Why Silver's $125 Peak Was Just The First Stop | Peter Schiff
Summary
Wall Street is pushing toward record highs, but the bond market is flashing a severe warning. Peter Schiff, CEO and Chief Global …
Transcript
Welcome back. I'm Jeremy Sappern. Okay, Wall Street is pushing towards new record highs this morning, but the bond market is not buying it. Equities are trading on US peace hopes, but the 30-year Treasury is above 5% a near post 2007 high. And the 10-year is holding near 450. Meanwhile, gold around 4,500, silver 76. And we just got consumer confidence. Twothirds of Americans say they're cutting back on spending because of rising prices. University of Michigan sentiment hit record lows last week. And we have a new Fed chair. Kevin Walsh was sworn in on Friday. And traders are now starting to cut a rate hike, not a cut. Uh we've got a lot to get into today here joining us to cut through the rumors and the noise. The macro reality man himself. We got Peter Schiff on the show, CEO, chief global strategist of Europacific Asset Management. Good to see you. Uh Jeremy, thanks for having me on. Nice to see you. >> Hey, we got uh I mean it's an interesting market, right? We we had a holiday Monday this morning. Stocks are rallying uh on Iran peace hopes. Bonds are not going along for the ride. Uh 30-year like I said above 5 10 year near 450. Gold still holding around, you know, 4500 even with this pullback. I mean, what is the bond market seeing right now that equity traders are completely walking past? Well, I think the bond traders are kind of walking past it, too. Maybe not as blindly as the equity traders because I think if the bond investors really perceived the the gravity of the threat, yields would already be a lot higher than they are right now. I still think that the US government is getting off cheap, being able to borrow money for 30 years at just 5%. You you know you could go look back at what the US government was paying to borrow money in the 80s and the 90s let alone the 70s and it was paying a lot more than that but we were a lot uh better credit risk back then because we had a lot less debt and therefore you know we didn't have to print nearly as much money to service it. So, I I I think at least the bond market is starting to pay attention, but I think yields are going a lot higher on the longer end in particular. And eventually the stock market is going to notice that and you're going to start to see some weakness there. And then I think gold is going to break out of this consolidation because investors have been focusing on the nominal increase in yields >> as if somehow that is a negative for gold. It's not. Nominal interest rates are irrelevant. It's real interest rates that count and I think real interest rates are falling uh even on the long end because inflation is accelerating a lot more than yields are rising. Meanwhile, the Fed has stayed pat. The Fed hasn't hiked rates and that amounts to a rate cut and all of this is bullish for gold. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay. So, Scott Pian, he's been described as the market's volatility manager, the best put as we know. I mean the idea is he shifts issuance to the front end, uses buybacks, calms the long bond and on May 12th he called the yield spike um transient. I mean that word has a history at the Federal Reserve. I mean is this sound debt management or is it a warning sign that that you know the long end no longer wants the paper at any rate that it can actually live with? Yeah. >> Yeah. You think they would have retired transient from the vocabulary over there at the Fed and come up with a a different adjective to describe to describe it, but uh the only thing that's transient is uh the rate at which rates are going up because I think they're going to go up a lot faster in the future. So, I think uh uh the new se the new Fed Fed chair uh has uh a big problem on his hands. Um as does the Secretary of the Treasury, I think. uh uh you know, we're going to be looking at a sovereign debt crisis and a US dollar crisis I think before the end of the Trump term. >> It's coming up. It's coming up. Um okay, obviously bond market rejecting that peace rally best since kind of running out of easy options. And now you just mentioned it, this new Fed chair at what may be the worst possible moment to start the job. I mean just this morning, former Fed, New York Fed President Bill Dudley was on Bloomberg. He said, and and I'm quoting here, "We've been above the Fed's inflation target for more than 5 years. There's a risk that inflation expectations do finally become unanchored." He also said, "The case for cutting rates now is actually very, very weak." Okay, Kevin Walsh sworn in Friday, traders pricing an 8 12% chance of a July rate hike. One month ago, that number was under 1%. I mean, is Dudley finally catching up to where you've been? And and does a hawkish war actually help the Fed's credibility, or is it already too late? Well, first of all, I think hawks are extinct at the Fed. So, it's a question of the degrees of dovishness. Uh there are no more hawks. And you know, by the way, uh inflation expectations broke off their mooring uh a long time ago. I mean, when the Fed talks about we want to make sure that expectations remain anchored at 2%, I mean, those horses have left the bart. I mean, if you look at the most recent uh numbers from the consumer, they're expecting inflation over the next 10 years to average about 4%. So, those expectations are already double what uh the Fed's so-called target is. And I think even the consumer is is too optimistic. I think inflation is going to be higher uh than that. And and I think in the bond market, expectations are drifting away. Uh and they're going to drift a lot further away because 2% at this point is a pipe dream. They're not going to come close uh to two. They won't even come close to three. And again, these numbers aren't even accurate. These are the government's inflation numbers that by design uh maybe get half of the actual increase that consumers are experiencing when it comes to the cost of living. Uh so you know so so inflation is a big big problem. It's going to get much worse. Uh you know Donald Trump likes to pretend that the Biden inflation is gone. Uh and first of all, it started under his term. Uh the big increase in consumer prices started at the end of the Trump term and then continued into the Biden term. Uh we would have seen the same type of inflation in 2021, 2022, even if Trump were reelected. So, you know, not that I'm giving Biden, you know, a pass on this. I'm not. uh but you have to attribute everything to the policies that began uh under COVID uh which happened on Trump's watch uh not not not Biden's but I think the Trump second term in its entirety is going to uh deliver a bigger increase in the cost of living than the Biden term. So it's going to be a bigger problem inflation in Trump's second term than it was under Biden. uh especially in the last two years. I think that's where it's going to be the worst. Under Biden, inflation was the worst during his first two years, but I think in Trump, it's going to be the back end of his term, the last two years where inflation is going to be uh the worst probably into the double digits. >> Wow. Uh and people are feeling that pinch now as we know. I mean, the the headlines are are crazy. I mean, going back to the Fit, if if the real hawks are gone, is the credibility I mean, what what what the hell does it mean now? Is credibility about fighting inflation or just preventing the Treasury market from breaking at this point? >> Well, you know, I I I think the credibility is is is going. That's why gold went up to 5,500. I mean, that big rally from 2000 to over 5,000 was driven almost entirely by central banks. And the fact that central banks were buying is an indication of a loss of confidence in the US dollar, in the Fed, in the Treasury, uh retail investors, you know, the people, you know, that might, you know, go to Kicko or shift gold, you know, they weren't there. They weren't buying gold. Uh they were selling. Yeah. You know, in fact, if you look at the ETF investors, there were net outflows in 2024 and 2025. the whole time the price of gold was going up uh investors were were selling uh and and so that you know that the confidence was lost in the central banks that the investing public uh I think was clueless but I think that what's going to be the big story going forward is not just that central banks are going to continue to buy and accelerate their buying but the retail public and institutions I think are going to become significant buyers in in their own right uh as they really start to appreciate the risk to the US dollar and also uh a lot of the crypto investors uh basically throw in the towel on that and realize they kind of got suckered into a into a pyramid Ponzi type scheme and that Bitcoin isn't actually digital gold and so you're going to see a rush uh to get into the real thing. You know, we got to talk digital gold for a moment, but let me just try to kind of break this down for viewers who are newer to this conversation because I mean, we just got our consumer confidence. Twothirds of consumers cutting back on spending. University of Michigan is at a record low. And yet, the trap, as I understand it, I mean, the Fed can't rate raise rates aggressively because that crushes the cost of servicing. 38 trillion in debt. And uh the 30-year mortgage is already at 665. But it can't cut either without pouring fuel on the inflation and developing the dollar, you know, further. So, I mean, is that the trap? And what is the only exit? >> Well, there is no exit. I mean, the Fed uh uh and Congress, I mean, it's not just the Fed, but but they put us in this situation where there is no way out. Uh because you have two two doors. One is hyperinflation and the other is a depression, a financial crisis uh you know a complete collapse of the the economy. Not that hyperinflation avoids that, it just uh maybe delays it a bit and and it takes on an even worse form. Uh but there is no graceful exit. There is no soft landing. Uh you know that's why nobody wants to deal with the problem. you know, uh, a former Secretary of the Treasury, um, Hank Pollson, you know, recently came out and said that the US needs to develop a a break the glass kind of emergency plan to deal with uh, the situation when uh, foreigners no longer want to loan us money and they don't want to buy our bonds. Uh, so we have to figure out an emergency plan. He didn't even, you know, talk about, hey, let's try to avert this crisis. Let's get ahead of it. Let's make some cuts to government spending so that we don't have to face this crisis. He just resigned himself to the fact that the crisis was inevitable, that the government would never do anything uh to prevent it or preempt it, and it was just, you know, let's brace for the impact of this crash. Uh but the problem is I don't think there's a plan that is going to work there. You we are going to have to pay the piper and it's a big bill because you know we haven't paid it in decades. We keep kicking the can down the road and you know you said 38 trillion. The national debt is now 39.3 or something like that. I mean we're going to hit 40 trillion in a matter of months. I think we're going to hit 50 trillion before Trump finishes his term. and and that's going to be because the Fed is going to be back in QE mode, uh, monetizing a lot of this debt that the rest of the world no longer wants to finance. And that's where a lot of the inflation is going to come from. You know, right now, uh, they've got an excuse. They can blame it on the war with Iran and and obviously that's not helping, but I think the Iran war was more of a catalyst for the breakout in oil and the breakout in bond yields that would have happened anyway. And if it wasn't Iran, it would have been something else. And a lot of people have uh a a a foolish uh view that as soon as the war is over, everything's going to be great. Oil is going to come crashing down. Bond yields are going to come way