Carley Garner: Gold, Silver, Oil — My Price Calls and Strategies
Summary
Gold: Framed as a risk asset moving with equities, likely entering a bear market after a parabolic spike and extreme options volatility; only cautious, small, unlevered long-term exposure advised.
Silver: Compared to meme-stock dynamics, with expectations of sharp snapback rallies but an eventual move into a lower trading range, potentially below prior breakout levels.
Crude Oil: Near-term volatility expected but supply rerouting and additions (e.g., Venezuela, domestic producers) could rebuild a glut; options structures (sell calls/buy puts) and micro futures cited.
US Equities: Cautious outlook amid war-market volatility and strong resistance; historical precedent for long flat periods and midterm year seasonality argue against chasing bounces.
US Dollar: Dollar strength and ongoing Treasury demand undermine the metals bull narrative, suggesting limited support for sustained precious metals upside.
Grains: Corn, wheat, and soybeans seen tracking crude higher; without the oil bid, fundamentals look weak, prompting a modest, risk-limited bearish stance and profit-taking.
Japanese Yen: Presented as a correlated hedge to falling oil with inexpensive options and potential upside catalysts from BOJ intervention.
Macro Outlook: Oil spike viewed as deflationary by draining consumer spending; U.S. energy positioning reduces 1970s-style stagflation risk, with hopes for less central bank intervention ahead.
Transcript
I'm Charlotte McLeod with investingnews.com and here today with me is Carley Garner, commodity broker and strategist at DeCarley Trading. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. Of course, thanks for having me. Really excited to have this conversation today. I did think since it's our first time talking, if you could start with a brief introduction to yourself and your work and how you came to be in this sector, that would be great. Sure. So So my name is Carley Garner. I run a boutique brokerage shop in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a futures and options broker, so we offer speculating and hedging in commodities. Uh crude oil, grains, meats, energies, uh well, metals, any anything you could think of that trades on the CME exchange or the ICE exchange, we we trade it and hedge it. Perfect. And today, where I wanted to start is with gold. I reached out because I had come across your one of your posts on LinkedIn about gold and I'm seeing a lot of questions from our audience and elsewhere about the recent price activity. Of course, we saw gold at all-time highs earlier this year and it's in a pullback right now and especially since the war on war started, it's it's come back down and I think a lot of people are wondering why that's happening given that gold is supposed to be a hedge against instability. So, I wonder if we can start there and take a look at what's going on with gold, what's driving the price right now and why we are seeing downward action instead of upward. Right. So, the gold market has been um a little unconventional. It's It's basically kind of taken on a a separate another personality. There's been Let me start by saying the correlation between gold and other markets such as stocks um or bonds or anything kind of fluctuates, so it's not always an absolute, but conventional wisdom expects gold to trade higher when stocks are selling off and vice versa. But that really just isn't always the case and especially if you look at a gold chart like a monthly chart of gold versus the S&P, somewhere along the line and I would basically argue that around the time that um 2020, 2021 when a lot of liquidity came into the system to combat the the COVID or the shut COVID shutdowns, whatever you want to call them, a lot of liquidity came into the system and somewhere along the line gold became a risk asset. And what I mean by that is the gold and the S&P started trading in lockstep together overall. And the big rally that we saw in gold um was matched, not quite matched in magnitude, but matched in direction uh by the S&P. So, there be gold is basically at this point, it's not really diversifying anybody's portfolio, it's actually adding risk to their stock portfolio is what's going on. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people realized that when they were buying gold late 2025, early 2026. I think people were assuming it was some sort of a hedge against uh turmoil global turmoil, that's what they were thinking and it's turned out to be the opposite. And I'll also add um there were a lot of reasons to be long gold in the beginning. Like when we're talking $2,000 gold, maybe even the high twos, low threes, there's good fundamental reasons to be long gold, inflation was uh hanging around, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty in the on the global stage. So, I'm not saying there was no reason to be long gold, but I I do think that the market really got uh over its skis by probably 2,000 points to be honest. I don't think gold had any business fundamentally being above 5,000, probably even above 4,000, but sometimes markets do that. Um it kind of in my opinion, and I know a lot of people have differing opinions, but to me it felt a lot like a meme stock or like GameStop where the the idea went viral, the narrative went viral and everybody was buying because of the narrative, but they weren't paying attention to price or risk. And eventually those things do matter and I think that's what we saw when gold started correcting a month or so ago. Very very interesting take on gold and I wonder with that in mind, where where does the gold price go from here? You know, you mentioned it maybe it didn't have any business being above 5,000 or even 4,000. Of course, right now we are we are still above 4,000, so what do you see coming? So, we've seen a couple of things uh that are red flags to me. We've seen really massive spikes in volatility in the option market and obviously volatility on the price chart if you look at the price of gold. Um we've seen this a couple other times in history. In 1979-80, we saw gold behave like this. In 2011, we saw gold go parabolic, not nearly to the nature that we had seen this last year, but it was a similar pattern. Um and in those previous two instances, those that was the high in gold. It wasn't the beginning of some giant bull market gold, that was actually the end of the bull market. And when I look at uh historical volatility, implied volatility in the option market, when we see these really massive pumps in volatility, those are generally occurring at when in at trend changes, not at the beginning or middle of a trend, but at the end of a trend. So, my best guess is we've probably seen the highs in gold, but that doesn't mean we can't get some really sharp uh back and forth here in the meantime. In fact, the downtrend line comes in somewhere around 5,300 if I'm uh correct in my memory. So, it's a very possible we poke above 5,000 on the snapback rally before sellers really start coming back in. But uh I do think in the overall scheme of things, again, if you look at 2011 and and 1980-ish, you'll see that these types of explosive parabolic rallies are proved to be unsustainable, um but they also prove to be kind of hotbeds of volatility for the next several months while the market works it out and that means we're going to have big rallies, but also big sell-offs. Again, again, very interesting. So, more volatility potentially ahead for gold and of course, it's not really supposed to be a a volatile asset either. So, if we take a step back for gold and we look at the overall cycle, where would you place this at the moment for gold? Uh as far as the the overall cycle, I think we're going into a a bear market in the last couple of occasions that we've seen this type of behavior in gold and you make a really good point. People call gold a safe haven asset, but you know, I've been doing this for over 20 years and there's really nothing safe about gold. It can get really really wild at times just like we're seeing. It doesn't pay interest or dividends and you know, everybody likes to talk about the how quickly gold has risen the last couple of years and that's it's been amazing, but it's also padded the numbers. So, if you start looking at performance of gold versus the S&P, it looks really really great at this point in time, but I remember in 2011, it they also looked great. You know, everybody was saying um