Clem Chambers: 2025 Was The Tipping Point, Here's What Happens To Your Money Next
Summary
Market Outlook: Consumer spending in the US rose by 0.4% in August, but the personal savings rate fell to 4.6%, raising questions about the sustainability of consumer strength.
Geopolitical Risks: Rising geopolitical tensions, particularly involving NATO and Russia, are impacting commodity prices, with Brent crude oil and gold seeing significant gains.
Precious Metals: Clem Chambers predicts gold could reach $4,500 to $5,000 due to geopolitical tensions, while silver could potentially double to $100 an ounce, driven by retail demand and its mining ratio to gold.
Strategic Reserves: The importance of strategic reserves in metals like platinum and palladium is highlighted, with these metals being crucial for both industrial and military applications.
US Manufacturing: Intel's strategic positioning in the US is emphasized as critical for national security, especially in the context of AI and semiconductor manufacturing.
Investment Strategy: Chambers advises diversifying into UK and European value stocks as a hedge against a falling dollar, while also highlighting the potential of copper due to increasing global demand.
Cryptocurrency Insights: Chambers expresses skepticism about the current institutional adoption of Bitcoin, suggesting it may suppress future growth, and predicts a potential crypto winter.
Future Opportunities: The AI revolution is seen as a major economic driver, comparable to the impact of the steam engine, offering significant investment opportunities in the coming years.
Transcript
[Music] Hey everyone, welcome back to Kicko. I'm Jeremy Saffron. Let's get you updated on the market moving data this morning. The headline is that the consumer is still spending. Real consumer spending rose a solid point4% in August, beating ex estimates that combined with core PCE inflation print that just came in as expected at about 2.9% and it's giving a little lift to the US equities this morning. But digging into that same report, we see that the personal savings rate just fell to 4.6%, its lowest level this year. And this aligns with the University of Michigan's final read on sentiment, which fell to a disimal 55.1, with nearly half of Americans saying high prices are eroding their finances. So the key question this morning is the US consumer strong or simply running on fumes. And meanwhile, I mean, look over at the hard assets. That geopolitical risk premium is flashing red. Brood uh Brent crude oil rather is on track for its biggest weekly gain in 3 months trading near $70 a barrel on the news of Ukrainian strikes on Russian energy infrastructure and gold I mean we've got to continue to talk about it here 3770 on the spot side and silver about $46 right here to help us navigate these cross currencies a man who thrives in these complex environments. Last time we had you on too we uh talked about Intel. We'll get into that. Let's welcome market veteran and author Clem Chambers. Uh, good to see you, my friend. >> Yeah, it was great to be back. >> Particularly when I've been right earlier. >> Yeah, I know. And you I should have probably listened to you on the intel call. But before we do that, uh, because of a lot of our audience members, if they listen to you would have been up significantly in the past few months with some of that M&A discussion and, you know, coming into the other companies. But I want to start first with this realworld risk flashing on the screen today because I mean we have headlines that NATO has issued a direct warning to Russia stating it's prepared to shoot down aircrafts to violate its airspace. I mean your gold for war thesis is well known to our audience. We've talked about it here. Clem. Is this the specific type of catalyst that begins the process of pricing in your $5,000 gold target or are we just taking a breath here for a while? Well, you see, I'm very good at getting in at the bottom and then getting out in the middle. That's normally what I end up doing. And then it goes, you know, a lot further and I go, "Oh, oh, there. I'll better get the next one that comes along." So, in my mind, when when I first saw this, I thought, "Oh," and I draw some, you know, magic lines on the magic charts like like people like me do, and I went three and a half thousand. Yeah, that that's that's good. Oh, excellent. I'll do well for that. And then when it started, my lines started to say four and a half thousand. and and in my mind 4 and a half thousand I'm going to be starting waking up in the at 3:00 a.m. in the morning and checking the gold price at 4 a half th000 but in my marrow I you know it could easily do 10 but not easily but 10 is the kind of holy cow I should I I need to get out but four to five is is is near now and I I'm pretty I have high conviction that we're going to be getting there that's my opinion >> and silver so you've got that chunk you know that that what is it about a reasonably decent percent more on gold, but but silver could double. >> Silver could quite easily go to um you know, could go double from here. Could go to $100 an ounce. So, I'm tending more towards silver than gold because, you know, silver is a retail thing and retail is catching on to what gold has done. Now, gold has done it because gold is for war and countries are buying it and when you know the 800 pound gorilla buys, Wall Street gets out of the way, stops playing games and you know the countries are consuming it. So if the global insanity continues, you know, countries won't care what they pay for it. They will just lay it in and it could go a lot further than it's gone. But it is now getting a bit of a heavy asset. But silver, silver is very interesting because for a start they every year they only mine eight times more silver by weight than gold. So it's 8:1 ratio. >> Mhm. >> But it's 80 to1 in value. So the there's there's a kind of energy there because once the retail market moves that is a juggernaut. So that could easily you know kick uh silver to $100 an ounce. So there's a lot of excitement for me there. But if you want to go even further and and you know I spoke on your show about platinum palladium when they were below a th00and they're now like 1,400. >> Yeah. And they only do 200 tons of that a year. 200 tons. And platinum is not only a heavy metal, not only very important for all the sorts of things that are coming with um with energy demands from AI, it's also a heavy precious metal which is the sort of thing that you transact war in heavy valuable things like metals like gold, like platinum, like plating in. So if this temperature of global stress continues to go up, they will they will really move. And pla palladium was $35,000 only a few years ago, only like four years ago. You can see that on the chart. And to give you an idea of just how sensitive those guys are is America's have got sanctions all over Russia, left, right, and center is telling um you know Europe to not buy any Russian oil and telling India will slap on huge tariffs if they stop don't stop buying oil from Russia. But America is buying all the platinum and palladium that Russia will sell it. There's no sanctions on platinum palladium from Russia to America. is outside of the sanctions because they can't do without it and they only make 200 tons a year and they make it in Russia and make it in South Africa and they make it in America. >> So what's that telling you? >> So have they moved on then? I mean have they moved on from the gold trade and they're thinking okay it's getting a little pricey at this point and they're moving on to you know this this >> I don't think so. >> No I don't think so. I just think it's a matter of you go well you know we're getting the gold. We're getting the gold. What else is there? And you know for for for governments trading using um precious metals or reserve things as as that kind of government to government currency. >> Mhm. Then it's only gold, but it has to be heavy because you have to transport it and you you know you can't silver is way light per you know per one one ounce is $100 one ounce $35,000 is you know when it comes to packing it into submarines and sending it places like they used to do in the Second World War. Density is a key issue and really there's only one other precious metal with that density and that's platinum and potentially palladium too. So if the this ridiculous everinccreasing global geopolitical stress continues to go up and up and up, you know, it's only natural that that res mineral and metal reserves will become a thing because your supply chains destroyed. >> You can't just ring up South Africa, send us some of that, will you? No, you can't because there's, you know, in the way that kind of thing. So you have to have it onshore. So strategic reserves like oil, America's got massive strategic reserve of oil, for example, but you can't use that for money. Well, you can actually, but you know, it's it's um gold is the ultimate currency for war. And and you start to spread out into other things that you need strategic reserves of. Copper, um manganese, German germanmanium. I thought that's a flower, isn't it? But you know what I mean? all those exotic minerals um out out there and America is moving on them to start to get them to be manufactured, mined, refined um you know re re uh processed from waste because it realizes that supply chains if push comes to shove cannot be long and in the end you can really you don't don't mind getting it from Brazil cuz that's not such a difficult place to get it from, but you don't want to be getting it from Australia or Africa or from your enemy or sorry, your the person that you're having, you know, differences with. You you have to have it to hand and that is going to really moderate a lot of value um coming forward because if you look at rare earth, what was going on, China was going, "Right, you've started making rare earth on your own without us. We want a monopoly of that. So, I'll tell you what, we're going to undercut you and you're going to go bust because you work in a democracy and if we undercut you because we subsidize our rare earth to a point where you can't even get close to competing, you'll go bust. So, oh, Mountain Pass, you're doing it again, you've gone bust. Okay, that's what they were doing. So, the American government come out and said to Mountain Pass, which has a history of this sort of stuff happening, and said, "We'll pay you double. Don't care what the world price is. We'll pay you double what the world price is today." and guarantee you to take that off you because otherwise those guys are going to come in and put you out of business again by undercutting you and dumping on the market until you've gone bust which is probably going to be about a year. So we guarantee your manufacturer at 2x of what the world price is so you'll be in business and we will have that strategic reserve >> and that is the future of minerals. Well, I was going to ask you about this strategic reserve because I mean, you've said obviously gold is the currency of conflict because it's what nations demand when they need to buy hard assets like steel and tungsten. You just kind of talked about it, but Clem, I mean, break that down in today's high-tech military environment. Is that still true? I mean, are nation states more likely to demand settlement in semiconductor chips or these advanced technologies rather than gold or even silver in the crisis? Well, you know, you can't um at the end of the day, a currency is something that acts as a lubricant between transactions. Yeah. And we're not going to go back to barter. Oh, look, I I'll have 6,000 Nvidia chips if you send me five 15,000 tons of tungsten. I mean they that will be the sort of thing that goes on but ultimately it's a currency that everybody agrees and everybody knows and everybody has long has forever um trusted that that is what becomes the that's what gold is that's why gold is the currency of of war and the currency well I mean the IMF has got mountains of it for example because it is the understood tangible everybody wants it under any condition um money out there and and it's heavy money. You see, if you look at the history of money, you got three sorts of money. You got gold, silver, and and brass, bronze. Yeah. Gold goes in a pot and you bury it in the corner of your house. Yeah. That's what they used to do when your house burned down. You could find out where the corner of your house was and there would be your pot of gold. But you didn't go around with it. You didn't carry it about. You carried silver around and you carried that in a purse. Okay? And you would go, you know, you'd buy if you got a big enough bag, you'd buy a horse or or you know, you would coin would buy you dinner, a small coin or or might buy you an inn for a week or whatever. That was reasonable size transactional money, $100 bills. Yeah. The copper was pocket money, which is why you find so much of it, cuz it was in pockets and would fall out and that's what you buy your, you know, pint of. Yeah. And it's still the case that different monies has have different use cases. Well, gold is intergovernmental money for governmentalsized transactions when your bonds are no longer welcome. