Bridging Institutions and Innovation in the Digital Asset Era | DAS London 2025 | Day 2 | Main
Summary
Market Insights: The podcast discusses recent market turbulence, emphasizing the role of leverage rather than crypto itself as a primary concern, highlighting the need for caution in frothy markets.
Investment Themes: Tokenization, particularly of cash and stablecoins, is identified as a potential "killer app" in crypto, offering solutions to inefficiencies in traditional finance systems.
Company Discussions: Algorand's role in tokenizing equities and its partnerships for humanitarian aid payments in Afghanistan are highlighted as examples of blockchain's practical applications.
Opportunities: The convergence of traditional finance (TradFi) and decentralized finance (DeFi) is seen as a significant opportunity, with banks potentially offering wallets and stablecoins to customers.
Risks and Challenges: Concerns are raised about the potential for rehypothecation of stablecoin collateral, which could undermine financial stability if not properly managed.
Market Products: The discussion touches on the emergence of crypto ETFs and DATs, noting the importance of making these products accessible to both Wall Street and Main Street investors.
Regulatory Environment: The evolving regulatory landscape is seen as a critical factor in the adoption and integration of crypto within traditional financial systems.
Key Takeaways: The podcast underscores the transformative potential of blockchain technology in improving financial systems' efficiency and transparency, despite ongoing skepticism and regulatory hurdles.
Transcript
Hello everyone. Welcome to day two of D London. I feel further away from you this time. U you might have come to see uh Ethereum's institutional dominance. That'll be a little bit later. Uh Stacy and I are going to be kicking it off. Uh we had the slot uh if you recall about seven months ago at DS in New York uh between President Trump and Michael Sailor. uh they loved it so much that they wanted us to kick off day two. Um it's uh the next trillion Algarand's institutional dominance is what this uh talk is going to be about. Yeah. So before we dive in um you know in day one we heard a lot of speakers kind of address uh some of the market turbulence last week and the kind of historic level of liquidations that we saw last Friday. Um just kind of curious of you know your your takeaway from that and what we can what the industry can take away going forward. You know my main takeaway I guess is that when President Trump says something like that on a Friday late afternoon when markets are illquid. Um, the best thing to do really is to stay home, turn off the computer, order some tacos from your favorite Mexican restaurant, maybe a margarita or two, and, you know, just let it roll out that way cuz might not be that bad as he says. Um, but more seriously, you know, I don't have I'm not I'm not a trader, so I don't have a lot to say about, you know, Binance's Oracle, the the the hygiene of Binance's Oracle or the machinations of short sellers related to news or anything like that. But I guess there's a couple of troubling things about this. I mean, first of all, it's not about crypto, it's about leverage. It's always about leverage, right? and you know retail on hyperlquid like not really understanding how perplex works like if you're on a per if you're trading on a perex and you you know and you're levered you know 10x on Pepe it is not that that exchange has 10 times the Pepe on hand to hand you that's not how it works right you're only going to get filled to the extent that short that that somebody's losing right because they have to keep that their books balanced, right? And I also think that, you know, when you get into these frothy frothy markets, you start thinking like certain things are true and you start taking them more and more as law like there's a Trump family put for example is something that you hear a lot or that's will always be this constant source of demand and you know this is just like if you're around long enough like nothing's true, right? Um, so I think you just have to you have to uh you know it's a it's a buyer trader beware kind of market, but you know crypto figures it out, right? Like we're like teenagers on an island kind of with nobody that ever came before us. And you have to stick your hand in the fire before you understand that like fires are hot and don't stick your hand in it. And we keep we learn the lessons the hard way. But we do keep learning them and we do keep making ourselves better and more resilient and more uh you know more anti-fragile. So um yeah I mean last on this I will just say though that um like you got to find a way through like losing everything is terrible. Losing your mother's savings is terrible. Losing $30 million in 10 minutes is like not fun. But you you have to find a way through. I don't want to read about people shooting themselves in the head, right? Like so yeah. And so with um with with your deep background in tra traditional finance and now uh being at the Algrand Foundation, would love to kind of hear how you kind of feel what you kind of think is the the killer app in crypto right now from where you sit and and then we'll kind of dig a little bit