner. You really want them to succeed. You want to succeed and the more closely aligned you are the better you know the opportunity for that success. So uh yes, can a partner overspend? Absolutely they can. Sometimes they will even overspend uh you know their let's say exercise rights for 100% is x amount of dollars and they end up spending 2x and they still don't exercise. So um they can spend as much as they need in order to ensure that it meets their target. >> Well, you've been a better negotiator. Um because for me it's different. like my wife's not allowed to overspend even though she is my partner and I want her to succeed. Um, how much is the annual management cost? Is that disclosed? >> Uh, no, we don't disclose that. >> Okay. It's ballpark or a target. Are you targeting be able to cover your GNA or like what's the rationale behind it then? >> Oh, you know, everyone has a slightly different take on um uh and you're talking about operating fees. operating, you know, operating fees, everybody thinks that they're high, but the the reality is it is so much work and uh honestly they're never enough. Uh so we try and find a happy medium uh of you know what is rational and sometimes it takes you know a bit of discussion to explain to uh partners why we charge the fees that we do but uh at the end of the day we do what I like to say is uh really good quality work for a junior that meets big partner um operational requirements and we can do it at a fraction of the cost of the senior Yeah. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Um and and quicker too. I think exploration is best done by small and nimble teams as well. Um what is you started drilling not even a month ago I believe. Um when do you expect some news out of there? >> Um we started drilling in the South Tim uh project area. Um we have two rigs on site. Uh it is very difficult drilling right now. I mean obviously it's winter but that's not the main issue. It's just very very difficult ground conditions. Uh so we're kind of working through that with the contractors. Um what aren't so you know when are we going to finish these two holes? The the projected uh completion date is an approximately another 30 days. So that would bring us let's say into the middle of March. Uh and then we submit all the assays. uh and that would probably bring another three to four weeks. So that would probably be around the middle of April that we would have the assay results uh back within the company and then at that point you know you start interrogating the data make sure you've gone through very rigorous QAQC uh and and of course you should analyze your data you should understand what's you know what are the assays actually saying and how does that uh fit within your model and what do you need to reconcile between the results and uh the initial you know, kind of questions, concept that you were uh aiming for. And once you've got that good analysis, then you should be presenting it to the marketplace in a coherent way where actually, you know, you can explain here's what we tried to do, here's the results, and then here's the decision point next, and then here's where we plan on going uh going forward. So, you know, sometimes companies really rush and send out results. And and I think that's why we see the type of press releases that we do where you're kind of you're kind of reading between it where they're giving you a lot of information but it doesn't quite hang together. And so um I think as an industry if we were not as um let's call it burdened by by that kind of you know time pressure of this you know perhaps investors asking for uh immediate news releases. managements can give more thoughtful news releases to the marketplace that actually you know generate you know kind of a real understanding of what's next for the company. >> What are you hoping to see in in there though? What's kind of the minimum bar if you will for for excitement here from the perspective of grade and width? >> Well, we want a discovery. We want a porefree discovery. You know what tends to happen in tofreeze is uh you get a lot of indicators particularly when you're dealing undercover. It's very rare that you'll get you know stockwork veining right on surface. I mean sometimes you do and that's great but there might be a reason for that. It might be eroded away as well. Um you're usually drilling in a periphery of a system and so orientating yourself is really really important. Um, and you know the complexity around that, you know, you're probably thinking, well, I mean, you know, you drill three holes and, you know, you can vector in should be pretty straightforward. It's not. There's a lot of structural deformation. There's there may be overprinting. There may be issues that, you know, are not immediately apparent in the first phase of drilling. And so, you really have to maximize the data in order to understand where you are in the system so that you can make the decision point. Do you still believe the system is there? And in which direction do you think you should be drilling next? So th those are those are it sounds really like easy questions but they're fundamentally very very difficult particularly depending on how much data you have. So what are we looking for? Like anyone we're looking for a great copper discovery. What does a great copper discovery mean in the timik region? I think we have three really important case studies uh of what that looks like. Obviously the bore mines uh these are billion ton pferies. Uh bore mine is billion tons of like 86 I believe. Um you've got Vicki Clli which is an open pit. Uh so bore is underground pfery. Viki kali is is actually interestingly enough uh it's about I think when it started in total resource it's been in production for a long time maybe it's a total of half a billion tons but the average grade is.3% copper and let's say uh 