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, when you're at in a conflict and people go, "Oh, yeah. You could lose and that paper could be worthless. So, send me some of the yellow metal, will you? I'll put it in a sub. I'll send it your way." Yeah. and and and that is when gold goes from um nobody cares to when everybody cares. And when you look at peak times of peace like when the British sold half their gold reserve, why do you need gold for? It's not going to be a war. It's that's all over. It's, you know, end of history. Don't need gold anymore. And then up pops certain people um in government and all of a sudden goes, "Oh no. Oh no." And Poland says, "We just bought gold bars." like yes only a few months ago like the the Minister of Finance held up a gold bar and said we're buying gold. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah. And you've been right on some of these calls. I mean you you let's we got to get into copper. We some I know. Hey, Intel was a good one. But before we do that, I just got to ask you just on platinum because we I feel like we don't talk about it enough. And right now there's a lot of interest in it for the audience. I mean you've pointed out platinum's historical 1:1 price ratio with gold. the return that would mean, you know, imply kind of a price of what $3,700. Is the ratio still the best framework for valuing platinum? I mean, has the fundamentals kind of changed here? Because our audience understands the logic of contrarian investing is right, but the psychology is brutal. I mean, when you held your platinum position while it was deeply out of favor, how did you manage the psychological pressure of being early or or potentially wrong? What's your personal process for filtering out this daily noise? diversified portfolio of risk. >> Yeah, >> that's simple as that. You need to have a diversified portfolio of risk and you need to know why you own your the assets and they will come good most of them and the ones that don't come good well you won't care because the other ones will have more than made up for it. So, you know, the point is you have to have a thesis. I I tell this story a lot. About 20 years ago, I was up to my my my naval and a bit more in a cold river in Scotland panning for gold. And the gold gold miner says, "If you think it's gold, it isn't. If you know it's gold, it is." And that doesn't make any sense until you find lots of shiny mic that looks like gold and it isn't. And then you see a little nugget and you know it is. And that's the same with investment. If you think it's a good investment, it isn't. If you know it's a good investment, it is. If you go, why can't anybody see that? Like copper. Why is copper where it is today when there's not enough of it? Nowhere near enough of it. And and what's going to happen next is is way way way more demand for copper than people are even better consider. Right? Before AI came along and and set the world that they're going to boil the oceans, there wasn't going to be enough copper because of all the electrification. Okay? And AI's come along and probably multiplied that by four. I mean, people think, "Oh, they're going to need a little bit more electricity now with AI a little bit." I did this um I've got this YouTube channel I started cuz you're going to ask me at the end where they can find more about me. So, I thought I better start YouTube. >> Let's plug it now. Let's let's plug it now. >> Let's plug it. Plug it. But Musk, he's in this thing two weeks ago and he says, "Oh, yes. AI will consume all the energy of the sun and then all the energy of the galaxy." And of course, everyone will go, "Well, he's nut, isn't he? He's he's he's a bit, you know, he's a bit loose. No, he's the richest man in the world and he's the man with the most AI for the longest. Oh, and he happens to be the richest man in the world. Oh, coincidence, that one. Yeah. So, he's saying that he's going to use all the energy of the sun, not just all the loose energy on Earth, all the energy possible. And he's right because there's no limit on demand for artificial intelligence. And there's more importantly no second place. Is it in the nuclear energy kind of side? I mean, I got to ask you this AI. I mean, the AI takeover is interesting because what was it July 24th? I have a note here. Was the last time we had you on the show? You talked about and highlighted Intel as a key company in that US re-industrialization theme. I mean, the stock is is up huge since you recommended it. And we just got this report from the Wall Street Journal. The Trump administration's weighing a plan to reduce reliance on foreign made chips. And Intel is obviously seeking that investment from Apple and its primary rival of all things TSM. Nice call, men. Um, is there still room to go? But the second part of the question is, is this kind of the real path to success for American manufacturing is not through tariffs and isolation, but through these these new strategic and perhaps necessary, you know, collaborations with these global tech giants. You've got to give um Bliss a reason to rebuild >> because there's plenty of reasons not to. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. You go in and they say, "Oh, here's a huge pile of paperwork. Go fill that out. Oh, it only take you 3 years to finish that." You know, "Oh, I I'm going to go somewhere else. I'll build it in India. I I'll build it in China. I'll build it in somewhere else where they don't put me through hell for trying to make jobs." Right? So, they've had to turn that around and you're seeing that now. Intel has fabs all over America, fab chip fabrication um factories, and they cost billions and they take years to build. Okay. Everybody else's is in Singapore or Taiwan or China. Yeah. Intel's they got a load and and they're they're getting back up to speed to to where they need to be to do the stuff that people like Nvidia want need the world needs and they're about 6 months behind everyone else. So that's not so bad. And the other place they've got them is Europe. So you want to build a chip factory that can make an Nvidia chip? Well, you better start now because it'll take you four years and it'll cost you 10 billion. And oh, by the way, Intel can probably do it in a year and a half. and they've already built them all and they're already there. Everyone else is is kind of, you know, 10-minute rocket ride from Beijing. >> So, funny enough, there's no choice. They do not have any choice. >> Yeah. >> You cannot fight a war without those chips. Yeah. So, what are they going to do? They're just going to say, "Oh, we can fight a war, but don't don't look at the fact we got no chips or you supply them. Keep supplying us the chips to put in our planes to to defend ourselves from you." Not going to work, is it? Yeah. And the only place where you can make these chips, that stuff's owned by Intel. >> And if you're Apple and your chips have been made in in China, you're already moving your stuff to India, right? Well, I'm not sure India's got um any fabs. So, who's going to make your chips for you? And who's going to make Nvidia's chips when they're all made in Taiwan, which is, you know, where they the Chinese have got cliff climbing ships? You can look them up on the internet. Oh, I wonder why. Well, Taiwan surrounded by cliffs, isn't it? So, they've only got two beaches that could come ashore. So, they've built cliff climbing ships. How much notice do you want when you've got your chip plant in Taiwan? And it's going to be an AI. There is an AI war right now. Right now, there's an AI war. And it's all about the chips. And those chips that going to power American AI currently are made in Taiwan. Well, hello Intel. Yes. Yes. We didn't like you. Uh, we like you now. Yes. Yes. You want to come on over? Yes. How about you have some money? And by the way, hey Apple, have a chat with our guys at Intel. Yeah. The people who've got all the fabs in America. Yeah. Those guys. Yeah. Have a chat. Hey, Soft Bank. You want to be my friend? Put some money into Intel, will you? Hey, Nvidia, do something with with Intel, will you? Yeah. Yeah. You need them to make your chips for you. You don't want to carry on making them in Taiwan, do you? No. No. No. No. You need to be their friend. up it goes. >> Yeah, no kidding. And it has I mean the stock has been impressive. I mean the counterargument is that Intel seeking investment from TCM is kind of a sound of profound weakness, not strength. I mean it suggests that they're really far behind technologically that they need their chief rivals to kind of help catch up. Effectively admitting that TSM has won the process of this technology war. I mean does this potential partnership risk turning a key American strategic asset into more of a junior partner dependent on foreign technology and capital? Well, look, I I can't remember ex the exact number, >> but if I was making roughly $50 billion worth of product, >> I don't care what the product is. >> I I I'm not I'm not a silly company. $50,000 million worth of stuff. Oh, it just happens to be the most complicated stuff humans have ever made in history. Oh, yes. What a what a weak what a weak silly company that that must be. I mean it, you know, they make the chips in my PC right now and it's, you know, powerful machine and they do billion. You got to look the number up yourself and get an accurate one. Billion dollars of it right now. Weakness. Billion dollars of the most complicated technology ever made. Don't underestimate that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Okay. I got to talk about this whole alpha rotation because I mean we talked about it recently about your own positioning kind of rotating out of those some US assets right and into UK and European value stocks is this hedge against the falling dollar but then you look at the key data from the UK it's quite concerning I mean we we have this reports of a black hole in public finances where tens of billions of pounds uh with significant tax hikes on the horizon how do you find value in a market facing such severe fiscal and economic headwinds is this not a classic value trap. >> Well, I've never been I never fallen into a value trap. I've been a value investor for 25 years. It seems to make me quite a lot of money. >> Um, so I don't know I don't know anything about a value trap. I mean, I think Warren Buffett does value, doesn't he? Did he in one? >> Maybe he has. >> So, you know, yeah, don't invest in value. Invest in in momentum. Invest in this stock I want to sell to you because because you you really need to buy this wonderful growth stock. Yes. Yes. Please take it from me and give me your fiat. Yeah. So, oh, value. You don't want any of that. No, no, no, no, no. I don't have any of that to sell. It's already been sold. So, you know, I I I'm I'm Value's been very very kind to me over a very long time. So, I don't believe in a value trap. Now, what you might say is this. If you look at an American company that makes paint, for example, and you look at an English company that makes paint, for example, exactly the same kind of paint, you'll find out you can buy it for about a third of the price, i.e. the company, or at least half the price. Well, why wouldn't you come and buy it then? Oh, funny enough, they are. Oh, funny enough, stocks go up when people buy them out like that. that, you know, the the British um stock exchange is getting strip mined