down. I don't think that's going to happen. I mean, you may have a little bit of a blip, but then I think it's off to the races. I think oil's going a lot higher and so are bond yields. Even if the war ends, uh, which, you know, who knows if that's actually going to happen anytime soon, but even if it does, uh, I think that these trends are going to remain in place. >> You you posted something interesting I was taking a look at this morning about the defeat of Thomas Massie. You said the Republican party exists in name only. Now, you know, we could put the politics kind of to the side. I mean, mechanically tariffs or inflationary spending is not being cut and the Treasury still has to fund that massive growing deficit you were just talking about. I mean, walk me through what that math does to the timeline you're working with. >> Yeah. You know, I think getting uh Massie kicked out of Congress sends a the wrong message to our creditors because he was the lone voice for fiscal responsibility in the Republican party. I mean, he was the sole vote against the big beautiful bill which was a disaster as far as increasing government spending. You know, Republicans got elected criticizing the excess spending of Biden. Yet Massie was the only one that wanted to reduce that spending. All of the other Republicans voted to keep all of the Biden era spending that they objected to and then add some more for good measure, making it worse. And and so I think one of the main reasons they were able to get rid of Massie was because he voted against that bill. Oh, he's not a Republican. He he voted against this tax cut. It wasn't a tax cut. The big beautiful bill was a tax increase because it made government bigger and more expensive. And you measure the cost of government by what it spends, not by what it collects in official taxes, because the difference is made up through inflation. And Thomas Massie didn't want to hit his constituents or the country with the massive inflation tax necessary to pay for the big, beautiful bill. But the message that it sends to our creditors is fiscal responsibility is dead and buried. Certainly the Democrats are not going to be fiscally responsible. They love big government. The more government spends, the better. The party of fiscal restraint was supposed to be the Republicans, but that's gone out the window. And so everybody can tell that we're never going to uh, you know, get our house in order. We're not going to, you know, prevent this uh fiscal uh collapse. We're just going to keep on driving the train until we go over the edge of a cliff. And and so people want to bail out. Central banks don't want to own our currency. They don't want to own our bonds. And soon, nobody will want to own our currency or or our bonds, even Americans. and you know they'll be rushing to get rid of their dollars and getting into gold, getting into silver, getting into hard assets or even other fiat currencies uh to avoid that inflation tax. Now, let's go over to silver for a second because last time you were in this chair, I think it was end of February, silver was approaching $90. I mean, the CMA had just halted GloveX Metals right at the first notice day. You told me you kind of had no idea if it was a coincidence or something more deliberate, but I mean, silver, it's 76 this morning. So, let me ask you directly. I mean, did the did the silver squeeze fail? Did it get delayed? Did the paper market kind of suppress what is still a real physical market problem? Which one you think? >> Well, members, after that, silver went on to top $125 an ounce after that interview. >> Yeah. >> Um, now what's significant is not, oh, silver's fallen back to 76. What's significant is that we blew through 50 and you know that was really the overhead resistance dating back to the Hunt brothers in 2000 I mean 1980 and we couldn't even get to eight to we couldn't even get to 50 in 2011 when gold went above 2,000 um but then we blew through it you know like a hot knife through butter and we you know we went way up to 125 so that was a massive breakout out. It doesn't surprise me that we couldn't sustain that big a move in such a short period of time. But what should be impressive to anybody is that we never went back below 50. We never went anywhere near 50. We broke out and now we're consolidating really in the 70s and we've had, you know, we almost got back up to 90 a week or two ago. Uh so I think this is a beautiful uh breakout and consolidation in the silver market and this is going to resolve itself with another big up move. Uh and you know so that $125 peak that's not the peak for silver. That's just the first stop on a long road that I think is going to see much much higher prices for silver. >> Talk to me a little bit about the the retail demand. I mean you got into it briefly there. I remember that last interview we were also talking about that India SEBI rule kind of up to 35% of $385 billion equity fund pool now going into silver and gold instruments. I mean they moved to kind of domestic spot pricing as well on that one that's been only live for nearly two months. I mean are you seeing any capital show up in the physical market or is it still mostly going through paper? >> Well, I don't even think it's going through paper market either. I think uh there's just not a lot of demand. Now, things did pick up. I mean, if you look at my own experience with Shift Gold and our our sales there, uh 2024 and most of 2025 were pretty uh weak years for sales. I mean, the the the big year that we had was 2020. So, when COVID broke out, there was a big uptick in in retail demand uh for gold and silver. So, we saw that and then it kind of fizzled out and it finally started to come back earlier this year, late last year, early this year when we saw the big moves up. Uh, then we finally saw an uptick in retail demand, which also coincided with a short-term top. Uh, which, you know, is not atypical of the way markets typically trade. But I think that even though demand has come off a bit, uh, it's higher now than it was and I think it's going to continue. I think this correction is maybe scared a few people out of the market and I think the media has uh, you know, highlighted uh, the correction to try to convince people, oh, look at, you know, look, gold's down $1,000. You know, look where silver, it's not a safe haven. you know, silver and gold, they were supposed to go up when we had a war and instead they went down, which is true because they went up so much before the war. Uh, and uh, you know, it was pretty obvious something was going to happen with Iran uh, in the months leading up to it. So, I think gold and silver uh, kind of rallied off uh, of that and then when it, you know, when the rumors became a fact, there was uh, a tendency to sell, which is typical market behavior. But I I think I think you're going to see a a steady upturn in demand. As I said, private investors, both retail and institutional, I think uh the hedge funds, the pensions, the endowments, I think they're going to start moving into gold. And a lot of that money is going to come out of fixed income, not not so much out of the stock market, but out of the bond market. And even you saw it was about a year ago, I think it was Morgan Stanley that talked about tweaking the 6040 uh portfolio to make it 60 2020 where you cut your bond portfolio in half and you put the other half in the gold. I I think investors are going to be looking for a safe haven uh for an inflation hedge. And and I and I do think we're we're going to get a big decline in the stock market at some point. you know, we're at nosebleleed valuations uh in a in a big AI uh tech bubble uh that's at some point going to burst. And when the money is is leaving uh where's it going to go? I think it's much more likely to go to gold uh than US dollars and certainly US treasuries. You brought up an interesting one there and it's important because most people I mean they try to not buy at the top but a lot of people often especially retail often arrives a little late to the party. How do ordinary investors kind of avoid becoming that exit liquidity in in you know a silver spike or maybe a gold spike? >> Well, you know if you bought, you know, $120 silver or $5, $600 gold, I don't think you were necessarily late to the party because the party's not over. But sure, yeah, you should have bought. you didn't have to wait for those spikes to buy. And generally when we have spikes like that, I tell people, look, you know, you could buy, but you know, don't buy everything. I mean, keep, you know, money aside so that if it comes down, you could buy more. And, you know, I had been advising my clients for over 20 years to steadily buy gold and silver when they have extra money. And and so, yes, you might be buying the highs sometimes, uh, but you're also buying the pullbacks. you know, I mean, I started uh getting people into gold under 300 and silver under $5. Uh so when you look back at those buys, uh you know, they were they were pretty good. And even if you bought the highs along the way, a lot of those highs look pretty low, uh looking back from where we are right now. But you know, the usually what motivates people to to to move is something happening with the price. So if the price really starts to shoot up, people get afraid that maybe they're missing out on a bigger move and and they move quickly and and that's, you know, just how the markets work. And sometimes when the market is going down, that's when people should be buying more, but then people get too afraid that it's going to keep falling and so they they don't buy or worse, they sell, right? That's the worst thing you could do is panic and get out. Uh because these are long-term trends uh that are going to continue, I think, for a long long time. you know, gold, uh, when, you know, the country started, you know, we're about to have our 250 year anniversary, although that's of the Declaration of Independence, but the first coinage act of 1792, >> uh, the goal was $20 an ounce, you know, and it stayed $20 an ounce up until 1934. Uh, and then it became $35 and it stayed there until about 1970. But ever since then, the dollar has been collapsing. And now you need $4,500 to buy an ounce of gold. Uh the dollar's already lost 99% of its purchasing power. It's probably going to lose another 99% from here. Uh and so who know, you know, to multiply gold by 100. That's where ultimately it's going to go. Uh the question is how much longer is it going to take to get there? I think the dollar could lose the next 99% of its value a lot faster than it lost the first 99%. >> Yeah. Uh so, you know, you you got you got to just keep on buying. But sure, yeah, you know, try to buy the pullbacks more than the than than than the rallies. Uh but if it takes a rally to get some people off the fence, then that's fine. I have I'm confident that even if you bought the highs, uh you're still going to be glad that you did uh in a few years, but in the meantime, buy more, right? That's what pullbacks are for. They give you an opportunity uh to get a better deal and and average your cost down. Hey, speaking of pullbacks, Michael Bur kind of big short style warning on Nvidia this week. Conditions for an aggressive fall. The the strongest in that stock's history. Consumer concentration at 64% of accounts receivable. Uh AI tokeniz token maxing is what he's quoted kind of overconumption. He says it can't last. So here's the question for you to answer kind of carefully. I mean, you've said that that when that speculative bubble unwinds, most of the money doesn't rotate to gold. It kind of goes into money heaven or it evaporates. If if the AI trade unwinds violently, does that capital come into hard assets and into miners or does it go to money heaven, too? >> Well, most of it goes to money heaven because, you know, the only money that comes out is matched by the money that comes in. M >> uh and so you have to have buyers in order for the sellers to have anything to invest. Uh and so yeah, I mean a lot of the money just disappears. That's the problem. And