25% gold uh but then you look at a project a brand new one brand new discovery like chicato pekky where you've got again a billion ton pfery of again around that 75% but then you've got that high sulfidation zone which is only 60 million tons of 3 12% but significantly changes the value of that deposit. So you know let's say for example you drilled just through the pfrey and you didn't find that high sulfidation zone in the beginning of your drill program. So you'd be looking at intercepts of let's say maybe you know 300 m of 75 and now you're scratching your head asking well is that is that a good is like have I made it like is that enough? Does that actually justify the economics? What is the actual cost structure currently? Where am I in the world? The huge advantage of timik and specifically Eastern Europe is that all your infrastructure is built for you. So if you make a discovery in the Andes, oftent times if a if a project is coming online, let's say one quarter to onethird of your cost is just getting on site, just getting your infrastructure to get to that location and then the rest is actually building your infrastructure on that location. In Eastern Europe, that oneird to one quarter component is already paid for. So now your question becomes well what is actually my capital cost structure and how what is actually an economic grade in this region based on these cost dynamics. Is there a smelter close by? Is there a refinery close by? So, um I think in Eastern Europe, if you're going to be in an underground system, you know, ideally, of course, you know, if the the higher the grade, the better, but you're looking at that 2 to 300 uh meter width intercepts of a minimum of 75% and ideally higher. But you're also looking for those high sulfidation zones. And those high sulfidation zones, I mean, there are intersections of, let's say, 10 20 mters of 10 15% copper. Now those are smaller in size but they overall have big impacts to the economics if you can get to them in the beginning of your mind life. >> Which of the projects do you think has the um the best opportunity to give you that? Because you said it's um Timk South that you're going to be drilling first. Is that right? >> We're drilling in Tim South. Um we also have our central Timk package uh which has two really interesting uh lithocaps that we've been exploring. uh for the last you know let's call it five plus years uh there we have indications of porefree systems uh they don't look particularly deep uh and the lithocaps are so welldeveloped uh that there is clearly an intrusive that's been driving uh those fluids for a very long period of time we've age dated them we know that they have occurred at the right a um time frame as the other large corefree systems in the region So that's also really important. Um so that land package central timik I think has tremendously valuable uh targeting opportunities to be still drill tested. Uh beyond that we have another project area called Borskow which is just west of the bore mines where we have also discovered an intact uh porefree um uh or lithocap that we believe is uh being driven by a pfree system. Uh that one is a lot more complicated because it's deeper down. So you're under about 500 meters of uh cover. In this particular case, the cover is andesite. Uh so it's very very competent rock, not like in Chicago Pekky where the cover was meiosene which caused a lot of drilling issues. Um and then in the north we have a really interesting target area that just north of the maid impact mine. Uh and there it's actually coming right to surface. So, and there what we want to see is um great improvement as we test the system deeper down. We've only tested about the first 250 m of it. Uh but we believe actually that the system is not directly underneath but actually shift it over uh and for you know kind of various reasons. And that is an area that we want to also uh drill test with this program. >> So you're not dealing with a coloial cover or something else that's kind of blocking your your geohysical view like you're still mostly targeting with geohysics. >> We have all sorts of different types of cover. So and you know and and you can use traditional geo any type of volcanics you can use uh traditional geocchemistry. Uh obviously, you know, um you want that those cover units to be there and and and having uh kind of some of those fluids transported through them. Obviously, that's really important. But, you know, there is sometimes sediment cover uh in these sediment basins depending on the age of the basin. So, is the basin tertiary? Is the basin uh cretaceous? Is it around the same time? Did the basin fill up after the mineralizing event or did it fill up before the mineralizing event? and then that event occurred and those fluids uh kind of moved through those um cover basins, those those sandstone basins. It's there's a really uh important process of understanding sequence. And then if that basin was already in place and you had an intrusive come up and create these uh kind of uh mineralizing environments, then do you have opportunity for scarmmes? Do you have opportunity for CRDs? And that's what we saw with the Chocarakita um discovery that happened, you know, a couple years ago that Dundee made in an area that they've been exploring for 10 years. So, you know, I think patience is important in the region. Uh, I think that as long as you've got good geological and geochemical and obviously geoysics is great, but more importantly geological and geochemical evidence of a system that hasn't been tested that you have the conviction to test it and that's where the opportunity is for discoveries and we've seen it time and time again in the Timik region. How many targets in total are you going to drill? Because that um what I mentioned at the beginning, 8 to 12,000 meters of drilling. What is that going to be split