of value and always already has been over the years. You know, there's hardly any any nice tech companies left cuz they've all been bought up and if they haven't been bought up, everybody thinks they're going to get bought be bought up. So, if you hold those shares and the world comes a knocking and says, "Oh, yes, Britain. Yes, I you're selling your stuff pretty cheap. We'll have that then. Thank you." >> And that's what's going on. Yeah. And now you need to get out of dollars because Mr. Trump wants dollars to come down so the trade balance is better and he wants interest rates to come down so there's economic growth and he wants interest rates to come down so he can maybe get you good midterms going. Yeah. So your dollar's coming down. Well, you need to be not in dollars, don't you? So you need to be somewhere else. Oh, you could be in gold. Oh, funny that. Oh, you could be in other precious metals. Oh, funny that. Or you could be in maybe stocks that are international. Oh, that's quite good. Maybe you could be in stocks that do the same thing as the ones you've got in America in dollars but are in pounds or yen or in whatever currency that isn't the dollar. Funnily enough, all the international markets have been going through the roof. And it's because American investors have been hedging their dollars if you want to put it that way. Because you know if you make paint in England and you make paint in Germany in euros and you make paint in India in rupee and you make paint in Japan in yen and you buy all those companies and they all have roughly the same PE well actually a lot cheaper outside. Yeah. You you you've you've hedged your currency, haven't you? And that's your major risk is your currency risk. >> Yeah. particularly now >> when the audience looks for opportunities. I mean, everyone's trying to pick something. We don't need specific stocks, but we do need specific stocks. Clem, I'm just kidding. But I mean, Europe is the investable one. Is it the large cap German exporters who are less tied to the domestic economy? Is it, you know, UK's energy and resource giants or or those deep value like we talked about those contrarian plays on the pattern, you know, the domestic facing consumer banking sectors? Well, you see, I I think there's a wonderful financial adviser out there, >> and he's in the White House, >> and what he says, listen very carefully, very, very carefully, and go, "What's the implication of that then?" >> And then you'll go, "Oh, that means paint in Japan is going to be highly valued. I'll buy some paint in Japan." It's as simple as that. I mean, you know, uh, however much he amazes me, he has made me a lot of money this year because I just listen to him and his and his guys and they say this these incredible things and people can't wrap their head around the implications cuz they're too extreme. Yeah. I mean, you know, that that stuff that tariff tariff stuff, what's the implications of that? What is that really about? When you get past the buzzwords, what is that really about? Yeah. And you'll get lots of investment ideas once you kind of really, you know, stop staring in the headlights like a deer and just take it as it, you know, just think about what think about what they said. Europe, you get on and deal with Russia. We've got a deal with Asia. Think about that. What What do you need to buy? I think I need to buy European defense stocks. Up they went. >> Yeah. M >> so the the the the raw material for investments it's all coming out the white house but a lot of people have a difficulty thinking about the implications of of what is going on there which are you know absolutely striking and will do all well like Intel >> I mean if you're going to have this conflict you're if you have to do lots of you know defense stuff in Asia well that's where all your chips are being made. So, oh well that's going to be kind of like difficult, isn't it? So, what's the implication of difficulties in Asia with your chips when all your value ad all your Nvidias and all your Facebooks and all your Amazons, it's all coming out of Asia. What's the implications? Well, what could possibly go wrong? Well, find out find out and go long that cuz they're they're going to step in and they're going to going to fix that like they fixed it. It was Gallium, by the way. Gallium was >> There you go. >> They said, "You're gonna We're gonna We need to sort gallium out because if we haven't got any of that, we're we're scuppered." >> Yeah. Well, what could why why wouldn't you have gallium? What could what could happen though? You wouldn't have gallium. Yeah. Well, hm. Oh, that thing. Well, think about that thing that would stop gallium being a thing that could come to America. And then think about that. Think about the implications of the other things. What about the other galliums? Yeah. What about people that mine the other galliums? What about people that have got gallium in Canada? Yeah. I mean, you know, you've got to go short Eskimos because of what you said about Greenland, >> for example. >> You're listening, huh? You listen carefully to all these. I like that. Um, >> heavily short Eskimos. I'm sorry, Eskimos. >> I was going to ask you about Well, not about Eskimos. I was going to ask you about what you're short later, but okay. Our time always goes too fast, but I need to quickly dedicate a segment to Bitcoin because you've had a unique and very accurate take on it. I mean, you exited your position at 100,000. The price is now holding but really struggling to hold 110,000. In a recent Forbes article, you introduced this new theory of the drainers, you call it, Wall Street governments and and these late comers who you say are the are here to extract fiat from the system, not to build it, right? I mean, is that what's happening? Is this this institutional adoption actually the Trojan horse that will ultimately suppress the price and prevent this next parabolic cycle? Well, if you believe in Bitcoin, you probably believe in the Bitcoin white paper. And what Mr. Nakimoto was getting on about this kind of, you know, sovereign person, this this anti- uh government thing, this this anarchistic money and the power of it is all in, you know, uh code is law. The power of the of Bitcoin is the fact it's it's decentralized and, you know, no government can stop it, blah blah blah. Well, if you believed in that, you'd want to be getting out now, wouldn't you? Because now it's all government and it's all Wall Street and it's not decentralized anymore and and all of a sudden it's going into the mainstream and it's going to blah blah blah. This the the thing that they talk about today and the thing that they say was going to make it go up is absolutely a antithetical to what Bitcoin's meant to be about. So, I just have a little bit of cognitive dissonance about that. But actually what I have real cognitive dissonance about is that you know the people that are embracing it they're they're predators. >> I mean they the the the uh list of colony of of felony felonious behavior that comes out of Wall Street is so long you couldn't even write a series of books about it. you'd you'd be on, you know, book 97 pretty quick. Yeah. And now they're the people that you're relying upon to make it go up and make you wealthy. Good luck with that. >> And you know, government government by definition goes around finds, you know, ways of extracting value out of things, you know, tax, more tax, even more tax, fees, more tax. So h how how how are they going to add value? They're not going to add value. I mean they're going to add stability perhaps. Maybe they will add value to the overall ecosystem because it would enable the next generation of blockchain things which I think is going to be exciting is going to come but the initial crypto currency money private sector money cuz that's what it is private sector money how's it going to be that the public sector are going to encourage private sector money don't know skeptical about that and um you know this is This should be I got out, you know, 9 months ago and I said this is near the top. Can't be bothered to wait for the next 20,000 cuz the top is going to is it will half from the top and maybe it's it's 100,000. It's, you know, it's it's not it's not accurate voodoo that I predict. I just it's just kind of levels and I'm happy here. I was in at 20. I'm out at 100. Thank you very much. Thank you for goodbye and thank you for the fish. And it's it hasn't, you know, everyone said, "You're a fool. You're an idiot." No, no, no. Um enjoy being poor and all that stuff. Uh, and here we are. It's is it's $8,000 higher. >> And it could go up, you know, if there's flashbang, it will go up. >> But it if you know, it maintains a level of flashbangness that we're getting out there in the world. It's it's it it could stick around here. >> What do you think the price at the end of this year? I mean, going into what do you think? I mean, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff in the backdrop here, but >> I I was putting hands down the back of my sofa and hoing out loose crypto and selling it today because, you know, I I I I was quite I had it in my heart that Ethereum would go on a run >> and it did. >> Yeah. >> And and I kind of exited Yeah. I exited most of most of it and then I thought, "Oh, I'll leave some hanging around. You never know. You never know." And I I I kind of like Fatali Buttering. He's, you know, he's cool. But I mean on the Ethereum there has been a recent little sell-off. I mean our last time we talked you characterized the bit the altcoin market is a signal for the end of the cycle and it was driven by novelty. I mean we saw ether we saw Salena sell off and and you know this it's been a pretty relative quiet and new token launches compared to the last cycle. >> What's altcoin market telling you? >> I I I like I like Binance Chain. That's the one that nobody talks about and it just keeps going up and I rate Binance and and I write I rate their coin. I don't have much of it. I've got shrapnel but you know um I the alt season socalled yeah happened last Christmas with the AI tokens that went ballistic. So it happened. You know quite often people say this is going to happen and it already happened. So it you could say it's already happened. You see, I don't think I'm 100% right about everything. So, I'm quite happy to have some Ethereum knocking around on the basis that if I've got it wrong, I'm going to go, "Oh, well, you know, that was nice. That was a that was a that was a nice car I just bought." So, yeah, I don't mind having positions that run against my general trend, but I don't want to have a big position. I just have to have small side bets. Yeah. So, I've had a side bet, few some few side bets knocking around and I and I liquidated some of them literally. Actually, it was this morning. I this is really getting tired but it could carry on doing this. The one to watch is strategy as as in micro strategy and that seems to be under a lot of pressure and when this does come down these um crypto reserve comp companies they are going to be the next um people to be hung upside down by their toes um for getting up to all sorts of monkey business. >> Interesting. So they will they will be the ones some of them not all of them but definitely some of them will be the FDXs of this cycle and >> and so so when you say strategy are you looking at that is is still upside. I mean the data showing I saw some this morning that the corporate treasury buying of Bitcoin has plunged 76% from its peak and the same data though does show retail friendly products like eyesshares Bitcoin trust pulled in 2.5 billion this month alone. How do you interpret this great divergence? You know, corporate and this retail demand, >> the the the um uh reserve strategy companies, >> yeah, >> they've been at these incredible premiums to the Bitcoin and that don't make no sense. Absolutely do not make any sense. And when it doesn't make any sense, I do not trust it. I don't care what people say. Oh, it's stranded Bitcoin assets and all that stuff. And I go, I can't I can't make up a a good narrative on this. I can make up some bad ones pretty easily. So, you know, if it if I buy a REIT with a load of skyscrapers in it, I'm going to get a discount. Generally, if I buy a company that's a trust that only buys farmland, it will be at a discount, not a massive premium. And you know, so I go and you know, the the king, the one that invented it that all the other people are metoing on is strategy. And you look at their chart and if that does not give you the the scares, um, good luck. You you're not a chartist at heart. That's a very bearish chart. >> Very, very bearish. And when it if we are to have the next crypto winter, which which I've been saying for 9 months, I'm out at the near the top. There'll be a crypto winter coming and it's going to be it's going to be, you know, those those uh reserve Bitcoin reserve companies and Salana reserve it. They're going to be absolutely fried and and that will be everyone will be running around, say, "Oh, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. No, no, I don't understand. They stole my money." even when they didn't when they were greedy. Yes, yes, yes. I'm going to make fortunes here. Yes, yes, yes. Then they're going to go, oh no, I was con this should it's not fair money. And and that's what will happen in the next crypto winter if there is to be one, which I believe 75% certainty. >> 75. >> It can't be far away. Yeah, it can't be far away. >> I mean, if it wasn't 75% certainty, I would have a decent position because, you know, if it's a 50/50, the the upside could be quite decent. But I I you know I 100 around 120,000. I was saying that years ago. I was saying that the last crypto winter we're going to go up to 120,000 from here. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then we did and we and I was in in back in and around there cuz in the same way I was out at 40,000 and then in lots of the alts and blah blah blah. I was out I I crypto winter. I was not out in the fur coat in the crypto winter. I was sitting on a sunny beach. >> Yeah. And then I got back into the bottom as I predicted. And then I said it'll go to 120,000. And when it went to 100, I thought Sanara, it's all over to you boys. But the next the prediction in the future rather than predicting the past part of this is that we will have another one and it will go back down to probably six between 40 and 60,000. And when it does pick up and I don't think I will, you know, I don't think I will because what I think will happen next, the real money will be, look, I'm going to fork here. I want to do a crypto project and the year is 2021. I could end up in jail >> really easily. I could fly into Florida to to, you know, go to a Bitcoin show and they could say, "Over here, sir. You're the person that's doing that crypto thing. Yes, we don't like that. Come this way. And I go, what have I done? I haven't done anything. Oh, well, we'll find out you. You have. Don't you worry. We'll come up with something. Our rule book is Yoic. Yeah. So, that stunted blockchain development. That stunted crypto. Yeah. And meant only the really really bravest or foolhardy would would play in in in that in that sandbox. Well, now Trump's come along and said crypto's cool. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Hey, SEC, you know, be nice. play nice guys. Come on >> now. I could I can literally go I can I can Oh, I'm doing going to do a a a Second World War tank game where you fire crypto and there's going to be elves and dwarves and they're going to pay in crypto and you're going to buy swords in crypto and you'll be able to sell swords and get crypto. Turn it into fear. Oh yeah, I can do all that now and I will not get stopped at the airport and thrown into jail for 800 years. So that is a basis, a foundation for an industry that has been stunted by overregulation. And the clock on on that future started months ago and there'll be loads of of incredibly paid tattooed um crypto developers with big beards going tappity tappity tappity right now. And the next cycle their stuff will hit the market and if you can catch it early, you'll make a fortune and I will. >> Well said. All right. It's been an incredibly valuable discussion. Let's bring it all together. I mean, a true contrarian view involves knowing what not to own. Uh, what's the single most vulnerable asset class, sector, or even country right now? What's the big short for the era that we're entering? >> You see, I'm really bad with shorting. I I I don't do shorting and I should because because I I can often see it coming, but I I just it it just you've got to invest in what you can sleep at night with. Doesn't matter the size of your position, right? I used to do funky little trades and that was all I cared about. Even though it was immaterial, it was just that particular game was so intense and engrossing that would get out of all proportion. But I can go and buy a copper mine and own half of somewhere in Zambzi and not care and not even bother to look at the price for more than every 10 minutes. But you know it you've got to be able to be comfortable with the positions. And I'm a long guy. I I can I can go long the most crash stock um that I' I think is a good investment and not bother about it. I can buy Intel when it's 19 bucks and everyone says it's the worst company in the world and I can load up on it and I I can sleep at night. So I stick with my psychology which is to be long on things that I believe will travel far and travel up and and so I don't really look at at at bad news because I I think we're in you your your viewers not going to like this. I think we're in for coming up soon. It's on it. It's already started, but you won't notice it for maybe 18 months. We're in for the biggest economic boom since they invented the steam engine. And there'll be untold opportunities to make vast sums of money if you can get on your front foot and see the big things coming. Like when Steve Jobs got back in at Apple, if you went, "Ah, Steve Jobs, he's a genius. Yes, yes, he's done genius things many times. I'm gonna buy lots of Apple at $1 a share. Yeah, if you had that simple idea, you would you'd be fabulously wealthy now. So, it's those ideas that you need to be working on now because this AI thing is absolutely titanic. Absolutely Titanic. And it it's like, you know, when they built the first beam engine to bring water out of mines, the guy that went, "Oh, hold on a minute. I could make a train out of this. Imagine what trains would do. Oh, I think I might invest in that. That's the situation we're in now. And that's what people should be focusing on. Not worrying about, you know, bad things happening. Not worrying about hyperinflation, not worrying about the death of the dollar, none of that stuff. Just find your spot for this huge economic boom. And if it doesn't happen, you won't be losing any money. >> But if you get it right, you will be making, you know, you will be making like the proverbible bandit. And that's my positioning because really what's kicked off with AI is I mean it it it's not enough to say it's a gamecher. It it's a it's as big as when they invented the steam engine and that was artificial muscles. This is artificial brain. This is going to >> Yeah. Well, we're seeing it play out with the evaluations in front of our eyes. All right. A clear actionable framework. Clen Chambers, appreciate you taking the time share your insights with the audience today. Uh so $4,000 $50 $4,000 gold $50,000 or $50 silver by the end of this year. >> 4 and a half thousand gold >> coming up. >> Yeah. >> And then it could easily go way way higher. But at I will then be sweating it at 4 and a half. All my all my spider um senses will be tingling and I I might rot I I'll probably rotate into copper. I'll I'll rotate into silver and I will probably rotate into platinum and palladium depending on what they've done in the meantime. Um but you know there's no reason why it couldn't go 6 7 8. It just depends on how ridiculous um you know geopolitics goes. So you know I'm I'm cognizant of that if everybody got round the table and said we're going to be sensible now. It wouldn't it won't stop copper going through the roof in the next 5 years. I mean literally going ballistic. So ultimately um it's going to there's going to be a transition into a copper cuz copper is going to be a big big big thing and and you wanted you wanted a tip. Let me give you an idea. Okay. Anglo-American is a big mining company. It goes back to the beginning of the days. So I think they still own debeers blah blah blah blah blah. >> Um and they've gone right. We're going to merge with a a um Canadian copper mine. I think they're called tech. I can't remember. Austral wreck whatever gigantic copper company. It's going to be one of the biggest mergers of all time. It's something like 50 billion or something. You know, it's a giant merger and they're going to create a juggernaut of a copper company. Well, why would they do that? I mean, hey, we're doing fine. We've got our, you know, we got a lovely company here. It's been going forever. Oh, you've got a lovely company over there. Yeah, you're doing fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where you merge because it's such a gigantic opportunity. You can't say no. And they're merging because copper is going to be a big big hairy deal. Like this merger is a big big hairy deal. And Anglo-American is still on the market. You can still go buy it. And you go look at what they're doing and then go why would they do that? Well, it's a giant thing coming up. It's a massive massive massive deal what's going on with copper. So as two really big copper companies, you say, "Oh, you know, okay, we've got to do this. This is the big one. Let's get together." You know, the fact that we might actually get a golden handshake and told to go away, that's that's secondary to the fact that we have to do this deal because what's coming up is so big. And you know, it's it's I said that to somebody. It's like being given an insider trade. You know, these utter insiders of the copper market and mining have gone, "Oh, we got we got to we just got to merge. I mean, it's we just have to do it because this thing is a is a monster. We just got to be the number one in it. >> So what else do you need to know really? >> Yeah, you keep bringing up copper. I mean even to prove more on your thesis, I mean Freeport Mcro Moruran has declared that force majour right in Grassburg in Indonesia. That's the world's second largest copper mine after that tragic accident. Goldman Sachs is now forecasting that this single event will flip the global copper market from a surplus to a deficit this year and has taken that estimate half a million tons off the supply chain through to 2026. So we can't go quick enough I guess to get supply on on on chain either. >> Well diversify portfolio of risk because I have um free bought McMor and as you might imagine and down it came 10% and up went my Antto found austa 10%. So it it it flattened out. So you can't >> you can't do better than having a diversified portfolio of risk >> and you know when you see the thing about copper I keep going on about it. It's so obvious. It's so absolutely obvious but the market hasn't been able to make the jump in its mind and but it will come in the same way as obvious Intel I mean I wrote about in February it took the best part of 6 months for the market to put two and two together and you know it will put two and two together very very shortly on copper or maybe not very short it might take it 18 months it might take a year they pay these companies they pay dividends they pay dividends come All right, my friends. I appreciate your time. It's pretty wild, but I'm going to give you a chance to plug that. What are you got a new YouTube channel? And I do encourage the audience to go back as well and look at our previous segments. They've been uh unrealistically realistic as they say. >> Well, I've been I you know, some people would say I've been very lucky. Um but I do practice a lot. So I I you know, Jeremy, you say, "So where can I find out more about you?" And the answer is where you can find out more about me on on Forbes cuz I've been writing for them since the last um millennia. Um seeking Alpha I do occasional pieces when I've got some stocks to that I think is obvious buys. Um um I've I've got this new website coming out called NUFFN which will be a platform. But I thought right what you want to do is you want to see that mad man somewhere else. YouTube Clemch Chambers Alpha I'm there. I've been doing it for a few weeks now having a regular fun and it is actually fun doing these things. And I just rant like you've been hearing me rant about various subjects and um That's good. Well, it's all there. It's on the record. Right or wrong. >> Yeah. Done. I like it. At least uh we know what to bring you back and call you whether you were right or wrong. Uh that's all the time we have. We appreciate it. Thanks again, Clint. >> See you soon, Jeremy. Thank you for having me. >> Yeah, of course, as always. All right, a David a data driven look at the forces shaping our market. For more in-depth interviews that go beyond the mainstream narrative, make sure to subscribe right here to Kitco News. I'm Jeremy Sav for all of us. Thanks for watching. [Music]
