Gold Goes Vertical. We Hunt for Value (Ben Richards)

Summary

• Gold Momentum: Strong bullish backdrop with persistent buying and tight dips; focus shifts from producers to developers/explorers as beta expands.
• Gold Stocks & M&A: Pitched exposure via Bellevue (BGL) and Ora Banda (OBM) on production growth, plus takeover optionality centered on Antipa (AZY) as preferred target in the Paterson.
• Oil & Gas: Energy is under-owned; Karoon (KAR) highlighted after site visit with improving governance and leverage to an oil upcycle.
• Coal: Stanmore (SMR) flagged as standout on cost discipline and cycle leverage, with signs of tightening supply supporting medium-term coal pricing.
• Mining Services: Emeco (EHL) pitched for cash generation, potential capital returns and takeover interest; Imdex (IMD) for operating leverage to renewed drilling budgets.
• Capital Markets Play: Euroz Hartleys (EZL) positioned to benefit from a robust resources raising cycle, with optionality from wealth management scale and potential M&A.
• Royalties & Uranium: Red Hill Minerals (RHI) seen as undervalued Onslow royalty pure-play with dividend capacity; NextGen Energy (NXE) preferred uranium name with catalysts and strategic interest.

Transcript

JD, you got a preferred pick for gold M&A? >> I do have a preferred pick. >> Yeah, I think this is the best kept secret on the ASX, this one. My my gut feel is to pull some chips off the table, but enjoy it while it lasts. >> I'm exhausted. Uh JD, Ben, I'm like the market is moving so fast pace. I feel tired just keeping up with it. It's hard to It's It's almost hard to lose money in this market at the moment. things are that like fun and crazy and awesome and we're we're we're kind of hooked in a way that um only happens in a bull market. But even if it is only for a period of time, who cares? It's fun. We I'm I'm I'm loving it. Are you loving the bull market, Ben? >> We are. It's um it's always good to be a small caps fund manager in a small caps bull market. Um especially when you do resources and and gold is going vertical by the day, it seems. So now it's good market conditions. hopefully can make some hay while the sun shines. >> Could you imagine how like how much you would be hating life if you didn't cover resources as a small cap fundy? And I know there's heaps of them that do that. Like don't know why. >> It's it's a big risk in the Aussie market, I think. Um to kind of ignore a 30% plus chunk of the market. Um but yeah, you do see a lot of the East Coast guys tend to shy away from it. Unfortunately, it's working while tech and a lot of the other things that uh dominate the small cap universe are working as well. But for how long, it remains to be seen. >> What's your kind of natural positioning to it, Ben? Like personally, for instance, I I'm kind of scared, you know, it it kind of terrifies me and my my gut feel is to pull some chips off the table, but enjoy it while it lasts all the same. What's your kind of natural uh feeling toward this type of market? >> Yeah, I think that's probably the right approach. Having said that, I think um if you look at a lot of the the flows into the small end of the market, that's kind of come full circle since sort of 2022 when we saw interest rate rises. Money came out of small caps and micro caps particularly. Um and although it's kind of small outperformed large in the last few months, there's still a fair bit to go in that catch-up trade uh to kind of get back above on a on a multi-year basis. So, bit of retail returning to the market, but I still don't think we're quite at the the heady days of um maybe peak kind of 2020 2021 where you had uh felt like every capital raising was going up and you had to be in everything and and your your taxi drivers making money, your neighbors making money, and yeah, it's a um that was a crazy time, but I don't think we're quite there yet. >> My taxi driver is making making money. Yeah, I can I can hear him just like Uber. I could see him watching like, you know, financial YouTube videos as he's >> wh driving. >> Well, as he's driving my Uber. Yeah. >> I had a friend sent me a picture inside of his own in Uber in Singapore and he was the Uber driver had the Uber screen plus the markets that he was trading and the gold price all in one. So, I don't know what that tells us. >> I don't know either. I should probably point out to our our audience who might be unfamiliar with your your voice, Ben Richards is your name of of Senica. um two years into running the fund there, like really really impressive results in that in that two years. So congratulations to you, mate. Um I know you're a bit of a market animal and uh you're you've you've you're across a lot of the the names in our sector. We're going to talk about a lot of the gold companies, the small cap golds, the gold miners, energy stocks, mining services stocks, and we're of course going to cover the news of a week. This is a weekly rap. JD, what have we got to start? >> Mate, we've got heaps. I reckon the logical place to kick off, like you said earlier, Ben, is gold. So, gold smashed through US4,000 bucks an ounce, hit 6,000 Australian dollars an ounce, which is just something to behold. And there's so many interesting pockets of the market, Trav. I know I think we should start here with with Tether. I know you did a bit of reading on on what Tether's done and everyone's focused on the the central bank aspect and has that's undoubtedly been massive since um since Russia Ukraine really kicked off, but the the presence of Tether and the amount of gold they're buying I don't think is fully appreciated. >> Yeah, it's it's all just an expression of the same thing. And and what is that? Like, you know, it's like everyone's kind of awake to the the the the debasement that is clearly clearly underway. And it's funny like things are gradual and then all at once. Um and I think Tether's just like an expression of that from people who uh well you know yeah people who have been thinking thoughtfully about the way the world transforms over time because they're entrenched in the monetary system. And if you people kind of get confused when you talk about Tether and you talk about like Tether's relationship with gold because they think it's all about Tether gold. It's not. That's like a very like small kind of part of the equation here. Talking about Tether the company. Tether the company which is a a cash machine and people hate when I say that. I don't care. It's true. There's no water. I don't care. There's attestations like um so so you Yeah. If you just look at like what the attestations for Bio point out that Tether has uh actually, you know, purchased of gold in in the last 6 months. So this is in the first half of the year, it's 19 tons of gold. Um 15 of that came in the in the second quarter of that first half. So like dialing up massively on the gold like purchases specifically. And that's like comparable with what the you know world gold council's numbers attribute to China's own central bank in the same period. China's own central bank in that first six months bought 20 tons of gold or tether bought 19 and is dialing up faster. Um >> that that like needs to be underlined. That's astounding. >> Massive. Massive. Now, now China like has many different sources and they're not all kind of captured probably by the World Gold Council and um maybe yeah, maybe there's like much more than than is attributed from their survey to central banks because you don't always get the right number, but but I think it's a pretty pretty important point. Tether now has more gold, you know, bullion reserves than Australia's own central bank by by two tons. Um, and a couple couple weeks ago, I think I think like don't know if people missed this or not, but like Tether the company, they raised 20 billion at a US $500 billion valuation, making it um like the the most valuable or the second most valuable private company in the world, which is a a a staggering staggering kind of thing to point out. Um, and that that $20 billion, it's not like they needed to raise that money because they you can see in the in their addistations, they actually paid out $7 billion at dividends in the six months before that and they've paid consist like pretty big dividends in the years before they didn't need the cash. But it's in my mind, I'm pretty sure it's the the money you raise and you place it to to inst public. This is the, you know, the you get ins or whatever set at some price and then and and the IPO comes at a higher price. So people are are up on on the listing day one happy days. Um it's the raise you do before the the public listing. >> Yeah, this is not an unprofitable tech company by by any stretch of the