more into each one. Well, you know, when I was in Das, New York, I was walking down the hall and you know how you had those tables, those standing tables out there and somebody had his laptop open and was talking to somebody else and they he was like, I can create a stable coin for you on demand. You want your own stable coin? I can make I can we can make one for you. And you know, I might have been a little slow to that news cycle, but that's the first time I had really heard that and I was like, okay, this is where we're going, right? like I you know and then the more you think about it the more that completely makes sense. So I'll maybe I'll say the killer app is tokenization, excuse me. And the tokenization of cash in particular is going to be very important. And I think in crypto we have to find things and we always look for things uh that have utility beyond the price of the token. And I think that that um RWA tokenization and stablecoin tokenization very much fit that bill. Yeah. Yeah. And and why do you think the market's kind of evolved that way? Um even just ah because like I've been around finance for a very long time and it just sucks. I mean it like I cannot tell you I was at JP Morgan for eight years like and through the global financial crisis like there are hundreds of millions of dollars being spent by people just trying to figure out who owns what, you know, like I had c I looked after central bank clients. central bank's calling me like our repo agreement like what does it say exactly like where what are our positions and you think you have this and you know you think it's like an absolute mess and and tokenization solves for that right and then and then the and then correspondent banking is also just like it's a mess you know why can you send a movie from Nigeria to Malaysia over WhatsApp but you if you want to send $10 you're traveling through the correspondent banking system it's ridiculous you send a wire. You can't You don't know where your wire is. I mean, sometimes it gets there. Some I've had a wire decline twice. A friend of mine is trying to send me money from Germany. Twice it's bounced back to her. Like, why? We don't know. Nobody knows. I um Yeah. I mean, it you know, so like there's stable coins and and and RWAs are the solution to this. there's such a good solution to so many of these problems that there's just no there's no re even all of the doubters and the fudsters and all of this like you you're going to come along eventually right because it's a better way to live right like if you're a like like let me give you an example with stable coins and then I'll give you an example with um RWA and stable coins like you're a large manufacturer and you have suppliers all across the global If you need to pay them, you have to have banking relationships in all of those countries to get and have liquidity in local currencies in all of your supplier countries. Like, do you want to do that or do you want to hold your treasury in US dollars in a bank in the United States and issue a stable coin to pay those suppliers? Right? It's like so much better and to be able to pay them instantly, right? So, um, yeah. And somehow you're still you're you're still hearing criticisms about stable coins. Uh, you know, I, uh, very, you know, you think we all think like this, this stuff is like baked in. It's obvious. Everybody's talking about it. All your friends are talking about it constantly. But like most people really don't understand anything about crypto. And I hear um a criticism about stable coins which is you know first of all there's this underlying idea that only governments can you know print money. So if you if you put that aside that like you know if you liquidate collateral then uh you know you're going to have this like financial contagion effect and well you know under genius stable coins which are like 300 billion um have to be backed by US treasuries. US treasury market is the most liquid market in the world. seven trillion dollar market. You treasury, you know, bills and bonds, $30 trillion market. I mean, like, I think it's going to be okay. You know what I mean? If everybody sells all the collateral for their stable coins, I think we're still going to be okay. And there's a slightly more nuanced and interesting argument about fiscal dominance, that it will disintermediate central banking because governments will be able to issue debt directly to stable coin holders and it won't get intermediated through the banking system. And I think that's a more intellectually interesting argument, but I'm also not worried about it. Yeah. And then with RWAS, I think on stage last time, we talked about um you talked about a world of paying for coffee with a sliver of a money market fund. And um you know, we've seen the convergence of stable coins and tokenization. In September, we saw NASDAQ's filing to uh tokenize securities on his exchange. Galaxy tokenizing shares on um Salana, Kraken's X stocks, Robin Hood stock tokens, those you know being a little bit different, not holding shareholder rights but uh giving price exposure to uh those stocks. So just kind of curious of where you think all this is going to end up and and how you see kind of tokenized equities playing out um as we get deeper