between? How many targets? >> Um it's a it's yeah 8 to 12. So the where where we got to with that is that we have we want essentially like I mentioned, we have two rigs right now, but we want one of them to continue moving throughout the year. Uh and ultimately what ends up happening is you know you line up a series of targets you rank those targets uh and then obviously your highest priority targets are the ones that are drilled first. Uh and what can happen is that you know you might have spot four holes in one target and the first hole was fantastic and now you want to do eight holes in that target. So you just perhaps will delay some of the other target areas and really investigate that one or if for example a target area uh doesn't actually show uh or doesn't answers the question very quickly with one hole very rare uh usually takes uh two or three uh answers the question geologically and you want to move on then you can get to the next target. So 8 to 8 to 12,000 mters is to keep the rig moving all year long. And right now we've got uh 1 2 3 4 five target areas identified that we want to drill test. >> Yeah, that's actually part of the question that I had as well. Are any of those uh holes make it or break it type of holes for for the partnerships? as in is there a chance for BHP to see some of the drilling and and already um move on if they're not happy or or even see a hole and be like, "Yep, let's double drilling for for next year." Like, do any of the holes that you're drilling this year have the the potential to be that high of an impact? >> Um so every single target, the reason why we drill it is because we think there is a system there. So every time we move a rig to a target, we're doing it because we believe that there is a core free there. Now whether that evidence uh comes into play after you finish drill testing, you never know. Uh mother nature can be awfully cruel sometimes uh but other times it can be uh very interesting. So um I think specifically with our targets, you know, can BHP walk away with any I don't no I I don't think that's the correct way to think about it. I think for any partner the way that you want to think about it is have all the targets been tested? Is there no more geological evidence for a major you know uh partner size discovery? If the answer is yes, then of course they would move on. But if the answer is no and there are more targets and there is more geological evidence or the actually we need to now go revisit this other target because we've learned something from another target area. So uh that will continue uh to be you know a partnership with any one of our partners. But sometimes partners have to leave for you know nonasset reasons. You know, for example, uh you know, they may decide corporately that they can no longer do exploration in a particular region or they have no more budget for grassroots exploration or whatever the reason is, partners can always leave. The real question and I think the important um ask that you should have as a shareholder and as an investor and a generator is what is in the portfolio that will continue to drive value? because of course you should be killing targets uh but are there you know 10 times more opportunities every time a target is killed. So as long as that generator can continue doing their job to generate the opportunities then you know the the business model is still uh successful. If you run out of ideas then yeah you you know you should not be raising money. you should start a podcast if you if you run out of ideas because now with AI you never run out of ideas. I would know. Um is all the work that you're that you're hoping for here in in 2026 is that all permitted um or are you waiting for anything else in Serbia? >> Um so whatever we have in terms of um private land uh so private land is generally straightforward. you know, we we reach out to private land owners and we can sign an agreement in, you know, a couple of days. Um, assuming, you know, they're available and, you know, of course, they understand uh what we're doing. Um, if it's owned by uh forestry, forestry takes a lot longer. We generally have a good understanding of those timelines. And so, what we do is when we look at our targeting um lineup, we determine which are private land, which are uh forestry land. And then we uh also kind of almost adjust those in the work schedule so that we can ensure that the timing will work for us. Meaning we're not going to put a forestry area target uh in the beginning of the program because we know that we'll need a certain amount of lead time in order to attain those permits. So we try and schedule not only obviously for prospectivity which is fundamentally the most important reason why you should be doing it but we also try and sequence them understanding the permitting timelines. >> What is the biggest bottleneck in Serbia right now? I mean if it if it's not permitting because it seems like you have a good grasp of how that works obviously is it is it finding service providers or or land access because of topography or anything else whatever else. Yeah. What's the biggest bottleneck? I think um you know Serbia is going through elections uh in in this spring. Uh actually both Serbia and Bulgaria together around the same time are going through uh elections and whenever there's an elections in any country you know that always causes disturbances in uh approvals to be granted. So delays in approvals definitely should be expected during election cycles. Uh and I think we see that you know uh across any country. It's not just picking on Serbia or Bulgaria, you know, we see that um in South America. We even see that in North America. So, I I believe that probably this year in 2026, those elections will have an impact on just being able to get all the approvals in a timely basis. >> So, so is Serbia similar to Bulgaria from