you know, gold's outperforming the S&P, this so on and so forth, exactly what we're hearing today, but then gold went on a bear in a 9 to 10 year bear market. So, we have to be really really careful. Just because the numbers look really great today doesn't mean uh going forward it's going to be the same. You know, in finance they always say you know, uh past results aren't indicative of future results and that's exactly what I think we're looking at in gold. So, I although I do believe we're going to have some really big rallies and some working out to do, I think the big picture is we're going into a bear market in gold. So, how would you be approaching gold at this point? Would you be would you be trading at the time and what would you be looking to do given the the circumstances that you're outlining? That is a great question and I wish I had a magical answer, but the reality is gold is so difficult to trade at this particular time. The margins are very high, so if you're trade trying to trade in the futures markets, the margins are so uh excessive and for good reason. Margins are high because volatility is high and it's it's a risky market at this particular time. So, the margins are so high, it's difficult for a lot of traders to get involved and if they do get involved and they try to do uh you know, conventional risk management like place stop orders, they're almost guaranteed to get stopped out before they see any any positive results. So, it's just a it's a really uh very very difficult market. And lastly, if you're if you're the type of person that's trying to just buy options cuz to keep your risk limited, on the surface that sounds like a great idea because um you know, I just mentioned the margins are high, so buying a call sounds like a great idea if you think gold's going up, but the problem is option markets are always priced to lose and calls are very very expensive. So, you're talking about risking several thousand dollars on an option that's quite a ways out of the money. So, there's just no easy way to play gold. Um my best advice would be paper trade it, stay on the sidelines or if you're a long-term investor, you know, maybe uh I'm talking long-term like decades, not months or weeks. If you're that type of investor and you want to buy some gold, you know, maybe do it in a in an unleveraged way, bullion or maybe even the uh an ETF, but go very small. Gold's the type of market you want to buy it when nobody wants it, not when everybody wants it. And so, although we're on an upswing and I think we have some some way to go on the upside, um timing it and getting out isn't going to be that easy. So, uh caution is warranted. Fair enough. Fair enough and we do I think have many people in our audience who are those very long-term gold holders, so that that could apply there. You had mentioned the relationship between gold and the stock market and how maybe gold wasn't providing that diversification that people might want to see. So, what do you see coming from the stock market in that case in a in a broad sense given what we've talked about for gold? Well, I mean, the stock market is is obviously in a corrective mode. We're getting a really nice bounce here over the last couple of days, but you know, war markets and bear markets see really big bounces. I'm not sure I'm convinced that the lows are in in the stock market. Uh in fact, there's you know, there's some pretty good resistance coming up here in the next 100 points or so in the S&P. So, we have to be really, really careful with with what we see here. And also, again, I've been doing this for a long time. This has been one of the most tremendous bull markets of all time. If you're looking over the the last several years, it's just been a doozy. Um but I am old enough to have experienced the global financial crisis, and I do remember there were, you know, from early 2000s through uh the financial crisis in the early 2010s, you know, there was over a decade where nobody made any money in stocks. It was just kind of dead weight. So, history suggests that eventually we're going to get back to that stage. I don't know if that's this year. I don't know if it's 5 years from now, but we should always keep that in the back of our mind. So, I personally uh would be you know, I'm not saying um don't take any risk at all in the stock market, but I am saying we should continue to be cautious because I don't think we're out of the woods just yet. There's going to be a lot of volatility in the headlines. And it is a midterm election year. Midterm election years usually have really rough Aprils. So, there's a lot of things that work against the stock market at this particular time. Um so, I would be very careful chasing prices higher in the bounces. If you're if you're a long-term investor, um the odds are you probably get a better dip to to buy into. All right. So, again, again that caution. And while we're on precious metals, I want to bring up silver as well. I'm curious if your outlook there is similar to gold or if it's different. Silver, of course, it's got its precious side. It's also got the industrial component that can make it a little bit different. So, are you seeing similar times ahead for silver or or something a little bit different? My outlook is pretty similar in silver, uh which is not optimistic. Um I actually am in the middle of writing an article for our Substack that is comparing what we saw in silver over the last 6 months to what we saw in GameStop in 2021, 2022. And it's really crazy if you overlay the charts, they're almost identical um to the parabolic moves in GameStop and silver. And I actually, when I think about it, I think a a lot of the cards aligned. I realize GameStop is kind of a worthless uh I don't want to say worthless, but not the most valuable company in the world. And silver, as you mentioned, has a lot of properties, industrial properties that make it valuable. But if you take out uh those two factors and just look at the environment as a whole, there's a lot of similarities, kind of um meme stock uh piling on of a certain idea, a lot of out-of-the-money call option pump-and-dump schemes going on online. And so, I I feel like we're we've GameStopped silver, and I hate to say that cuz as a commodity broker, I encourage speculation in commodities, but I think things have kind of went off the rail with the with silver, and I didn't really like what I saw. There was way too much volatility that had nothing to do with fundamentals. I think the market detached itself from fundamentals, and that's a dangerous game uh in the long run. So, I I do think silver probably saw its high in the 120s here, and I think we're like gold, in the middle of some switchback volatility, which, to be fair, could easily see $90 in silver, maybe even $100 in silver. So, you have to be really careful. Sometimes these parabolic moves, as they go into as they as they flip from a treacherous bull market to a treacherous bear market, we usually get several months of back and fill and back and fill before it finally succumbs to gravity and just uh kind of trades lower for several years. That's been the pattern in gold and silver. But the snapback rallies could be very, very sharp. And it what it does is it makes the, you know, people that bought into those narratives and headlines. And I'm I'm not saying they were wrong. I'm just saying you couldn't uh justify the pricing with those headlines, in my opinion. So, a lot of people will also hang on to those narratives and ideas. And, you know, if they liked it at 120, they're going to like it even better at 60 or 70. And so, that's why you get these really big snapback rallies. But the eventual outcome is probably going to be similar to GameStop, where we give a lot of the gains back and go back into a subdued trading range. Well, and for silver, it's it's very interesting because we made it past that $50 level, and of course, much, much higher, as you're talking about. And I think people maybe I mean, many people would still think it can go higher again. But there's also the question of, all right, if we go if we stay lower, do we stay in a range that's above that $50 level? Are we in some people are calling it maybe a new paradigm for silver? Or do we go back to where it was before, below that $50 level? So, any any thoughts on that? Well, that's that's an amazing point. I I would agree with you. I I think we at least see 50, and then we'll just kind of have to see what