$3,600 Gold Price Is 'Early Stages', What's Next For Markets? | Joe Ovsenek
Summary
Gold as a Common Currency: The podcast highlights gold's role as a common currency amidst global economic bifurcation, with central banks increasing gold reserves over US treasuries.
Gold Market Dynamics: The current gold market is in the early stages of a bull cycle, driven by sustained price increases and a shift in investor sentiment towards gold as a stable asset.
Investment Flow: Financing activity in the gold sector is improving, with capital now reaching junior miners and explorers, contrasting with last year's tepid investment environment.
Industry Discipline: Unlike previous cycles, gold producers are maintaining financial discipline by not lowering cut-off grades excessively, focusing on profitability, and cleaning up balance sheets.
Company Focus: Tutor Gold, led by CEO Joe Ovsenek, is advancing its Treaty Creek project in British Columbia, aiming to isolate high-grade gold deposits for a potential starter mine.
Strategic Growth: The company plans to transition from exploration to production by focusing on high-grade resources and potentially partnering for larger-scale operations.
Market Opportunities: The rise in gold prices and positive sentiment are improving access to capital for gold projects, with potential for further investment through flow-through shares.
Future Outlook: The podcast suggests continued growth in the gold sector, driven by geopolitical tensions, central bank policies, and increasing demand for gold as a hedge against economic instability.
Transcript
Gold is the only common currency. Now, >> Tether, the stable coin company, is here and they're adding gold to the reserves, which is, you know, surprising to a lot of people. >> This time around, people are not dropping their cuto off grade as much. So, they are making money and so the industry, they're paying off their debts. Uh, dividends are getting paid. Um, they're banking cash and and they're really cleaning up balance sheets. [Applause] [Music] We're here with Joe Ozeneck. He's the CEO of Tutor Gold. Very interesting deposit in British Columbia. I'm happy to say that. That's where I'm from. So, very excited to be speaking with you about your project and also what's coming up for the entire gold mining sector. Like you were telling me offline, Joe, this is a turning point for the entire sector. Sentiment has never been this good, at least for a long, long time. So, I'm happy to have you on the show and thank you for being a part of the program. Thank you for supporting us. Well, pleased to be here and enjoy the opportunity. >> Joe, what is different this year versus last year when it comes to sentiment, financing, M&A activity, drilling activity? Gold's at new all-time highs. It was actually at a then all-time high last year, but you said it's night and day. >> Yeah. Well, I think the difference is we had an all-time high, but and and money was starting to flow. But what you'll notice when when gold goes up and and money starts coming into the sector, it flows to the seniors first, then it trickles down to the intermediates, the junior miners, and then finally the explorers. So money was starting to come into the sector last year when we were here. But this conference, Beaver Creek, is is is for the junior companies and explorers, junior developers, and the money hadn't trickled down that far yet. This year the money is trickling down and and so financings are being done. People have uh capital so they can go out and drill, they can go and build. All that was missing last year. So it really is a a stark contrast. >> Why do you think financing activity was still in the tepid phase last year despite the prices having climbed up and especially considering that the GDX started running up this year? So it really looked like capital started flowing in much later than gold's rise from the early 2024 period. >> Well that that you'll you'll if you look historically you'll always see that the gold moves it takes a while for people I I think historically people have seen where gold will take a run and people will pile in and it won't have legs. uh and and and then it drops and people get burnt and they sort of okay I'm not going back into gold. So they're they're a little cautious when they see gold running. They want to make sure that it's a sustained increase in the price of gold before they come in and and it's different this time I think for a lot of reasons but that is driving it. >> Did you get the uh sense that maybe some banking analysts or investors last year didn't believe that the gold price run last year would stay? it was kind of transitory if you want to take your own pal's language and then maybe this year they're feeling it a bit more is that the case >> I I I think so but never rely on the bank analysts for the gold price because you know I I you know gold's at 3600 I'm not sure what the consensus gold price is going forward for analysts but I bet you it's probably in the 2000s and they're they're always if you ask me behind the curve on on where the metal is >> well that's they're probably being conservative they're banks yeah cash flow model where are we right now in the cycle in this bull cycle and if you take 2011 as an example as a guidepost are we at 2011 are we at 2010 2009 >> I I'd say we're in the early stages of this of this cycle uh we're not 20 2011 we rolled over in early in 2012 >> and you really notice that I I think we're at the early stages of this run and and I think it's fundamentally different this time um we've got inflation happening which we haven't seen for 30 40 And we have this bifurcation in in the world where we have um the bricks or that group and and the more US and European groups and and gold is the only common currency now cuz people are especially central banks on the bricks. They're not wanting to be buried with a bunch of US treasuries cuz you know the US just shuts them down, right? So that bifurcation I think is is what's a big difference this time in driving the gold price. >> I saw this amazing stat here. Foreign central banks now hold more gold than treasuries. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I saw that chart. Incredible. >> That's not that was a kind of a recent development like in the last couple of years really it started this accumulation of gold by the central banks. Why do you think they're doing that? >> Well I I I think it's that bifurcation. They don't want to just be holding US dollars cuz if the US says we're shutting you down out of the Swift system, you you're losing your access. Uh and yeah, I I I I just think it's that tension between the East and West or the bricks and the sort of developed nations and the developing nations, that tension between them. >> Yeah. >> That is is driving a lot of this. >> I wasn't around in the industry in 2010. Uh I was still in school. But anyway, I'm curious to get your perspective of what was different back then um in terms of the narrative of why gold ran up between 20 uh you know mid 2000s to 2011 versus now. The the reasons you're giving me now were they applicable back then or different? >> They they the reasons that we have it now aren't the reasons then. Inflation was dead. Um I I think maybe it was devaluation in currency, China coming on, you know, big demand out of China for gold and and that. So it was somewhat demand driven for the metal but not like we're seeing today. And also you got to remember coming out of the late 90s gold hit from my if I recall I was in the business about $250 an ounce because all the central banks were selling it. And so it it there was a long way for it to come up just to get back to a reasonable value valuation in that period because it just been driven down by Canada sold off almost all its gold. the UK sold off its gold and and that just suppressed the price of gold. So eventually it it chewed through that supply and started to move up. >> I believe uh before 2011 the last time gold had a huge run up was actually early '7s. And so basically for the first time in decades the gold industry saw a massive rally, massive support from the underlying metal. So how did the industry at that time react to what was then an all-time high? I I think a couple of things. One, uh a as you know, you know, margin is important when you're producing gold because that that's how much money you're actually making. And and what happened the last time the price of gold went up, people would drop their cuto off grade so they could produce more ounces cuz they were focused on ounces. So it didn't matter how much profit they made. They were focused on I rather than saying I I'll make 100,000. No, I can make 200,000 ounces of gold. I'll