the exploration perspective? because because again in Bulgaria and this might be a good uh talking point as well, but you're dealing with NOS's in in Bulgaria which seems to be uh making your life a little bit harder than it probably needs to be. But uh don't you love that? But but how how is Bulgaria different from from Serbia from that perspective again permitting and and dealing with the locals and everything else? Um, so eastern Serbia has a kind of a a more narrower portion of the upper Casius and Bulgaria has kind of it widens out uh as you get through the country towards the east. Um, so from a geological perspective, there's probably more room to play with uh in in Bulgaria in terms of exploration. Um from a permitting perspective generally similar except that you know the application process is quite different uh between the two countries. Obviously Bulgaria is in the European Union. Uh Serbia is a candidate uh to become a member of the European Union. Uh so those are kind of important distinguishing points between the two countries. Um you know every country is slightly different. They have their own nuances. I I think fundamentally, you know, you can't control um government jurisdictional risk. That's out of your control. So, the best thing that you can do as a team is understand, you know, if there are upcoming changes in a jurisdiction, understand what those are. You know, really investigate those, have an opportunity to engage with governments and ministries about the changes that they're proposing. Um, and just make sure that, you know, it's still an environment where you can operate. um you know other kind of risks that are out of your control is you you know contractor uh costs. I think there is a very um good and healthy community of contractors available in Eastern Europe particularly for drillers. Um I think that we are exceptionally lucky with that. Um and really, you know, you can't control cost creep, but definitely having good established uh relationships with various contracting companies is important in order to try and as much as you can uh control your costs because fundamentally it always has an impact on your business. >> I don't assume you can talk to me too much about it. Um but how is is that relationship in Bulgaria progressing? I mean I mentioned mid 2026 is the timeline that I could find that you believe this is going to be solved by. Is that realistic? What's that based on? >> For what? >> For having the situation in Bulgaria resolved and and restarting work with Jog. >> Um yeah, it depends on the elections, right? So if we have a um obviously there will be um kind of a caretaker government uh in place uh in the interimm and I think they are announcing that tomorrow uh in terms of who the ministers will be um you know and obviously they have a mandate right you know the government needs to continue functioning once and that's in Bulgaria not in Serbia uh once that caretaker government has completed their mandate then it's the actual uh you know government that ends winning the elections that would come in. They have a transition point and then based on that transition point uh and obviously depending on who the new um elected who the new appointed ministers are will have an impact on you know how um each of those ministries moves forward in the country. So ideally, you know, you want to give a government, I'm going to say 3 to four months uh after elections in order to, you know, let the dust settle and all the seats to be announced uh and then, you know, for for administrations to start working again effectively. Um if that happens, if the elections are in spring, then probably, you know, around late summer, early fall, we should have an opportunity to understand, you know, what that looks like going forward. It's very hard for me to guess what that is until we actually know who the new government is going to be. >> Is there a real cost to the slowdown in in Bulgaria or is it more just of a an opportunity cost if you will? >> Uh I think that um it's I don't think it's country specific. I think it's uh no matter where you are, if you cannot get per if you're in a highly regulated uh industry and you cannot get approvals and permissions in order to execute as fast as you need to in order to make uh an investment to success, that's uh a cost to you. >> Um and unfortunately, you know, uh or mining is a very regulated space. It's not like the software industry where, you know, you and I could go and tomorrow, you know, probably hire, you know, create 10 open claw agents, develop our app, get it up online, and then off the races, we're collecting money. No regulation, zero. Whereas in mining, just for you and I to actually go out and do basic exploration, which could end up costing uh or creating uh decades of value for communities and local governments, um takes a lot of permission. >> Dating app for drillers. There's an idea for software. Maybe that that's uh maybe that works more quickly. >> Um talking timelines though, TL, enough Balcons for for today. what's going on in Arizona and did you have an outlook on timing for a potential deal there? >> I'm glad you asked. Uh I love Arizona. I think it is such an incredible opportunity. I love the South I mean I've I've loved the Southwest US for a long time. Um but it is here is an example of how one election and one administration change can be such a fundamentally uh like fundamentally different outlook on what natural resource uh investment can be in a country. So you can go from night to day and day to night. Um it's amazing. I think that um you know the number one talking point in Arizona even a year ago was what's happening with resolution right everyone pointed to resolution as to why they felt the United States was not necessarily the best jurisdiction to move forward on now you know the government and particularly this administration