it does with that. I personally think we probably gets into a range between 30 and 50. I think that's probably the the fair price. That's my guess. Um you know, the US dollar you have to recall a lot of the narrative behind the silver rally what and the gold rally was the US dollar is weakening and so on and so forth. And if you're looking at the dollar against other currencies, it's actually rallying most of this year. It's not weakening. And I know there's the argument was also fiat currency losing its value, but uh when war broke out, the first thing that the world did was buy US dollars. And so, and the treasury market um has sold off a little bit on the on the war because of expectations of inflation, but there's it didn't sell off that much. In fact, we haven't made new lows relative to last year's lows. So, I would say there's still some interest in money flowing into the dollar and treasuries. And so, that isn't necessarily indicative to the bullish case in metals. So, I do think that um chances are silver trades below $50. The time frame is uncertain. Maybe it takes 6 months. Maybe it takes a year, but I think we do see it. Yeah, I think timing is always very tricky to get. And talking more about volatility and what's happening with the war, I want to shift over and see what's going on in oil prices. So, there's been a lot of interesting price action. Prices have been above and below the $100 per barrel level, and there's so much uncertainty right now. What do you see coming for oil prices? Where Where do we go from here? What can we say at this point? Uh so, obviously we can't see the future. All we can do is um judge what's happened in the past and try to make guesses. So, that's what I'm doing. I'm kind of focused on what happened in 2022. In 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine, and the oil market rallied very sharply to about 130, not un not unlike what we just saw. Uh it was a it was a very sharp rally. And the idea was Russian oil was going to be sanctioned, and all that supply was going to be taken off the the board, and we were no longer going to have enough oil to supply the global market. That war is still going on. Russia's oil is still sanctioned. Yet we found a way for oil to get down to 55 after all of these things. So, I think, you know, the all I'm trying to say is the market has a tendency to price in the worst-case scenario. Um but oil is a very important commodity to to literally everyone on the globe, and somehow or some way, people generally figure it out. They figured out a way to get around the sanctions. The Strait of Hormuz is maybe a little more difficult, but you already see Saudi Arabia using pipelines to get uh a good chunk of their their output, you know, out on a different part of the country. Um Pipelines are going to take a while to build, but I always suspect this is going to be a lot like 2020. In 2020, we experienced COVID, and then the US we decided, you know what, our supply chains were working very well before COVID, but then we realized we were too reliant on countries that we couldn't trust. And I think the oil industry is going to uh basically come to that same conclusion. I think in, you know, everybody had this in the back of their mind. We all knew that at someday the Strait of Hormuz could be used as a weapon, but nobody, you know, until it actually happens, people uh put off and, you know, procrastinate making a plan. Now that it's happened, I think that everybody's going to put a plan together. So, 5 to 10 years from now, I don't think the Strait of Hormuz is going to be the chokehold that it is today. I don't think it'll be possible to shut shut down that much oil in one little area of the world. I think uh people work it around, and it and it figures itself out. That said, as far as what happens in the next 6 months, I think we do get a repeat of 2022 because um while it's true the strait is mostly closed, there's some oil that's been sidetracked in getting through, and that's a problem. But I'm trying to be optimistic, and I think that everybody will work it out, and the oil will start coming through again. And if it does, in the meantime, we've added supply from Venezuela. Uh we've added supply from there's some California offshore rigs that have been retirement for 10 years, and they're coming back online. Every small producer in the country sees these prices, and they're they're starting to pick up steam. So, I think we'll actually, you know, we went into this war with an oil glut, and I think we probably come out with it with a bigger glut at some point. Again, is it next month, or is it 5 months from now? I wish I knew. Uh but I think that's ultimately what we're going to see. That That would be very interesting to actually come out of this with more supply than we had before. And so, I'll I'll ask again. So, this this again is a tricky situation. How are you approaching this from a trading standpoint? Cuz it seems like another one where it's it's probably pretty difficult to make moves with certainty. Yeah, you know, it interesting um crude oil's been it's been wild, but it's actually been a lot easier to manage than gold and silver were. The gold and silver were so off the charts wild. You know, oil's done this before. Gold and silver had never behaved the way that they did before. So, this it's kind of that was new territory. And why that matters is the option market in oil has been very functional. It hasn't broken at all. [clears throat] In fact, it's been very civilized and very fluid and the bid ask spreads are tight. Uh the futures markets have had some big moves, but um margin increases have been reasonable and you know, everybody's kind of been able to cope with it mostly. We were lucky because going into the war we had we were expecting um let me put it this way. March is usually a really crazy month for oil. Usually get some really big volatility March. I'm not sure why it happens. I haven't been able to figure out why, but it just always happens. So, we were expecting volatility, but we were expecting it to be on the downside because we were in a glut situation. We just didn't see a war coming. So, that changed things on a dime. But we we had purchased deep out of the money puts hoping that that volatility spike would be in the downside. We were wrong, but it's okay cuz we luckily didn't have any upside unlimited risk, but as prices have rallied uh just a couple of days ago we actually were comfortable enough to sell calls and buy puts. And the reason we do something like that is the market's wildly volatile. The option market's pricing in tons of volatility. So, we were able to sell strike prices $30 out of the money for 4 or 5,000 dollars, which is really If you've ever traded oil before, that's really impressive. Usually uh 30 40 dollars out of the money are worth 200 dollars, 300 dollars, not five grand. So, there is a lot of premium out there and we used those short call sales to to finance uh the purchase of puts or put spreads and we did it that way. But yeah, you have to be very, very careful. That's not for everybody. That's uh you know, I'm not recommending anybody do that. I'm just explaining how we do it. If you're a speculator, but you're you know, you're not willing to sell naked calls, I don't blame you at all. The CME actually has micro futures that are small enough that you can trade them and not get your head ripped off even if you're a little wrong. So, if you like the simplicity of futures, try using the the micros. Appreciate appreciate the different ideas for people with different comfort levels. And on the note of oil prices, I want to ask about inflation because I'm seeing a lot of concerns about what happens to inflation due to higher prices. And maybe we could focus on the commodity sector because I'm I'm hearing for example concerns about prices for miners that use fuel and and that kind of thing. So, what do you see coming on on that note? Well, uh one thing that I should have should have mentioned in the last question. I'm just going to an- offer that real quick. Another way to play crude oil is to find a market that's a lot tamer, but is correlated to it. So, for example, the Japanese yen has been selling off in lock step as crude oil went up. The options in the yen market are very, very cheap for literally less than far less than a thousand dollars, 6 700 bucks, you can buy an option with three months that has uh that isn't very far that far out of