imagination, but >> cash flow is not an issue. >> I think to tie tie it all together, we're at a super interesting point in time in the gold market. >> Even even before that, where's that $20 billion going? Right. So they raised $20 billion. They didn't need the money. Where is like So they have to they have to deploy that $20 billion. Where is it going? Buying gold. It's f it's clear as day. They're buying they are buying so much gold. Like gold is getting bid at every price. There is like there's no dip that doesn't go up because you've got like you you've just got insane insane support from um huge pools of capital that are rotating into into real assets specifically gold because the like you know the the the debasement of fiat currencies is is uh it's kind of happening all at once now. People are cleared on and they're positioning accordingly. you what do you think Ben? >> Yeah well I think you've done some good work Trav looking into Tether and um yeah obviously a massive player now uh love them or hate them but I think it's interesting that they're pivoting to gold physical assets like royalties um is another one they're kind of chipping away at through through elemental. So yeah, I don't know what that says for kind of um the prospects of of crypto as a store of value or if it's or if it's more just a a bullish thing for gold, but yeah, this price indiscriminate buyers like I was talking to a broker this morning who was saying I was saying, "Oh, gold looks um you know, pretty hot here at US 4,000 and they were saying I just don't see what changes though in terms of um yeah, this price indiscriminate central bank buying like what's going to be the catalyst to actually to actually stop that." So yeah, it's an interesting uh interesting juncture really. >> So So how do you think about putting money into the the gold names out there and we'll rattle through a bunch of the the ones that pre- reported on on the quarterly announcements, but are you more inclined to to take chips off the table at the moment? >> Well, I think it's just about how you play it. So there's the producers and the unhedged producers which have kind of been the first to run and you know we we were on Genesis and uh one or two others but that's kind of the the poster child I suppose and then I think now we're starting to see money flow down into the developers that haven't really moved as much uh and maybe the explorers but yeah there's probably multiple ways to skin the cat like we quite like some of the services names and the the trickle down beneficiaries of a higher gold price that aren't just necessarily buying your favorite unhedged minor which already trades at a you know premium valuation. >> Well, why don't we start running through some of these names. Trav kick us off with with Capricorn mate. >> Mixed mixed week for Capricorn. Um not not because of what they reported like you know was a record c for ounces record throughput for fresh material. Um color winter expansion construction fully ramped up now. Um and yeah like they you know reserves now four million ounces I saw. So so why the mixed week on the on the share price? Well, it came came as a result of the the the bump for WAR shareholders. Um, which we'll get to, we'll talk talk bit a bit about bit more about that, but what was in effect like a $20 million bump. The immediate reaction was a $225 million fall in uh Capricorn's market cap, which always always makes sense, right? But, you know, there's a relative AR that kind of happens in short-term generations. Anyway, they recovered all the gains and and Capricorn's now $14 stock for the first time as you can see on our focus chart, mate, right behind you. How good is Focus by Architect, mate? been loving it. Loving using the the ability to do screens, loving the heat maps, loving just feeling like a pro while observing the market, reading the market, making trades. It is an institutional platform, retail price. Link is in the show notes if you if you want it. 10day free trial by the way, >> mate. Couldn't have said it better myself. Institutional grade product at a retail price. Check out Focus, the platform by Market Tech, today. >> It's even like money of mine is on there. How cool is that? >> 14 bucks. >> Yeah. 14 $14 stock. It's pretty pretty remarkable. Uh is it one is it a name you've owned in the past, Ben? >> Not it's um it's always had that kind of management premium. Everyone knows that they're good operators. Uh they've had, you know, Kylo Winders going well. They've obviously got Mount Gibson growth project kind of coming online. So, it's easy to kind of extrapolate the the current um production forwards at a you know reasonable level of confidence. So, you can kind of understand why it trades there. I would say it's probably one of the two or three names that you do get the the generalist fund managers piling into um that can do gold. Uh but yeah, here on a 6 billion market cap um it's kind of I mean what what more can can go right for for Capricorn is kind of my argument. Or even if even if they continue to do well and gold continues to do well, is it the best way to express that view uh in the current market? So, we don't own it. >> I thought the same at five bucks, but I think but I to I totally see your point, Ben. >> Speaking of another one that like has always just been too expensive for me to ever think there's an opportunity and then it just continues to defy gravity. Emerald um but in a week where God went bananas, Emerald Emerald were pretty flat. Another kind of disappointing production number. So, Emerald Emerald has um yeah, maybe had some disappointment in relation to production. They've talked about this for for you know period of like 10 I want to say like nine 10 months now. Um I I think I think this quarter will be the last of the very disappointing quarters but the the rest of the pit what's to come isn't going to be as strong as what's been mined before and because Emerald's one of those companies that they never provide like uh like threeyear guidance. It's like it's very shortdated guidance. So whether or not like the market's expectations of what's to come out of Okvau are the right expectations uh or or not yet like all of that still to play out. So they've been being thrown around, you know, you know, in a in a week where gold is absolutely sorted. Emerald's pretty flat. Hopefully the um yeah, the worst of the woes at at Oval for a brief period of time are over. But but um you know, the the best part of the pit's always the beginning. >> Yeah. Well, three production downgrades in a row I think in the last three quarters. um they reckon they're going to get into that or in December, but it's always um you know downgrades never come in in ones, but three I think it's just under a three billion market cap. It's been a bit left behind as you said. So, it's kind of to the point where it's maybe interesting, but it's quite interesting to stack it up versus Capricorn. I think like you've got a currently about 100 ounce 100,000 ounces peranom going to about 300 350 if you include um the Cambodian growth project Memot and Dingo range in WA. So you can kind of see like this is probably the first time that we've looked at emerald in in recent times and thought it's potentially value, but you're also it's Cambodia. It's what's the jurisdiction discount relative to say a Capricorn and now you've got potential production issues. So maybe cheap for a reason. Uh don't own it, but it's definitely on the watch list. >> They they they've also got the like a 20% stake in Golden Horse. Like I want >> Yeah. And and I mean like Emerald's an interesting minor in that they they can take a view on a like a a smaller resource than most miners will and actually build a plant and develop it. Like how many miners are willing to build something on a you know 500,000 ounce reserve and but but like that's you know emerald will. Um so yeah I don't know I don't know if golden horse is like a a more curious way to play play you know Emerald's growth story. Yeah, potentially. It's just kind of one of those ones in the bucket of um WA developers, explorers. Um probably can't own them all, but yeah, looks looks sort of interesting. >> Well, we'll go on to another one now, which is a pretty hotly controversial one, and I know we we had a bit of a chinwag about it recently, Ben, but Belleview Gold. So, I I'll run through the the highlights from the quarter. They announced free cash flow before hedgebook deliveries, which kind of rings out as a bit of a number, but you need to get into the details a bit. That number was 33 million, but they delivered nine and a half thousand ounces into hedges that were actually meant to come over the following