get a higher rating in my stock. Well, they they produced 200,000 ounces of gold without much margin. So, they weren't making as much money even potentially. So, um this time around people are not dropping their cuto off grade as much. So, they are making money and so the industry they're paying off their debts. Uh dividends are getting paid. Um they're banking cash and and they're really cleaning up balance sheets. The last time around they dropped their cut off. They didn't have a lot of cash. They went on big acquisition sprees where they paid ridiculous amounts I think for some projects and and that really turned off the investment community community. >> Well, it's probably good for the entire banking ecosystem and the mining ecosystem at the time, but post 2011, we saw what happened to the price. How did the industry quote unquote survive between 2012 to 2019? >> It was a tough time. Well, exploration dropped off. Um we we peritted and built a mine during that period and we fi financed it in 2015. In order for us to finance our mine, we dealt with private equity. That was really the only money readily available and it was expensive money. We paid 15% uh you know all in if you look at the cost of the money it was about 15%. But allowed us to get our mind built. It was a tough time. there was not a lot of capital available for for exploration or for or for construction of a mine. >> With gold at $3,600, you'd imagine the large producers have record free cash flow. You'd imagine with that extra cash, they'd probably be going on, you know, another shopping spree. Is that what's happening? >> Not yet. You're starting to see some mergers. Uh I I think the way it works usually is after 2011 2012 a lot of the the mining companies you know the investors were essentially weren't too happy with them for blowing out their capital capital structures and and not really being uh prudent with their money. And so there's been a lot of work on discipline. So being fiscally disciplined in the mining sector and I think you're seeing that now. So there's a lot of discipline. They're paying debts off. They're banking cash. At some point they will they will go on an acquisition spree because uh any mine is no mine lasts forever and so it's a wasting asset if you want to call it and so they will need to replenish their ounces so they can keep their production up. So production acquisitions will come but they're not really you don't really see a lot of that yet. What are they waiting for? >> I I think they're waiting. I I What happened in 2011 201011 from what I understand is a lot of the investors were were actually pushing the mining companies. Okay. Well, where's your growth? Where's your growth? I don't think they're getting pushed about growth at this point yet. At some point when they're fully cashed up and debts are taken care of, the investment community will say, "Okay, let's let's look at where's your growth profile?" and and and at that point in time, you're going to maybe see the taps open on acquisitions, >> right? The GDX and GDXJ shot up dramatically, the the gold mining indices, the junior and the mater indices from Finex shot up dramatically in August this year. I mean, it's been climbing pretty much all year. But what happened during the summer when basically if you look at the chart, it went up in a straight line. >> I I think that's that really people gold broke through. Yeah. and and uh 3500 and really that I think finally got the sort of generalist investors, the general retail investors. You know, there's always been gold bugs and people who believed in gold, but more the general investment type. So, ah, look at the return. I think gold, what's gold up this year, 45% or something? It's an incredible amount. So if you're, you know, you're seeing that and you're maybe seeing some of the bigger indices starting to look like they're topping, this is just a new place to put your money to get a good return. >> How does this impact tutor gold? I'm talking about the current environment for uh for the gold price and for appetite for gold. How does this impact you? >> I I think the way it impacts us is we have access to capital. We're we're in an earlier stage. We've got this large uh gold deposits. one of the biggest discoveries in recent memory. And and so to move that forward, you need capital. And so with the gold price up and sentiment coming into the industry or positive sentiment, you're seeing access to capital improve. >> Yeah. Tell us about uh the project itself. It's in the Golden Triangle in British Columbia. >> We're up in northern British Columbia just east of the Alaska panhandle. Um we are when I say a big gold project we have in in the gold category if you're familiar with uh the mining categories of resources we have 21.66 million ounces of gold in the indicated category at a grade of about.92 gram of gold per ton and another 4.88 million ounces of gold in the inferred category at a grade of 1.0 grams per ton. Now, if you if you look at in the Golden Triangle at these big gold deposits, our deposit, Treaty Creek, it's our our project really stands out because of that grade. It is a relatively high grade for these bulk tonnage deposits. And besides that, we actually have high grade within that. So, there's a lot of potential here to build a mine. >> The found the company was founded in 2015, I believe. walk us through the history of >> Well, I I'm relatively new to the company. I came on as president and CEO of May in May of this year. >> Sure. >> But the company was formed uh and it it bought into a joint venture, >> excuse me, for the Treaty Creek project. It it acquired a 60% interest in the project from two other parties. One was called American Creek, other one resources. They each had a 20% carried interest. And and in the mining business, carried means you don't have to put any money in. and the other party's paying everything. So our company Tutor Gold was pairing all paying all the freight developing this resource and bringing it on making the discovery. Um so that's but we had 60% carrying 40%. So what we did and we announced this September 4th so just just last week we acquired one of our uh joint ventures American Creek Resources and so we now have an 80% interest in the project which really gives us more heft and a bigger percentage of the project and we can really drive it forward with this percentage. >> What's your primary objective as CEO at least for the next couple of quarters? Look at my coming in my objective in coming into into Tutor Gold is is having a hard look at the asset and and our property and how do we get from where we are today to production the quickest possible way and and and you know cuz in the end of the day it's great to have a lot of gold ounces and everything else but if you're not producing where's the return for the shareholder? >> Well fundamentally why are you positioning yourself to produce? Why not just build up the asset and get a takeover? >> Well, I historically from the way we've always looked at things, you always have to be driving your project forward. If you just build it up and say, "Okay, it's for sale." You can sit there for a long time. And there are a lot of examples of that where where assets have been developed to a certain stage and people say, "We're going to sell it." And they can sit there for 10 years, maybe longer. the the way you add value is to drive to production because if no one comes along well then you're producing and you're creating value for your shareholders and if somebody comes along in the interimm and says hey I'm willing to take that off your hands at a price our shareholders want well then best of both worlds for them so drive it forward create value >> tell us about uh either you your uh yours or your management team's history of producing um uh ores and uh actually putting a, you know, deposit into production. >> Happy to do that. Uh, our our team, we've worked together, geez, I've worked with some of the people on the team since the mid 90s. So, we've worked together a long time. >> Uh, our most recent success was we our team discovered, built, developed, ran, operated the uh Bruce Jack mine. It's about 15 kilometers south of our current mine. It's currently owned by New Pneumont Gold, the world's biggest mining company. Uh, and so it was a challenge, but uh, we we built it. We took it from discovery in 2009 to pouring our first gold in less than eight years. And that's in northern British Columbia. Tough tough build. We were building in an area with 22 m of snow in the winter. Uh, we had a 75 km long access road. 12 km of it was was over a glacier. So, a lot of challenges, but we still were able to drive that through to production