that's why, you know, it's dangerous to play in these uh manias or pyramid type Ponzi investments because you never know when the music's going to stop. And if you get out in time, uh you can walk away with a lot of winnings. Uh but if you overstay the party uh your paper profits uh turn into huge actual losses as you know you can't actually get the money out. Some people can get their money out but only if it's a few. If a lot of people try to get their money out then it's impossible because when a lot of people want to get out it's because nobody else wants to get in and then you just have a a huge collapse in the price. But obviously some money is going to come out. The question is where's that money going to go? Uh and you know I think some of it is going to go into precious metals. Uh you know uh but a lot of the people that got into the AI bubble might not necessarily be the precious metals type. A lot a lot of us gold bugs aren't even involved in this. Um but uh they may be looking for the next hot thing if they haven't learned their lesson. Uh, but you know, eventually I'm sure that a lot of the people that got in to the AI bubble will eventually be in gold and silver mining stocks because there's no doubt in my mind that eventually that will be a bubble, too. Uh, but I don't we're nowhere near there. uh but but it will be at some point the their investors will get carried away based on uh the enormous uh profits that that happened in the past and that enthusiasm will end up creating a bubble probably in the most riskiest uh stocks and you know at some point I expect just like companies you know put.com on their name during the.com bubble and now you know people became crypto companies or then became AI companies At some point, uh, a lot of companies are going to become gold mining companies, gold mining exploration companies, and they'll put they'll put the word gold in their name, and it'll it'll it'll it'll create, uh, you know, uh, investors wanting to buy the stock. So, that that's going to happen eventually. Hopefully, I'm smart enough to sell everything I've got at that point. >> You'll be out first. Uh okay, let's pivot over to to the miners just just firstly because you I remember your specific call on juniors was that you know the big producers need reserves and they haven't been investing in exploration and in a few buyouts would rerate the whole sector. I mean I I remember we got this equinox or merger but is M&A starting to move here? Where are you thinking we're at in this mining cyclical? >> It's starting. You know we've had I think two or three of the stocks in our portfolio. You know, we manage separately managed accounts at Europe Pacific Asset Management and I also have the Europacific Gold Fund, EPGIX is the the no-load symbol. And we've had a few of our names bought out in recent months. And I think that's going to continue because I don't know what these gold mining companies are going to do with all this cash uh that they're earning. They're not going to just pay it all out in dividends. They're not going to use it all to buy back their own stock. I think they need to uh invest in developing more, you know, reserves to mine in the future. You know, they're mining the reserves now. Uh but what happens when they run out? Uh so they need to be looking to replace what they mine and for my money just going in and buying these junior companies that have, you know, a lot in the pipeline. They just don't have the resources themselves to develop what they already have. I think that's a much smarter, less risky play for the bigger companies than just investing in pure exploration and development, uh, which is a lot riskier because you have no idea what you're ultimately going to find, if you're going to find anything. >> So, I think you're going to see a lot of these, uh, buyouts, which is why, you know, my our fund is about a third in these juniors. And you know that's been a drag on performance in the last couple of years. But I think ultimately that's going to be what causes us to have substantial outperformance because I think all these stocks are going to get bought out for big premiums. Even if the price of gold doesn't go up, that's the beauty of this. If gold just stays around $4 to $5,000 an ounce, that is, you know, a perfect level for these mining companies to make a fortune, uh, assuming their costs don't explode. if their costs stay about where they are and just go up, you know, normally, they're going to make a lot of money and I think they're still going to use that money uh to buy the juniors. So, the junior mining stocks could go up dramatically even if the price of gold doesn't go anywhere. Uh so, I I I think there's there's a lot more upside there than there is a downside. >> Are are you kind of witnessing smarter management, too? I mean, you can remember the last cycle people were overpaying for acquisitions, what have you. I mean, we have Adrian Dayon, somebody that you work with. If if miners are obviously forced to to use cash, doesn't that kind of limit how aggressive they can be? At what point do shareholders punish them for overpaying? We're not there yet. >> Yeah. Well, look, I don't think you can really overpay right now because everything is still so cheap. >> Uh there's still so much pessimism that's built into the market. You know, analysts have really not increased their their forecast for the long-term earnings of these companies because they still haven't accepted the fact that gold's not going back down to a,000 or 1,500. I mean, in fact, the whole way up, uh, analysts expected the gold price to go down. They never understood. If you go back when gold first hit 2000, the analysts were were telling people to sell pneumontic because they thought there was no more upside left in the price of gold. uh yet you know we've more than doubled uh that level uh without a big rush into the mining sector. You haven't seen you know that hasn't happened. Yeah there was a little bit you know earlier this year and you know when you started to see in the mainstream media they started discussing gold and gold mining stocks. Uh you know that made me a bit nervous that we might have a correction although actually hopeful because I got more people I want to get on board. Um but yeah, I mean we finally got uh some mainstream attention right at the peak. Uh but I think this correction uh you know shook all that out. Who knows when the mainstream financial media is going to be focusing on gold stocks again. They may have to double or triple from here before before that happens. >> Yeah. Well, that was my question because I mean, you know, a lot of viewers I put it out on X. A lot of viewers are kind of asking, you know, they say, "Okay, I'm the person who kind of missed that 2025 run." I know you're saying we still have room to go, but they're watching gold at, you know, 4,500. Miners are still at multi-year highs and they feel like they're late. I mean, is the entry point today actually better or worse than it was 6 months ago? And and what's your kind of honest answer to somebody watching right now with say 50 grand? I mean, where do they throw this? Well, look, if you've never bought any of the miners, I think this pullback that we've had from the highs is a a great entry point. Uh would it have been enter better to get in uh a couple of years ago? Sure. But, you know, a lot of these stocks are still trading for lower than they were uh back at the 2011 peak. And at that peak, gold topped out at 2,000. So, you're more than double that. Especially the juniors. I mean, these stocks are still a fraction of what they were trading at back then. Um, and even some of the mid-tier and bigger companies are cheaper today than they were back then. So, you know, you're not paying up if you're buying mining stocks right now, you're still getting a good deal. In fact, in many respects, they're cheaper now than they were when they were half the price. Because when they were half the price, gold was a lot less than half the current price. especially silver, you know, and silver, you know, silver was just languishing in the 20 $30 range for years. Now it's $70 to $80. Uh that that's a big move. Sure, the silver stocks have gone up, but not as much as they should have given how much the price of silver has gone up >> and room to go. Um okay, miners, talk to M&A where where the money's going. Now, I want to kind of make the endgame concrete because this is where I think viewers most need to understand right now. Well, I mean, you know, you you've made the case that price controls come before capital controls. The governments don't stop causing inflation. They're trying to cover up the symptoms as we mentioned. I mean, Trump is already floated capping credit card rates at 10%. We have oil near 95, the biggest inflation surge since 2023. And this Fed chair who may be hiking into a weakening economy. I mean, walk me through the sequence. Price controls first, then what? How does this actually unfold? Well, you know, the one of the main reasons that the government has worked so hard to redefine inflation from an expansion of the money supply and and credit to rising prices is so the government can blame inflation on whoever's raising the prices as opposed to prices going up as a result of a as a consequence of the inflation that preceded the price increases. And and so once the government succeeds in confusing the public as to what inflation is, if they convince the public that inflation is rising prices, then all they have to do is stop prices from rising and they'll stop inflation. And the way they do that is with price controls. Uh but the problem is price controls do not work. Just like, you know, if I put a band-aid on a skin cancer, just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there and it's not spreading and doing more damage. So when you control prices, what you create are shortages uh and and that leads to black markets where the prices are even higher than they were in the legal market before you uh put in the price controls. And also companies will try to find a way around the price controls uh with brand new products that are not subject to those price controls uh so that they can charge a much higher price. Uh so it never works. It didn't work when Richard Nixon tried it. Uh, and it's not going to work if Trump tries it. Um, and yes, you know, they're obviously going to go in that direction because that's the only thing that they can do. They're not going to admit the truth. Uh, so they're going to perpetuate the lie by focusing on the consequences of the inflation that they create, not the actual cause. And not only do I think they'll have price controls, they may have exchange controls. They may make it harder for you to turn US dollars into a foreign currency or maybe even a precious metal. We'll see. Uh but as things get bad, the government is going to take more, you know, uh draconian actions to try to, you know, keep everything from collapsing or slow down the rate. That that's why you want to act now. you know, don't wait till everybody is panicking to get rid of the dollar and then the government makes it harder and more expensive to do it. You know, beat the herd. You know, you know, put your financial house in order now so when everybody else is panicking, you could just sit back because you're already properly positioned. >> It's a some people will write me and say, "Hey, it's an extreme forecast for the US, right? Critics would say open capital markets are the foundation of the dollar system. What would force Washington to cross that line? >> Well, I mean, a crisis. >> I mean, they're not going to do this until they have to. And it's not that they have to. It's just that from their perspective, >> it's better than the alternative. Uh but you know, when you get a run on the dollar and and and people are just trying to get rid of their dollars as soon as they get their hands on them, uh what is the government going to do? If money is fleeing the country, you know, how are they going to stop that? You know, uh and capital controls