couple quarters. So, the the gist of what they're doing is just trying to smooth out the ups and downs that we're going to see over the coming quarters, having had that uh capital raise and pushing out of the the hedgebook throughout 2025 already. On the physical side of thing, they produce 30,000 ounces. And there were some records in there, record production processed uh volume, 300,000 tons at 3.2 grams per ton. 3.2 g per ton sounds a lot lower than the the numbers we had years ago expected from Belleview. But, you know, things evened out in the wash here because the tons were a bit higher than than anticip anticipated. But ultimately 30,000 ounces coming out and guidance is about 140,000 ounces for the year. We're going to expect kind of stronger numbers going over the next quarters. When you when you sort of take this all into account, Ben, are you are you disappointed? Are you happy with how things have progressed? I mean, they've they've had a bit of a run lately, you know, and they they hadn't done so. They hadn't followed the rest of the Goldies for quite a while there. Yeah, I think um you can probably bucket the goalies into ones that have just been following the spot price and ones that haven't. And for the ones that haven't that have just been kind of trading sideways, Belleview's one pretty interesting one. We own a a small position in our uh small caps fund at Senica. It's probably just a production story. So, I think um yes, they're probably not making that much money if you strip away all the head if you include all the hedges, but on a look through basis, I just think uh if you've got a high-grade asset in WA with good scale potential, um yeah, you mentioned 140, but probably you can squeeze a bit bit more production out of this asset in time. I think they're kind of still looking at that 150 to 200 uh,000 ounce peranom range. So yeah, just think the strategic value can't really be ignored. Um it's interesting that nothing's happened yet and the stock price has kind of run. So I don't know if that changes the dynamics per se, but yeah, still think um just the strategic value that you could get an offshore acquirer or a local having a good look at it. So yeah, don't mind it for a small position there. >> Yeah, it's potentially telling. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they they were pretty public about a public process. So but but you know like heck things things are dynamic, things change, gold price changes and when you underperform everyone else on a relative basis then you kind of are more more attractive on a relative basis. Um, but then at the same time like it's all about it's all about volume for for Belleview because the hedgebooks the overhang I think they've done like a really clever thing in in in pre-delying like in in this quarter. You need to address that hedgebook with maximum volume at this point in time as as is possible and um yeah like hopefully things keep keep turning in the right right direction. Yeah, to totally people hate those those shocks to the to the downside to the upside they're all right but to to to the do the best of their job and and smooth that out is is a good thing I think if we go to another one that's had a couple uh disappointing quarters of late Ourander and I know again Ben you've you've held this one in the past now the numbers looked way better when you compare them to the previous quarter because the previous quarter was a bit of a stinker and it was below expectations this one still came in a touch below expectations at, you know, call it 31,000 ounces produced, but free cash was 38 million. So, they're in a a healthy position. And the the part that stuck out to me, curious to hear what you think of this, Ben, they paid 7 million bucks in put option premiums. So, they've locked in the option to sell, call it 33,000 ounces in the back half of next year at 5,000 Aussie. Now, that that's an interesting type of risk management. It's not the the classical hedgebook way that has been the traditional way in which goldies have have played this. But when you come at it from a a generalist perspective, looking at at gold names, is that something you're you're a fan of or not so much? >> It's a bit of a curious one. I mean, the exact hedging strategy is probably um your boys's department in the sense of it's one for the bankers to to get the best bang for buck and maybe if they think the the put options are like yeah hedging the the downside tail risk um and then other than that you leave it unhedged like I think it probably makes sense. Would I be doing it? Probably not in this environment but you know that's always famous last words uh in a sense. So yeah, I think our abander it's it was a touch below, but the trajectory is still uh pretty attractive. You're talking yeah 140 to 155 guided for FY26. Um we've actually never owned this one kind of on its first runup. Uh everyone kind of banged on about the, you know, how good management is and how it was, you know, a simple production growth story, all those things that kind of well known in the market now. Uh it's kind of one that was always comped to like Pantoro um both on that 100,000 ounce with growth potential largely unhedged um way to play gold except for when yeah Orabander pulled back a fair bit and it basically traded um down to kind of a more peer average value valuation. Um and that's kind of when we took a look at it when it was probably 70 or 80 cents. Um, we met with with Luke Cray and I kind of can see why everyone um backs him in so hard, pretty impressive operator and he just pretty clearly stepped through like what they're what they're doing to deliver that growth with reasonable confidence I suppose. Um, and yeah, I think they've got a bit of optionality there at the two underground mines. So yeah, >> continue to like that one. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's sort of well said optionality and expectations as well. I mean, they chucked in the line that they are forecasting to improve quarteron quarter throughout the the rest of this financial year. So, I think they're going to kind of be held to that. Obviously, four times 30,000 ounces doesn't get you to your 150 number. So, need a bit of an uplift in the in the back after this financial year. It's interesting you comp them to to Pantoran. I think like one observation I've had in like the yeah the gold the gold bull market to date is like you know yesterday's underperformers are today's outperformers and and vice versa you know like the um when or was outperforming panto is underperforming or when or underperforms pento outperforms similar with like uh yeah like a vault genesis or whatever comp like um even like the recent recent like larger producers or mid mid-tier producers that have outperformed to be like a vault a vault and and West Gold and they were underperforming pretty substantially in the preceding kind of 12 months and um yeah like this mean reversion is a thing and gold price goes up the higher cost producers also experience more to talk in environment and um and it's not a bad strategy to kind of try and screen for the the goldies that maybe haven't had the greatest performance of late sometimes just in this kind of market >> yeah I think vault was a classic example where you know it was the cash vault and no one no one never going to pay the cash I can't believe I've never heard that. That's great. >> I mean, for for all the financial analysis and all we end up doing is just screening through these names and oh, this one hasn't run yet. It's got to be next to go. Like, it's a bit simplistic. >> It's funny like it is kind of you can be a bit simple and dumb, can't you? Like, yeah, we we we literally run a screen the other day just on uh yeah, like gold juniors with greater than 600,000 ounce resource and a market cap less than 60 million bucks and we're like, let's just buy three of these. >> They look pretty cheap, eh? We'll see what goes. I think we got one one more great. Did you want to chat about Greatland, Trev? I am c I actually I've observed um I've observed your discourse well your popularity amongst the the great gold uh shareholders like their old >> is it isn't it interesting I mean they're I think they're as far as like like retail community shareholders go I've got a real soft spot for the greatland ones um they're they're all very like polite and civil and they they want to convince you of of their thesis as opposed to like antagonize good on you great shareholders I think it's like the the London kind of well the the English politeness that kind of shines through. Um, but you've antagonized them because of your bullishness that they're going to buy Antifa. Has anything