in in under 8 years. So, we have a lot of experience in the area. We've worked with the local First Nations. We've looked worked with the local communities. So, we know what we're doing in the triangle and we know how to create value. >> I believe let's take a look at your shareholder structure. So, uh Eric Sprat is a major shareholder. Um you've got a significant retail shareholder uh base and then Tutor Holdings. What is Tutor Holdings? Tutor Tutor Holdings is the trust of the founder of the company. Walter Storm founded the company back in 2015. He passed away a couple years ago now, but he had a a goodiz holding in the company. And that trust is for his uh children and for some charitable organizations. >> Okay. And uh how much does management own? >> Oh, that's off the top of my head. Uh if management part of part of management is represented by that trust. So you bring the trust in management, you're probably seeing north north of the 15%. >> Sure. Sure. >> I I've recently come in when I joined in, we completed a financing. I participated for about $100,000 of that just to put some uh get some skin in the game. >> Yeah. Well, the company currently has about 260 million shares outstanding, I believe. And um I I'm just wondering how you would transition this company into a production company. Are you planning to do it yourself, partner with somebody going to a JV? >> Oh, from my perspective, look at if we were to try to build the a mine that would take advantage of that full 21.66 million ounces of indicated gold all at once, we would need a partner, a big company. What our team is, we've come in taken a look at the or body and what we're working on right now is isolating some higher grade lenses of mineralization within that deposit. What we're focused on doing is can we come up with say 3 to 5 million ounces of gold within that 2 to three g range. Well, we could come up with a a mine that we could build. You know, we're thinking something 8 to 10,000 tons a day. You know, capex in that billion to a billion and a half range. that's something we could build and operate and that gives you a nice starter mine. So you get that in, you start paying off capital and everything else, all your infrastructure, then you can move on to a bigger mine. But so our focus right now is coming up with a higher grade u uh resource that we can start a mine with uh as tutor gold without a big partner coming in. >> What's the timeline uh that investors can look forward to? Well, at this point in time, we're still trying to isolate and and put boundaries around that grade. I'd like to say we'll have an answer. We'll know if we're successful on that front by say November. >> And if we are successful in in in in putting boundaries around that, coming up with what we'd like to see, I'd say a preliminary economic assessment would that would give you a good feel for the economics of the project would be completed by mid next year. Now we have another uh another tact we're taking at the project is we believe there's potential for a higher grade more more grade that on average is something like they're mining down at Bruce Jack that we build something that's going to average maybe 8 to 10 g per ton gold and uh but we won't be able to figure find that out until we actually go underground at the deposit and drill from there because it's down down a ways. Uh so to properly do that and economically do that, we're in the process of permitting an underground ramp. So a decline where you come in, excavate a tunnel down to a where you can set up your drills and then drill short holes. It's it's far more efficient to do that than to try to drill from surface. So we're we're permitting that. We hope to get that permitted by next spring. Uh and then we would take us about a year to get down there. You can only go so fast when you're driving underground. So take about a year to get it down underground and then we can move quickly after that. Maybe within two to three months we'll know whether we have this higher grade mineralization that we that we could drive an even higher grade mine with. >> Well, give us a an update on a recent intersect that you uh announced. >> Sure. When I when so when I was talking about trying to outline that 2 to three gram mineralization, we have a perfect example of that. We announced just just last Monday, we announced a 54 meter intercept at 2.57 grams of gold per ton. We put together enough intercepts like that where we were talking about 3 to 5 million ounces, we have a nice solid gold mine that I think we could produce in that 250 to 300,000 ounces of gold a year, which is a nice size mine by anyone's standards. >> Yeah. are you um how uh uh how well capitalized are you for the next couple of quarters? >> Oh, we're we're in good shape. We raised uh just under $15 million last May. Uh we've spent some on our acquisition of American Creek. We've spent some on exploration this summer, but we're still I I would expect we're going to end the quarter around $8 million, uh which will see us well into the next year. However, I I think with this run up in gold price that you're going to see later this year a lot of people looking for flow through shares. And for those not familiar with flow through shares, that's uh a uh where we issue shares to shareholders and then we pass our tax losses off in relation to that money to them. So it essentially it's a tax write off for these investors. And so I think a lot of people are going to be making money in the gold space in the coming months and they're going to be looking to shelter some tax. Uh and so I I think there might be an opportunity to acquire uh to raise money at a nice premium later this year. >> Yeah. Just on that note, uh why wait for later this year? Why not do it potentially now? Your stock's already up. I was just checking like more than 40% a couple of weeks. we well we feel there's lots of room for our stock to run yet over this term but also I I don't think you're seeing the premiums in that u as you get closer to the end of the year the premiums on the flow through when there's big demand go up and I think we can drive a better bargain later in the year we'll be opportunistic about this when we see a good good value for us and our shareholders we'll take advantage of it >> what's your reaction to um earlier this week the tech and Anglo merger it was a no premium bid uh which a lot of investors on the tech I were very disappointed with. What does that speak up to in regards to the current M&A environment? >> Look, it I I I think, you know, there's been a lot of look at tech's been, you know, Glen Core has been chasing tech. I think BHP was chasing Aglow. They both know they need to grow if they're going to stay independent. And so, I think it was just uh they both realized they had to do they had to do something. So, let's put the companies together, create this big copper giant of a company. I'm not convinced they'll be successful in in in getting together. I I know BHP was really wanting Anglo. I'm pretty sure and and Glen Corors made no bones about it. They they were interested in the tech portfolio. So, uh we'll wait and see whether uh they can pull it off. >> Another interesting uh development that's happening here is that Tether, the stable coin company, is here and they're adding gold to the reserves, which is, you know, surprising to a lot of people. I just want to get your reaction to that. I >> I think it's a logical progression. And I've I've heard of guys working on this for quite a while trying to try tie crypto to gold. So you have the best of both worlds in something that's an alternate currency to the US dollar. And I I think it's it's great and it brings more capital into our market. >> Helps us advance projects. >> In theory, if gold were digitized, uh you'd have a lot more access to capital, I think. >> Yeah. No, I I agree with you completely. >> You have a whole new investor base. um on the blockchain. So, going just finishing off on the on the on the gold cycle itself, you mentioned that there's more room to climb. I I'm wondering what you're basing that off of. >> I just look at the way the world's going. >> We have these challenges uh between the bricks and the west. Central banks are still buying gold. >> It's hard to bring, you know, it's supply and demand. people are starting to say, "Hey, I want more gold in my portfolio just to give me that little bit of cushion and and and look for the the premium that comes with it." Uh, and there we can't just turn on another mine and say, "Here's more gold." It's it's very it takes a long time at times to permit and get in production. So, supply is what it is and that demand is picking up and so the only thing to give