here. Yeah. So the first uh company to tokenize their shares uh on uh chain was not Galaxy on Salana. It was actually Exodus on Algorand. So I do want to say that but what Galaxy had was superstate as a transfer agent and this turns out to be very interesting kind of thing. So um and and this applies to the NASDAQ as as a whole. So maybe I'll start with the NASDAQ. So those those securities are going to be um available in bookkeeping form and in token form. You know they're not going to go live until probably 2026 2027 with this but they will have a unified order book. They will have share the same QIP number. They will be fungeable with each other. So that means the same voting rights, the same dividends, the same, you know, shareholder rights, all of that. uh when you go to the DTC, you'll be able to uh uh you know clear in terms of uh tokens or bookkeeping. So they're going to be uh fungeible with each other and I think that's going to be very important and what superstate uh allows is that fungeability also for for a galaxy and I think it's really interesting and and um Robert Lner who who founded superstate I think the name is very interesting because it's a nod I think to quantum mechanics that these things are going to exist in these realms simultaneously and not uh you know when one is minted the other one is burned of course right so you're not going to have two bonds in under one QIP but like this idea that these can be fungeible between um between uh bookkeeping and tokens I think is is is going to be pretty cool and I think it's going to move more and more to a tokenized form because it's just frankly it's just better right right and uh speaking of tokenized equities you know we've heard with equities DATs have come up a at this at this conference and it's been a topic of conversation for the last few months is more pop up. It's not just strategy anymore. Um you know Tom Tom Lee, we've heard him talk a lot about ETH and and Salana Dats as well. Um just kind of curious how what you think of this uh this emergence of this many DATs and uh yeah, are we going to see an Algarand dad at some point soon? You know, the thing about I mean, first of all, they're not, you know, they're not most of them are not doing very well, right? They're they're uh so I mean, you've got Michael Sailors and you've got Tom Le and so but beyond that, they're not really they're not trading above NAV really, right? to that's putting it mildly, I guess. And um so we don't have plans to do one. And I think the more you know if you're a if you're a smaller ecosystem um you have to always think about your liquidity and um if you start trading below NAV and you don't have the liquidity to do something about it then that can be like a bad place for you to be in. So I'm I have I think there's potential but I'm much more worried about downside risk around that. Um and I just don't think it's worth it and it you know takes a while to do it's a lot a big administrative burden. Um but I uh I will just say in general about debts that um you know read the fine print on these things because they are not all the same right and there's a lot of leakage in terms of management fees in some of these there's a lot of uh derivative and leverage elements to some of these things and so just you know you have to be you have to you have to you have to do your homework on these. Yeah. And with another way of exposure uh to get exposure to crypto, we're seeing we're getting ready for a new wave of uh US crypto ETFs after the SEC's uh general listing standards. Um also just kind of curious of how you feel of the demand that we're going to see for products that you know go beyond Bitcoin and Ether. Yeah. I mean I think you have to like you have to c you have to know your audience, right? And if you are for all of the the boomer wealth, you know, retirement wealth that is managed by um registered investment advisors, RAAS and RAS buy ETFs, right? And so you you can you're you're going to see more and more ETF type products uh coming and we've of course explored this as well. Um, so yeah, it's gonna it's going to continue and and DATs and ETFs are kind of the same kind of thing. You have to make it manageable for Wall Street investors and main street investors and you know, as much as we all love our, you know, ledgers, right? Um, especially since they came out with the stacks, I think is so cool, I think. But, um, you know, people they don't they don't self-custody, right? They don't have wallets. They don't self- custody. So you have to they're not going to keep their, you know, 24 words, you know, safe someplace. So you have to you have to go where the market is, right? And make it easy. Yeah. And the government uh shut down maybe tampered with the timeline a little bit on Salon ETF. So is I don't think we've seen um an Algrand ETF filing yet, but uh we're we'll watch out for one. Well, what they have done is they've put some uh the SEC has put some regulations in place that um make it difficult for us because you have to have you have to be trading futures in the CME for six months and that kind of thing. We haven't been doing that. So, it's not it's a US uh ETF is not available to us right now. So, we have to just kind of bake that into our our roadmap. Yeah. and