changed? >> Nothing's changed. Well, actually, no, things have changed. Greatland has recovered. So, the equity value is higher and the cash is building. I think it's now 750 as of the last quarter. Uh, so if I think you know what's changed in the last few months, I would say it's actually more likely that they've got more firepower to do a deal. Obviously Trab's referring to Antifa Minerals, AZY, which we've we've been pretty public on that we think is a is a takeover target. Um, but yeah, more broadly, I think it's just a um a question of can can you get find those ounces that actually have a meaningful path to produ realistic path to production in the next in the current cycle, I suppose. Um, which maybe explains why some are running and some haven't, but yeah, still think that deal gets done. Um, it's interesting you mentioned the Greatland shareholders because it's just it's just always interesting to see what criticisms you kind of get to test your own thesis. And yeah, there's been nothing there that really makes us um concerned when you when you're copying things like, oh, maybe they'll do it at some point, but they definitely don't won't do it now. and just things like that from, you know, and some, you know, you get accounts coming back at you that only have ever posted about Graland and it's like, well, I'm not sure who who this is anonymously on an anonymous media platform, but yeah, it's just it's always interesting to kind of get the the feedback from all kinds of um people across the market. >> Yeah. So one of the one of the interesting theories I don't know where we heard it or we wrote about it but um is there a potential that greatland very well could actually do a deal with Cyprium uh somewhat in the neighborhood you know spare milling capacity capability to do something with copper uh is that a theory you've kind of and also by the way like much faster permitting ability versus um antipper where your timeline's a bit bit longer have you have you really thought through that potential as an alternative >> a bit. I mean, there's not too many other projects around there. Like, I'd say Antiper and Crium and then there's probably only stage ground of any meaningful scale. Um, I think with Cyprium, it's probably a case of they've got their own plans. They've pretty I I doubt they'd be too open to maybe I'm wrong, but I think they, you know, they just raised a big chunk of equity and kind of seem to be trying to do it themselves. Um, and it's probably more the copper angle, so you can never rule anything out. But I think the key with Antipra is it's it's actually closer than, you know, Havon um, distance- wise, I believe. And it's gold dominant. It's kind of the same um, you know, same as they've already got, but just kind of extends, I suppose, the the scale and and confident mind life that they can put together the market. and you know they're trading on probably a discount many would say to to the ASX peers I would argue because of that um kind of mine life and and development uncertainty. Uh so yeah I think the other thing with Antipra is it's actually covered under the the existing Tela Radius uh native title I believe. So potentially that could accelerate permitting as well if if there was to be a deal done. Um, so yeah, I mean it it's to us it's probably the the cleanest or the clearest gold takeover. Like there's a lot of, you know, your astrals have always come up in kind of takeover discussions of, you know, decent scale resource in a region where there's a lot of milling capacity. Um, or a lot of mills at least I should say. Um, so there's definitely a few ways to play that kind of M&A angle, but yeah, AZ still our preferred pick. JD, you got a preferred pick for gold M&A? >> Gold M&A. I I do have a preferred pick. Sunstone. >> Ah, ding ding ding. >> Yes, ding ding ding. Um, the company's been pretty pretty open about pursuing various uh various forms of M&A/jint venture arrangements, but we're talking Ecuador here, copper, gold, early early stage like not not such a demanding market cap, you know. So, that that's my one. Have you got one? >> Uh yeah. Ding ding ding. Emerson. Um uh be well like been long since the JV partner was taken out by Panaffrican Gold. Um Emerson was was 6 cents. It's now 24. Gold's moved a a long way, but but the Yeah, I mean Emerson put out this um Emerson's like a it's got a funky kind of JV relationship with the JV partner. It's kind of tricky to wrap your head around, but effectively, you know, there there's an earn-in relationship. There's a 6% gross royalty on certain deposits, and then there can also be in some when some things are classified as a larger mine that becomes a 40% contributing interest. Now, why does all this matter? Because uh early next year, MSM will receive a like a an $18 million payment um from from Panaffrican, who's the the new operator of a of a mill that's in production there. It's everything's commissioning is going really well there. Um it's just much cleaner to clean up that that joint venture. Uh clear synergies. The big attractive thing is the fact that with Emerson has a has this white devils project. They put out a scoping study on that. You run that at spot gold today and um it's a very very attractive project at spot gold. There's no no doubt. And it will displace yeah feed at the at the uh nobles meal like that much much earlier in the mine plan. I feel like Panaffrican are going to try and deploy as much of their cash that they're making in Africa into Australia as they possibly can and Emerson is the most logical thing they can do. >> Um, I like both of them. I think Trav bang on with that thesis from from what I've seen at least. And JD, I'm I'm not as familiar with Sunstone, but I know there's been a fair bit of M&A activity in Ecuador. Um, I looked at Titan TTM, which is also just another one of these developers that kind of you think is there an M&A angle? Um, but yeah, a lot of money flowing around in that area. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, there's there's another one we should chat about as well, and it doesn't have the kind of same populist zeal that I know you love, Trav, but Minerals 260 was flying very much under the radar from when they did the recap, took on the the bulling asset uh within the last year or so, but then they did have a kick up. And Ben, you've you've followed this one for some time. So they went from, you know, 12ish cents from memory now over 30 cents all of a sudden on the back of this gold runup and everyone kind of taking attention and perhaps now other companies running the ruler over it. Is that part of the thesis here or is it sort of sort just sort of screening cheap on the development basis? >> Yeah, I'd say it's more the latter. I mean it's yeah, as you said it was a it was a really chunky raise 220 million bucks. The stock was just trading at 12 to 14 cents in that range for ages. um despite it being you know pretty pretty good asset particularly in a in a um gold bull market um yeah of scale well over 2 million ounces and that's probably I think it's almost 4 million ounces on an unconstrained basis which you know read into that what you will but I think the point is that they've identified it as an asset where there's some easy wins put out some drill results extend um the resource boundary long strike and at depth And yeah, just super cheap. So, bought some of that at I think 14 and maybe 16 cents around there. Uh, and it has run I mean to be honest, it's actually run a lot harder and in a short amount of time than we would have expected. But I think it's just kind of one of those ones where yeah, a few people get onto it, then a few more people get onto it and all of a sudden it kind of rerates at least closer to fair value. Um but yeah, I think that's a pretty good project and and maybe will attract M&A, but it's it's not a um you know, the make or break for the thesis, I suppose. Yeah, >> I like it. I like it. So, one one of the things that we were we were chatting about here, Ben, throughout this week and over the weekend doing a bit of research was the the commodities that haven't been so hot. Obviously the the whole basket we've spoken about there, gold is is on a tear and it's an interesting time to to look around the field because commodities is all we kind of know here and think about where where could we park some money that will do well in in the medium to to kind of long term and the energy complex is the one that kind of jumps out at you. So keen to talk about a couple um uh names throughout the the oil and coal space to start with Coron. Now, I'm excited to talk about this one with you because you said you went on a site visit there. So, keen to hear how that how that