Clem Chambers: 2025 Was The Tipping Point, Here's What Happens To Your Money Next
Summary
Transcript
[Music] Hey everyone, welcome back to Kicko. I'm Jeremy Saffron. Let's get you updated on the market moving data this morning. The headline is that the consumer is still spending. Real consumer spending rose a solid point4% in August, beating ex estimates that combined with core PCE inflation print that just came in as expected at about 2.9% and it's giving a little lift to the US equities this morning. But digging into that same report, we see that the personal savings rate just fell to 4.6%, its lowest level this year. And this aligns with the University of Michigan's final read on sentiment, which fell to a disimal 55.1, with nearly half of Americans saying high prices are eroding their finances. So the key question this morning is the US consumer strong or simply running on fumes. And meanwhile, I mean, look over at the hard assets. That geopolitical risk premium is flashing red. Brood uh Brent crude oil rather is on track for its biggest weekly gain in 3 months trading near $70 a barrel on the news of Ukrainian strikes on Russian energy infrastructure and gold I mean we've got to continue to talk about it here 3770 on the spot side and silver about $46 right here to help us navigate these cross currencies a man who thrives in these complex environments. Last time we had you on too we uh talked about Intel. We'll get into that. Let's welcome market veteran and author Clem Chambers. Uh, good to see you, my friend. >> Yeah, it was great to be back. >> Particularly when I've been right earlier. >> Yeah, I know. And you I should have probably listened to you on the intel call. But before we do that, uh, because of a lot of our audience members, if they listen to you would have been up significantly in the past few months with some of that M&A discussion and, you know, coming into the other companies. But I want to start first with this realworld risk flashing on the screen today because I mean we have headlines that NATO has issued a direct warning to Russia stating it's prepared to shoot down aircrafts to violate its airspace. I mean your gold for war thesis is well known to our audience. We've talked about it here. Clem. Is this the specific type of catalyst that begins the process of pricing in your $5,000 gold target or are we just taking a breath here for a while? Well, you see, I'm very good at getting in at the bottom and then getting out in the middle. That's normally what I end up doing. And then it goes, you know, a lot further and I go, "Oh, oh, there. I'll better get the next one that comes along." So, in my mind, when when I first saw this, I thought, "Oh," and I draw some, you know, magic lines on the magic charts like like people like me do, and I went three and a half thousand. Yeah, that that's that's good. Oh, excellent. I'll do well for that. And then when it started, my lines started to say four and a half thousand. and and in my mind 4 and a half thousand I'm going to be starting waking up in the at 3:00 a.m. in the morning and checking the gold price at 4 a half th000 but in my marrow I you know it could easily do 10 but not easily but 10 is the kind of holy cow I should I I need to get out but four to five is is is near now and I I'm pretty I have high conviction that we're going to be getting there that's my opinion >> and silver so you've got that chunk you know that that what is it about a reasonably decent percent more on gold, but but silver could double. >> Silver could quite easily go to um you know, could go double from here. Could go to $100 an ounce. So, I'm tending more towards silver than gold because, you know, silver is a retail thing and retail is catching on to what gold has done. Now, gold has done it because gold is for war and countries are buying it and when you know the 800 pound gorilla buys, Wall Street gets out of the way, stops playing games and you know the countries are consuming it. So if the global insanity continues, you know, countries won't care what they pay for it. They will just lay it in and it could go a lot further than it's gone. But it is now getting a bit of a heavy asset. But silver, silver is very interesting because for a start they every year they only mine eight times more silver by weight than gold. So it's 8:1 ratio. >> Mhm. >> But it's 80 to1 in value. So the there's there's a kind of energy there because once the retail market moves that is a juggernaut. So that could easily you know kick uh silver to $100 an ounce. So there's a lot of excitement for me there. But if you want to go even further and and you know I spoke on your show about platinum palladium when they were below a th00and they're now like 1,400. >> Yeah. And they only do 200 tons of that a year. 200 tons. And platinum is not only a heavy metal, not only very important for all the sorts of things that are coming with um with energy demands from AI, it's also a heavy precious metal which is the sort of thing that you transact war in heavy valuable things like metals like gold, like platinum, like plating in. So if this temperature of global stress continues to go up, they will they will really move. And pla palladium was $35,000 only a few years ago, only like four years ago. You can see that on the chart. And to give you an idea of just how sensitive those guys are is America's have got sanctions all over Russia, left, right, and center is telling um you know Europe to not buy any Russian oil and telling India will slap on huge tariffs if they stop don't stop buying oil from Russia. But America is buying all the platinum and palladium that Russia will sell it. There's no sanctions on platinum palladium from Russia to America. is outside of the sanctions because they can't do without it and they only make 200 tons a year and they make it in Russia and make it in South Africa and they make it in America. >> So what's that telling you? >> So have they moved on then? I mean have they moved on from the gold trade and they're thinking okay it's getting a little pricey at this point and they're moving on to you know this this >> I don't think so. >> No I don't think so. I just think it's a matter of you go well you know we're getting the gold. We're getting the gold. What else is there? And you know for for for governments trading using um precious metals or reserve things as as that kind of government to government currency. >> Mhm. Then it's only gold, but it has to be heavy because you have to transport it and you you know you can't silver is way light per you know per one one ounce is $100 one ounce $35,000 is you know when it comes to packing it into submarines and sending it places like they used to do in the Second World War. Density is a key issue and really there's only one other precious metal with that density and that's platinum and potentially palladium too. So if the this ridiculous everinccreasing global geopolitical stress continues to go up and up and up, you know, it's only natural that that res mineral and metal reserves will become a thing because your supply chains destroyed. >> You can't just ring up South Africa, send us some of that, will you? No, you can't because there's, you know, in the way that kind of thing. So you have to have it onshore. So strategic reserves like oil, America's got massive strategic reserve of oil, for example, but you can't use that for money. Well, you can actually, but you know, it's it's um gold is the ultimate currency for war. And and you start to spread out into other things that you need strategic reserves of. Copper, um manganese, German germanmanium. I thought that's a flower, isn't it? But you know what I mean? all those exotic minerals um out out there and America is moving on them to start to get them to be manufactured, mined, refined um you know re re uh processed from waste because it realizes that supply chains if push comes to shove cannot be long and in the end you can really you don't don't mind getting it from Brazil cuz that's not such a difficult place to get it from, but you don't want to be getting it from Australia or Africa or from your enemy or sorry, your the person that you're having, you know, differences with. You you have to have it to hand and that is going to really moderate a lot of value um coming forward because if you look at rare earth, what was going on, China was going, "Right, you've started making rare earth on your own without us. We want a monopoly of that. So, I'll tell you what, we're going to undercut you and you're going to go bust because you work in a democracy and if we undercut you because we subsidize our rare earth to a point where you can't even get close to competing, you'll go bust. So, oh, Mountain Pass, you're doing it again, you've gone bust. Okay, that's what they were doing. So, the American government come out and said to Mountain Pass, which has a history of this sort of stuff happening, and said, "We'll pay you double. Don't care what the world price is. We'll pay you double what the world price is today." and guarantee you to take that off you because otherwise those guys are going to come in and put you out of business again by undercutting you and dumping on the market until you've gone bust which is probably going to be about a year. So we guarantee your manufacturer at 2x of what the world price is so you'll be in business and we will have that strategic reserve >> and that is the future of minerals. Well, I was going to ask you about this strategic reserve because I mean, you've said obviously gold is the currency of conflict because it's what nations demand when they need to buy hard assets like steel and tungsten. You just kind of talked about it, but Clem, I mean, break that down in today's high-tech military environment. Is that still true? I mean, are nation states more likely to demand settlement in semiconductor chips or these advanced technologies rather than gold or even silver in the crisis? Well, you know, you can't um at the end of the day, a currency is something that acts as a lubricant between transactions. Yeah. And we're not going to go back to barter. Oh, look, I I'll have 6,000 Nvidia chips if you send me five 15,000 tons of tungsten. I mean they that will be the sort of thing that goes on but ultimately it's a currency that everybody agrees and everybody knows and everybody has long has forever um trusted that that is what becomes the that's what gold is that's why gold is the currency of of war and the currency well I mean the IMF has got mountains of it for example because it is the understood tangible everybody wants it under any condition um money out there and and it's heavy money. You see, if you look at the history of money, you got three sorts of money. You got gold, silver, and and brass, bronze. Yeah. Gold goes in a pot and you bury it in the corner of your house. Yeah. That's what they used to do when your house burned down. You could find out where the corner of your house was and there would be your pot of gold. But you didn't go around with it. You didn't carry it about. You carried silver around and you carried that in a purse. Okay? And you would go, you know, you'd buy if you got a big enough bag, you'd buy a horse or or you know, you would coin would buy you dinner, a small coin or or might buy you an inn for a week or whatever. That was reasonable size transactional money, $100 bills. Yeah. The copper was pocket money, which is why you find so much of it, cuz it was in pockets and would fall out and that's what you buy your, you know, pint of. Yeah. And it's still the case that different monies has have different use cases. Well, gold is intergovernmental money for governmentalsized transactions when your bonds are no longer welcome. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, when you're at in a conflict and people go, "Oh, yeah. You could lose and that paper could be worthless. So, send me some of the yellow metal, will you? I'll put it in a sub. I'll send it your way." Yeah. and and and that is when gold goes from um nobody cares to when everybody cares. And when you look at peak times of peace like when the British sold half their gold reserve, why do you need gold for? It's not going to be a war. It's that's all over. It's, you know, end of history. Don't need gold anymore. And then up pops certain people um in government and all of a sudden goes, "Oh no. Oh no." And Poland says, "We just bought gold bars." like yes only a few months ago like the the Minister of Finance held up a gold bar and said we're buying gold. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah. And you've been right on some of these calls. I mean you you let's we got to get into copper. We some I know. Hey, Intel was a good one. But before we do that, I just got to ask you just on platinum because we I feel like we don't talk about it enough. And right now there's a lot of interest in it for the audience. I mean you've pointed out platinum's historical 1:1 price ratio with gold. the return that would mean, you know, imply kind of a price of what $3,700. Is the ratio still the best framework for valuing platinum? I mean, has the fundamentals kind of changed here? Because our audience understands the logic of contrarian investing is right, but the psychology is brutal. I mean, when you held your platinum position while it was deeply out of favor, how did you manage the psychological pressure of being early or or potentially wrong? What's your personal process for filtering out this daily noise? diversified portfolio of risk. >> Yeah, >> that's simple as that. You need to have a diversified portfolio of risk and you need to know why you own your the assets and they will come good most of them and the ones that don't come good well you won't care because the other ones will have more than made up for it. So, you know, the point is you have to have a thesis. I I tell this story a lot. About 20 years ago, I was up to my my my naval and a bit more in a cold river in Scotland panning for gold. And the gold gold miner says, "If you think it's gold, it isn't. If you know it's gold, it is." And that doesn't make any sense until you find lots of shiny mic that looks like gold and it isn't. And then you see a little nugget and you know it is. And that's the same with investment. If you think it's a good investment, it isn't. If you know it's a good investment, it is. If you go, why can't anybody see that? Like copper. Why is copper where it is today when there's not enough of it? Nowhere near enough of it. And and what's going to happen next is is way way way more demand for copper than people are even better consider. Right? Before AI came along and and set the world that they're going to boil the oceans, there wasn't going to be enough copper because of all the electrification. Okay? And AI's come along and probably multiplied that by four. I mean, people think, "Oh, they're going to need a little bit more electricity now with AI a little bit." I did this um I've got this YouTube channel I started cuz you're going to ask me at the end where they can find more about me. So, I thought I better start YouTube. >> Let's plug it now. Let's let's plug it now. >> Let's plug it. Plug it. But Musk, he's in this thing two weeks ago and he says, "Oh, yes. AI will consume all the energy of the sun and then all the energy of the galaxy." And of course, everyone will go, "Well, he's nut, isn't he? He's he's he's a bit, you know, he's a bit loose. No, he's the richest man in the world and he's the man with the most AI for the longest. Oh, and he happens to be the richest man in the world. Oh, coincidence, that one. Yeah. So, he's saying that he's going to use all the energy of the sun, not just all the loose energy on Earth, all the energy possible. And he's right because there's no limit on demand for artificial intelligence. And there's more importantly no second place. Is it in the nuclear energy kind of side? I mean, I got to ask you this AI. I mean, the AI takeover is interesting because what was it July 24th? I have a note here. Was the last time we had you on the show? You talked about and highlighted Intel as a key company in that US re-industrialization theme. I mean, the stock is is up huge since you recommended it. And we just got this report from the Wall Street Journal. The Trump administration's weighing a plan to reduce reliance on foreign made chips. And Intel is obviously seeking that investment from Apple and its primary rival of all things TSM. Nice call, men. Um, is there still room to go? But the second part of the question is, is this kind of the real path to success for American manufacturing is not through tariffs and isolation, but through these these new strategic and perhaps necessary, you know, collaborations with these global tech giants. You've got to give um Bliss a reason to rebuild >> because there's plenty of reasons not to. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. You go in and they say, "Oh, here's a huge pile of paperwork. Go fill that out. Oh, it only take you 3 years to finish that." You know, "Oh, I I'm going to go somewhere else. I'll build it in India. I I'll build it in China. I'll build it in somewhere else where they don't put me through hell for trying to make jobs." Right? So, they've had to turn that around and you're seeing that now. Intel has fabs all over America, fab chip fabrication um factories, and they cost billions and they take years to build. Okay. Everybody else's is in Singapore or Taiwan or China. Yeah. Intel's they got a load and and they're they're getting back up to speed to to where they need to be to do the stuff that people like Nvidia want need the world needs and they're about 6 months behind everyone else. So that's not so bad. And the other place they've got them is Europe. So you want to build a chip factory that can make an Nvidia chip? Well, you better start now because it'll take you four years and it'll cost you 10 billion. And oh, by the way, Intel can probably do it in a year and a half. and they've already built them all and they're already there. Everyone else is is kind of, you know, 10-minute rocket ride from Beijing. >> So, funny enough, there's no choice. They do not have any choice. >> Yeah. >> You cannot fight a war without those chips. Yeah. So, what are they going to do? They're just going to say, "Oh, we can fight a war, but don't don't look at the fact we got no chips or you supply them. Keep supplying us the chips to put in our planes to to defend ourselves from you." Not going to work, is it? Yeah. And the only place where you can make these chips, that stuff's owned by Intel. >> And if you're Apple and your chips have been made in in China, you're already moving your stuff to India, right? Well, I'm not sure India's got um any fabs. So, who's going to make your chips for you? And who's going to make Nvidia's chips when they're all made in Taiwan, which is, you know, where they the Chinese have got cliff climbing ships? You can look them up on the internet. Oh, I wonder why. Well, Taiwan surrounded by cliffs, isn't it? So, they've only got two beaches that could come ashore. So, they've built cliff climbing ships. How much notice do you want when you've got your chip plant in Taiwan? And it's going to be an AI. There is an AI war right now. Right now, there's an AI war. And it's all about the chips. And those chips that going to power American AI currently are made in Taiwan. Well, hello Intel. Yes. Yes. We didn't like you. Uh, we like you now. Yes. Yes. You want to come on over? Yes. How about you have some money? And by the way, hey Apple, have a chat with our guys at Intel. Yeah. The people who've got all the fabs in America. Yeah. Those guys. Yeah. Have a chat. Hey, Soft Bank. You want to be my friend? Put some money into Intel, will you? Hey, Nvidia, do something with with Intel, will you? Yeah. Yeah. You need them to make your chips for you. You don't want to carry on making them in Taiwan, do you? No. No. No. No. You need to be their friend. up it goes. >> Yeah, no kidding. And it has I mean the stock has been impressive. I mean the counterargument is that Intel seeking investment from TCM is kind of a sound of profound weakness, not strength. I mean it suggests that they're really far behind technologically that they need their chief rivals to kind of help catch up. Effectively admitting that TSM has won the process of this technology war. I mean does this potential partnership risk turning a key American strategic asset into more of a junior partner dependent on foreign technology and capital? Well, look, I I can't remember ex the exact number, >> but if I was making roughly $50 billion worth of product, >> I don't care what the product is. >> I I I'm not I'm not a silly company. $50,000 million worth of stuff. Oh, it just happens to be the most complicated stuff humans have ever made in history. Oh, yes. What a what a weak what a weak silly company that that must be. I mean it, you know, they make the chips in my PC right now and it's, you know, powerful machine and they do billion. You got to look the number up yourself and get an accurate one. Billion dollars of it right now. Weakness. Billion dollars of the most complicated technology ever made. Don't underestimate that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Okay. I got to talk about this whole alpha rotation because I mean we talked about it recently about your own positioning kind of rotating out of those some US assets right and into UK and European value stocks is this hedge against the falling dollar but then you look at the key data from the UK it's quite concerning I mean we we have this reports of a black hole in public finances where tens of billions of pounds uh with significant tax hikes on the horizon how do you find value in a market facing such severe fiscal and economic headwinds is this not a classic value trap. >> Well, I've never been I never fallen into a value trap. I've been a value investor for 25 years. It seems to make me quite a lot of money. >> Um, so I don't know I don't know anything about a value trap. I mean, I think Warren Buffett does value, doesn't he? Did he in one? >> Maybe he has. >> So, you know, yeah, don't invest in value. Invest in in momentum. Invest in this stock I want to sell to you because because you you really need to buy this wonderful growth stock. Yes. Yes. Please take it from me and give me your fiat. Yeah. So, oh, value. You don't want any of that. No, no, no, no, no. I don't have any of that to sell. It's already been sold. So, you know, I I I'm I'm Value's been very very kind to me over a very long time. So, I don't believe in a value trap. Now, what you might say is this. If you look at an American company that makes paint, for example, and you look at an English company that makes paint, for example, exactly the same kind of paint, you'll find out you can buy it for about a third of the price, i.e. the company, or at least half the price. Well, why wouldn't you come and buy it then? Oh, funny enough, they are. Oh, funny enough, stocks go up when people buy them out like that. that, you know, the the British um stock exchange is getting strip mined of value and always already has been over the years. You know, there's hardly any any nice tech companies left cuz they've all been bought up and if they haven't been bought up, everybody thinks they're going to get bought be bought up. So, if you hold those shares and the world comes a knocking and says, "Oh, yes, Britain. Yes, I you're selling your stuff pretty cheap. We'll have that then. Thank you." >> And that's what's going on. Yeah. And now you need to get out of dollars because Mr. Trump wants dollars to come down so the trade balance is better and he wants interest rates to come down so there's economic growth and he wants interest rates to come down so he can maybe get you good midterms going. Yeah. So your dollar's coming down. Well, you