with your with your background at JP Morgan and and NASDAQ, um would love for you to kind of put back the Tradfi lens and and just kind of, you know, we've seen this evolution of how traditional finance views crypto over the last few years. Um it's changed a lot in different kind of chapters and eras. And I would just love for you maybe to just take us through that a little bit. And I'm curious of of how you think of each one. And um well, yeah, I I'll let I'll let you take over there, but just because it's obviously changed from Yeah. them not liking crypto to trying to make money in it now and um dive in and see the opportunities. So from your background, how do you view that? I think there's four stages. First stage is what is this thing? This is like a knat that we don't have to pay attention to. Then crypto grows and gets more traction and then it's like okay what is this it's a threat out come the lobbyists out come that you know this like don't you know crypto no then you get a a slightly more benign regulatory environment you move into stage three which is okay so like bring it here how can we make money how can this be like a banking centric thing and then um stage four is it was invented here we thought of it you guys who are you this was this was a banking idea all along. You know, that's how how these things always end. I think for crypto purists, the the the third is maybe the most terrifying because you you know, I'm very happy about mainstream adoption and a bank adoption. And I think it's going to I think you know banks should have offer their customers wallets interchangeable stable coins like that's the future. That's a much more consumerfriendly thing. Um but I also think that uh you know you lo we're losing a bit of the ethos of of uh of crypto. you know, Algarand is really one of the only remaining decentralized layer ones, right? Because, you know, sometimes you trade some efficiency for decentralization and you know, Wall Street has no time for that, right? Uh they I mean, after gravity, centralization is the most powerful force in the world, I think. Right. And so, you're you you you know, you make a little bit of a deal with the devil, I think, in some of this stuff. Yeah. How do you kind of see that in practice at Algram Foundation maybe as you're kind of you know welcoming traditional finance but also like you said trying to keep that ethos of crypto. Yeah. So we, you know, we have a um we have a couple of products that, you know, we work very closely with banks on, right? So one in particular, we do all of the kind of humanitarian aid payments into Afghanistan, right? And so this is a digital Afghani. We partner with a a bank in Afghanistan. The Afghani central bank like keeps a very heavy, you know, thumb on what is happening in and out of their countries. Meanwhile, they're under sanctions and so nobody wants to, you know, save the children or the UN World Food Program or whatever has a hard time sending money into Afghanistan. But we were able to partner with banks and regulators and say with Hassab Pay that's it's you know, it's not an Algarand company. It's built on Algarand but they're their own company of course and they say look you know how don't we can show you where the money is going because this is on Algarand like so so they sort of in a backdoor way showed the value of being on a blockchain because they had this like transparency on the ledger and then we took it a bit further and said okay aid flows are there's just you know and President Trump complain you know we shut down USA ID for example So why don't we build an a transparency portal on the back of it that's very web too very easy to to see and so we you know you can now kind of and you can see where where the flows go anybody can you know and so it's like that kind of thing where you you are using the technology of web 3 but you're putting it in a little bit more of a web two wrapper to make it easy for people I think is is uh the way forward. Absolutely. Yeah. And we have about a minute left. So just looking forward, you know, maybe what are you most excited about? What are you most skeptical of as we kind of enter this new chapter of, you know, trifi DeFi convergence? um skeptical. I don't know, but I have like this weird fear that is probably completely unwarranted, which is that um uh you know, under genius, you cannot rehypothecate the collateral that is used to back up stable coins. But if we figure out a way to do that, that will be no bueno. So, um uh and it's easy to rehypothecate in crypto. We just wrap things and, you know, off off they go. But where I'm uh really bullish I think is the same general idea that we talked about in New York. The idea that you with tokens everything can become money and it can be yieldbearing money. And so why is my money why do we have 20 billion dollars a year in collateral in the financial system tied up earning absolutely nothing when you don't have to have that? It improves the velocity of money and it brings liquidity to illquid markets and it's just such a good idea that it can't be ignored. Great. Well, we'll leave it there. Really appreciate it, Stacy. And uh yeah, looking forward to the rest of the conf. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks, guys. Hi.