all went down and and what your thinking on um on the company is after that. >> Yeah, we did. It was a um super interesting site visit. So, obviously they've got offshore Brazil and then they've got Gulf of Mexico/ America um more recently. Um and yeah that they did an investor site visit to both offshore platforms and I'd say the main takeaway from the site visit is that we were the only other uh the only fund manager there. There was one so myself and Luke Lared that is um there was one other private investor who's quite a large individual shareholder of the company. Um, and then there was a bunch of um, investment bankers as well, both in the US and here that are all kind of um, sniffing around potentially for a US listing or uh, whatever event they are looking for. But um, >> that's pretty telling, isn't it? >> It's telling in the sense that I think the sector is hated. I mean, who likes oil and gas at the moment? I mean, all I'm hearing is gold, gold, gold, maybe copper, maybe one or two other things, but I think you'd be pretty hardressed to find a a less liked sector of the market at the moment. >> We'll flash it up now, but there's this like chart of the the uh yeah, gold to oil ratio throughout history, and it's >> I think I saw that. >> It's um it's pretty startling when you look at it with the exception of co like we're we're in um yeah, uncharted territory. I mean, anytime you get these these like, you know, big spikes in this this this ratio, it's it's not like it, you know, things just work like that forever. Yeah. You you have a yeah, commodity like gold leads the way commodities commodities are in vogue and focus and um yeah, oil price often comes if people talk about the similarities between this period and the 1970s. Well, yeah, gold led the way and then then oil took charge. Yeah, it's um I think oil it's even at $60 or so 65 looks pretty good. And yeah, Karun, I suppose the other thing to mention is that pretty low cost producer even though it kind of gets lumped in this bucket of probably lesser quality names sometimes. But yeah, we checked out the assets and I mean if there's probably a bit of nuance in the sense that it's hard, it's super hard like going 200ks offshore in a helicopter with massive capital intensive equipment. Like it's no wonder that they have production difficulties every now and again. And if you're an analyst modeling 95% production uptime, like you're kidding yourself. Um, but the thing we've seen with these capital intensive uh businesses is they do obviously have a lot more inherent leverage to the cycle. So when the cycle does turn, um, you can make some good money. >> Yeah. And it Yeah. Lots of lots of um lots of lots of push around the governance of this company like 18 odd months ago. A lot of that's resolved now. So you're you're getting the benefit of of more thoughtful uh yeah like engagement with shareholders, more thoughtful returns to shareholders like not not M&A for the sake of M&A and um and a register that that is thinking long term about return to to shareholders. I'm pretty sure Stam is a is a big shareholder there joined by by some friends, you know. >> Yeah, I think they've got that mix right now. Um, in terms of capital allocation, I think they were super receptive just to general discussion and feedback from shareholders. So, yeah, I think the management team's actually really good there. I mean, you've got the CEO, Julian is actually departing, so we'll see who they bring in um as the replacement top dog there, but yeah, I think all the the pieces are in place there to to get a reroute here. >> Yeah, totally. And should say ding ding ding on that one as well. Go going into the coal space. Stanmore is a really interesting name. So quick numbers for the first half. Six and a half million tons they did at 89 US bucks FOB cash cost. So the the balance sheet is you know net debt 100 million call it US dollars now. So it's looking a lot healthier than it once was. And where you know we're at a pretty low eb in the in the coal space. Are you starting to do a bunch of work? Have you held names, be it Stan or or similar type names for a while now, Ben? >> Yeah, I mean to varying degrees. I think right now we're probably a bit um higher weight than we have been in the past if at all. So yeah, Stanmore is probably the standout. Um I think probably Stanmore and New Hope management are quite um high quality, probably best in class. New Hope's obviously got the the lowcost thermal. Stanmore's got mainly the PCI stuff. So, it's kind of a different dynamic and out of Queensland. So, you got to obviously factor in the royalty rates. But if if they're producing 14 million tons peranom of coal at that quality at that cost of you know 100 bucks a ton uh maybe a touch more then you know they they're making decent margin even at current prices which I think it's pretty clear that that's that's kind of well into the cost curve now. Um you've got some of the marginal players Bow and Coke and Cole um couldn't get it to work. you've had BHP cutting back workers at at Saraji. So, yeah, I think that there's probably on a on a medium-term basis um good upside in coal prices. And yeah, again, it just kind of comes back to the oil argument. It's it's like, well, energy is hated. Uh we saw what happened when that be it a supply shock like in 2022 or even just people not pricing these things as terminal decline like it's pretty easy to get stand more um looking at like a $4 or5 stock and that's not even really incorporating any growth projects that they could kind of have a have a crack at if the cycle turn. So yeah it's one we um kind of back management in and just ride it out from here. >> I'm with you on this one. I think um even the like the the guys who love Cole, they love Cole and even they're pretty quiet like the last you know six odd months and you know I mean Stan Mo had some great green shoots in a very short period of time but but um but it's yeah it's still too quiet things uh look tricky to get worse from a Costco perspective like Yeah. Yeah. Uh well the the then then you hope you kind of touched on as well. I find that super interesting. But but I really want to peel into um your your views on the mining services companies as a way to to play a a broader kind of commodity boom like extra extra activity. Mining services companies, there's a a plethora of different types of companies. Some are capital intensive and um can often be just pretty bad businesses and some of them are not capital intensive and can be magnificent businesses. Um what's your what's your read having done a bunch of work in this this space, mate? Yeah, I think um there's a couple of names that kind of stand out to us from a quality perspective and an earnings perspective, whereas some of them, as you said, like it's just hard to get comfortable with some of these contractors um especially after they've run a fair bit recently that have the construction risk. Like I remember we saw uh NRW um earlier in the year at conference and they were kind of had a temporary pullback based off that um that steel uh recoverility of potential um might lose money on that contract and yeah that was probably the time to buy it but instead we actually bought Emo EHL. Um we also met with them around the same time and this to us was like it was really important to meet with management because we needed confidence that the sins of the past like going into underground mining services and um bit of misallocation of capital was was in the past. Um but yeah we met with them and got a lot of confidence that they were just like sticking to their knitting. Um yeah a few easy wins within the business to kind of get utilization of their um rental equipment. So it's rental equipment for mining uh in Australia. So pretty broad exposure across gold um coal, iron ore, other other minerals. So yeah, it was it was more of a a case of are they on the right track? If yes, what's the right price for it? And we thought, you know, 70 in the 70 cents range was not the right price when NTA was over$120. It's now$136 trailing NTA. Um, and the interesting thing here is, yeah, you've had rumors of of takeover. Um, in the press, I mean, whether that happens, it's hard to say. It's hard to say who the obvious acquirer would be, but you'd think any any takeover bid would have to start with, start at NTA, and that's probably going to improve to a$140, like high dollar 40s on our numbers. Um, and you potentially got capital returns coming in the next 12 months given they're generating over 100 mil free cash flow. So still think it's bit of a um it's a it's a good riskreward. I'll say from here still I think >> the mining services names are are super super