the money. If oil reverses lower, the yen will go up and you can make money that way. So, that's one thing to keep in mind. As far as the inflation goes, it's a little bit tricky because if oil spikes higher while the economy is really hot, that's inflationary cuz it raises the prices everything and there's too much money chasing too few goods and prices go up. But going into this war, we were starting to see some of our economic numbers crack a little bit. The jobs numbers were softening. Now, um whether that continues is is still a question mark, but I would argue that in this particular case, the economy was starting to slow down just a little bit and oil spiked so quickly. Like if you've ever if you filled out your if you filled up your car, you know, gas is probably about double what it was uh pre-war. So, that takes a lot of money out of the economy, out of consumers' pockets and it really puts a a big chokehold on the economy very quickly. So, I actually think this particular spike is not inflationary at all. I think it's deflationary because I think it takes way too much money out of the economy to keep us going uh on all fours all cylinders. So, you we'll have to see how it pans out, but um I'll also point to 2008. In 2008, oil rallied to 150 dollars a barrel very, very quickly. And during that time we were go- in one of the most prosperous uh economic conditions of all time, but the rally in oil actually popped everything and we went into the financial crisis short after. So, when oil spikes this sharply, sometimes it breaks things in the economy and we and it puts us into recession. Uh 2011 we saw something similar. So, um 2022 when oil spiked, we didn't go into a recession officially, but if you recall the administration changed the rules on what constituted a recession. So, maybe we did, but I'm just saying I actually think this is deflationary, not inflationary cuz I think it slows down the economy enough to do just that. Yes. Yeah, I do remember changing that definition again again very tricky. Okay, that's really interesting. So, deflation potentially ahead. I was I was going to ask I had in mind to ask you about these stagflation type of headlines that I've been seeing, but instead maybe deflation. Anything further you would add on that because it's it's not a scenario that I've heard talked about very much at this point in time. Yeah. Um you're right. It's it's kind of the popular narrative is and I think most people are assuming that we're going to get a repeat of the 70s or even a repeat of 22 where we had an energy crisis and the price of everything went up, but I'll remind people we the US is mostly energy independent, not completely, but if you look at natural gas prices in the US versus what's going on overseas, it's actually quite stunning. Our natural gas prices are under three and in Europe they're contending with just parabolic uh pricing over there. And that's a lot different than what we've seen in the past and it's because US producers have done a really good job at um you know, becoming independent. In oil, we still import some oil. So, we're not fully independent, but WTI, which is the US crude oil benchmark, is trading much lower than uh Brent and that tells us that we are at least a little bit sheltered. So, I don't The reason I'm saying this is I don't think the 70s scenario is a real likely possibility because we are such a big oil producer in this environment. Um and 2022 is a little a little different also, but I think um I just personally think the the US economy's kind of been running on the the steam of money printing for so long. I think we're we're we're due for a nice just reset of everything in my opinion. And I think um you know, hopefully our our central bankers allow that to happen. In the past any sign of trouble, we start printing and printing and printing to work our way out of it, but the natural business cycle it comes with booms and busts and I hope we go back to that cycle cuz I do think it uh is a healthier environment and I you know, for all of us. I'll just leave it at that. Yeah. Yeah, well, and that that is also an interesting point because we're we're approaching our our Fed chair transition where it looks like we should have somebody new coming in who might be more in agreement with what President Trump would like to do. So, does does how does that I guess play into your expectations for the economy? Uh well, it's interesting when when silver and gold peaked, it was literally right around the day that President Trump announced that he was going to appoint uh Warsh as the the Fed chair. And I think I think there's a reason for that. I think that kind of popped the de- debasement trade because um assuming he gets confirmed and everything goes as as planned, he is somebody that has acknowledged that uh the money printing has created some bubbles and some problems in the economy and isn't a long-term fix to our problems. So, I do believe that you know, I I do believe that we enter into a kind of a a new era of of less government intervention and hopefully more free market. Well, it seems like we we kind of came full circle. We're back around with gold and silver again. So, we can we can start to wrap it up. I wanted to ask before I let you go, looking at the commodity sector, we've gone through it some of the the main topics that we typically look at here on our channel. Are there other areas of opportunity that you would highlight, things that you are really paying attention to right now? Uh so, some interesting things that in this environment, whether you're trading grains or you know, literally anything you're trading, you're trading oil because everything is moving either with or in opposite of oil just due to that's how war markets work. So, if you are somebody that follows the the grains, so corn, wheat, soybeans, um I would probably suggest if you've made money on the upside, probably take some profits cuz the issue is we're we're following crude higher, but if you take the crude oil trade away, uh grains are going to have a hard time holding these levels based on their own fundamentals. So, we're playing the downside in in some of those grains, not heavily uh and with limited risk because if we were wrong in our assessment, you know, commodities go down more than they go up, but when they go up, they go up faster than they go down usually as just like we've seen in gold and silver. So, you have to be careful. But I think uh being bearish in the grains is probably a good idea. Um but I and I'll mention the yen one more time. The yen has really, really suffered for many, many reasons. There's all kinds of things going on. The infamous carry trade has kind of pushed it lower and lower over the years. The energy crisis that we're currently going through has been uh really a a headwind for the yen. But we're sitting at multi-year lows, uh near almost an all all-time low. The option market is still pricing in very low volatility, so it's not that expensive to speculate on on the yen reversing course. And I'm not saying there's fundamentals there to suggest that we reverse course, but again, if the war ends and crude oil comes down, that's going to push the yen higher. But more interestingly is the Bank of Japan has a habit of like intervening in currency markets. It does it every once in a while, and when it does it, uh the yen makes really big moves. So, for a very small amount of money uh put on the table, you can actually play the yen in a pretty decent way. Okay, well, that's that'll be a good one for people to look into. And I'll let you go unless you want to let everybody know where they can find you online if they want to hear more. So, I appreciate you having me. Uh again, my name is Carley Garner. I'm with DeCarley Trading. Our website's decarleytrading.com. You can also find us on X, and if you're you know, we are a brokerage, but if you're not interested in brokerage services, if you just want to hear commentary, see some charts, that sort of thing, we have a Substack. You can visit us at decarleytrading.substack.com. Perfect. Well, we'll have your links in the video description, so people can check them out. Thank you so much for coming on. This was great, really informative. And once again, I'm Charlotte McLeod with investingnews.com, and this is Carley Garner with DeCarley Trading. Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit [music] the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below.