is price. >> I'm just curious how you personally reacted to this per current cycle. Were you not a little bit nervous when you saw the chart and then all of a sudden you woke up and gold's at $3,600? I mean, a couple years ago, people were calling for $3,000. They were labeled crazy. >> Oh, absolutely. Right. But you could just see it developing and coming along. And so, we weren't surprised. Uh we were expecting this just because of central. >> As I say, there's limited supply and it's it's hard to react to supply constraints in in the gold industry. What do you think or if you could request the BC government or even the Canadian government to change certain mining policies, what would those changes be? >> Well, I think the BC governments is is is doing fairly well? Um they they I I the the minister of mines for BC is down at the conference. I think that's a a big step. And he was talking about how look, we're looking to streamline streamline permitting. And that's not to say we're making it lowering our requirements cuz a rigor rigorous permitting environment is valuable to us as miners in BC because it gives people in the rest of the world confidence that when a mine is permitted it's at the highest standard. So I, you know, we don't want to drop that, but we would like to see things streamlined and and in the past, uh, you know, you'll have multiple levels of approvals and that. I think it would be nice if we could get the federal government. Um, you know, the la last time we built, we had to permit with the provincial government and we had to permit with the f federal government and yet, you know, you're permitting the same mine and it's all the same thing. So it should just be one process to move it forward. Do you have to build your own infrastructure, power lines and roads and all that? >> Yeah, our last mine we built a 75 km road, a 57 km long power line. Yeah. >> Uh nothing wrong with that, >> especially for our project, Tutor Gold, our Treaty Creek project. >> The government building that for you guys. >> Well, they have the BC government years back, uh jeez, a while ago now, I can't remember how long ago now, 15 years ago, they built a northwest transmission line that runs up north along Highway 37 in British Columbia. We're 40 kilometers off that line. So, we're just building a 40 km long transmission line and it's right along the side of our road. We actually have great access to infrastructure at our two to go project. >> Are you thinking of expanding your project base or land package? And >> our focus is on going from where we are today to production. We have a lot of potential for more gold on our existing property. We don't need to go chasing other properties. I I don't doubt that there's more than twice what we have already discovered sitting on that property. >> I know you haven't done an official PA yet, but rough estimate if you were to guess right now, how much would you be able to produce, you know, throughput on an annual basis? >> Well, what we're targeting as a first starter mine is what we would like to see is 250 to 300,000 ounces of gold. Now, it there's big ifs in there, but we're working on that and we'll know more and more about this come November and then if we're successful in November, come mid next year. >> All right. So, the next milestone that we have to look forward to as investors, >> uh we have we're drilling up at the site right now trying to get some more drill holes into some of this grade and try to so we can help outline the grade. So, we've got some more drill results coming out. Hopefully, we have some more results like the one we put out earlier this week. So, you see that through the fall. Yeah. >> Um, you'll have more news on our >> on our permitting process. Uh, we're doing some metallurgical work. So, there's it's it's just that steady news of moving forward. November will be a big one. That's when we'll get our resource estimate out with what we would hope is a sensitivity that shows what how many ounces we would potentially have at a at a grade in the 2 to three grams, you know, range so that we can move it forward through a PA. So, November would be a big milestone for us. >> So, let's end on you. Let's talk about your career. How did you get it involved in Tutor Gold? How did you get involved in mining? >> Well, I got involved in your life. >> Oh, geez. Well, I don't want to put everybody to sleep, but I was a mechanical engineer. Uh, but while I was in school, I I worked at a mine up in the Golden Triangle, Grand Duke mine. Really enjoyed it. So, when I came out of mechanical engineering, the market wasn't so good in the mid 80s. So, I I went back to law school after a few years of engineering and I worked for mining companies as a lawyer. And then I went to work at a mining company, Silver Standard Resources, mid 90s, and I'm still working with people I met there today. great team. We've had a lot of success. So I went we went from Silver Standard where we discovered the Bruce Jack mine. We went to Predium Resources what we started up uh and I was fortunate enough to be the uh president CEO and with a great team of people and we took that through to production. So that's a a quick summary >> to the people younger people watching this who are interested in the mining sector. How do you how does one transition from an engineer or geologist to the seauite? >> Well, stay up on uh look at from my perspective it was just really trying to understand the business and how it works. So you see a lot of great geologists that you know and and they love geology and they don't want to go past that. But if you want to move past that you have to start looking at the business side of things. So it's it's not enough to know the rocks. You have to understand how to raise money, how to deal with people. I think the big >> that's something you'll learn on the job because you didn't learn that as a mechanical engineer. >> You have to learn it on the job. And I think the biggest thing you can learn is how to work with people and and actually bring people together and because you're never going to be successful unless you can generate put together a team that'll work together and really drive things hard and and that's I and that's just a life lesson. You've got to learn to work with people, >> right? Okay. And what were the biggest life lessons you learned along the way? >> Oh, I had a lot of mistakes along the way. And so that's where you learn. I I >> tell us about one mistake. >> I can't really think of one I that I'd want to talk about, but I've had many. And so I tell you nothing, you don't learn anything. Well, I got kicked out of engineering my early days for goofing off. So I learned that. Okay. >> Well, maybe you got to be serious. You know, you you can't just have fun all the time. life, you know, you need to put some sweat into things. Maybe a big lesson is um nothing comes easy. If you really want success, you have to work at it. It just doesn't show up on your doorstep. >> For somebody who's in school right now, should they pursue a career in mining in 2025? >> I think I think it's a great future. Actually, my daughter's gone in. I have one of my daughters is a mining engineer. Okay. And I I think it's it's a fantastic future. The world needs metal especially you look at electrification you look at AI all these things you need metal uh and so a great opportunity for young people get in uh it's it's it's well it pays you well you meet some it's it's it's you meet some great people in the industry and and it's just fun so I highly recommend it >> I I I went to business school myself so I don't know a lot of people personally who have been interested in mining and Um certainly there's I went to McGill there's a big engineering department there. >> Um but I I just how would you convince somebody you know who is entering their early 20s to even look at the sector as a potential >> uh career path? >> Well, I I I I think you look at what you do when you're in the mining business. If you like the outdoors, there's great opportunity. If you like to travel, there's great opportunity. I've worked all over the world seeing incredible sites. I've worked in Far East Russia. I've worked up in the Andes. Yeah, you a lot of opportunity to see the world. Um, you get paid, you're compensated well. Sure. And there's just uh I find it attracts good people and and you end up working with some great a great crowd. >> Okay, Joe, wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for being a part of the program. Thank you for supporting the show and I look forward to speaking with you again soon. >> Well, I appreciate the time. Thank you very much. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.