interesting and I think they're they're a kind of way you know broadly mining services I'm talking including mining tech in here in in here as well but they're they're that kind of way of playing the the resource cycle once people start looking to see what what goes next in a sense. You've spoken about index and XRF as well. Why don't why don't we kind of start with index for a moment because they are you know at the grassroots at the exploration uh stage they they can really do well and when you start to see all these capital raises happening in the gold space and other commodities you mentioned copper as well there before you start to think hey maybe a company like index could get a bit of a tailwind and they've just been an an interesting kind of indicator of of expiration action is is that part of the thesis in in playing this one >> it is I mean if you're a gold miner making record cash flow suppose where's that cash flow going um dividends >> I don't think so >> I I don't think so >> Sanvic ground support >> yeah of course of course that's the that's the rational capital allocation but um >> mate you the the ground needs to stay people need to stay safe you need to invest in sanvic ground support to get more gold out of the ground like you can't you can't have expansion without in fact in fact mate I know a guy who you should just get in touch with Sammy ground support >> Derek Herd. Is that Derek Herd? >> Derek Herd. Do you know Derek? I'll introduce you to Derek after this conver. But yeah, wouldn't mind an intro. >> Stella guy. I'll I'll I'll hit you up. I'll hook you up with Derek. If anyone else wants to be hooked up with Derek, just get in touch with JD and I will we'll hook you up. We'll hook you up with >> Go Sanvic ground support. >> Sorry, back to Index, mate. >> I think anyway, I think the dollars are going back into the ground. Index is kind of the market leader in um drilling technology and yeah they kind of consolidated that position over the last couple years by acquiring the the number two player and yeah I think they've just got got really good leverage to I mean not only gold but kind of across all medals to to be honest I think we've owned this for a while now and probably been a bit early on it like it's done well but I thought you'd see a bit more like I think they disappointed at the full year result sold off a little it bought a few more shares, but um yeah, it's kind of surprising that it hasn't fully flowed through yet. But I think there's probably just a a couple of years of lag before you really start to get these um drill programs kind of chugging, especially at the bigger company level, which is predominantly where they are. Um but yeah, I think, you know, I've been seeing numbers on these some of these gold developers that they're finding new gold. I'm always a bit sus on these metrics, but they're finding new gold at a discovery cost of, you know, 10, 20, $15, $20 an ounce. Um, but the point is, >> it cost us zero to lower the cutoff grade. >> Exactly. But I think, um, if you're having to pay, you know, well over a hundred bucks an ounce to acquire any development project, well, potentially you could just get that those dollars put into the ground and index is a good way to play it. >> Yeah, it's a super interesting way to play it. If if we touch on one more in that related kind of space, this one's really interesting before we jump into grade control. Eurosartley's now the the the playing of the the broker or the the gatekeeper to capital in the mining space has always kind of fascinated me be you know talking about Sprat overseas or any of the other brokers here and similar to um EMO we've started to see M&A rumors in this space. So Beimo rumored to be um looking around here in in Perth looking at the the other names and then we also saw the the financial numbers come out of um of Argonaut and you know brokers love to know how much the other shop is making. You know who's doing well on on the street and they're all doing pretty well at this moment in time. But how much of your thinking here is just an alternative way to to play the the capital cycle versus a company that might be building out its private wealth platform etc. It's a bit of both really. I mean we initially invested with the um predicated on the fact that you're you had a big chunk of cash. you had this wealth management business where um you know having worked in this industry, it's it's clear that that's probably more valuable um or at least acquirers are willing to pay a higher multiple for that revenue. And then you've got this cyclical kind of capital markets exposed um revenue which maybe was low in the cycle a couple of years ago um a year or two ago, but you were essentially getting that for free. And I mean, we just thought that was kind of um ludicrous given that yeah, gold price was actually starting to creep up at that point and yours Heartley's are I think well known for their their gold analysts and the deals um that come with that. So yeah, that was the initial thesis. I mean now it's it's run a little bit. It's returned a bit of capital. Still think it looks very cheap. Um and now it's probably an earning story where yeah, Argonaut's printing money. You've got Canacord over there as well. Um, and yeah, Euros Heartley is the other kind of key player we see and and yeah, just kind of having dealt with their people think that they're pretty good quality. Uh, it's the only one that's listed on the ASX of those as well. So, potentially gets a bit of strategic interest, but otherwise, um, given the alignment with with staff, I think you probably just get good dividends and maybe more capital returns in the future. >> A super interesting one. They're they're um I think they all got I think they all get gobbled up in time and become part of the yeah the Canadian extension like like how successful was that for for Canac buying patterns I think was tremendous successful. I think it's like >> yeah kind of like a no a no no-brainer way to to get real synergies and you can point to point to that one pretty clearly but the >> but yeah the the it's it's not like a hard thing to to see from your perspective. You're just getting like notifications every day of a new capital raise from these brokers and like 6% of every one of these is going to these guys. Like of course the business is is going up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's amazing. U indulge us Ben. We got to very quickly talk about some of the some of the news that came from the week from um maybe some of the bigger end of town. I know you're a small caps fund. So uh it's all right if you you don't have too much to say on these things because I mean I I don't blame you for not paying attention to Riointo. I'll have a look at the opinion on something, mate. >> Ah, that's important. Uh, one thing we saw this week in uh, grade control, Rio and its uh, Robe River JB partners, they approved a US $733 million uh, sustaining project at West Angeles to keep that hub at about 35 million tons peranom. So, look, Rio's cashier is US 389 million. The plant sustains pilgrim system capacity around 130 million tons peranom. There's plenty of construction jobs, of course. Um, and they also target autonomous holy from 2027. >> I think the a couple interesting things. One is that if they're going to deploy all this capital into the the Pilgrim or stuff, um, I'm for it. I think that's an that's an A in my books just because I think that's the highest returning uh return on invested capital that Rio, BHP, Fordscq can all do rather than like there was I think Trav you shared it. There was a slide in BHP's investor deck where they had return on capital across iron ore which was like 40%, copper which was in the 30% and then coal was basically 0%. So probably I think they should be allocating more to iron ore and the coal piece is more of a that's how you play Stan Moore who's buying off these guys. Um but yeah, I I quite like it in in general. Um I think they've got a lot of good projects there. Um, and yeah, don't mind that area of the world. >> Yeah, >> it's going to be fascinating in like 15 years time when we look back at the deal that that was was done on on Roads Ridge with the with the Bennetts and um and the Japanese and we can ask ourselves the question, could Rio have done that deal in a bigger way themselves? And should they not have bought Arcadium and instead gone ham at Roads Ridge? It's the last of the best iron ore that we have. >> Big question. Big question. Yeah, I think that's that is absolutely one that's going to take a a bit of hindsight to to look back to and we we won't be able to grade now. But the the detail in in what you said there that I want