are highly uh focused on removing those um let's call it speed bumps in in the process in order to advance uh development of that asset and many other assets in the United States. So we think and I have kind of felt this for a long time. It was fascinating to me how Arizona was this um area where everyone perceived that as oh you know it's been walked over for a hundred years there's no new opportunities in Arizona. I don't think that's the reality of Arizona. Uh certainly copper porefree exploration has advanced so much just in the last two decades let alone hundred years that it's just not a fair assessment of the region. Um we think that there is a lot more opportunity for copper discovery in Arizona. Obviously it's not sticking out of the ground the way that you know it would traditionally be. Um but you also don't have necessarily an issue of huge amounts of um cover. So in Arizona, we're not afraid or sorry, in in Serbia, we're not afraid of working in environments where you have 500 meters of cover. uh in Arizona, you know, uh we're in a region in the southeast portion of the state um down in Coochis County at the Dos Cabasos project where we have a larite intrusive coming directly to surface uh and has you know kind of spread mineralization and what we believe is that you know there's m there's been multiple events there that has uh and the the last event which is what we believe um kind of hosting the the main mineralization is just uh to the side and beneath some volcanic cover next to the lamide that's come to surface. So again just understanding your environment uh never been drill tested before us. That was really interesting in a c in a state where you know there are uh many many copper mines. Um so I think that Arizona is we got in at the right time. We got in five years ago. Uh we started our strategy there with Valet as a strategic partner. uh and we have been doubling down on the region and that's really why we ended up doing that financing last year at the end of the year was to really deepen our um strategy in the United States. >> But bottom line there's hope for the assets being signed this year then >> that is our objective uh 100%. uh we want to get uh a or multiple partners in those programs uh in order to uh get drills back on site. >> That's actually a good point as well because that's something I wanted to ask as well. Do all three of them have to go to one operator? Would it could it be multiple partners? >> Absolutely. Depends. You know, different companies have different interests. So, uh you know, if one company wants the entire portfolio, that's great. If one company wants one asset or another asset, uh look, our job is to partner out. It's not u it's not necessar to create this predefined must be one partner. That's not the case. >> You kind of broke off there, but I'm um I think I am getting the gist of it. Um what else is going on? What else are you working on? new projects in not that you could tell me I suppose but is that is that the goal to keep coming up with with new projects? >> Yes, exactly. we're working so we have um our existing programs uh which we're operating in uh Serbia uh obviously we have our program with Jog uh in Bulgaria uh and you know we're waiting for uh permitting approvals there for drilling and in Arizona we are actively engaging with uh partners potential partners uh for optioning out those projects and then we have a dedicated generative team that is really focused focused on ground truthing opportunities we've uh already generated uh as well as going out and staking uh key opportunities where we want to start establishing uh more project areas. We we kind of touched upon that at the beginning too and I was I was really mostly wondering about whether there's a a sweet spot like you maybe don't want to have 300 uncommitted projects that might communicate to the market that you're maybe not an effective dealmaker but you also don't want to have zero available projects because then there might be an opportunity cost. So is that just me being I suppose naive again or is it partly true like is there a sweet spot for how many projects you want to have in the portfolio? Um, it's a good question. So, we've been in situations where everything's been partnered out and we haven't been uh able to, you know, kind of keep up with demand. And so, zero projects, you don't necessarily want to be in that uh uh scenario, but you also don't want to be in a that can be a very heavy drain on the treasury and you know, it's all about managing costs. Um so we ideally you know what we think is the right size for us is probably about 25 projects. Um and again we deal with um you know we do a lot of the ground truthing and we do some of the base work in order to bring the projects to a certain scale where then they can be partnered out uh to companies that we know are looking for these types of assets. um we have a lot of projects in the pipeline. So we don't announce applications obviously uh and then in the United States it's a staking process. So in Europe not only do we have our core portfolio but we also have uh a number of areas that we've applied for both in uh Serbia and Bulgaria because we believe that there's a lot more uh opportunity for discovery. Obviously we're waiting for the governments to approve those. Uh and then in the United States, we've got a really healthy pipeline of prospects that we've identified uh and that now we're ground truthing and starting staking. So there's opportunity for us to really grow the portfolio, but fundamentally, you know, 25 that's probably a good size for this particular strategy. >> And that is in the end. And really a lot of what we've talked about so far is it's a capital allocation decision in the end, right? So, so is most of what happens in junior mining really. But, um, to that point, how much money do you have right