$3,600 Gold Price Is 'Early Stages', What's Next For Markets? | Joe Ovsenek
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Gold is the only common currency. Now, >> Tether, the stable coin company, is here and they're adding gold to the reserves, which is, you know, surprising to a lot of people. >> This time around, people are not dropping their cuto off grade as much. So, they are making money and so the industry, they're paying off their debts. Uh, dividends are getting paid. Um, they're banking cash and and they're really cleaning up balance sheets. [Applause] [Music] We're here with Joe Ozeneck. He's the CEO of Tutor Gold. Very interesting deposit in British Columbia. I'm happy to say that. That's where I'm from. So, very excited to be speaking with you about your project and also what's coming up for the entire gold mining sector. Like you were telling me offline, Joe, this is a turning point for the entire sector. Sentiment has never been this good, at least for a long, long time. So, I'm happy to have you on the show and thank you for being a part of the program. Thank you for supporting us. Well, pleased to be here and enjoy the opportunity. >> Joe, what is different this year versus last year when it comes to sentiment, financing, M&A activity, drilling activity? Gold's at new all-time highs. It was actually at a then all-time high last year, but you said it's night and day. >> Yeah. Well, I think the difference is we had an all-time high, but and and money was starting to flow. But what you'll notice when when gold goes up and and money starts coming into the sector, it flows to the seniors first, then it trickles down to the intermediates, the junior miners, and then finally the explorers. So money was starting to come into the sector last year when we were here. But this conference, Beaver Creek, is is is for the junior companies and explorers, junior developers, and the money hadn't trickled down that far yet. This year the money is trickling down and and so financings are being done. People have uh capital so they can go out and drill, they can go and build. All that was missing last year. So it really is a a stark contrast. >> Why do you think financing activity was still in the tepid phase last year despite the prices having climbed up and especially considering that the GDX started running up this year? So it really looked like capital started flowing in much later than gold's rise from the early 2024 period. >> Well that that you'll you'll if you look historically you'll always see that the gold moves it takes a while for people I I think historically people have seen where gold will take a run and people will pile in and it won't have legs. uh and and and then it drops and people get burnt and they sort of okay I'm not going back into gold. So they're they're a little cautious when they see gold running. They want to make sure that it's a sustained increase in the price of gold before they come in and and it's different this time I think for a lot of reasons but that is driving it. >> Did you get the uh sense that maybe some banking analysts or investors last year didn't believe that the gold price run last year would stay? it was kind of transitory if you want to take your own pal's language and then maybe this year they're feeling it a bit more is that the case >> I I I think so but never rely on the bank analysts for the gold price because you know I I you know gold's at 3600 I'm not sure what the consensus gold price is going forward for analysts but I bet you it's probably in the 2000s and they're they're always if you ask me behind the curve on on where the metal is >> well that's they're probably being conservative they're banks yeah cash flow model where are we right now in the cycle in this bull cycle and if you take 2011 as an example as a guidepost are we at 2011 are we at 2010 2009 >> I I'd say we're in the early stages of this of this cycle uh we're not 20 2011 we rolled over in early in 2012 >> and you really notice that I I think we're at the early stages of this run and and I think it's fundamentally different this time um we've got inflation happening which we haven't seen for 30 40 And we have this bifurcation in in the world where we have um the bricks or that group and and the more US and European groups and and gold is the only common currency now cuz people are especially central banks on the bricks. They're not wanting to be buried with a bunch of US treasuries cuz you know the US just shuts them down, right? So that bifurcation I think is is what's a big difference this time in driving the gold price. >> I saw this amazing stat here. Foreign central banks now hold more gold than treasuries. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I saw that chart. Incredible. >> That's not that was a kind of a recent development like in the last couple of years really it started this accumulation of gold by the central banks. Why do you think they're doing that? >> Well I I I think it's that bifurcation. They don't want to just be holding US dollars cuz if the US says we're shutting you down out of the Swift system, you you're losing your access. Uh and yeah, I I I I just think it's that tension between the East and West or the bricks and the sort of developed nations and the developing nations, that tension between them. >> Yeah. >> That is is driving a lot of this. >> I wasn't around in the industry in 2010. Uh I was still in school. But anyway, I'm curious to get your perspective of what was different back then um in terms of the narrative of why gold ran up between 20 uh you know mid 2000s to 2011 versus now. The the reasons you're giving me now were they applicable back then or different? >> They they the reasons that we have it now aren't the reasons then. Inflation was dead. Um I I think maybe it was devaluation in currency, China coming on, you know, big demand out of China for gold and and that. So it was somewhat demand driven for the metal but not like we're seeing today. And also you got to remember coming out of the late 90s gold hit from my if I recall I was in the business about $250 an ounce because all the central banks were selling it. And so it it there was a long way for it to come up just to get back to a reasonable value valuation in that period because it just been driven down by Canada sold off almost all its gold. the UK sold off its gold and and that just suppressed the price of gold. So eventually it it chewed through that supply and started to move up. >> I believe uh before 2011 the last time gold had a huge run up was actually early '7s. And so basically for the first time in decades the gold industry saw a massive rally, massive support from the underlying metal. So how did the industry at that time react to what was then an all-time high? I I think a couple of things. One, uh a as you know, you know, margin is important when you're producing gold because that that's how much money you're actually making. And and what happened the last time the price of gold went up, people would drop their cuto off grade so they could produce more ounces cuz they were focused on ounces. So it didn't matter how much profit they made. They were focused on I rather than saying I I'll make 100,000. No, I can make 200,000 ounces of gold. I'll get a higher rating in my stock. Well, they they produced 200,000 ounces of gold without much margin. So, they weren't making as much money even potentially. So, um this time around people are not dropping their cuto off grade as much. So, they are making money and so the industry they're paying off their debts. Uh dividends are getting paid. Um they're banking cash and and they're really cleaning up balance sheets. The last time around they dropped their cut off. They didn't have a lot of cash. They went on big acquisition sprees where they paid ridiculous amounts I think for some projects and and that really turned off the investment community community. >> Well, it's probably good for the entire banking ecosystem and the mining ecosystem at the time, but post 2011, we saw what happened to the price. How did the industry quote unquote survive between 2012 to 2019? >> It was a tough time. Well, exploration dropped off. Um we we peritted and built a mine during that period and we fi financed it in 2015. In order for us to finance our mine, we dealt with private equity. That was