to underscore is the the Japan Australia relationship. We saw that with with this deal as well. Obviously, Robe River is a an exemplary sort of example of of that relationship and and long may that kind of continue. Another one for the majors was Fordscu's refi. So, they came out with an announcement that they're going to buy back, I think it was sort of 600 odd million of their notes. We spoke a little while ago about what they have done in in China in terms of financing themselves. And this broader trend of companies refinancing themselves is a big one that we um we should talk more about. We touched on it with with Minres, but you know that that cost of capital debate is is huge. And the the rates these guys are going to pay. It's not quite as cheap as uh perhaps the the Japanese in in the Rio example there, but it's coming down. And it's coming down for a couple reasons. Obviously, you got headline rates falling in in the US and around the world. and you've got spreads tightening massively. So over the over the past three years, the the the spread as in the difference that these riskier companies, the higher yielding companies have to pay above the the safer or the government debt is shrinking. And for a minres to come out with a sort of 7% number and for these these miners to be paying under 4% is magnificent. So I think we're going to see a lot of it. It's undoubtedly an an A for the companies and they should just jump at that opportunity. And and the flip side of that is obviously if you if you drop the the cost of capital, the valuations for all these companies go up, which is almost a scary thought in the face of the market we're we're seeing right now, but that's that's something we're kind of contending with at a global level. Ben, you you look at things from a a generalist perspective. I'm not sure if you've got I'm I'm curious to hear if you do have big thoughts on on what these rates are going to do to to perhaps supercharge an already kind of frothy market. >> Yeah, not not really. But I mean it is interesting as you say like do you start to run um a lot lower cost of capital through your models and that's probably we saw that 2020 2021 when uh rates were low near zero and then you can just kind of continually um bump up your your price targets if you're an analyst trying to trying to chase the share price. I'm waiting for this these uh these stories to come out in the coal space. Like if you just think where's where are the stocks mispriced from a cost of capital perspective like yeah like everyone has the cost of equity through the roof for cold stocks like things are changing on that front and then if your if your composition of your whack is is weighted heavily towards debt and all of a sudden you replace your your your 10% coupon debt with a with a with a 6% like yeah that makes a pretty meaningful impact to your whack and um and maybe there's a lot of mispriced equities out there as a result of that. Ben, derivative of the iron ore world that um you're a bit of a value hunter. Talk to me about Red Hill Minerals. >> Yeah, I think this is the best kept secret on the ASX, this one. Um they've got a 75% royalty over Minres's Onslow Iron project, which has obviously been super well covered by you guys, um and I'm sure everyone's familiar with. But the bottom line is that the royalty holder isn't exposed to the same set of risks that um Minres is as the operator and you know whether you like it or not I think they've shown that they can get to this 35 million tons peranom run rate um which all that expansion comes at no cost to the royalty holder. you run 35 million tons peranom um through your model 100 buck iron ore less a bit of a grade discount you're probably spitting out 35 $40 million peranom of royalty revenue red hill as the original um they originally found the onslow project as it's now known um they trade on a 215 mil market cap 160 mil EV uh which is a lot of numbers but I mean it's four times effectively eBar I think you're probably going to get more production growth there as you tack on another trans shipper and I mean originally when they were Minres was developing this project they were always targeting a higher um production rate and I think they did that whole road deal with Morgan Stanley which gave them gave Minres the upside um so it was always kind of the plan and I think in time you do get there um and yeah this is just a super interesting company I mean What's a royalty worth in a smaller mid-tier company like this? Um certainly not not the current valuation I would argue. I mean the other question marks um which which you'll obviously you I'm sure you'll be asking me is well they're still spending a bit on exploration and kind of um are they going to are you actually going to see that cash? Well, which is obviously yeah the big question and I mean you got Josh Pit kind of controlling this company 34. 4% plus some of his um associates I think. So they kind of largely control the register but I suppose where where you get confidence is they have been a big dividend payer in the past. Um so they paid out a lot of that um that other 200 mil payment that they got from minres um as well as kind of ongoing dividends. They've committed to 50% of Onslow profits as their dividend policy, which is a bit of a an interesting one. But um yeah, even on those numbers, the stock still looks quite cheap. And I think yes, we would probably like to see them spend less on exploration and more on becoming a dedicated royalties player because you could almost double the share price from day one in our opinion. uh and they've they've maybe taken some strides towards doing that. Like they acquired a couple of other small royalties. One looked quite good. One, it's just earlier stage one. So, um there's potential to kind of go further down that route, but um regardless, I think you probably still get paid at the current share price. I I don't I actually I went to this company's AGM last year and I don't I don't have any concerns about uh governance or or or capital allocation like just you've got you've got long-term thinking, long-term alignment. There's not excessive unnecessary spend. I mean like yeah, people should um do a bit of googling and figure out how successful at expiration Josh Pit has been through throughout history. It's phenomenal. like even if they're spending money on expiration like I don't I don't think that will be necessarily a completely comparable thing to other companies who spend money on expiration. Um yeah >> and they've kept the budget quite tight like consistently. >> Totally. They watch the dollar. You can tell that um I think it's a really interesting company as well. I I don't even mind the strategy of buying like like the deal they did to buy those um sandstone royalties. I thought it was a I thought it was a good deal and like I thought it must have been a bilateral deal, but apparently they run a process and they just they just won the process. So anyway, um maybe they'll maybe they'll actually be be a competitive player when it comes to you know um yeah creating royalties themselves or or or acquiring royalties. If there's one trend I'm kind of pretty pretty pretty pretty confident about in our industry over the the coming um yeah wave of whatever's going on, royalty companies, small scale royalty companies like they become super attractive. There'll be consolidation there and yeah like yeah I I think they're they're very very very very attractive ways for a lot of people to have exposure to our industry. >> Yeah. I mean, I know you've had Spencer Cole on the um on the podcast before, and I think Vox is another really interesting one. Um it's not ASX listed, so you know, no skin in the game. But I think their strategy is super interesting, like hoovering up these smaller royalties, which you know, one in every X becomes Onslow. And yeah, it's a huge value uplift and and no one's really looking at them. >> Yeah. Well, they just did this deal, like a pretty transformational deal for them, buying a pretty pretty sizable gold royalty uh book off of off of Dera. And that maybe gives them like sufficient scale to to be quite attractive to Yeah, I mean, Elemental is now going to be the um a bit of a vehicle for to round up a bunch of things. I feel like Fox is a natural one on the list there for them, but yeah. Uh sweet deal, S deal. That's predictive raybacks. This was a big big bit of news in the week. Uh predictive robex joining joining together. Predictive the technical acquire 5149 split serious synergies here. Operational team of of Robex clearly you know apply that to to predictive and you've got a a pretty interesting company. Guinea synergies like happy happy happy days