Carley Garner: Gold, Silver, Oil — My Price Calls and Strategies
Summary
Transcript
I'm Charlotte McLeod with investingnews.com and here today with me is Carley Garner, commodity broker and strategist at DeCarley Trading. Thank you so much for being here. Great to have you. Of course, thanks for having me. Really excited to have this conversation today. I did think since it's our first time talking, if you could start with a brief introduction to yourself and your work and how you came to be in this sector, that would be great. Sure. So So my name is Carley Garner. I run a boutique brokerage shop in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a futures and options broker, so we offer speculating and hedging in commodities. Uh crude oil, grains, meats, energies, uh well, metals, any anything you could think of that trades on the CME exchange or the ICE exchange, we we trade it and hedge it. Perfect. And today, where I wanted to start is with gold. I reached out because I had come across your one of your posts on LinkedIn about gold and I'm seeing a lot of questions from our audience and elsewhere about the recent price activity. Of course, we saw gold at all-time highs earlier this year and it's in a pullback right now and especially since the war on war started, it's it's come back down and I think a lot of people are wondering why that's happening given that gold is supposed to be a hedge against instability. So, I wonder if we can start there and take a look at what's going on with gold, what's driving the price right now and why we are seeing downward action instead of upward. Right. So, the gold market has been um a little unconventional. It's It's basically kind of taken on a a separate another personality. There's been Let me start by saying the correlation between gold and other markets such as stocks um or bonds or anything kind of fluctuates, so it's not always an absolute, but conventional wisdom expects gold to trade higher when stocks are selling off and vice versa. But that really just isn't always the case and especially if you look at a gold chart like a monthly chart of gold versus the S&P, somewhere along the line and I would basically argue that around the time that um 2020, 2021 when a lot of liquidity came into the system to combat the the COVID or the shut COVID shutdowns, whatever you want to call them, a lot of liquidity came into the system and somewhere along the line gold became a risk asset. And what I mean by that is the gold and the S&P started trading in lockstep together overall. And the big rally that we saw in gold um was matched, not quite matched in magnitude, but matched in direction uh by the S&P. So, there be gold is basically at this point, it's not really diversifying anybody's portfolio, it's actually adding risk to their stock portfolio is what's going on. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people realized that when they were buying gold late 2025, early 2026. I think people were assuming it was some sort of a hedge against uh turmoil global turmoil, that's what they were thinking and it's turned out to be the opposite. And I'll also add um there were a lot of reasons to be long gold in the beginning. Like when we're talking $2,000 gold, maybe even the high twos, low threes, there's good fundamental reasons to be long gold, inflation was uh hanging around, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty in the on the global stage. So, I'm not saying there was no reason to be long gold, but I I do think that the market really got uh over its skis by probably 2,000 points to be honest. I don't think gold had any business fundamentally being above 5,000, probably even above 4,000, but sometimes markets do that. Um it kind of in my opinion, and I know a lot of people have differing opinions, but to me it felt a lot like a meme stock or like GameStop where the the idea went viral, the narrative went viral and everybody was buying because of the narrative, but they weren't paying attention to price or risk. And eventually those things do matter and I think that's what we saw when gold started correcting a month or so ago. Very very interesting take on gold and I wonder with that in mind, where where does the gold price go from here? You know, you mentioned it maybe it didn't have any business being above 5,000 or even 4,000. Of course, right now we are we are still above 4,000, so what do you see coming? So, we've seen a couple of things uh that are red flags to me. We've seen really massive spikes in volatility in the option market and obviously volatility on the price chart if you look at the price of gold. Um we've seen this a couple other times in history. In 1979-80, we saw gold behave like this. In 2011, we saw gold go parabolic, not nearly to the nature that we had seen this last year, but it was a similar pattern. Um and in those previous two instances, those that was the high in gold. It wasn't the beginning of some giant bull market gold, that was actually the end of the bull market. And when I look at uh historical volatility, implied volatility in the option market, when we see these really massive pumps in volatility, those are generally occurring at when in at trend changes, not at the beginning or middle of a trend, but at the end of a trend. So, my best guess is we've probably seen the highs in gold, but that doesn't mean we can't get some really sharp uh back and forth here in the meantime. In fact, the downtrend line comes in somewhere around 5,300 if I'm uh correct in my memory. So, it's a very possible we poke above 5,000 on the snapback rally before sellers really start coming back in. But uh I do think in the overall scheme of things, again, if you look at 2011 and and 1980-ish, you'll see that these types of explosive parabolic rallies are proved to be unsustainable, um but they also prove to be kind of hotbeds of volatility for the next several months while the market works it out and that means we're going to have big rallies, but also big sell-offs. Again, again, very interesting. So, more volatility potentially ahead for gold and of course, it's not really supposed to be a a volatile asset either. So, if we take a step back for gold and we look at the overall cycle, where would you place this at the moment for gold? Uh as far as the the overall cycle, I think we're going into a a bear market in the last couple of occasions that we've seen this type of behavior in gold and you make a really good point. People call gold a safe haven asset, but you know, I've been doing this for over 20 years and there's really nothing safe about gold. It can get really really wild at times just like we're seeing. It doesn't pay interest or dividends and you know, everybody likes to talk about the how quickly gold has risen the last couple of years and that's it's been amazing, but it's also padded the numbers. So, if you start looking at performance of gold versus the S&P, it looks really really great at this point in time, but I remember in 2011, it they also looked great. You know, everybody was saying um you know, gold's outperforming the S&P, this so on and so forth, exactly what we're hearing today, but then gold went on a bear in a 9 to 10 year bear market. So, we have to be really really careful. Just because the numbers look really great today doesn't mean uh going forward it's going to be the same. You know, in finance they always say you know, uh past results aren't indicative of future results and that's exactly what I think we're looking at in gold. So, I although I do believe we're going to have some really big rallies and some working out to do, I think the big picture is we're going into a bear market in gold. So, how would you be approaching gold at this point? Would you be would you be trading at the time and what would you be looking to do given the the circumstances that you're outlining? That is a great question and I wish I had a magical answer, but the reality is gold is so difficult to trade at this particular time. The margins are very high, so if you're trade trying to trade in the futures markets, the margins are so uh excessive and for good