Bridging Institutions and Innovation in the Digital Asset Era | DAS London 2025 | Day 2 | Main
Summary
Transcript
Hello everyone. Welcome to day two of D London. I feel further away from you this time. U you might have come to see uh Ethereum's institutional dominance. That'll be a little bit later. Uh Stacy and I are going to be kicking it off. Uh we had the slot uh if you recall about seven months ago at DS in New York uh between President Trump and Michael Sailor. uh they loved it so much that they wanted us to kick off day two. Um it's uh the next trillion Algarand's institutional dominance is what this uh talk is going to be about. Yeah. So before we dive in um you know in day one we heard a lot of speakers kind of address uh some of the market turbulence last week and the kind of historic level of liquidations that we saw last Friday. Um just kind of curious of you know your your takeaway from that and what we can what the industry can take away going forward. You know my main takeaway I guess is that when President Trump says something like that on a Friday late afternoon when markets are illquid. Um, the best thing to do really is to stay home, turn off the computer, order some tacos from your favorite Mexican restaurant, maybe a margarita or two, and, you know, just let it roll out that way cuz might not be that bad as he says. Um, but more seriously, you know, I don't have I'm not I'm not a trader, so I don't have a lot to say about, you know, Binance's Oracle, the the the hygiene of Binance's Oracle or the machinations of short sellers related to news or anything like that. But I guess there's a couple of troubling things about this. I mean, first of all, it's not about crypto, it's about leverage. It's always about leverage, right? and you know retail on hyperlquid like not really understanding how perplex works like if you're on a per if you're trading on a perex and you you know and you're levered you know 10x on Pepe it is not that that exchange has 10 times the Pepe on hand to hand you that's not how it works right you're only going to get filled to the extent that short that that somebody's losing right because they have to keep that their books balanced, right? And I also think that, you know, when you get into these frothy frothy markets, you start thinking like certain things are true and you start taking them more and more as law like there's a Trump family put for example is something that you hear a lot or that's will always be this constant source of demand and you know this is just like if you're around long enough like nothing's true, right? Um, so I think you just have to you have to uh you know it's a it's a buyer trader beware kind of market, but you know crypto figures it out, right? Like we're like teenagers on an island kind of with nobody that ever came before us. And you have to stick your hand in the fire before you understand that like fires are hot and don't stick your hand in it. And we keep we learn the lessons the hard way. But we do keep learning them and we do keep making ourselves better and more resilient and more uh you know more anti-fragile. So um yeah I mean last on this I will just say though that um like you got to find a way through like losing everything is terrible. Losing your mother's savings is terrible. Losing $30 million in 10 minutes is like not fun. But you you have to find a way through. I don't want to read about people shooting themselves in the head, right? Like so yeah. And so with um with with your deep background in tra traditional finance and now uh being at the Algrand Foundation, would love to kind of hear how you kind of feel what you kind of think is the the killer app in crypto right now from where you sit and and then we'll kind of dig a little bit more into each one. Well, you know, when I was in Das, New York, I was walking down the hall and you know how you had those tables, those standing tables out there and somebody had his laptop open and was talking to somebody else and they he was like, I can create a stable coin for you on demand. You want your own stable coin? I can make I can we can make one for you. And you know, I might have been a little slow to that news cycle, but that's the first time I had really heard that and I was like, okay, this is where we're going, right? like I you know and then the more you think about it the more that completely makes sense. So I'll maybe I'll say the killer app is tokenization, excuse me. And the tokenization of cash in particular is going to be very important. And I think in crypto we have to find things and we always look for things uh that have utility beyond the price of the token. And I think that that um RWA tokenization and stablecoin tokenization very much fit that bill. Yeah. Yeah. And and why do you think the market's kind of evolved that way? Um even just ah because like I've been around finance for a very long