are the easier way to do it. I mean, the harder way to do that is say, "Okay, we need to slash government spending. We need to let interest rates go way up. We need to let stocks crash and real estate crash, and we need to let banks fail. Uh but you know they're they're not going to want to do that and so they're going to think all this other stuff is not as bad as that even though at the end of the day it's going to end up being worse. Right? Everything that the government does to postpone the pain just makes it worse. Even if it happens later it it it happens it happens bigger. >> I was going to ask you I mean you know September well 2008 there was a date right? I mean, September 15th, layman, the money markets froze. Everyone kind of knows it. I in the sovereign debt crisis you're describing. I'm curious what the equivalent moment is. I mean, what's that specific event that people will look back on and say that's when it started? >> Well, I mean, I I think it already started, you know, with the big accumulation of gold. As I said, that's why gold is at these levels. Um, also it started when, you know, the Fed started the rate cutting campaign back in 2024 and the long yield went up. It it didn't go down. >> Mhm. >> And and so bond yields are now at a 19-year high uh despite the Fed's efforts to suppress them. So I think, you know, we've already seen a breakdown in the bond market, a breakout in the gold market. The dollar topped out. um it hasn't, you know, collapsed yet, but you know, it did have a pretty weak year in 2025. Got a little bit of a bounce from the war, but not much of a bounce actually. Uh and so I think that at some point if you see a big drop in the dollar and the bond market at the same time where uh forex traders are not fooled by nominal rate hikes, they sell the dollar anyway. and gold going up, right? Those three things happening together, the dollar and bonds down, meaning and yields rising, and the price of gold rising, that's probably a pretty good sign that we're we're we're we're in the the end game here. >> But, you know, what will cause it to just, you know, drop like a rock? What will the catalyst be for that revelation? >> I don't know. You know, it's like, uh, you know, the the emperor's new clothes. >> Yeah. Uh, it's pretty obvious that the emperor is naked, but nobody reacts to it until one little kid doesn't see the the clothes. I think it's pretty obvious the US government is broke and can never repay its debt, but nobody seems to care. But at some point, something is going to happen. That's the equivalent of of of that kid in the Emperor's New Clothes. And then all of a sudden, it's going to matter, right? They say it never matters until it matters. But then when it does matter, you know, it's too late. And and so it's going to happen. We're going to have that, you know, that wy co that's another analogy, the wy coyote moment where we're we're we already went off the cliff, but we haven't looked down yet and we don't realize that we're standing on nothing. Uh but once we realize that there's nothing beneath our feet, we're we're in for a big fall. >> Yeah. The the musical chairs analogy, too. I like that. So Peter, I mean we're Kiko news. So a lot of investors watching this already own gold, they own silver, they own some miners, you know, they they've heard the warnings, they believe it. Uh what they need now is kind of positioning. So So build the portfolio for me. New money coming in today. Give me kind of percentages. Physical gold, silver, miners, foreign equities. Do you do cash, tokenized gold? I mean, how do you really actually allocate it, you know? >> Yeah. Well, I still think that, you know, you want to have a lot of money in productive assets, uh, income generating assets. I like a lot of the foreign stocks and the emerging markets. I think there's a lot of good investment value there, uh, that is going to do well regardless of what happens to gold, silver, you know, I think that you want to have these stocks in your portfolio. I think the yields are good by and large. If you're going to get five, six, seven, 8% dividend yields on these operating companies and still have the liquidity of a publicly traded stock and the professional management, I think there's a lot of value there, you know, and so we have strategies, uh, separately managed accounts, mutual funds that are, you know, focused there. Uh, but I still think that, you know, the mining stocks represent probably one of the best asymmetric uh, bets you can make as far as how much these stocks can go up if I'm right. I mean, if I'm wrong, I mean, worst case, they all go bankrupt, which I think would be an extreme uh, and very unlikely scenario. So, I don't think you're going to lose all of your money if you invest in quality gold companies. You could lose a lot of it if I'm completely wrong. uh but you won't lose at all. On the other hand, could you make five, 10, 20 times your money? I think so. I think that kind of upside is there. Uh and so I think that the asymmetric outcome there means you want to have more money than you might normally have. You know, whether you want to put, you know, 20% of your portfolio, 15%. I've I had more than half my portfolio in mining stocks and, you know, and uh you know, before the big move up. Uh so uh I've been adding to my non-mining stocks to kind of bring it down, but it's well, you know, well above that based on the move that we've had. Um but I've always said people should have at least 5 to 10% in physical gold and silver. Uh and that, you know, that could include uh ETFs, tokenized gold, uh and coins, you know, bars that you have, but that's kind of like a minimum level. And I look at gold and silver not as an alternative really to stocks. You know, that's the mistake that Warren Buffett always made when people would say, you know, what do you think about gold? And he would always compare it to stocks. And he would say, well, gold just sits there. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't generate any income. And I agree. You You don't want to look at gold >> the way you look at stocks. I look at gold the way I look at cash. It's if I don't want to buy stocks right now because I think they're too expensive or they may pull back and I want to just have some dry powder, where do I keep it? And that's, you know, what Warren Buffett didn't think about? Because I know if you put it to him that way, he would he would see the advantage of gold. Uh because if if you don't want to be in stocks and you want to have a lot of cash and Buffett has a lot of cash now at Bergkshire Hathaway, why isn't that cash in gold? >> Mhm. >> You know, because there you're not giving up the income of a productive investment. You're just giving up interest that you earn on cash. And right now the interest that you earn on cash is not enough to cover the purchasing power that you lose by staying in cash. So I think that gold is better than owning dollars or even euros or yen or pounds or whatever currency alternative is out there. Your liquidity should be mostly in gold. Uh and you can do that by owning the physical gold or you know the ETFs or the tokens. You know, I'm doing something with that too through T-old, which is my project at shift gold, t- gold.com, which will ultimately give you the ability to withdraw your gold in the form of a token. But in the meantime, what I want to do with T- Gold is allow people to use their gold, even without tokenizing it, as a medium of exchange. so that you could send and receive gold into your account and and use the gold the way you would use dollars or euros or your your debit card or whatever. So you can start transacting because as inflation really starts to accelerate and you start to see prices rising at a much faster level when you're talking it's not 2% a year, it's 2% a month, maybe 2% a week and at some point maybe 2% a day. Who knows? But when you start to see that kind of price increases, it makes it very difficult to deal in in in the currency. So you need to get out so you have something more stable. Especially if you're a businessman and you're selling goods that need to be replaced, you got to be very careful. If you sell them for a currency that's collapsing, uh you know, you could actually lose money on the sale because you won't be able to buy back what you sold. But if you accept payment in gold in real money, then you don't have that problem. And and so this is going to uh evolve over time a as inflation gets worse and worse. >> Yeah. You haven't heard I haven't actually heard you publicly talk too too much about T-old since since I had you on in February. Where are you with that right now? Some good movement. I mean, we're certainly seeing what Tether is doing. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, so far T- Gold, you could just buy gold and silver in any amount, right? somebody could buy 50 bucks worth, 100 bucks worth and have it in their account and you could trade it, but we don't have the approvals yet for it to be used, you know, as as money, you know, like a PayPal or something like that, right? >> And I haven't decided. I there's a good chance I'm going to launch my own token. I'm still talking with different people, but I want to be able to let people, even if it's not my own token, they could still withdraw it. Tether, Tether Gold is a is a viable token you could withdraw uh instead of physical gold and you could just load it up on a wallet. But all this stuff is going to come. But that that what's important to me now is not helping people spend their gold because you don't want to spend your gold yet. You want to spend your dollars, you want to spend your euros, you want to save your gold until the the merchants demand that to be paid in gold, right? Because Gresham's law is you want is the the the the bad money chases out the good money. So you get rid of your bad money and you hoard your good money. Uh and and and that's gold. So right now people are willing to take paper. So pay in paper as long as people are dumb enough to take paper than paying it. Um but that you know at some point they're not going to want it anymore. And and that's where too the tokenized gold is is going to do what Bitcoin can't do and what stable coins can't do. I mean stable coins that are backed by US dollars, they can function as a medium of exchange, but they don't function as a store of value. Bitcoin doesn't function as anything. It's it's not a good medium of exchange and it doesn't have any value to store. Gold does both. Gold in its tokenized form is a great medium of exchange and a store of value at the same time. It's the perfect money for the internet age. It does everything that Bitcoin promises but can't. So that that's the direction we're headed. >> And as you mentioned, sitting here around 4,500 quite stable. Haven't seen those lows. Uh all right, Peter Schiff, CEO and chief global strategist of Europacific Asset Management. Europac.com. Also, Europacific Gold Fund, ticker EPG. >> T- Gold has its own website, too. T- gold.com. You just go right there. >> Yeah. Interesting. We're going to get you on uh see how this all steps back. The next time we'll get you on. We need to break down that tokenized industry. It's it's a fascinating one. A lot of people nervous as you can imagine and and others curious to know more. So, thanks Peter. Appreciate your unvarnished take. Thanks for coming back. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> Now, we want to hear from you. bond market at post207 levels. A new Fed chair facing a possible rate hike in a stflationary environment. Gold holding above 4,500 and what should be the most risk morning of the month? Now, does the disconnect between the what bonds are saying and what Wall Street is pricing change how your position for the rest of 2026? Drop it in the comments. We read them all. And if you want to stay ahead of macro forces driving gold, silver, the global economy, not just headlines, but the mechanics, make sure you're subscribed right here. I'm Jeremy Saffford. Thanks for watching KCO News. Heat. Heat.