here. This deal makes tons of sense. You think the same Ben? Sweet deal. >> I do. I mean, my only other point to to add would be that if you're not reading the director's special daily newsletter, then what the bloody hell are you doing? Because this I was trying to think when the deal got announced where I swear I've seen this before. Searched my inbox and sure enough it was um I think it was in June that you guys reported that there was potentially a merger. Um, y >> and >> yeah, I mean, can't really make any money out of it from a fund manager perspective like these merger of equals that's just maybe get some synergies and it probably makes sense as a deal, but I mean that that kind of area is tricky for us anyway. But yeah, >> I'd say this one's a sweet deal as well. Obviously, not massive to to your kind of point there, Ben, um, jurisdictional spread here. It's still Guinea and Marley kind of focus, but the the talent to get these assets off the ground. Super keen to to watch that company grow. Capricorn and uh Waridar had perhaps a final chapter play out this week as well. Trav, bit of a bump for for the Warar shareholders. Instead of getting uh one Capricorn share for every 52.75, they'll get one Capricorn share for every 62 shares. I think I think this is a pretty interesting precedent just because like we we had Jimmy Nichols join us a few weeks ago and he said if come down to the independent experts report um if if uh if it says it's fair and reasonable it might be trickier for an uplift and I said I'll take the other side and uh take that James I was right but interesting part about this deal there was no um there was no no best and final like within the the docks yet I think that probably probably makes sense not to not to put that there just yet just because there could be some some you know who knows if there's more corporate interest in in wor that could still play out. you reserve reserve the optionality, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a best and final come out from from Caporn uh as the as the yeah as the deadline kind of approaches on things. But yeah, >> sweet or sour? >> Sweet deal. I think this is good for everyone like yeah like like the peers to wor had had run between the deal announcement and and like his time gone on with gold price running like I think this just acknowledges that and um yeah it keeps I mean this the shareholders are going to be future shareholders like this this is just like you know it's good for them too you kind of want them on side. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm with you to to round off sweet and sour deal. There was a heap of capital raises across the market. far too many to to jump into to all of them, but the one that stuck out actually happened at the tail end of last week and then got upsized. 600 million was the Aussie only component plus the 400 million Canadian for NextG. Taking that one on board in the uranium space. Ben, thoughts on this one? >> Yeah, I like this one. I'll give this one a sweet deal. I mean, there's a lot of other raisings that we've um said no to and probably goes to our Euros thesis, but anyway, the next gen um quite like the look of that asset as I'm sure everyone does. It's kind of well um well known that it's probably the best underdeveloped asset, uranium asset globally. But still think the numbers probably stack up if you're bullish on uranium. Um and the other ways to play uranium we're not too keen on. um be it Boss or Paladin or some of the smaller developers that are hoping for a US government handout. Um but yeah, quite like NextG. Think they're entering into a catalyst rich period now where you've got permitting kind of reminds me a little bit of degra which kind of it it got bought into that period. I think NextG's strategic value means it'll probably get bought as well. Um and I think it's a reasonable chance over the next six months. So we took a bit of that placement um bought a bit more. So yeah, like it. >> The interesting part of this to me was was learning. I don't think it's actually been reported outside of the director special, but um Gina, well by Hanok Prospecting bid for200 to $300 million a stock and um that's why it got upsized in Australia where it on the decline apparently allegedly. >> Yeah. Um >> and a lot of scale back too still. >> Yeah. I I Yeah, I can imagine. So I think like the the permutation I'm running in my head is Yeah. at the permitting point that makes the most sense for a corporate outcome like for sure because because shareholders probably don't want existing management to be the ones to develop the project and they're pretty invested in in an outcome in that sense. Now when when you might get a corporate event or or um some sort of bid and it's revealed, what's Gina going to do, right? like uh is she going to buy a blocking stake on market very quickly and then all of a sudden it'll be a deal with an uplift and it'll be a joint venture with Gina. Um I I I just think that's a pretty real possibility too. Yeah. >> Yeah. There's probably a few ways it can play out, but I think the good thing with NextG is it's probably got a range of potential acquirers rather than some of these more niche niche metals that Yeah. may be a great project, but like the majors realistically aren't looking at them. >> Yeah. Hidden gems. What do you got to share, JD? >> Hidden gems. I've got a couple things to share. Firstly, Trev, we started we started watching this doco yesterday. It's one I'd watched years back. It's called it so financial type of people out there will will love this one. It's called Trader. Now, it's the the documentary that focuses on Paul Judah Jones and his correct calling of the 1987 crash. It is um it's eye opening. It's kind of hilarious. It's very 1980s and it's also pretty insightful. Like Paul Tudtor Jones is a massive name in in the trading business. So that's one if you're into those types of things to to check it out. And he's of course making waves with an interview he did earlier this week saying we're in 1999. So read into that what you will. And the second thing I'll call out is a podcast. Um the podcast is on the tape and it was an interview with Michael Lewis obviously the the famous author of The Big Short and Lies Poker. And the podcast itself is hosted by a few of the guys that were in the Big Short. So Danny, Vinnie, and Porter. And they um yeah, they do this kind of weekly or kind of bi-weekly podcast. Super interesting. But yeah, their reflections on getting to to know Michael in the process of the book being written, their reflections on the financial crisis, as well as trying to take the pulse of where we are in the market right now. Ben, have you got something else for Hidden Gems? Well, I'm a big Michael Lewis fan, JD. I recently watched re-watch Moneyball again and can't speak high enough of that that movie. Um, totally. But >> what I do have for you is um >> in terms of holiday spot, so in mid year I went to Iceland. Um, which I think I I want to call it out for the money uh minor community because it's got just incredible natural landscapes, geothermal. It kind of just like has a bit of um yeah, geological beauty about it. I think it's just a stunning place to do a road trip around there. Um it is expensive, but when the market's running, hopefully you're invested in Senica's funds, then you should have enough um discretionary income to to put to work there. So, that's my one. >> Awesome, mate. >> Um mine is mine is the book that uh yeah, our our audience is is we call our money miners. This book, Money Miners. think it's I think it's an interesting thing to reread at this period of time. Not like one reflection of the the the crazy nickel boom um of the the late 60s early 70s was no one rings a bell at the top but but it's very interesting to like just like read about you know bubbles and uh human psychology human sentiment as things kind of get more and more excessive and narrative kind of rebases higher and higher and higher. Um, and like you know we're all everyone everyone everyone's making loads of money in a bull market heaps but but it's always just like good to just check and try and like compare where are we like where are we at any point in time so yeah it's just uh refreshing to read this point period of time I think. Fantastic, Ben. Thanks a bunch for joining us and and sharing your thoughts on Gez, we must have covered two dozen stocks there. So, really appreciate that. And a massive thank you to Sanvic Ground Support, Focus, the platform by Market Tech, and IMAK. Get your tickets. Huroroo money miners. Now, remember, I'm an idiot. JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot, and you need to read our disclaimer.