reason. Margins are high because volatility is high and it's it's a risky market at this particular time. So, the margins are so high, it's difficult for a lot of traders to get involved and if they do get involved and they try to do uh you know, conventional risk management like place stop orders, they're almost guaranteed to get stopped out before they see any any positive results. So, it's just a it's a really uh very very difficult market. And lastly, if you're if you're the type of person that's trying to just buy options cuz to keep your risk limited, on the surface that sounds like a great idea because um you know, I just mentioned the margins are high, so buying a call sounds like a great idea if you think gold's going up, but the problem is option markets are always priced to lose and calls are very very expensive. So, you're talking about risking several thousand dollars on an option that's quite a ways out of the money. So, there's just no easy way to play gold. Um my best advice would be paper trade it, stay on the sidelines or if you're a long-term investor, you know, maybe uh I'm talking long-term like decades, not months or weeks. If you're that type of investor and you want to buy some gold, you know, maybe do it in a in an unleveraged way, bullion or maybe even the uh an ETF, but go very small. Gold's the type of market you want to buy it when nobody wants it, not when everybody wants it. And so, although we're on an upswing and I think we have some some way to go on the upside, um timing it and getting out isn't going to be that easy. So, uh caution is warranted. Fair enough. Fair enough and we do I think have many people in our audience who are those very long-term gold holders, so that that could apply there. You had mentioned the relationship between gold and the stock market and how maybe gold wasn't providing that diversification that people might want to see. So, what do you see coming from the stock market in that case in a in a broad sense given what we've talked about for gold? Well, I mean, the stock market is is obviously in a corrective mode. We're getting a really nice bounce here over the last couple of days, but you know, war markets and bear markets see really big bounces. I'm not sure I'm convinced that the lows are in in the stock market. Uh in fact, there's you know, there's some pretty good resistance coming up here in the next 100 points or so in the S&P. So, we have to be really, really careful with with what we see here. And also, again, I've been doing this for a long time. This has been one of the most tremendous bull markets of all time. If you're looking over the the last several years, it's just been a doozy. Um but I am old enough to have experienced the global financial crisis, and I do remember there were, you know, from early 2000s through uh the financial crisis in the early 2010s, you know, there was over a decade where nobody made any money in stocks. It was just kind of dead weight. So, history suggests that eventually we're going to get back to that stage. I don't know if that's this year. I don't know if it's 5 years from now, but we should always keep that in the back of our mind. So, I personally uh would be you know, I'm not saying um don't take any risk at all in the stock market, but I am saying we should continue to be cautious because I don't think we're out of the woods just yet. There's going to be a lot of volatility in the headlines. And it is a midterm election year. Midterm election years usually have really rough Aprils. So, there's a lot of things that work against the stock market at this particular time. Um so, I would be very careful chasing prices higher in the bounces. If you're if you're a long-term investor, um the odds are you probably get a better dip to to buy into. All right. So, again, again that caution. And while we're on precious metals, I want to bring up silver as well. I'm curious if your outlook there is similar to gold or if it's different. Silver, of course, it's got its precious side. It's also got the industrial component that can make it a little bit different. So, are you seeing similar times ahead for silver or or something a little bit different? My outlook is pretty similar in silver, uh which is not optimistic. Um I actually am in the middle of writing an article for our Substack that is comparing what we saw in silver over the last 6 months to what we saw in GameStop in 2021, 2022. And it's really crazy if you overlay the charts, they're almost identical um to the parabolic moves in GameStop and silver. And I actually, when I think about it, I think a a lot of the cards aligned. I realize GameStop is kind of a worthless uh I don't want to say worthless, but not the most valuable company in the world. And silver, as you mentioned, has a lot of properties, industrial properties that make it valuable. But if you take out uh those two factors and just look at the environment as a whole, there's a lot of similarities, kind of um meme stock uh piling on of a certain idea, a lot of out-of-the-money call option pump-and-dump schemes going on online. And so, I I feel like we're we've GameStopped silver, and I hate to say that cuz as a commodity broker, I encourage speculation in commodities, but I think things have kind of went off the rail with the with silver, and I didn't really like what I saw. There was way too much volatility that had nothing to do with fundamentals. I think the market detached itself from fundamentals, and that's a dangerous game uh in the long run. So, I I do think silver probably saw its high in the 120s here, and I think we're like gold, in the middle of some switchback volatility, which, to be fair, could easily see $90 in silver, maybe even $100 in silver. So, you have to be really careful. Sometimes these parabolic moves, as they go into as they as they flip from a treacherous bull market to a treacherous bear market, we usually get several months of back and fill and back and fill before it finally succumbs to gravity and just uh kind of trades lower for several years. That's been the pattern in gold and silver. But the snapback rallies could be very, very sharp. And it what it does is it makes the, you know, people that bought into those narratives and headlines. And I'm I'm not saying they were wrong. I'm just saying you couldn't uh justify the pricing with those headlines, in my opinion. So, a lot of people will also hang on to those narratives and ideas. And, you know, if they liked it at 120, they're going to like it even better at 60 or 70. And so, that's why you get these really big snapback rallies. But the eventual outcome is probably going to be similar to GameStop, where we give a lot of the gains back and go back into a subdued trading range. Well, and for silver, it's it's very interesting because we made it past that $50 level, and of course, much, much higher, as you're talking about. And I think people maybe I mean, many people would still think it can go higher again. But there's also the question of, all right, if we go if we stay lower, do we stay in a range that's above that $50 level? Are we in some people are calling it maybe a new paradigm for silver? Or do we go back to where it was before, below that $50 level? So, any any thoughts on that? Well, that's that's an amazing point. I I would agree with you. I I think we at least see 50, and then we'll just kind of have to see what it does with that. I personally think we probably gets into a range between 30 and 50. I think that's probably the the fair price. That's my guess. Um you know, the US dollar you have to recall a lot of the narrative behind the silver rally what and the gold rally was the US dollar is weakening and so on and so forth. And if you're looking at the dollar against other currencies, it's actually rallying most of this year. It's not weakening. And I know there's the argument was also fiat currency losing its value, but uh when war broke out, the first thing that the world did was buy US dollars. And so, and the treasury market um has sold off a little bit on the on the war because of expectations of inflation, but there's it didn't