Why Silver's $125 Peak Was Just The First Stop | Peter Schiff
Summary
Wall Street is pushing toward record highs, but the bond market is flashing a severe warning. Peter Schiff, CEO and Chief Global …Transcript
Welcome back. I'm Jeremy Sappern. Okay, Wall Street is pushing towards new record highs this morning, but the bond market is not buying it. Equities are trading on US peace hopes, but the 30-year Treasury is above 5% a near post 2007 high. And the 10-year is holding near 450. Meanwhile, gold around 4,500, silver 76. And we just got consumer confidence. Twothirds of Americans say they're cutting back on spending because of rising prices. University of Michigan sentiment hit record lows last week. And we have a new Fed chair. Kevin Walsh was sworn in on Friday. And traders are now starting to cut a rate hike, not a cut. Uh we've got a lot to get into today here joining us to cut through the rumors and the noise. The macro reality man himself. We got Peter Schiff on the show, CEO, chief global strategist of Europacific Asset Management. Good to see you. Uh Jeremy, thanks for having me on. Nice to see you. >> Hey, we got uh I mean it's an interesting market, right? We we had a holiday Monday this morning. Stocks are rallying uh on Iran peace hopes. Bonds are not going along for the ride. Uh 30-year like I said above 5 10 year near 450. Gold still holding around, you know, 4500 even with this pullback. I mean, what is the bond market seeing right now that equity traders are completely walking past? Well, I think the bond traders are kind of walking past it, too. Maybe not as blindly as the equity traders because I think if the bond investors really perceived the the gravity of the threat, yields would already be a lot higher than they are right now. I still think that the US government is getting off cheap, being able to borrow money for 30 years at just 5%. You you know you could go look back at what the US government was paying to borrow money in the 80s and the 90s let alone the 70s and it was paying a lot more than that but we were a lot uh better credit risk back then because we had a lot less debt and therefore you know we didn't have to print nearly as much money to service it. So, I I I think at least the bond market is starting to pay attention, but I think yields are going a lot higher on the longer end in particular. And eventually the stock market is going to notice that and you're going to start to see some weakness there. And then I think gold is going to break out of this consolidation because investors have been focusing on the nominal increase in yields >> as if somehow that is a negative for gold. It's not. Nominal interest rates are irrelevant. It's real interest rates that count and I think real interest rates are falling uh even on the long end because inflation is accelerating a lot more than yields are rising. Meanwhile, the Fed has stayed pat. The Fed hasn't hiked rates and that amounts to a rate cut and all of this is bullish for gold. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay. So, Scott Pian, he's been described as the market's volatility manager, the best put as we know. I mean the idea is he shifts issuance to the front end, uses buybacks, calms the long bond and on May 12th he called the yield spike um transient. I mean that word has a history at the Federal Reserve. I mean is this sound debt management or is it a warning sign that that you know the long end no longer wants the paper at any rate that it can actually live with? Yeah. >> Yeah. You think they would have retired transient from the vocabulary over there at the Fed and come up with a a different adjective to describe to describe it, but uh the only thing that's transient is uh the rate at which rates are going up because I think they're going to go up a lot faster in the future. So, I think uh uh the new se the new Fed Fed chair uh has uh a big problem on his hands. Um as does the Secretary of the Treasury, I think. uh uh you know, we're going to be looking at a sovereign debt crisis and a US dollar crisis I think before the end of the Trump term. >> It's coming up. It's coming up. Um okay, obviously bond market rejecting that peace rally best since kind of running out of easy options. And now you just mentioned it, this new Fed chair at what may be the worst possible moment to start the job. I mean just this morning, former Fed, New York Fed President Bill Dudley was on Bloomberg. He said, and and I'm quoting here, "We've been above the Fed's inflation target for more than 5 years. There's a risk that inflation expectations do finally become unanchored." He also said, "The case for cutting rates now is actually very, very weak." Okay, Kevin Walsh sworn in Friday, traders pricing an 8 12% chance of a July rate hike. One month ago, that number was under 1%. I mean, is Dudley finally catching up to where you've been? And and does a hawkish war actually help the Fed's credibility, or is it already too late? Well, first of all, I think hawks are extinct at the Fed. So, it's a question of the degrees of dovishness. Uh there are no more hawks. And you know, by the way, uh inflation expectations broke off their mooring uh a long time ago. I mean, when the Fed talks about we want to make sure that expectations remain anchored at 2%, I mean, those horses have left the bart. I mean, if you look at the most recent uh numbers from the consumer, they're expecting inflation over the next 10 years to average about 4%. So, those expectations are already double what uh the Fed's so-called target is. And I think even the consumer is is too optimistic. I think inflation is going to be higher uh than that. And and I think in the bond market, expectations are drifting away. Uh and they're going to drift a lot further away because 2% at this point is a pipe dream. They're not going to come close uh to two. They won't even come close to three. And again, these numbers aren't even accurate. These are the government's inflation numbers that by design uh maybe get half of the actual increase that consumers are experiencing when it comes to the cost of living. Uh so you know so so inflation is a big big problem. It's going to get much worse. Uh you know Donald Trump likes to pretend that the Biden inflation is gone. Uh and first of all, it started under his term. Uh the big increase in consumer prices started at the end of the Trump term and then continued into the Biden term. Uh we would have seen the same type of inflation in 2021, 2022, even if Trump were reelected. So, you know, not that I'm giving Biden, you know, a pass on this. I'm not. uh but you have to attribute everything to the policies that began uh under COVID uh which happened on Trump's watch uh not not not Biden's but I think the Trump second term in its entirety is going to uh deliver a bigger increase in the cost of living than the Biden term. So it's going to be a bigger problem inflation in Trump's second term than it was under Biden. uh especially in the last two years. I think that's where it's going to be the worst. Under Biden, inflation was the worst during his first two years, but I think in Trump, it's going to be the back end of his term, the last two years where inflation is going to be uh the worst probably into the double digits. >> Wow. Uh and people are feeling that pinch now as we know. I mean, the the headlines are are crazy. I mean, going back to the Fit, if if the real hawks are gone, is the credibility I mean, what what what the hell does it mean now? Is credibility about fighting inflation or just preventing the Treasury market from breaking at this point? >> Well, you know, I I I think the credibility is is is going. That's why gold went up to 5,500. I mean, that big rally from 2000 to over 5,000 was driven almost entirely by central banks. And the fact that central banks were buying is an indication of a loss of confidence in the US dollar, in the Fed, in the Treasury, uh retail investors, you know, the people, you know, that might, you know, go to Kicko or shift gold, you know, they weren't there. They weren't buying gold. Uh they were selling. Yeah. You know, in fact, if you look at the ETF investors, there were net outflows in 2024 and 2025. the whole time the price of gold was going up uh investors were were selling uh and and so that you know that the confidence was lost in the central banks that the investing public uh I think was clueless but I think that what's going to be the big story going forward is not just that central banks are going to continue to buy and accelerate their buying but the retail public and institutions I think are going to become significant buyers in in their own right uh as they really start to appreciate the risk to the US dollar and also uh a lot of the crypto investors uh basically throw in the towel on that and realize they kind of got suckered into a into a pyramid Ponzi type scheme and that Bitcoin isn't actually digital gold and so you're going to see a rush uh to get into the real thing. You know, we got to talk digital gold for a moment, but let me just try to kind of break this down for viewers who are newer to this conversation because I mean, we just got our consumer confidence. Twothirds of consumers cutting back on spending. University of Michigan is at a record low. And yet, the trap, as I understand it, I mean, the Fed can't rate raise rates aggressively because that crushes the cost of servicing. 38 trillion in debt. And uh the 30-year mortgage is already at 665. But it can't cut either without pouring fuel on the inflation and developing the dollar, you know, further. So, I mean, is that the trap? And what is the only exit? >> Well, there is no exit. I mean, the Fed uh uh and Congress, I mean, it's not just the Fed, but but they put us in this situation where there is no way out. Uh because you have two two doors. One is hyperinflation and the other is a depression, a financial crisis uh you know a complete collapse of the the economy. Not that hyperinflation avoids that, it just uh maybe delays it a bit and and it takes on an even worse form. Uh but there is no graceful exit. There is no soft landing. Uh you know that's why nobody wants to deal with the problem. you know, uh, a former Secretary of the Treasury, um, Hank Pollson, you know, recently came out and said that the US needs to develop a a break the glass kind of emergency plan to deal with uh, the situation when uh, foreigners no longer want to loan us money and they don't want to buy our bonds. Uh, so we have to figure out an emergency plan. He didn't even, you know, talk about, hey, let's try to avert this crisis. Let's get ahead of it. Let's make some cuts to government spending so that we don't have to face this crisis. He just resigned himself to the fact that the crisis was inevitable, that the government would never do anything uh to prevent it or preempt it, and it was just, you know, let's brace for the impact of this crash. Uh but the problem is I don't think there's a plan that is going to work there. You we are going to have to pay the piper and it's a big bill because you know we haven't paid it in decades. We keep kicking the can down the road and you know you said 38 trillion. The national debt is now 39.3 or something like that. I mean we're going to hit 40 trillion in a matter of months. I think we're going to hit 50 trillion before Trump finishes his term. and and that's going to be because the Fed is going to be back in QE mode, uh, monetizing a lot of this debt that the rest of the world no longer wants to finance. And that's where a lot of the inflation is going to come from. You know, right now, uh, they've got an excuse. They can blame it on the war with Iran and and obviously that's not helping, but I think the Iran war was more of a catalyst for the breakout in oil and the breakout in bond yields that would have happened anyway. And if it wasn't Iran, it would have been something else. And a lot of people have uh a a a foolish uh view that as soon as the war is over, everything's going to be great. Oil is going to come crashing down. Bond yields are going to come way