really the only money readily available and it was expensive money. We paid 15% uh you know all in if you look at the cost of the money it was about 15%. But allowed us to get our mind built. It was a tough time. there was not a lot of capital available for for exploration or for or for construction of a mine. >> With gold at $3,600, you'd imagine the large producers have record free cash flow. You'd imagine with that extra cash, they'd probably be going on, you know, another shopping spree. Is that what's happening? >> Not yet. You're starting to see some mergers. Uh I I think the way it works usually is after 2011 2012 a lot of the the mining companies you know the investors were essentially weren't too happy with them for blowing out their capital capital structures and and not really being uh prudent with their money. And so there's been a lot of work on discipline. So being fiscally disciplined in the mining sector and I think you're seeing that now. So there's a lot of discipline. They're paying debts off. They're banking cash. At some point they will they will go on an acquisition spree because uh any mine is no mine lasts forever and so it's a wasting asset if you want to call it and so they will need to replenish their ounces so they can keep their production up. So production acquisitions will come but they're not really you don't really see a lot of that yet. What are they waiting for? >> I I think they're waiting. I I What happened in 2011 201011 from what I understand is a lot of the investors were were actually pushing the mining companies. Okay. Well, where's your growth? Where's your growth? I don't think they're getting pushed about growth at this point yet. At some point when they're fully cashed up and debts are taken care of, the investment community will say, "Okay, let's let's look at where's your growth profile?" and and and at that point in time, you're going to maybe see the taps open on acquisitions, >> right? The GDX and GDXJ shot up dramatically, the the gold mining indices, the junior and the mater indices from Finex shot up dramatically in August this year. I mean, it's been climbing pretty much all year. But what happened during the summer when basically if you look at the chart, it went up in a straight line. >> I I think that's that really people gold broke through. Yeah. and and uh 3500 and really that I think finally got the sort of generalist investors, the general retail investors. You know, there's always been gold bugs and people who believed in gold, but more the general investment type. So, ah, look at the return. I think gold, what's gold up this year, 45% or something? It's an incredible amount. So if you're, you know, you're seeing that and you're maybe seeing some of the bigger indices starting to look like they're topping, this is just a new place to put your money to get a good return. >> How does this impact tutor gold? I'm talking about the current environment for uh for the gold price and for appetite for gold. How does this impact you? >> I I think the way it impacts us is we have access to capital. We're we're in an earlier stage. We've got this large uh gold deposits. one of the biggest discoveries in recent memory. And and so to move that forward, you need capital. And so with the gold price up and sentiment coming into the industry or positive sentiment, you're seeing access to capital improve. >> Yeah. Tell us about uh the project itself. It's in the Golden Triangle in British Columbia. >> We're up in northern British Columbia just east of the Alaska panhandle. Um we are when I say a big gold project we have in in the gold category if you're familiar with uh the mining categories of resources we have 21.66 million ounces of gold in the indicated category at a grade of about.92 gram of gold per ton and another 4.88 million ounces of gold in the inferred category at a grade of 1.0 grams per ton. Now, if you if you look at in the Golden Triangle at these big gold deposits, our deposit, Treaty Creek, it's our our project really stands out because of that grade. It is a relatively high grade for these bulk tonnage deposits. And besides that, we actually have high grade within that. So, there's a lot of potential here to build a mine. >> The found the company was founded in 2015, I believe. walk us through the history of >> Well, I I'm relatively new to the company. I came on as president and CEO of May in May of this year. >> Sure. >> But the company was formed uh and it it bought into a joint venture, >> excuse me, for the Treaty Creek project. It it acquired a 60% interest in the project from two other parties. One was called American Creek, other one resources. They each had a 20% carried interest. And and in the mining business, carried means you don't have to put any money in. and the other party's paying everything. So our company Tutor Gold was pairing all paying all the freight developing this resource and bringing it on making the discovery. Um so that's but we had 60% carrying 40%. So what we did and we announced this September 4th so just just last week we acquired one of our uh joint ventures American Creek Resources and so we now have an 80% interest in the project which really gives us more heft and a bigger percentage of the project and we can really drive it forward with this percentage. >> What's your primary objective as CEO at least for the next couple of quarters? Look at my coming in my objective in coming into into Tutor Gold is is having a hard look at the asset and and our property and how do we get from where we are today to production the quickest possible way and and and you know cuz in the end of the day it's great to have a lot of gold ounces and everything else but if you're not producing where's the return for the shareholder? >> Well fundamentally why are you positioning yourself to produce? Why not just build up the asset and get a takeover? >> Well, I historically from the way we've always looked at things, you always have to be driving your project forward. If you just build it up and say, "Okay, it's for sale." You can sit there for a long time. And there are a lot of examples of that where where assets have been developed to a certain stage and people say, "We're going to sell it." And they can sit there for 10 years, maybe longer. the the way you add value is to drive to production because if no one comes along well then you're producing and you're creating value for your shareholders and if somebody comes along in the interimm and says hey I'm willing to take that off your hands at a price our shareholders want well then best of both worlds for them so drive it forward create value >> tell us about uh either you your uh yours or your management team's history of producing um uh ores and uh actually putting a, you know, deposit into production. >> Happy to do that. Uh, our our team, we've worked together, geez, I've worked with some of the people on the team since the mid 90s. So, we've worked together a long time. >> Uh, our most recent success was we our team discovered, built, developed, ran, operated the uh Bruce Jack mine. It's about 15 kilometers south of our current mine. It's currently owned by New Pneumont Gold, the world's biggest mining company. Uh, and so it was a challenge, but uh, we we built it. We took it from discovery in 2009 to pouring our first gold in less than eight years. And that's in northern British Columbia. Tough tough build. We were building in an area with 22 m of snow in the winter. Uh, we had a 75 km long access road. 12 km of it was was over a glacier. So, a lot of challenges, but we still were able to drive that through to production in in under 8 years. So, we have a lot of experience in the area. We've worked with the local First Nations. We've looked worked with the local communities. So, we know what we're doing in the triangle and we know how to create value. >> I believe let's take a look at your shareholder structure. So, uh Eric Sprat is a major shareholder. Um you've got a significant retail shareholder uh base and then Tutor Holdings. What is Tutor Holdings? Tutor Tutor Holdings is the trust of the founder of the company. Walter Storm founded the company back in 2015. He passed away a couple years ago now, but he had a a goodiz holding in the company. And that trust is for his uh children and for some charitable organizations. >> Okay. And uh