sell off that much. In fact, we haven't made new lows relative to last year's lows. So, I would say there's still some interest in money flowing into the dollar and treasuries. And so, that isn't necessarily indicative to the bullish case in metals. So, I do think that um chances are silver trades below $50. The time frame is uncertain. Maybe it takes 6 months. Maybe it takes a year, but I think we do see it. Yeah, I think timing is always very tricky to get. And talking more about volatility and what's happening with the war, I want to shift over and see what's going on in oil prices. So, there's been a lot of interesting price action. Prices have been above and below the $100 per barrel level, and there's so much uncertainty right now. What do you see coming for oil prices? Where Where do we go from here? What can we say at this point? Uh so, obviously we can't see the future. All we can do is um judge what's happened in the past and try to make guesses. So, that's what I'm doing. I'm kind of focused on what happened in 2022. In 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine, and the oil market rallied very sharply to about 130, not un not unlike what we just saw. Uh it was a it was a very sharp rally. And the idea was Russian oil was going to be sanctioned, and all that supply was going to be taken off the the board, and we were no longer going to have enough oil to supply the global market. That war is still going on. Russia's oil is still sanctioned. Yet we found a way for oil to get down to 55 after all of these things. So, I think, you know, the all I'm trying to say is the market has a tendency to price in the worst-case scenario. Um but oil is a very important commodity to to literally everyone on the globe, and somehow or some way, people generally figure it out. They figured out a way to get around the sanctions. The Strait of Hormuz is maybe a little more difficult, but you already see Saudi Arabia using pipelines to get uh a good chunk of their their output, you know, out on a different part of the country. Um Pipelines are going to take a while to build, but I always suspect this is going to be a lot like 2020. In 2020, we experienced COVID, and then the US we decided, you know what, our supply chains were working very well before COVID, but then we realized we were too reliant on countries that we couldn't trust. And I think the oil industry is going to uh basically come to that same conclusion. I think in, you know, everybody had this in the back of their mind. We all knew that at someday the Strait of Hormuz could be used as a weapon, but nobody, you know, until it actually happens, people uh put off and, you know, procrastinate making a plan. Now that it's happened, I think that everybody's going to put a plan together. So, 5 to 10 years from now, I don't think the Strait of Hormuz is going to be the chokehold that it is today. I don't think it'll be possible to shut shut down that much oil in one little area of the world. I think uh people work it around, and it and it figures itself out. That said, as far as what happens in the next 6 months, I think we do get a repeat of 2022 because um while it's true the strait is mostly closed, there's some oil that's been sidetracked in getting through, and that's a problem. But I'm trying to be optimistic, and I think that everybody will work it out, and the oil will start coming through again. And if it does, in the meantime, we've added supply from Venezuela. Uh we've added supply from there's some California offshore rigs that have been retirement for 10 years, and they're coming back online. Every small producer in the country sees these prices, and they're they're starting to pick up steam. So, I think we'll actually, you know, we went into this war with an oil glut, and I think we probably come out with it with a bigger glut at some point. Again, is it next month, or is it 5 months from now? I wish I knew. Uh but I think that's ultimately what we're going to see. That That would be very interesting to actually come out of this with more supply than we had before. And so, I'll I'll ask again. So, this this again is a tricky situation. How are you approaching this from a trading standpoint? Cuz it seems like another one where it's it's probably pretty difficult to make moves with certainty. Yeah, you know, it interesting um crude oil's been it's been wild, but it's actually been a lot easier to manage than gold and silver were. The gold and silver were so off the charts wild. You know, oil's done this before. Gold and silver had never behaved the way that they did before. So, this it's kind of that was new territory. And why that matters is the option market in oil has been very functional. It hasn't broken at all. [clears throat] In fact, it's been very civilized and very fluid and the bid ask spreads are tight. Uh the futures markets have had some big moves, but um margin increases have been reasonable and you know, everybody's kind of been able to cope with it mostly. We were lucky because going into the war we had we were expecting um let me put it this way. March is usually a really crazy month for oil. Usually get some really big volatility March. I'm not sure why it happens. I haven't been able to figure out why, but it just always happens. So, we were expecting volatility, but we were expecting it to be on the downside because we were in a glut situation. We just didn't see a war coming. So, that changed things on a dime. But we we had purchased deep out of the money puts hoping that that volatility spike would be in the downside. We were wrong, but it's okay cuz we luckily didn't have any upside unlimited risk, but as prices have rallied uh just a couple of days ago we actually were comfortable enough to sell calls and buy puts. And the reason we do something like that is the market's wildly volatile. The option market's pricing in tons of volatility. So, we were able to sell strike prices $30 out of the money for 4 or 5,000 dollars, which is really If you've ever traded oil before, that's really impressive. Usually uh 30 40 dollars out of the money are worth 200 dollars, 300 dollars, not five grand. So, there is a lot of premium out there and we used those short call sales to to finance uh the purchase of puts or put spreads and we did it that way. But yeah, you have to be very, very careful. That's not for everybody. That's uh you know, I'm not recommending anybody do that. I'm just explaining how we do it. If you're a speculator, but you're you know, you're not willing to sell naked calls, I don't blame you at all. The CME actually has micro futures that are small enough that you can trade them and not get your head ripped off even if you're a little wrong. So, if you like the simplicity of futures, try using the the micros. Appreciate appreciate the different ideas for people with different comfort levels. And on the note of oil prices, I want to ask about inflation because I'm seeing a lot of concerns about what happens to inflation due to higher prices. And maybe we could focus on the commodity sector because I'm I'm hearing for example concerns about prices for miners that use fuel and and that kind of thing. So, what do you see coming on on that note? Well, uh one thing that I should have should have mentioned in the last question. I'm just going to an- offer that real quick. Another way to play crude oil is to find a market that's a lot tamer, but is correlated to it. So, for example, the Japanese yen has been selling off in lock step as crude oil went up. The options in the yen market are very, very cheap for literally less than far less than a thousand dollars, 6 700 bucks, you can buy an option with three months that has uh that isn't very far that far out of the money. If oil reverses lower, the yen will go up and you can make money that way. So, that's one thing to keep in mind. As far as the inflation goes, it's a little bit tricky because if oil spikes higher while the economy is really hot, that's inflationary cuz it raises the prices everything and there's too much money chasing too few goods and prices go up. But going into this war, we were