time and it just sucks. I mean it like I cannot tell you I was at JP Morgan for eight years like and through the global financial crisis like there are hundreds of millions of dollars being spent by people just trying to figure out who owns what, you know, like I had c I looked after central bank clients. central bank's calling me like our repo agreement like what does it say exactly like where what are our positions and you think you have this and you know you think it's like an absolute mess and and tokenization solves for that right and then and then the and then correspondent banking is also just like it's a mess you know why can you send a movie from Nigeria to Malaysia over WhatsApp but you if you want to send $10 you're traveling through the correspondent banking system it's ridiculous you send a wire. You can't You don't know where your wire is. I mean, sometimes it gets there. Some I've had a wire decline twice. A friend of mine is trying to send me money from Germany. Twice it's bounced back to her. Like, why? We don't know. Nobody knows. I um Yeah. I mean, it you know, so like there's stable coins and and and RWAs are the solution to this. there's such a good solution to so many of these problems that there's just no there's no re even all of the doubters and the fudsters and all of this like you you're going to come along eventually right because it's a better way to live right like if you're a like like let me give you an example with stable coins and then I'll give you an example with um RWA and stable coins like you're a large manufacturer and you have suppliers all across the global If you need to pay them, you have to have banking relationships in all of those countries to get and have liquidity in local currencies in all of your supplier countries. Like, do you want to do that or do you want to hold your treasury in US dollars in a bank in the United States and issue a stable coin to pay those suppliers? Right? It's like so much better and to be able to pay them instantly, right? So, um, yeah. And somehow you're still you're you're still hearing criticisms about stable coins. Uh, you know, I, uh, very, you know, you think we all think like this, this stuff is like baked in. It's obvious. Everybody's talking about it. All your friends are talking about it constantly. But like most people really don't understand anything about crypto. And I hear um a criticism about stable coins which is you know first of all there's this underlying idea that only governments can you know print money. So if you if you put that aside that like you know if you liquidate collateral then uh you know you're going to have this like financial contagion effect and well you know under genius stable coins which are like 300 billion um have to be backed by US treasuries. US treasury market is the most liquid market in the world. seven trillion dollar market. You treasury, you know, bills and bonds, $30 trillion market. I mean, like, I think it's going to be okay. You know what I mean? If everybody sells all the collateral for their stable coins, I think we're still going to be okay. And there's a slightly more nuanced and interesting argument about fiscal dominance, that it will disintermediate central banking because governments will be able to issue debt directly to stable coin holders and it won't get intermediated through the banking system. And I think that's a more intellectually interesting argument, but I'm also not worried about it. Yeah. And then with RWAS, I think on stage last time, we talked about um you talked about a world of paying for coffee with a sliver of a money market fund. And um you know, we've seen the convergence of stable coins and tokenization. In September, we saw NASDAQ's filing to uh tokenize securities on his exchange. Galaxy tokenizing shares on um Salana, Kraken's X stocks, Robin Hood stock tokens, those you know being a little bit different, not holding shareholder rights but uh giving price exposure to uh those stocks. So just kind of curious of where you think all this is going to end up and and how you see kind of tokenized equities playing out um as we get deeper here. Yeah. So the first uh company to tokenize their shares uh on uh chain was not Galaxy on Salana. It was actually Exodus on Algorand. So I do want to say that but what Galaxy had was superstate as a transfer agent and this turns out to be very interesting kind of thing. So um and and this applies to the NASDAQ as as a whole. So maybe I'll start with the NASDAQ. So those those securities are going to be um available in bookkeeping form and in token form. You know they're not going to go live until probably 2026 2027 with this but they will have a unified order book. They will have share the same QIP number. They will be fungeable with each other. So that means the same voting rights, the same dividends, the same, you know, shareholder rights, all of that. uh