down. I don't think that's going to happen. I mean, you may have a little bit of a blip, but then I think it's off to the races. I think oil's going a lot higher and so are bond yields. Even if the war ends, uh, which, you know, who knows if that's actually going to happen anytime soon, but even if it does, uh, I think that these trends are going to remain in place. >> You you posted something interesting I was taking a look at this morning about the defeat of Thomas Massie. You said the Republican party exists in name only. Now, you know, we could put the politics kind of to the side. I mean, mechanically tariffs or inflationary spending is not being cut and the Treasury still has to fund that massive growing deficit you were just talking about. I mean, walk me through what that math does to the timeline you're working with. >> Yeah. You know, I think getting uh Massie kicked out of Congress sends a the wrong message to our creditors because he was the lone voice for fiscal responsibility in the Republican party. I mean, he was the sole vote against the big beautiful bill which was a disaster as far as increasing government spending. You know, Republicans got elected criticizing the excess spending of Biden. Yet Massie was the only one that wanted to reduce that spending. All of the other Republicans voted to keep all of the Biden era spending that they objected to and then add some more for good measure, making it worse. And and so I think one of the main reasons they were able to get rid of Massie was because he voted against that bill. Oh, he's not a Republican. He he voted against this tax cut. It wasn't a tax cut. The big beautiful bill was a tax increase because it made government bigger and more expensive. And you measure the cost of government by what it spends, not by what it collects in official taxes, because the difference is made up through inflation. And Thomas Massie didn't want to hit his constituents or the country with the massive inflation tax necessary to pay for the big, beautiful bill. But the message that it sends to our creditors is fiscal responsibility is dead and buried. Certainly the Democrats are not going to be fiscally responsible. They love big government. The more government spends, the better. The party of fiscal restraint was supposed to be the Republicans, but that's gone out the window. And so everybody can tell that we're never going to uh, you know, get our house in order. We're not going to, you know, prevent this uh fiscal uh collapse. We're just going to keep on driving the train until we go over the edge of a cliff. And and so people want to bail out. Central banks don't want to own our currency. They don't want to own our bonds. And soon, nobody will want to own our currency or or our bonds, even Americans. and you know they'll be rushing to get rid of their dollars and getting into gold, getting into silver, getting into hard assets or even other fiat currencies uh to avoid that inflation tax. Now, let's go over to silver for a second because last time you were in this chair, I think it was end of February, silver was approaching $90. I mean, the CMA had just halted GloveX Metals right at the first notice day. You told me you kind of had no idea if it was a coincidence or something more deliberate, but I mean, silver, it's 76 this morning. So, let me ask you directly. I mean, did the did the silver squeeze fail? Did it get delayed? Did the paper market kind of suppress what is still a real physical market problem? Which one you think? >> Well, members, after that, silver went on to top $125 an ounce after that interview. >> Yeah. >> Um, now what's significant is not, oh, silver's fallen back to 76. What's significant is that we blew through 50 and you know that was really the overhead resistance dating back to the Hunt brothers in 2000 I mean 1980 and we couldn't even get to eight to we couldn't even get to 50 in 2011 when gold went above 2,000 um but then we blew through it you know like a hot knife through butter and we you know we went way up to 125 so that was a massive breakout out. It doesn't surprise me that we couldn't sustain that big a move in such a short period of time. But what should be impressive to anybody is that we never went back below 50. We never went anywhere near 50. We broke out and now we're consolidating really in the 70s and we've had, you know, we almost got back up to 90 a week or two ago. Uh so I think this is a beautiful uh breakout and consolidation in the silver market and this is going to resolve itself with another big up move. Uh and you know so that $125 peak that's not the peak for silver. That's just the first stop on a long road that I think is going to see much much higher prices for silver. >> Talk to me a little bit about the the retail demand. I mean you got into it briefly there. I remember that last interview we were also talking about that India SEBI rule kind of up to 35% of $385 billion equity fund pool now going into silver and gold instruments. I mean they moved to kind of domestic spot pricing as well on that one that's been only live for nearly two months. I mean are you seeing any capital show up in the physical market or is it still mostly going through paper? >> Well, I don't even think it's going through paper market either. I think uh there's just not a lot of demand. Now, things did pick up. I mean, if you look at my own experience with Shift Gold and our our sales there, uh 2024 and most of 2025 were pretty uh weak years for sales. I mean, the the the big year that we had was 2020. So, when COVID broke out, there was a big uptick in in retail demand uh for gold and silver. So, we saw that and then it kind of fizzled out and it finally started to come back earlier this year, late last year, early this year when we saw the big moves up. Uh, then we finally saw an uptick in retail demand, which also coincided with a short-term top. Uh, which, you know, is not atypical of the way markets typically trade. But I think that even though demand has come off a bit, uh, it's higher now than it was and I think it's going to continue. I think this correction is maybe scared a few people out of the market and I think the media has uh, you know, highlighted uh, the correction to try to convince people, oh, look at, you know, look, gold's down $1,000. You know, look where silver, it's not a safe haven. you know, silver and gold, they were supposed to go up when we had a war and instead they went down, which is true because they went up so much before the war. Uh, and uh, you know, it was pretty obvious something was going to happen with Iran uh, in the months leading up to it. So, I think gold and silver uh, kind of rallied off uh, of that and then when it, you know, when the rumors became a fact, there was uh, a tendency to sell, which is typical market behavior. But I I think I think you're going to see a a steady upturn in demand. As I said, private investors, both retail and institutional, I think uh the hedge funds, the pensions, the endowments, I think they're going to start moving into gold. And a lot of that money is going to come out of fixed income, not not so much out of the stock market, but out of the bond market. And even you saw it was about a year ago, I think it was Morgan Stanley that talked about tweaking the 6040 uh portfolio to make it 60 2020 where you cut your bond portfolio in half and you put the other half in the gold. I I think investors are going to be looking for a safe haven uh for an inflation hedge. And and I and I do think we're we're going to get a big decline in the stock market at some point. you know, we're at nosebleleed valuations uh in a in a big AI uh tech bubble uh that's at some point going to burst. And when the money is is leaving uh where's it going to go? I think it's much more likely to go to gold uh than US dollars and certainly US treasuries. You brought up an interesting one there and it's important because most people I mean they try to not buy at the top but a lot of people often especially retail often arrives a little late to the party. How do ordinary investors kind of avoid becoming that exit liquidity in in you know a silver spike or maybe a gold spike? >> Well, you know if you bought, you know, $120 silver or $5, $600 gold, I don't think you were necessarily late to the party because the party's not over. But sure, yeah, you should have bought. you didn't have to wait for those spikes to buy. And generally when we have spikes like that, I tell people, look, you know, you could buy, but you know, don't buy everything. I mean, keep, you know, money aside so that if it comes down, you could buy more. And, you know, I had been advising my clients for over 20 years to steadily buy gold and silver when they have extra money. And and so, yes, you might be buying the highs sometimes, uh, but you're also buying the pullbacks. you know, I mean, I started uh getting people into gold under 300 and silver under $5. Uh so when you look back at those buys, uh you know, they were they were pretty good. And even if you bought the highs along the way, a lot of those highs look pretty low, uh looking back from where we are right now. But you know, the usually what motivates people to to to move is something happening with the price. So if the price really starts to shoot up, people get afraid that maybe they're missing out on a bigger move and and they move quickly and and that's, you know, just how the markets work. And sometimes when the market is going down, that's when people should be buying more, but then people get too afraid that it's going to keep falling and so they they don't buy or worse, they sell, right? That's the worst thing you could do is panic and get out. Uh because these are long-term trends uh that are going to continue, I think, for a long long time. you know, gold, uh, when, you know, the country started, you know, we're about to have our 250 year anniversary, although that's of the Declaration of Independence, but the first coinage act of 1792, >> uh, the goal was $20 an ounce, you know, and it stayed $20 an ounce up until 1934. Uh, and then it became $35 and it stayed there until about 1970. But ever since then, the dollar has been collapsing. And now you need $4,500 to buy an ounce of gold. Uh the dollar's already lost 99% of its purchasing power. It's probably going to lose another 99% from here. Uh and so who know, you know, to multiply gold by 100. That's where ultimately it's going to go. Uh the question is how much longer is it going to take to get there? I think the dollar could lose the next 99% of its value a lot faster than it lost the first 99%. >> Yeah. Uh so, you know, you you got you got to just keep on buying. But sure, yeah, you know, try to buy the pullbacks more than the than than than the rallies. Uh but if it takes a rally to get some people off the fence, then that's fine. I have I'm confident that even if you bought the highs, uh you're still going to be glad that you did uh in a few years, but in the meantime, buy more, right? That's what pullbacks are for. They give you an opportunity uh to get a better deal and and average your cost down. Hey, speaking of pullbacks, Michael Bur kind of big short style warning on Nvidia this week. Conditions for an aggressive fall. The the strongest in that stock's history. Consumer concentration at 64% of accounts receivable. Uh AI tokeniz token maxing is what he's quoted kind of overconumption. He says it can't last. So here's the question for you to answer kind of carefully. I mean, you've said that that when that speculative bubble unwinds, most of the money doesn't rotate to gold. It kind of goes into money heaven or it evaporates. If if the AI trade unwinds violently, does that capital come into hard assets and into miners or does it go to money heaven, too? >> Well, most of it goes to money heaven because, you know, the only money that comes out is matched by the money that comes in. M >> uh and so you have to have buyers in order for the sellers to have anything to invest. Uh and so yeah, I mean a lot of the money just disappears. That's the problem. And