need to be not in dollars, don't you? So you need to be somewhere else. Oh, you could be in gold. Oh, funny that. Oh, you could be in other precious metals. Oh, funny that. Or you could be in maybe stocks that are international. Oh, that's quite good. Maybe you could be in stocks that do the same thing as the ones you've got in America in dollars but are in pounds or yen or in whatever currency that isn't the dollar. Funnily enough, all the international markets have been going through the roof. And it's because American investors have been hedging their dollars if you want to put it that way. Because you know if you make paint in England and you make paint in Germany in euros and you make paint in India in rupee and you make paint in Japan in yen and you buy all those companies and they all have roughly the same PE well actually a lot cheaper outside. Yeah. You you you've you've hedged your currency, haven't you? And that's your major risk is your currency risk. >> Yeah. particularly now >> when the audience looks for opportunities. I mean, everyone's trying to pick something. We don't need specific stocks, but we do need specific stocks. Clem, I'm just kidding. But I mean, Europe is the investable one. Is it the large cap German exporters who are less tied to the domestic economy? Is it, you know, UK's energy and resource giants or or those deep value like we talked about those contrarian plays on the pattern, you know, the domestic facing consumer banking sectors? Well, you see, I I think there's a wonderful financial adviser out there, >> and he's in the White House, >> and what he says, listen very carefully, very, very carefully, and go, "What's the implication of that then?" >> And then you'll go, "Oh, that means paint in Japan is going to be highly valued. I'll buy some paint in Japan." It's as simple as that. I mean, you know, uh, however much he amazes me, he has made me a lot of money this year because I just listen to him and his and his guys and they say this these incredible things and people can't wrap their head around the implications cuz they're too extreme. Yeah. I mean, you know, that that stuff that tariff tariff stuff, what's the implications of that? What is that really about? When you get past the buzzwords, what is that really about? Yeah. And you'll get lots of investment ideas once you kind of really, you know, stop staring in the headlights like a deer and just take it as it, you know, just think about what think about what they said. Europe, you get on and deal with Russia. We've got a deal with Asia. Think about that. What What do you need to buy? I think I need to buy European defense stocks. Up they went. >> Yeah. M >> so the the the the raw material for investments it's all coming out the white house but a lot of people have a difficulty thinking about the implications of of what is going on there which are you know absolutely striking and will do all well like Intel >> I mean if you're going to have this conflict you're if you have to do lots of you know defense stuff in Asia well that's where all your chips are being made. So, oh well that's going to be kind of like difficult, isn't it? So, what's the implication of difficulties in Asia with your chips when all your value ad all your Nvidias and all your Facebooks and all your Amazons, it's all coming out of Asia. What's the implications? Well, what could possibly go wrong? Well, find out find out and go long that cuz they're they're going to step in and they're going to going to fix that like they fixed it. It was Gallium, by the way. Gallium was >> There you go. >> They said, "You're gonna We're gonna We need to sort gallium out because if we haven't got any of that, we're we're scuppered." >> Yeah. Well, what could why why wouldn't you have gallium? What could what could happen though? You wouldn't have gallium. Yeah. Well, hm. Oh, that thing. Well, think about that thing that would stop gallium being a thing that could come to America. And then think about that. Think about the implications of the other things. What about the other galliums? Yeah. What about people that mine the other galliums? What about people that have got gallium in Canada? Yeah. I mean, you know, you've got to go short Eskimos because of what you said about Greenland, >> for example. >> You're listening, huh? You listen carefully to all these. I like that. Um, >> heavily short Eskimos. I'm sorry, Eskimos. >> I was going to ask you about Well, not about Eskimos. I was going to ask you about what you're short later, but okay. Our time always goes too fast, but I need to quickly dedicate a segment to Bitcoin because you've had a unique and very accurate take on it. I mean, you exited your position at 100,000. The price is now holding but really struggling to hold 110,000. In a recent Forbes article, you introduced this new theory of the drainers, you call it, Wall Street governments and and these late comers who you say are the are here to extract fiat from the system, not to build it, right? I mean, is that what's happening? Is this this institutional adoption actually the Trojan horse that will ultimately suppress the price and prevent this next parabolic cycle? Well, if you believe in Bitcoin, you probably believe in the Bitcoin white paper. And what Mr. Nakimoto was getting on about this kind of, you know, sovereign person, this this anti- uh government thing, this this anarchistic money and the power of it is all in, you know, uh code is law. The power of the of Bitcoin is the fact it's it's decentralized and, you know, no government can stop it, blah blah blah. Well, if you believed in that, you'd want to be getting out now, wouldn't you? Because now it's all government and it's all Wall Street and it's not decentralized anymore and and all of a sudden it's going into the mainstream and it's going to blah blah blah. This the the thing that they talk about today and the thing that they say was going to make it go up is absolutely a antithetical to what Bitcoin's meant to be about. So, I just have a little bit of cognitive dissonance about that. But actually what I have real cognitive dissonance about is that you know the people that are embracing it they're they're predators. >> I mean they the the the uh list of colony of of felony felonious behavior that comes out of Wall Street is so long you couldn't even write a series of books about it. you'd you'd be on, you know, book 97 pretty quick. Yeah. And now they're the people that you're relying upon to make it go up and make you wealthy. Good luck with that. >> And you know, government government by definition goes around finds, you know, ways of extracting value out of things, you know, tax, more tax, even more tax, fees, more tax. So h how how how are they going to add value? They're not going to add value. I mean they're going to add stability perhaps. Maybe they will add value to the overall ecosystem because it would enable the next generation of blockchain things which I think is going to be exciting is going to come but the initial crypto currency money private sector money cuz that's what it is private sector money how's it going to be that the public sector are going to encourage private sector money don't know skeptical about that and um you know this is This should be I got out, you know, 9 months ago and I said this is near the top. Can't be bothered to wait for the next 20,000 cuz the top is going to is it will half from the top and maybe it's it's 100,000. It's, you know, it's it's not it's not accurate voodoo that I predict. I just it's just kind of levels and I'm happy here. I was in at 20. I'm out at 100. Thank you very much. Thank you for goodbye and thank you for the fish. And it's it hasn't, you know, everyone said, "You're a fool. You're an idiot." No, no, no. Um enjoy being poor and all that stuff. Uh, and here we are. It's is it's $8,000 higher. >> And it could go up, you know, if there's flashbang, it will go up. >> But it if you know, it maintains a level of flashbangness that we're getting out there in the world. It's it's it it could stick around here. >> What do you think the price at the end of this year? I mean, going into what do you think? I mean, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff in the backdrop here, but >> I I was putting hands down the back of my sofa and hoing out loose crypto and selling it today because, you know, I I I I was quite I had it in my heart that Ethereum would go on a run >> and it did. >> Yeah. >> And and I kind of exited Yeah. I exited most of most of it and then I thought, "Oh, I'll leave some hanging around. You never know. You never know." And I I I kind of like Fatali Buttering. He's, you know, he's cool. But I mean on the Ethereum there has been a recent little sell-off. I mean our last time we talked you characterized the bit the altcoin market is a signal for the end of the cycle and it was driven by novelty. I mean we saw ether we saw Salena sell off and and you know this it's been a pretty relative quiet and new token launches compared to the last cycle. >> What's altcoin market telling you? >> I I I like I like Binance Chain. That's the one that nobody talks about and it just keeps going up and I rate Binance and and I write I rate their coin. I don't have much of it. I've got shrapnel but you know um I the alt season socalled yeah happened last Christmas with the AI tokens that went ballistic. So it happened. You know quite often people say this is going to happen and it already happened. So it you could say it's already happened. You see, I don't think I'm 100% right about everything. So, I'm quite happy to have some Ethereum knocking around on the basis that if I've got it wrong, I'm going to go, "Oh, well, you know, that was nice. That was a that was a that was a nice car I just bought." So, yeah, I don't mind having positions that run against my general trend, but I don't want to have a big position. I just have to have small side bets. Yeah. So, I've had a side bet, few some few side bets knocking around and I and I liquidated some of them literally. Actually, it was this morning. I this is really getting tired but it could carry on doing this. The one to watch is strategy as as in micro strategy and that seems to be under a lot of pressure and when this does come down these um crypto reserve comp companies they are going to be the next um people to be hung upside down by their toes um for getting up to all sorts of monkey business. >> Interesting. So they will they will be the ones some of them not all of them but definitely some of them will be the FDXs of this cycle and >> and so so when you say strategy are you looking at that is is still upside. I mean the data showing I saw some this morning that the corporate treasury buying of Bitcoin has plunged 76% from its peak and the same data though does show retail friendly products like eyesshares Bitcoin trust pulled in 2.5 billion this month alone. How do you interpret this great divergence? You know, corporate and this retail demand, >> the the the um uh reserve strategy companies, >> yeah, >> they've been at these incredible premiums to the Bitcoin and that don't make no sense. Absolutely do not make any sense. And when it doesn't make any sense, I do not trust it. I don't care what people say. Oh, it's stranded Bitcoin assets and all that stuff. And I go, I can't I can't make up a a good narrative on this. I can make up some bad ones pretty easily. So, you know, if it if I buy a REIT with a load of skyscrapers in it, I'm going to get a discount. Generally, if I buy a company that's a trust that only buys farmland, it will be at a discount, not a massive premium. And you know, so I go and you know, the the king, the one that invented it that all the other people are metoing on is strategy. And you look at their chart and if that does not give you the the scares, um, good luck. You you're not a chartist at heart. That's a very bearish chart. >> Very, very bearish. And when it if we are to have the next crypto winter, which which I've been saying for 9 months, I'm out at the near the top. There'll be a crypto winter coming and it's going to be it's going to be, you know, those those uh reserve Bitcoin reserve companies and Salana reserve it. They're going to be absolutely fried and and that will be everyone will be running around, say, "Oh, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. No, no, I don't understand. They stole my money." even when they didn't when they were greedy. Yes, yes, yes. I'm going to make fortunes here. Yes, yes, yes. Then they're going to go, oh no, I was con this should it's not fair money. And and that's what will happen in the next crypto winter if there is to be one, which I believe 75% certainty. >> 75. >> It can't be far away. Yeah, it can't be far away. >> I mean, if it wasn't 75% certainty, I would have a decent position because, you know, if it's a 50/50, the the upside could be quite decent. But I I you know I 100 around 120,000. I was saying that years ago. I was saying that the last crypto winter we're going to go up to 120,000 from here. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then we did and we and I was in in back in and around there cuz in the same way I was out at 40,000 and then in lots of the alts and blah blah blah. I was out I I crypto winter. I was not out in the fur coat in the crypto winter. I was sitting on a sunny beach. >> Yeah. And then I got back into the bottom as I predicted. And then I said it'll go to 120,000. And when it went to 100, I thought Sanara, it's all over to you boys. But the next the prediction in the future rather than predicting the past part of this is that we will have another one and it will go back down to probably six between 40 and 60,000. And when it does pick up and I don't think I will, you know, I don't think I will because what I think will happen next, the real money will be, look, I'm going to fork here. I want to do a crypto project and the year is 2021. I could end up in jail >> really easily. I could fly into Florida to to, you know, go to a Bitcoin show and they could say, "Over here, sir. You're the person that's doing that crypto thing. Yes, we don't like that. Come this way. And I go, what have I done? I haven't done anything. Oh, well, we'll find out you. You have. Don't you worry. We'll come up with something. Our rule book is Yoic. Yeah. So, that stunted blockchain development. That stunted crypto. Yeah. And meant only the really really bravest or foolhardy would would play in in in that in that sandbox. Well, now Trump's come along and said crypto's cool. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Hey, SEC, you know, be nice. play nice guys. Come on >> now. I could I can literally go I can I can Oh, I'm doing going to do a a a Second World War tank game where you fire crypto and there's going to be elves and dwarves and they're going to pay in crypto and you're going to buy swords in crypto and you'll be able to sell swords and get crypto. Turn it into fear. Oh yeah, I can do all that now and I will not get stopped at the airport and thrown into jail for 800 years. So that is a basis, a foundation for an industry that has been stunted by overregulation. And the clock on on that future started months ago and there'll be loads of of incredibly paid tattooed um crypto developers with big beards going tappity tappity tappity right now. And the next cycle their stuff will hit the market and if you can catch it early, you'll make a fortune and I will. >> Well said. All right. It's been an incredibly valuable discussion. Let's bring it all together. I mean, a true contrarian view involves knowing what not to own. Uh, what's the single most vulnerable asset class, sector, or even country right now? What's the big short for the era that we're entering? >> You see, I'm really bad with shorting. I I I don't do shorting and I should because because I I can often see it coming, but I I just it it just you've got to invest in what you can sleep at night with. Doesn't matter the size of your position, right? I used to do funky little trades and that was all I cared about. Even though it was immaterial, it was just that particular game was so intense and engrossing that would get out of all proportion. But I can go and buy a copper mine and own half of somewhere in Zambzi and not care and not even bother to look at the price for more than every 10 minutes. But you know it you've got to be able to be comfortable with the positions. And I'm a long guy. I I can I can go long the most crash stock um that I' I think is a good investment and not bother about it. I can buy Intel when it's 19 bucks and everyone says it's the worst company in the world and I can load up on it and I I can sleep at night. So I stick with my psychology which is to be long on things that I believe will travel far and travel up and and so I don't really look at at at bad news because I I think we're in you your your viewers not going to like this. I think we're in for coming up soon. It's on it. It's already started, but you won't notice it for maybe 18 months. We're in for the biggest economic boom since they invented the steam engine. And there'll be untold opportunities to make vast sums of money if you can get on your front foot and see the big things coming. Like when Steve Jobs got back in at Apple, if you went, "Ah, Steve Jobs, he's a genius. Yes, yes, he's done genius things many times. I'm gonna buy lots of Apple at $1 a share. Yeah, if you had that simple idea, you would you'd be fabulously wealthy now. So, it's those ideas that you need to be working on now because this AI thing is absolutely titanic. Absolutely Titanic. And it it's like, you know, when they built the first beam engine to bring water out of mines, the guy that went, "Oh, hold on a minute. I could make a train out of this. Imagine what trains would do. Oh, I think I might invest in that. That's the situation we're in now. And that's what people should be focusing on. Not worrying about, you know, bad things happening. Not worrying about hyperinflation, not worrying about the death of the dollar, none of that stuff. Just find your spot for this huge economic boom. And if it doesn't happen, you won't be losing any money. >> But if you get it right, you will be making, you know, you will be making like the proverbible bandit. And that's my positioning because really what's kicked off with AI is I mean it it it's not enough to say it's a gamecher. It it's a it's as big as when they invented the steam engine and that was artificial muscles. This is artificial brain. This is going to >> Yeah. Well, we're seeing it play out with the evaluations in front of our eyes. All right. A clear actionable framework. Clen Chambers, appreciate you taking the time share your insights with the audience today. Uh so $4,000 $50 $4,000 gold $50,000 or $50 silver by the end of this year. >> 4 and a half thousand gold >> coming up. >> Yeah. >> And then it could easily go way way higher. But at I will then be sweating it at 4 and a half. All my all my spider um senses will be tingling and I I might rot I I'll probably rotate into copper. I'll I'll rotate into silver and I will probably rotate into platinum and palladium depending on what they've done in the meantime. Um but you know there's no reason why it couldn't go 6 7 8. It just depends on how ridiculous um you know geopolitics goes. So you know I'm I'm cognizant of that if everybody got round the table and said we're going to be sensible now. It wouldn't it won't stop copper going through the roof in the next 5 years. I mean literally going ballistic. So ultimately um it's going to there's going to be a transition into a copper cuz copper is going to be a big big big thing and and you wanted you wanted a tip. Let me give you an idea. Okay. Anglo-American is a big mining company. It goes back to the beginning of the days. So I think they still own debeers blah blah blah blah blah. >> Um and they've gone right. We're going to merge with a a um Canadian copper mine. I think they're called tech. I can't remember. Austral wreck whatever gigantic copper company. It's going to be one of the biggest mergers of all time. It's something like 50 billion or something. You know, it's a giant merger and they're going to create a juggernaut of a copper company. Well, why would they do that? I mean, hey, we're doing fine. We've got our, you know, we got a lovely company here. It's been going forever. Oh, you've got a lovely company over there. Yeah, you're doing fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where you merge because it's such a gigantic opportunity. You can't say no. And they're merging because copper is going to be a big big hairy deal. Like this merger is a big big hairy deal. And Anglo-American is still on the market. You can still go buy it. And you go look at what they're doing and then go why would they do that? Well, it's a giant thing coming up. It's a massive massive massive deal what's going on with copper. So as two really big copper companies, you say, "Oh, you know, okay, we've got to do this. This is the big one. Let's get together." You know, the fact that we might actually get a golden handshake and told to go away, that's that's secondary to the fact that we have to do this deal because what's coming up is so big. And you know, it's it's I said that to somebody. It's like being given an insider trade. You know, these utter insiders of the copper market and mining have gone, "Oh, we got we got to we just got to merge. I mean, it's we just have to do it because this thing is a is a monster. We just got to be the number one in it. >> So what else do you need to know really? >> Yeah, you keep bringing up copper. I mean even to prove more on your thesis, I mean Freeport Mcro Moruran has declared that force majour right in Grassburg in Indonesia. That's the world's second largest copper mine after that tragic accident. Goldman Sachs is now forecasting that this single event will flip the global copper market from a surplus to a deficit this year and has taken that estimate half a million tons off the supply chain through to 2026. So we can't go quick enough I guess to get supply on on on chain either. >> Well diversify portfolio of risk because I have um free bought McMor and as you might imagine and down it came 10% and up went my Antto found austa 10%. So it it it flattened out. So you can't >> you can't do better than having a diversified portfolio of risk >> and you know when you see the thing about copper I keep going on about it. It's so obvious. It's so absolutely obvious but the market hasn't been able to make the jump in its mind and but it will come in the same way as obvious Intel I mean I wrote about in February it took the best part of 6 months for the market to put two and two together and you know it will put two and two together very very shortly on copper or maybe not very short it might take it 18 months it might take a year they pay these companies they pay dividends they pay dividends come All right, my friends. I appreciate your time. It's pretty wild, but I'm going to give you a chance to plug that. What are you got a new YouTube channel? And I do encourage the audience to go back as well and look at our previous segments. They've been uh unrealistically realistic as they say. >> Well, I've been I you know, some people would say I've been very lucky. Um but I do practice a lot. So I I you know, Jeremy, you say, "So where can I find out more about you?" And the answer is where you can find out more about me on on Forbes cuz I've been writing for them since the last um millennia. Um seeking Alpha I do occasional pieces when I've got some stocks to that I think is obvious buys. Um um I've I've got this new website coming out called NUFFN which will be a platform. But I thought right what you want to do is you want to see that mad man somewhere else. YouTube Clemch Chambers Alpha I'm there. I've been doing it for a few weeks now having a regular fun and it is actually fun doing these things. And I just rant like you've been hearing me rant about various subjects and um That's good. Well, it's all there. It's on the record. Right or wrong. >> Yeah. Done. I like it. At least uh we know what to bring you back and call you whether you were right or wrong. Uh that's all the time we have. We appreciate it. Thanks again, Clint. >> See you soon, Jeremy. Thank you for having me. >> Yeah, of course, as always. All right, a David a data driven look at the forces shaping our market. For more in-depth interviews that go beyond the mainstream narrative, make sure to subscribe right here to Kitco News. I'm Jeremy Sav for all of us. Thanks for watching. [Music]