when you go to the DTC, you'll be able to uh uh you know clear in terms of uh tokens or bookkeeping. So they're going to be uh fungeible with each other and I think that's going to be very important and what superstate uh allows is that fungeability also for for a galaxy and I think it's really interesting and and um Robert Lner who who founded superstate I think the name is very interesting because it's a nod I think to quantum mechanics that these things are going to exist in these realms simultaneously and not uh you know when one is minted the other one is burned of course right so you're not going to have two bonds in under one QIP but like this idea that these can be fungeible between um between uh bookkeeping and tokens I think is is is going to be pretty cool and I think it's going to move more and more to a tokenized form because it's just frankly it's just better right right and uh speaking of tokenized equities you know we've heard with equities DATs have come up a at this at this conference and it's been a topic of conversation for the last few months is more pop up. It's not just strategy anymore. Um you know Tom Tom Lee, we've heard him talk a lot about ETH and and Salana Dats as well. Um just kind of curious how what you think of this uh this emergence of this many DATs and uh yeah, are we going to see an Algarand dad at some point soon? You know, the thing about I mean, first of all, they're not, you know, they're not most of them are not doing very well, right? They're they're uh so I mean, you've got Michael Sailors and you've got Tom Le and so but beyond that, they're not really they're not trading above NAV really, right? to that's putting it mildly, I guess. And um so we don't have plans to do one. And I think the more you know if you're a if you're a smaller ecosystem um you have to always think about your liquidity and um if you start trading below NAV and you don't have the liquidity to do something about it then that can be like a bad place for you to be in. So I'm I have I think there's potential but I'm much more worried about downside risk around that. Um and I just don't think it's worth it and it you know takes a while to do it's a lot a big administrative burden. Um but I uh I will just say in general about debts that um you know read the fine print on these things because they are not all the same right and there's a lot of leakage in terms of management fees in some of these there's a lot of uh derivative and leverage elements to some of these things and so just you know you have to be you have to you have to you have to do your homework on these. Yeah. And with another way of exposure uh to get exposure to crypto, we're seeing we're getting ready for a new wave of uh US crypto ETFs after the SEC's uh general listing standards. Um also just kind of curious of how you feel of the demand that we're going to see for products that you know go beyond Bitcoin and Ether. Yeah. I mean I think you have to like you have to c you have to know your audience, right? And if you are for all of the the boomer wealth, you know, retirement wealth that is managed by um registered investment advisors, RAAS and RAS buy ETFs, right? And so you you can you're you're going to see more and more ETF type products uh coming and we've of course explored this as well. Um, so yeah, it's gonna it's going to continue and and DATs and ETFs are kind of the same kind of thing. You have to make it manageable for Wall Street investors and main street investors and you know, as much as we all love our, you know, ledgers, right? Um, especially since they came out with the stacks, I think is so cool, I think. But, um, you know, people they don't they don't self-custody, right? They don't have wallets. They don't self- custody. So you have to they're not going to keep their, you know, 24 words, you know, safe someplace. So you have to you have to go where the market is, right? And make it easy. Yeah. And the government uh shut down maybe tampered with the timeline a little bit on Salon ETF. So is I don't think we've seen um an Algrand ETF filing yet, but uh we're we'll watch out for one. Well, what they have done is they've put some uh the SEC has put some regulations in place that um make it difficult for us because you have to have you have to be trading futures in the CME for six months and that kind of thing. We haven't been doing that. So, it's not it's a US uh ETF is not available to us right now. So, we have to just kind of bake that into our our roadmap. Yeah. and with your with your background at JP Morgan and and NASDAQ, um would love for you to kind of put back the Tradfi lens and and just kind of, you know, we've seen this evolution of how traditional finance views crypto over the last few years. Um it's changed a lot in different kind of chapters and eras. And I would just love for you maybe to just take us through that a little bit. And