that's why, you know, it's dangerous to play in these uh manias or pyramid type Ponzi investments because you never know when the music's going to stop. And if you get out in time, uh you can walk away with a lot of winnings. Uh but if you overstay the party uh your paper profits uh turn into huge actual losses as you know you can't actually get the money out. Some people can get their money out but only if it's a few. If a lot of people try to get their money out then it's impossible because when a lot of people want to get out it's because nobody else wants to get in and then you just have a a huge collapse in the price. But obviously some money is going to come out. The question is where's that money going to go? Uh and you know I think some of it is going to go into precious metals. Uh you know uh but a lot of the people that got into the AI bubble might not necessarily be the precious metals type. A lot a lot of us gold bugs aren't even involved in this. Um but uh they may be looking for the next hot thing if they haven't learned their lesson. Uh, but you know, eventually I'm sure that a lot of the people that got in to the AI bubble will eventually be in gold and silver mining stocks because there's no doubt in my mind that eventually that will be a bubble, too. Uh, but I don't we're nowhere near there. uh but but it will be at some point the their investors will get carried away based on uh the enormous uh profits that that happened in the past and that enthusiasm will end up creating a bubble probably in the most riskiest uh stocks and you know at some point I expect just like companies you know put.com on their name during the.com bubble and now you know people became crypto companies or then became AI companies At some point, uh, a lot of companies are going to become gold mining companies, gold mining exploration companies, and they'll put they'll put the word gold in their name, and it'll it'll it'll it'll create, uh, you know, uh, investors wanting to buy the stock. So, that that's going to happen eventually. Hopefully, I'm smart enough to sell everything I've got at that point. >> You'll be out first. Uh okay, let's pivot over to to the miners just just firstly because you I remember your specific call on juniors was that you know the big producers need reserves and they haven't been investing in exploration and in a few buyouts would rerate the whole sector. I mean I I remember we got this equinox or merger but is M&A starting to move here? Where are you thinking we're at in this mining cyclical? >> It's starting. You know we've had I think two or three of the stocks in our portfolio. You know, we manage separately managed accounts at Europe Pacific Asset Management and I also have the Europacific Gold Fund, EPGIX is the the no-load symbol. And we've had a few of our names bought out in recent months. And I think that's going to continue because I don't know what these gold mining companies are going to do with all this cash uh that they're earning. They're not going to just pay it all out in dividends. They're not going to use it all to buy back their own stock. I think they need to uh invest in developing more, you know, reserves to mine in the future. You know, they're mining the reserves now. Uh but what happens when they run out? Uh so they need to be looking to replace what they mine and for my money just going in and buying these junior companies that have, you know, a lot in the pipeline. They just don't have the resources themselves to develop what they already have. I think that's a much smarter, less risky play for the bigger companies than just investing in pure exploration and development, uh, which is a lot riskier because you have no idea what you're ultimately going to find, if you're going to find anything. >> So, I think you're going to see a lot of these, uh, buyouts, which is why, you know, my our fund is about a third in these juniors. And you know that's been a drag on performance in the last couple of years. But I think ultimately that's going to be what causes us to have substantial outperformance because I think all these stocks are going to get bought out for big premiums. Even if the price of gold doesn't go up, that's the beauty of this. If gold just stays around $4 to $5,000 an ounce, that is, you know, a perfect level for these mining companies to make a fortune, uh, assuming their costs don't explode. if their costs stay about where they are and just go up, you know, normally, they're going to make a lot of money and I think they're still going to use that money uh to buy the juniors. So, the junior mining stocks could go up dramatically even if the price of gold doesn't go anywhere. Uh so, I I I think there's there's a lot more upside there than there is a downside. >> Are are you kind of witnessing smarter management, too? I mean, you can remember the last cycle people were overpaying for acquisitions, what have you. I mean, we have Adrian Dayon, somebody that you work with. If if miners are obviously forced to to use cash, doesn't that kind of limit how aggressive they can be? At what point do shareholders punish them for overpaying? We're not there yet. >> Yeah. Well, look, I don't think you can really overpay right now because everything is still so cheap. >> Uh there's still so much pessimism that's built into the market. You know, analysts have really not increased their their forecast for the long-term earnings of these companies because they still haven't accepted the fact that gold's not going back down to a,000 or 1,500. I mean, in fact, the whole way up, uh, analysts expected the gold price to go down. They never understood. If you go back when gold first hit 2000, the analysts were were telling people to sell pneumontic because they thought there was no more upside left in the price of gold. uh yet you know we've more than doubled uh that level uh without a big rush into the mining sector. You haven't seen you know that hasn't happened. Yeah there was a little bit you know earlier this year and you know when you started to see in the mainstream media they started discussing gold and gold mining stocks. Uh you know that made me a bit nervous that we might have a correction although actually hopeful because I got more people I want to get on board. Um but yeah, I mean we finally got uh some mainstream attention right at the peak. Uh but I think this correction uh you know shook all that out. Who knows when the mainstream financial media is going to be focusing on gold stocks again. They may have to double or triple from here before before that happens. >> Yeah. Well, that was my question because I mean, you know, a lot of viewers I put it out on X. A lot of viewers are kind of asking, you know, they say, "Okay, I'm the person who kind of missed that 2025 run." I know you're saying we still have room to go, but they're watching gold at, you know, 4,500. Miners are still at multi-year highs and they feel like they're late. I mean, is the entry point today actually better or worse than it was 6 months ago? And and what's your kind of honest answer to somebody watching right now with say 50 grand? I mean, where do they throw this? Well, look, if you've never bought any of the miners, I think this pullback that we've had from the highs is a a great entry point. Uh would it have been enter better to get in uh a couple of years ago? Sure. But, you know, a lot of these stocks are still trading for lower than they were uh back at the 2011 peak. And at that peak, gold topped out at 2,000. So, you're more than double that. Especially the juniors. I mean, these stocks are still a fraction of what they were trading at back then. Um, and even some of the mid-tier and bigger companies are cheaper today than they were back then. So, you know, you're not paying up if you're buying mining stocks right now, you're still getting a good deal. In fact, in many respects, they're cheaper now than they were when they were half the price. Because when they were half the price, gold was a lot less than half the current price. especially silver, you know, and silver, you know, silver was just languishing in the 20 $30 range for years. Now it's $70 to $80. Uh that that's a big move. Sure, the silver stocks have gone up, but not as much as they should have given how much the price of silver has gone up >> and room to go. Um okay, miners, talk to M&A where where the money's going. Now, I want to kind of make the endgame concrete because this is where I think viewers most need to understand right now. Well, I mean, you know, you you've made the case that price controls come before capital controls. The governments don't stop causing inflation. They're trying to cover up the symptoms as we mentioned. I mean, Trump is already floated capping credit card rates at 10%. We have oil near 95, the biggest inflation surge since 2023. And this Fed chair who may be hiking into a weakening economy. I mean, walk me through the sequence. Price controls first, then what? How does this actually unfold? Well, you know, the one of the main reasons that the government has worked so hard to redefine inflation from an expansion of the money supply and and credit to rising prices is so the government can blame inflation on whoever's raising the prices as opposed to prices going up as a result of a as a consequence of the inflation that preceded the price increases. And and so once the government succeeds in confusing the public as to what inflation is, if they convince the public that inflation is rising prices, then all they have to do is stop prices from rising and they'll stop inflation. And the way they do that is with price controls. Uh but the problem is price controls do not work. Just like, you know, if I put a band-aid on a skin cancer, just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there and it's not spreading and doing more damage. So when you control prices, what you create are shortages uh and and that leads to black markets where the prices are even higher than they were in the legal market before you uh put in the price controls. And also companies will try to find a way around the price controls uh with brand new products that are not subject to those price controls uh so that they can charge a much higher price. Uh so it never works. It didn't work when Richard Nixon tried it. Uh, and it's not going to work if Trump tries it. Um, and yes, you know, they're obviously going to go in that direction because that's the only thing that they can do. They're not going to admit the truth. Uh, so they're going to perpetuate the lie by focusing on the consequences of the inflation that they create, not the actual cause. And not only do I think they'll have price controls, they may have exchange controls. They may make it harder for you to turn US dollars into a foreign currency or maybe even a precious metal. We'll see. Uh but as things get bad, the government is going to take more, you know, uh draconian actions to try to, you know, keep everything from collapsing or slow down the rate. That that's why you want to act now. you know, don't wait till everybody is panicking to get rid of the dollar and then the government makes it harder and more expensive to do it. You know, beat the herd. You know, you know, put your financial house in order now so when everybody else is panicking, you could just sit back because you're already properly positioned. >> It's a some people will write me and say, "Hey, it's an extreme forecast for the US, right? Critics would say open capital markets are the foundation of the dollar system. What would force Washington to cross that line? >> Well, I mean, a crisis. >> I mean, they're not going to do this until they have to. And it's not that they have to. It's just that from their perspective, >> it's better than the alternative. Uh but you know, when you get a run on the dollar and and and people are just trying to get rid of their dollars as soon as they get their hands on them, uh what is the government going to do? If money is fleeing the country, you know, how are they going to stop that? You know, uh and capital controls