now? And, and how far is that money going to get you? >> Yeah. Um, so we have, I think it's around as of the end of the year about 4 and a.5 million in cash. Uh, part of that is partner funding. Uh, and then part of that is obviously our own capital. Um we try and be in a position where you know our expenditures and and you'll see this in our financials you know year-over-year we try and be between one to one and a quarter million of uh corporate expenditures and uh outside of that we usually balance uh the generative side of the portfolio with another million. So could be like two to two and a quarter million of expenditures per year. So ideally our portfolio should be generating a minimum of what we ex expect to be spending and then ideally you know uh drive even more value. >> So if if you were to raise capital this year that would be um opportunistic then like like deal related or something like that. You wouldn't have to raise money for GNA essentially. >> Yeah. No, we're not raising any money. that that actually might be a um another good point or or a topic here because typically when I Google a company's name and and go to the video section I often see a lot of interviews as is that's traditionally kind of been a preferred way of communicating I suppose with the market for juniors not that many of yours though and and um there's some brick rule stuff which I know works well for exposure and whatnot but I um I know you hired a new IR person who actually put us in touch so shout out to him um so but but is that is that about to change for you like Are you about to go and spend a little bit more money on marketing this year given where your share price is, where the market is, and everything else? >> It's a really good question. Um, we keep our marketing as a percentage of our overall budget. So, if we do not plan on growing our budgets, uh, the marketing will not grow. And I say that because I think the best marketing is not marketing that you pay for. I think it is marketing uh it's you know the assets themselves have to speak for uh the company. So if you if we do our job well, our assets will do well. And uh obviously, you know, we're going to communicate that to the marketplace. But traditional marketing, you know, the way that you're talking about it, there's a place for it, but I don't think a company should be allocating um you know, more than what is a reasonable percentage of their overall budget. If half of your budget is for marketing then >> yeah that is a ratio that I typically look at for um and in your case it is again as I mentioned at the beginning um you were able to cover your expenses with your revenues but it is a ratio that I typically look at how much money is going into the ground versus how much goes out on um non-exloration expenses and uh yeah to we've um >> we we do disclose you know the way that we put together our financials we're very clear on what we spend on corporate communication and usually year-over-year what you see is about uh 10% of our overall budget goes to marketing. So it's a very conservative amount. Um which is probably you know why we are slightly undervalued. Maybe our some of our peers spend way more on communicating. But again it's all about what are you communicating? Are you trying to create a spike in your share price or are you you know uh just getting the story out. Um we don't go to very many conferences. We really select the ones we do and we really try and focus on I think that if you find a great company and you talk about a great company, it creates as much value for you as it does for the company. So uh we don't necessarily believe in paying for a lot of uh marketing. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Um and and and it's good when you when you think about it. you you I mean it's it's kind of a necessary evil I suppose in in in our sector. You do need to do some marketing but it has to be measured and it has to be with with the strategy. So I I appreciate that being your approach. Um yeah we we've been at it for a while and as you can tell I'm very interested in how the model works. So I could probably annoy you for at least another hour with questions but I know you have real work to do as well. So I I'll start working toward uh wrapping it up. What am I forgetting to ask you here? What did you come here hoping to talk about that I've uh failed to bring up? Well, just I think um for those that are really interested in the model and and how we do it, please go to the website. We have a really good presentation that actually has a dedicated section to the generators. Uh you know, one of the things that we haven't talked about is what is the right ratio of spending of the generators like you know who's doing it right and we think 10 times uh whatever the company is spending the partner should be spending between eight to 10 times that amount. Uh so that's really really important. I think if your investor base is really interested in this model, please go to the website and take a look at those slides. They are very unbiased. I mean obviously we talk about Maduro in that context, but they really give you very good analytical data of understanding the sector. >> Yeah. You know that's fair. I'll have those on screen as well uh just so people can see what that's all about. But uh yeah, what did I uh what am I forgetting to ask you with us? Would you What else did you hope we would talk about? >> No, I mean I think that's it. I uh I appreciate for you making time for us. Um we love what we do and we are excited about what we do every day and I would just encourage people to reach out to us. Don't wait for a press release. Don't wait for a quarterly report. Reach out and um you know we're always happy to talk to investors and shareholders. >> Yeah. Well, I've spoken to your new new IR multiple times and uh he told me he he loves it when