I'm curious of of how you think of each one. And um well, yeah, I I'll let I'll let you take over there, but just because it's obviously changed from Yeah. them not liking crypto to trying to make money in it now and um dive in and see the opportunities. So from your background, how do you view that? I think there's four stages. First stage is what is this thing? This is like a knat that we don't have to pay attention to. Then crypto grows and gets more traction and then it's like okay what is this it's a threat out come the lobbyists out come that you know this like don't you know crypto no then you get a a slightly more benign regulatory environment you move into stage three which is okay so like bring it here how can we make money how can this be like a banking centric thing and then um stage four is it was invented here we thought of it you guys who are you this was this was a banking idea all along. You know, that's how how these things always end. I think for crypto purists, the the the third is maybe the most terrifying because you you know, I'm very happy about mainstream adoption and a bank adoption. And I think it's going to I think you know banks should have offer their customers wallets interchangeable stable coins like that's the future. That's a much more consumerfriendly thing. Um but I also think that uh you know you lo we're losing a bit of the ethos of of uh of crypto. you know, Algarand is really one of the only remaining decentralized layer ones, right? Because, you know, sometimes you trade some efficiency for decentralization and you know, Wall Street has no time for that, right? Uh they I mean, after gravity, centralization is the most powerful force in the world, I think. Right. And so, you're you you you know, you make a little bit of a deal with the devil, I think, in some of this stuff. Yeah. How do you kind of see that in practice at Algram Foundation maybe as you're kind of you know welcoming traditional finance but also like you said trying to keep that ethos of crypto. Yeah. So we, you know, we have a um we have a couple of products that, you know, we work very closely with banks on, right? So one in particular, we do all of the kind of humanitarian aid payments into Afghanistan, right? And so this is a digital Afghani. We partner with a a bank in Afghanistan. The Afghani central bank like keeps a very heavy, you know, thumb on what is happening in and out of their countries. Meanwhile, they're under sanctions and so nobody wants to, you know, save the children or the UN World Food Program or whatever has a hard time sending money into Afghanistan. But we were able to partner with banks and regulators and say with Hassab Pay that's it's you know, it's not an Algarand company. It's built on Algarand but they're their own company of course and they say look you know how don't we can show you where the money is going because this is on Algarand like so so they sort of in a backdoor way showed the value of being on a blockchain because they had this like transparency on the ledger and then we took it a bit further and said okay aid flows are there's just you know and President Trump complain you know we shut down USA ID for example So why don't we build an a transparency portal on the back of it that's very web too very easy to to see and so we you know you can now kind of and you can see where where the flows go anybody can you know and so it's like that kind of thing where you you are using the technology of web 3 but you're putting it in a little bit more of a web two wrapper to make it easy for people I think is is uh the way forward. Absolutely. Yeah. And we have about a minute left. So just looking forward, you know, maybe what are you most excited about? What are you most skeptical of as we kind of enter this new chapter of, you know, trifi DeFi convergence? um skeptical. I don't know, but I have like this weird fear that is probably completely unwarranted, which is that um uh you know, under genius, you cannot rehypothecate the collateral that is used to back up stable coins. But if we figure out a way to do that, that will be no bueno. So, um uh and it's easy to rehypothecate in crypto. We just wrap things and, you know, off off they go. But where I'm uh really bullish I think is the same general idea that we talked about in New York. The idea that you with tokens everything can become money and it can be yieldbearing money. And so why is my money why do we have 20 billion dollars a year in collateral in the financial system tied up earning absolutely nothing when you don't have to have that? It improves the velocity of money and it brings liquidity to illquid markets and it's just such a good idea that it can't be ignored. Great. Well, we'll leave it there. Really appreciate it, Stacy. And uh yeah, looking forward to the rest of the conf. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks, guys. Hi.