are the easier way to do it. I mean, the harder way to do that is say, "Okay, we need to slash government spending. We need to let interest rates go way up. We need to let stocks crash and real estate crash, and we need to let banks fail. Uh but you know they're they're not going to want to do that and so they're going to think all this other stuff is not as bad as that even though at the end of the day it's going to end up being worse. Right? Everything that the government does to postpone the pain just makes it worse. Even if it happens later it it it happens it happens bigger. >> I was going to ask you I mean you know September well 2008 there was a date right? I mean, September 15th, layman, the money markets froze. Everyone kind of knows it. I in the sovereign debt crisis you're describing. I'm curious what the equivalent moment is. I mean, what's that specific event that people will look back on and say that's when it started? >> Well, I mean, I I think it already started, you know, with the big accumulation of gold. As I said, that's why gold is at these levels. Um, also it started when, you know, the Fed started the rate cutting campaign back in 2024 and the long yield went up. It it didn't go down. >> Mhm. >> And and so bond yields are now at a 19-year high uh despite the Fed's efforts to suppress them. So I think, you know, we've already seen a breakdown in the bond market, a breakout in the gold market. The dollar topped out. um it hasn't, you know, collapsed yet, but you know, it did have a pretty weak year in 2025. Got a little bit of a bounce from the war, but not much of a bounce actually. Uh and so I think that at some point if you see a big drop in the dollar and the bond market at the same time where uh forex traders are not fooled by nominal rate hikes, they sell the dollar anyway. and gold going up, right? Those three things happening together, the dollar and bonds down, meaning and yields rising, and the price of gold rising, that's probably a pretty good sign that we're we're we're we're in the the end game here. >> But, you know, what will cause it to just, you know, drop like a rock? What will the catalyst be for that revelation? >> I don't know. You know, it's like, uh, you know, the the emperor's new clothes. >> Yeah. Uh, it's pretty obvious that the emperor is naked, but nobody reacts to it until one little kid doesn't see the the clothes. I think it's pretty obvious the US government is broke and can never repay its debt, but nobody seems to care. But at some point, something is going to happen. That's the equivalent of of of that kid in the Emperor's New Clothes. And then all of a sudden, it's going to matter, right? They say it never matters until it matters. But then when it does matter, you know, it's too late. And and so it's going to happen. We're going to have that, you know, that wy co that's another analogy, the wy coyote moment where we're we're we already went off the cliff, but we haven't looked down yet and we don't realize that we're standing on nothing. Uh but once we realize that there's nothing beneath our feet, we're we're in for a big fall. >> Yeah. The the musical chairs analogy, too. I like that. So Peter, I mean we're Kiko news. So a lot of investors watching this already own gold, they own silver, they own some miners, you know, they they've heard the warnings, they believe it. Uh what they need now is kind of positioning. So So build the portfolio for me. New money coming in today. Give me kind of percentages. Physical gold, silver, miners, foreign equities. Do you do cash, tokenized gold? I mean, how do you really actually allocate it, you know? >> Yeah. Well, I still think that, you know, you want to have a lot of money in productive assets, uh, income generating assets. I like a lot of the foreign stocks and the emerging markets. I think there's a lot of good investment value there, uh, that is going to do well regardless of what happens to gold, silver, you know, I think that you want to have these stocks in your portfolio. I think the yields are good by and large. If you're going to get five, six, seven, 8% dividend yields on these operating companies and still have the liquidity of a publicly traded stock and the professional management, I think there's a lot of value there, you know, and so we have strategies, uh, separately managed accounts, mutual funds that are, you know, focused there. Uh, but I still think that, you know, the mining stocks represent probably one of the best asymmetric uh, bets you can make as far as how much these stocks can go up if I'm right. I mean, if I'm wrong, I mean, worst case, they all go bankrupt, which I think would be an extreme uh, and very unlikely scenario. So, I don't think you're going to lose all of your money if you invest in quality gold companies. You could lose a lot of it if I'm completely wrong. uh but you won't lose at all. On the other hand, could you make five, 10, 20 times your money? I think so. I think that kind of upside is there. Uh and so I think that the asymmetric outcome there means you want to have more money than you might normally have. You know, whether you want to put, you know, 20% of your portfolio, 15%. I've I had more than half my portfolio in mining stocks and, you know, and uh you know, before the big move up. Uh so uh I've been adding to my non-mining stocks to kind of bring it down, but it's well, you know, well above that based on the move that we've had. Um but I've always said people should have at least 5 to 10% in physical gold and silver. Uh and that, you know, that could include uh ETFs, tokenized gold, uh and coins, you know, bars that you have, but that's kind of like a minimum level. And I look at gold and silver not as an alternative really to stocks. You know, that's the mistake that Warren Buffett always made when people would say, you know, what do you think about gold? And he would always compare it to stocks. And he would say, well, gold just sits there. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't generate any income. And I agree. You You don't want to look at gold >> the way you look at stocks. I look at gold the way I look at cash. It's if I don't want to buy stocks right now because I think they're too expensive or they may pull back and I want to just have some dry powder, where do I keep it? And that's, you know, what Warren Buffett didn't think about? Because I know if you put it to him that way, he would he would see the advantage of gold. Uh because if if you don't want to be in stocks and you want to have a lot of cash and Buffett has a lot of cash now at Bergkshire Hathaway, why isn't that cash in gold? >> Mhm. >> You know, because there you're not giving up the income of a productive investment. You're just giving up interest that you earn on cash. And right now the interest that you earn on cash is not enough to cover the purchasing power that you lose by staying in cash. So I think that gold is better than owning dollars or even euros or yen or pounds or whatever currency alternative is out there. Your liquidity should be mostly in gold. Uh and you can do that by owning the physical gold or you know the ETFs or the tokens. You know, I'm doing something with that too through T-old, which is my project at shift gold, t- gold.com, which will ultimately give you the ability to withdraw your gold in the form of a token. But in the meantime, what I want to do with T- Gold is allow people to use their gold, even without tokenizing it, as a medium of exchange. so that you could send and receive gold into your account and and use the gold the way you would use dollars or euros or your your debit card or whatever. So you can start transacting because as inflation really starts to accelerate and you start to see prices rising at a much faster level when you're talking it's not 2% a year, it's 2% a month, maybe 2% a week and at some point maybe 2% a day. Who knows? But when you start to see that kind of price increases, it makes it very difficult to deal in in in the currency. So you need to get out so you have something more stable. Especially if you're a businessman and you're selling goods that need to be replaced, you got to be very careful. If you sell them for a currency that's collapsing, uh you know, you could actually lose money on the sale because you won't be able to buy back what you sold. But if you accept payment in gold in real money, then you don't have that problem. And and so this is going to uh evolve over time a as inflation gets worse and worse. >> Yeah. You haven't heard I haven't actually heard you publicly talk too too much about T-old since since I had you on in February. Where are you with that right now? Some good movement. I mean, we're certainly seeing what Tether is doing. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, so far T- Gold, you could just buy gold and silver in any amount, right? somebody could buy 50 bucks worth, 100 bucks worth and have it in their account and you could trade it, but we don't have the approvals yet for it to be used, you know, as as money, you know, like a PayPal or something like that, right? >> And I haven't decided. I there's a good chance I'm going to launch my own token. I'm still talking with different people, but I want to be able to let people, even if it's not my own token, they could still withdraw it. Tether, Tether Gold is a is a viable token you could withdraw uh instead of physical gold and you could just load it up on a wallet. But all this stuff is going to come. But that that what's important to me now is not helping people spend their gold because you don't want to spend your gold yet. You want to spend your dollars, you want to spend your euros, you want to save your gold until the the merchants demand that to be paid in gold, right? Because Gresham's law is you want is the the the the bad money chases out the good money. So you get rid of your bad money and you hoard your good money. Uh and and and that's gold. So right now people are willing to take paper. So pay in paper as long as people are dumb enough to take paper than paying it. Um but that you know at some point they're not going to want it anymore. And and that's where too the tokenized gold is is going to do what Bitcoin can't do and what stable coins can't do. I mean stable coins that are backed by US dollars, they can function as a medium of exchange, but they don't function as a store of value. Bitcoin doesn't function as anything. It's it's not a good medium of exchange and it doesn't have any value to store. Gold does both. Gold in its tokenized form is a great medium of exchange and a store of value at the same time. It's the perfect money for the internet age. It does everything that Bitcoin promises but can't. So that that's the direction we're headed. >> And as you mentioned, sitting here around 4,500 quite stable. Haven't seen those lows. Uh all right, Peter Schiff, CEO and chief global strategist of Europacific Asset Management. Europac.com. Also, Europacific Gold Fund, ticker EPG. >> T- Gold has its own website, too. T- gold.com. You just go right there. >> Yeah. Interesting. We're going to get you on uh see how this all steps back. The next time we'll get you on. We need to break down that tokenized industry. It's it's a fascinating one. A lot of people nervous as you can imagine and and others curious to know more. So, thanks Peter. Appreciate your unvarnished take. Thanks for coming back. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> Now, we want to hear from you. bond market at post207 levels. A new Fed chair facing a possible rate hike in a stflationary environment. Gold holding above 4,500 and what should be the most risk morning of the month? Now, does the disconnect between the what bonds are saying and what Wall Street is pricing change how your position for the rest of 2026? Drop it in the comments. We read them all. And if you want to stay ahead of macro forces driving gold, silver, the global economy, not just headlines, but the mechanics, make sure you're subscribed right here. I'm Jeremy Saffford. Thanks for watching KCO News. Heat. Heat.