people call him at 2 am in the morning. Just I want to put that out there. Um he's a big fan of that. Um what is uh here's another one that I'm forgetting. What's the most fear criticism that you've received from investors over the last year? >> Probably the marketing. Yeah, people have said, you know, we don't market enough. Um and again, you know, like you kind of have heard my points on that. I look, marketing has a time and a place. Um, and it's important. Uh, and I think you definitely need to get your story out and your message out, but don't blow your budgets. >> Yeah, that's fair. And, uh, again, I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but I'm hoping you'll be back on again sometime soon. So, for people listening, let me know what I'm forgetting, and I'll make sure to ask it in our in our next conversation. But this has been a good first pass interview to you. I I enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. >> Thanks very much for inviting me. >> And as always, thanks to everyone for watching Resource Talks. I have a couple of more things to say, though. The fact that this company was interviewed here today does not mean that they are necessarily a good or a bad company. I'm not here to endorse nor attack anyone. I am simply here to ask some questions. If you find that I have failed in asking a question that you would have liked to hear an answer to, which will happen as I'm not an experienced interviewer, please let me know and I will try to correct that mistake in a future interview. As mentioned at the beginning, please understand that mineral exploration and development is an extremely risky business. Losing money is the norm and should be the expectation. This is a very complex sector and the performance of individual companies typically depends on many different moving particles including company specific factors like geology, financing ability and many others really as well as particles that are outside of the company's control like geopolitics, macroeconomics, commodity prices and many more. most of which are nearly impossible to fully understand. Moreover, these companies that typically get interviewed on resource talks are in the pre-revenue stage, which means they rely on the public markets for the financing of their operations, which could result in shareholder dilution. Furthermore, as a general rule of thumb, you'll be better off understanding that all company communications online, albeit this interview or their website and their presentation and their social media accounts or even the social media accounts which you thought were your friends and then told you about a stock, everything really that these companies do is intended as marketing. And although I do not make buy or sell recommendations because there is a clear conflict of interest given the nature of my business, many out there do and you should be aware of that in bias and you should be careful out there. That bias is not always going to be clearly disclosed with everyone out there. So it is safer for you anytime you're watching any type of company specific content to approach it with a dose of skepticism and assume that the party telling you about it is biased in at least some shape or form because there will always be a bias again albeit clear or not. So, always ask yourself what the incentive of your counterparty is and never rely on them regardless of their incentives, but in instead double check if what they're saying is true again by using setterplus.ca. The fact that I have no idea what I'm doing should already be clear to you at this point. I am not saying this to make jokes or or laugh with myself. I just simply do not have a long enough track record of consistent investment profits. So, I should under no circumstances be considered an authority on anything. Again, although this may sound amusing to you, believe me, it is not amusing and it is not intended as a joke. I'm simply pointing out a fact and warning you not to rely on anything I do or say. Unfortunately, at least to my understanding, nobody out there has any special abilities. The CEOs do not possess any superior knowledge and they cannot know about what will go up, what will go down, or what will go in circles. Some people even believe that to be rule number one on Wall Street. Nobody really knows. None of us know whether any of the company's activities will result in a success. Again, given that we're talking about high-risk activities where most of the times it ends in failure. Also, unfortunately, try as I may, I won't always catch all red flags or old challenges with the companies. So, even if I did ask a few tough questions in here, don't rely on this being all of the tough questions. Again, these are complicated startups with many moving parts and I am conflicted given the nature of this business. 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This is all to say, I know it's a lot of lawyer talk, but this is all to say that you shouldn't blindly trust me or anybody on the internet, and you should do your own research. Once again, social media is meant for entertainment. It is set.ca where you do your research. That's where you'll find a company's official filings. And I encourage you to read and analyze the management information circular, the financial statements, the management discussion and analysis, and whenever available, the NI43101 technical documents. If you don't understand everything in those documents, the chances of you losing money are even higher than they normally are in the space. And as mentioned earlier, the chances of even the best analysts in this sector lo losing money are extremely high since this is venture capital and it is not for everybody. I'll leave you with one of Charlie Munger's quotes which I wish I had listened to more often earlier on which says quote if you don't understand it don't do it.