how much does management own? >> Oh, that's off the top of my head. Uh if management part of part of management is represented by that trust. So you bring the trust in management, you're probably seeing north north of the 15%. >> Sure. Sure. >> I I've recently come in when I joined in, we completed a financing. I participated for about $100,000 of that just to put some uh get some skin in the game. >> Yeah. Well, the company currently has about 260 million shares outstanding, I believe. And um I I'm just wondering how you would transition this company into a production company. Are you planning to do it yourself, partner with somebody going to a JV? >> Oh, from my perspective, look at if we were to try to build the a mine that would take advantage of that full 21.66 million ounces of indicated gold all at once, we would need a partner, a big company. What our team is, we've come in taken a look at the or body and what we're working on right now is isolating some higher grade lenses of mineralization within that deposit. What we're focused on doing is can we come up with say 3 to 5 million ounces of gold within that 2 to three g range. Well, we could come up with a a mine that we could build. You know, we're thinking something 8 to 10,000 tons a day. You know, capex in that billion to a billion and a half range. that's something we could build and operate and that gives you a nice starter mine. So you get that in, you start paying off capital and everything else, all your infrastructure, then you can move on to a bigger mine. But so our focus right now is coming up with a higher grade u uh resource that we can start a mine with uh as tutor gold without a big partner coming in. >> What's the timeline uh that investors can look forward to? Well, at this point in time, we're still trying to isolate and and put boundaries around that grade. I'd like to say we'll have an answer. We'll know if we're successful on that front by say November. >> And if we are successful in in in in putting boundaries around that, coming up with what we'd like to see, I'd say a preliminary economic assessment would that would give you a good feel for the economics of the project would be completed by mid next year. Now we have another uh another tact we're taking at the project is we believe there's potential for a higher grade more more grade that on average is something like they're mining down at Bruce Jack that we build something that's going to average maybe 8 to 10 g per ton gold and uh but we won't be able to figure find that out until we actually go underground at the deposit and drill from there because it's down down a ways. Uh so to properly do that and economically do that, we're in the process of permitting an underground ramp. So a decline where you come in, excavate a tunnel down to a where you can set up your drills and then drill short holes. It's it's far more efficient to do that than to try to drill from surface. So we're we're permitting that. We hope to get that permitted by next spring. Uh and then we would take us about a year to get down there. You can only go so fast when you're driving underground. So take about a year to get it down underground and then we can move quickly after that. Maybe within two to three months we'll know whether we have this higher grade mineralization that we that we could drive an even higher grade mine with. >> Well, give us a an update on a recent intersect that you uh announced. >> Sure. When I when so when I was talking about trying to outline that 2 to three gram mineralization, we have a perfect example of that. We announced just just last Monday, we announced a 54 meter intercept at 2.57 grams of gold per ton. We put together enough intercepts like that where we were talking about 3 to 5 million ounces, we have a nice solid gold mine that I think we could produce in that 250 to 300,000 ounces of gold a year, which is a nice size mine by anyone's standards. >> Yeah. are you um how uh uh how well capitalized are you for the next couple of quarters? >> Oh, we're we're in good shape. We raised uh just under $15 million last May. Uh we've spent some on our acquisition of American Creek. We've spent some on exploration this summer, but we're still I I would expect we're going to end the quarter around $8 million, uh which will see us well into the next year. However, I I think with this run up in gold price that you're going to see later this year a lot of people looking for flow through shares. And for those not familiar with flow through shares, that's uh a uh where we issue shares to shareholders and then we pass our tax losses off in relation to that money to them. So it essentially it's a tax write off for these investors. And so I think a lot of people are going to be making money in the gold space in the coming months and they're going to be looking to shelter some tax. Uh and so I I think there might be an opportunity to acquire uh to raise money at a nice premium later this year. >> Yeah. Just on that note, uh why wait for later this year? Why not do it potentially now? Your stock's already up. I was just checking like more than 40% a couple of weeks. we well we feel there's lots of room for our stock to run yet over this term but also I I don't think you're seeing the premiums in that u as you get closer to the end of the year the premiums on the flow through when there's big demand go up and I think we can drive a better bargain later in the year we'll be opportunistic about this when we see a good good value for us and our shareholders we'll take advantage of it >> what's your reaction to um earlier this week the tech and Anglo merger it was a no premium bid uh which a lot of investors on the tech I were very disappointed with. What does that speak up to in regards to the current M&A environment? >> Look, it I I I think, you know, there's been a lot of look at tech's been, you know, Glen Core has been chasing tech. I think BHP was chasing Aglow. They both know they need to grow if they're going to stay independent. And so, I think it was just uh they both realized they had to do they had to do something. So, let's put the companies together, create this big copper giant of a company. I'm not convinced they'll be successful in in in getting together. I I know BHP was really wanting Anglo. I'm pretty sure and and Glen Corors made no bones about it. They they were interested in the tech portfolio. So, uh we'll wait and see whether uh they can pull it off. >> Another interesting uh development that's happening here is that Tether, the stable coin company, is here and they're adding gold to the reserves, which is, you know, surprising to a lot of people. I just want to get your reaction to that. I >> I think it's a logical progression. And I've I've heard of guys working on this for quite a while trying to try tie crypto to gold. So you have the best of both worlds in something that's an alternate currency to the US dollar. And I I think it's it's great and it brings more capital into our market. >> Helps us advance projects. >> In theory, if gold were digitized, uh you'd have a lot more access to capital, I think. >> Yeah. No, I I agree with you completely. >> You have a whole new investor base. um on the blockchain. So, going just finishing off on the on the on the gold cycle itself, you mentioned that there's more room to climb. I I'm wondering what you're basing that off of. >> I just look at the way the world's going. >> We have these challenges uh between the bricks and the west. Central banks are still buying gold. >> It's hard to bring, you know, it's supply and demand. people are starting to say, "Hey, I want more gold in my portfolio just to give me that little bit of cushion and and and look for the the premium that comes with it." Uh, and there we can't just turn on another mine and say, "Here's more gold." It's it's very it takes a long time at times to permit and get in production. So, supply is what it is and that demand is picking up and so the only thing to give is price. >> I'm just curious how you personally reacted to this per current cycle. Were you not a little bit nervous when you saw the chart and then all of a sudden you woke up and gold's at $3,600? I mean, a couple years ago, people were calling for $3,000. They were labeled crazy. >> Oh, absolutely. Right. But you could just see it developing and coming