starting to see some of our economic numbers crack a little bit. The jobs numbers were softening. Now, um whether that continues is is still a question mark, but I would argue that in this particular case, the economy was starting to slow down just a little bit and oil spiked so quickly. Like if you've ever if you filled out your if you filled up your car, you know, gas is probably about double what it was uh pre-war. So, that takes a lot of money out of the economy, out of consumers' pockets and it really puts a a big chokehold on the economy very quickly. So, I actually think this particular spike is not inflationary at all. I think it's deflationary because I think it takes way too much money out of the economy to keep us going uh on all fours all cylinders. So, you we'll have to see how it pans out, but um I'll also point to 2008. In 2008, oil rallied to 150 dollars a barrel very, very quickly. And during that time we were go- in one of the most prosperous uh economic conditions of all time, but the rally in oil actually popped everything and we went into the financial crisis short after. So, when oil spikes this sharply, sometimes it breaks things in the economy and we and it puts us into recession. Uh 2011 we saw something similar. So, um 2022 when oil spiked, we didn't go into a recession officially, but if you recall the administration changed the rules on what constituted a recession. So, maybe we did, but I'm just saying I actually think this is deflationary, not inflationary cuz I think it slows down the economy enough to do just that. Yes. Yeah, I do remember changing that definition again again very tricky. Okay, that's really interesting. So, deflation potentially ahead. I was I was going to ask I had in mind to ask you about these stagflation type of headlines that I've been seeing, but instead maybe deflation. Anything further you would add on that because it's it's not a scenario that I've heard talked about very much at this point in time. Yeah. Um you're right. It's it's kind of the popular narrative is and I think most people are assuming that we're going to get a repeat of the 70s or even a repeat of 22 where we had an energy crisis and the price of everything went up, but I'll remind people we the US is mostly energy independent, not completely, but if you look at natural gas prices in the US versus what's going on overseas, it's actually quite stunning. Our natural gas prices are under three and in Europe they're contending with just parabolic uh pricing over there. And that's a lot different than what we've seen in the past and it's because US producers have done a really good job at um you know, becoming independent. In oil, we still import some oil. So, we're not fully independent, but WTI, which is the US crude oil benchmark, is trading much lower than uh Brent and that tells us that we are at least a little bit sheltered. So, I don't The reason I'm saying this is I don't think the 70s scenario is a real likely possibility because we are such a big oil producer in this environment. Um and 2022 is a little a little different also, but I think um I just personally think the the US economy's kind of been running on the the steam of money printing for so long. I think we're we're we're due for a nice just reset of everything in my opinion. And I think um you know, hopefully our our central bankers allow that to happen. In the past any sign of trouble, we start printing and printing and printing to work our way out of it, but the natural business cycle it comes with booms and busts and I hope we go back to that cycle cuz I do think it uh is a healthier environment and I you know, for all of us. I'll just leave it at that. Yeah. Yeah, well, and that that is also an interesting point because we're we're approaching our our Fed chair transition where it looks like we should have somebody new coming in who might be more in agreement with what President Trump would like to do. So, does does how does that I guess play into your expectations for the economy? Uh well, it's interesting when when silver and gold peaked, it was literally right around the day that President Trump announced that he was going to appoint uh Warsh as the the Fed chair. And I think I think there's a reason for that. I think that kind of popped the de- debasement trade because um assuming he gets confirmed and everything goes as as planned, he is somebody that has acknowledged that uh the money printing has created some bubbles and some problems in the economy and isn't a long-term fix to our problems. So, I do believe that you know, I I do believe that we enter into a kind of a a new era of of less government intervention and hopefully more free market. Well, it seems like we we kind of came full circle. We're back around with gold and silver again. So, we can we can start to wrap it up. I wanted to ask before I let you go, looking at the commodity sector, we've gone through it some of the the main topics that we typically look at here on our channel. Are there other areas of opportunity that you would highlight, things that you are really paying attention to right now? Uh so, some interesting things that in this environment, whether you're trading grains or you know, literally anything you're trading, you're trading oil because everything is moving either with or in opposite of oil just due to that's how war markets work. So, if you are somebody that follows the the grains, so corn, wheat, soybeans, um I would probably suggest if you've made money on the upside, probably take some profits cuz the issue is we're we're following crude higher, but if you take the crude oil trade away, uh grains are going to have a hard time holding these levels based on their own fundamentals. So, we're playing the downside in in some of those grains, not heavily uh and with limited risk because if we were wrong in our assessment, you know, commodities go down more than they go up, but when they go up, they go up faster than they go down usually as just like we've seen in gold and silver. So, you have to be careful. But I think uh being bearish in the grains is probably a good idea. Um but I and I'll mention the yen one more time. The yen has really, really suffered for many, many reasons. There's all kinds of things going on. The infamous carry trade has kind of pushed it lower and lower over the years. The energy crisis that we're currently going through has been uh really a a headwind for the yen. But we're sitting at multi-year lows, uh near almost an all all-time low. The option market is still pricing in very low volatility, so it's not that expensive to speculate on on the yen reversing course. And I'm not saying there's fundamentals there to suggest that we reverse course, but again, if the war ends and crude oil comes down, that's going to push the yen higher. But more interestingly is the Bank of Japan has a habit of like intervening in currency markets. It does it every once in a while, and when it does it, uh the yen makes really big moves. So, for a very small amount of money uh put on the table, you can actually play the yen in a pretty decent way. Okay, well, that's that'll be a good one for people to look into. And I'll let you go unless you want to let everybody know where they can find you online if they want to hear more. So, I appreciate you having me. Uh again, my name is Carley Garner. I'm with DeCarley Trading. Our website's decarleytrading.com. You can also find us on X, and if you're you know, we are a brokerage, but if you're not interested in brokerage services, if you just want to hear commentary, see some charts, that sort of thing, we have a Substack. You can visit us at decarleytrading.substack.com. Perfect. Well, we'll have your links in the video description, so people can check them out. Thank you so much for coming on. This was great, really informative. And once again, I'm Charlotte McLeod with investingnews.com, and this is Carley Garner with DeCarley Trading. Thank you for watching. If you like this video, make sure you hit [music] the like button and subscribe to our channel. We'd also love to hear your thoughts, so leave us a comment below.