along. And so, we weren't surprised. Uh we were expecting this just because of central. >> As I say, there's limited supply and it's it's hard to react to supply constraints in in the gold industry. What do you think or if you could request the BC government or even the Canadian government to change certain mining policies, what would those changes be? >> Well, I think the BC governments is is is doing fairly well? Um they they I I the the minister of mines for BC is down at the conference. I think that's a a big step. And he was talking about how look, we're looking to streamline streamline permitting. And that's not to say we're making it lowering our requirements cuz a rigor rigorous permitting environment is valuable to us as miners in BC because it gives people in the rest of the world confidence that when a mine is permitted it's at the highest standard. So I, you know, we don't want to drop that, but we would like to see things streamlined and and in the past, uh, you know, you'll have multiple levels of approvals and that. I think it would be nice if we could get the federal government. Um, you know, the la last time we built, we had to permit with the provincial government and we had to permit with the f federal government and yet, you know, you're permitting the same mine and it's all the same thing. So it should just be one process to move it forward. Do you have to build your own infrastructure, power lines and roads and all that? >> Yeah, our last mine we built a 75 km road, a 57 km long power line. Yeah. >> Uh nothing wrong with that, >> especially for our project, Tutor Gold, our Treaty Creek project. >> The government building that for you guys. >> Well, they have the BC government years back, uh jeez, a while ago now, I can't remember how long ago now, 15 years ago, they built a northwest transmission line that runs up north along Highway 37 in British Columbia. We're 40 kilometers off that line. So, we're just building a 40 km long transmission line and it's right along the side of our road. We actually have great access to infrastructure at our two to go project. >> Are you thinking of expanding your project base or land package? And >> our focus is on going from where we are today to production. We have a lot of potential for more gold on our existing property. We don't need to go chasing other properties. I I don't doubt that there's more than twice what we have already discovered sitting on that property. >> I know you haven't done an official PA yet, but rough estimate if you were to guess right now, how much would you be able to produce, you know, throughput on an annual basis? >> Well, what we're targeting as a first starter mine is what we would like to see is 250 to 300,000 ounces of gold. Now, it there's big ifs in there, but we're working on that and we'll know more and more about this come November and then if we're successful in November, come mid next year. >> All right. So, the next milestone that we have to look forward to as investors, >> uh we have we're drilling up at the site right now trying to get some more drill holes into some of this grade and try to so we can help outline the grade. So, we've got some more drill results coming out. Hopefully, we have some more results like the one we put out earlier this week. So, you see that through the fall. Yeah. >> Um, you'll have more news on our >> on our permitting process. Uh, we're doing some metallurgical work. So, there's it's it's just that steady news of moving forward. November will be a big one. That's when we'll get our resource estimate out with what we would hope is a sensitivity that shows what how many ounces we would potentially have at a at a grade in the 2 to three grams, you know, range so that we can move it forward through a PA. So, November would be a big milestone for us. >> So, let's end on you. Let's talk about your career. How did you get it involved in Tutor Gold? How did you get involved in mining? >> Well, I got involved in your life. >> Oh, geez. Well, I don't want to put everybody to sleep, but I was a mechanical engineer. Uh, but while I was in school, I I worked at a mine up in the Golden Triangle, Grand Duke mine. Really enjoyed it. So, when I came out of mechanical engineering, the market wasn't so good in the mid 80s. So, I I went back to law school after a few years of engineering and I worked for mining companies as a lawyer. And then I went to work at a mining company, Silver Standard Resources, mid 90s, and I'm still working with people I met there today. great team. We've had a lot of success. So I went we went from Silver Standard where we discovered the Bruce Jack mine. We went to Predium Resources what we started up uh and I was fortunate enough to be the uh president CEO and with a great team of people and we took that through to production. So that's a a quick summary >> to the people younger people watching this who are interested in the mining sector. How do you how does one transition from an engineer or geologist to the seauite? >> Well, stay up on uh look at from my perspective it was just really trying to understand the business and how it works. So you see a lot of great geologists that you know and and they love geology and they don't want to go past that. But if you want to move past that you have to start looking at the business side of things. So it's it's not enough to know the rocks. You have to understand how to raise money, how to deal with people. I think the big >> that's something you'll learn on the job because you didn't learn that as a mechanical engineer. >> You have to learn it on the job. And I think the biggest thing you can learn is how to work with people and and actually bring people together and because you're never going to be successful unless you can generate put together a team that'll work together and really drive things hard and and that's I and that's just a life lesson. You've got to learn to work with people, >> right? Okay. And what were the biggest life lessons you learned along the way? >> Oh, I had a lot of mistakes along the way. And so that's where you learn. I I >> tell us about one mistake. >> I can't really think of one I that I'd want to talk about, but I've had many. And so I tell you nothing, you don't learn anything. Well, I got kicked out of engineering my early days for goofing off. So I learned that. Okay. >> Well, maybe you got to be serious. You know, you you can't just have fun all the time. life, you know, you need to put some sweat into things. Maybe a big lesson is um nothing comes easy. If you really want success, you have to work at it. It just doesn't show up on your doorstep. >> For somebody who's in school right now, should they pursue a career in mining in 2025? >> I think I think it's a great future. Actually, my daughter's gone in. I have one of my daughters is a mining engineer. Okay. And I I think it's it's a fantastic future. The world needs metal especially you look at electrification you look at AI all these things you need metal uh and so a great opportunity for young people get in uh it's it's it's well it pays you well you meet some it's it's it's you meet some great people in the industry and and it's just fun so I highly recommend it >> I I I went to business school myself so I don't know a lot of people personally who have been interested in mining and Um certainly there's I went to McGill there's a big engineering department there. >> Um but I I just how would you convince somebody you know who is entering their early 20s to even look at the sector as a potential >> uh career path? >> Well, I I I I think you look at what you do when you're in the mining business. If you like the outdoors, there's great opportunity. If you like to travel, there's great opportunity. I've worked all over the world seeing incredible sites. I've worked in Far East Russia. I've worked up in the Andes. Yeah, you a lot of opportunity to see the world. Um, you get paid, you're compensated well. Sure. And there's just uh I find it attracts good people and and you end up working with some great a great crowd. >> Okay, Joe, wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for being a part of the program. Thank you for supporting the show and I look forward to speaking with you again soon. >> Well, I appreciate the time. Thank you very much. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.