Gold Mania, Niobium Dreams, and Antimony Nightmares
Summary
Investment Strategy: The firm emphasizes the optionality of holding cash and limiting market exposure, maintaining a cash-heavy position to capitalize on market downturns.
Market Outlook: Current markets are in a risk-on mode, reminiscent of 2006-2007, driven by accommodative US monetary policy, with a focus on commodities and technology stocks.
Commodity Insights: There is a notable interest in gold due to increased demand from passive ETFs and central banks, while copper faces supply disruptions, making it a key focus for future investment.
Technological Developments: New technologies in metal recovery are gaining attention, although skepticism remains due to past failures; however, breakthroughs could offer significant investment opportunities.
Company Discussions: The podcast highlights companies like WA1 for its strategic niobium deposits and Linus for its US-centric rare earths strategy, emphasizing the importance of strategic positioning in niche markets.
Risk Management: The firm prefers to sit on the sidelines for speculative tech investments, focusing instead on disciplined investments in proven technologies and resources.
Geopolitical Risks: Investments in regions with weak rule of law, such as Africa, are approached with caution due to risks of nationalization and government intervention.
Portfolio Allocation: The firm strategically sizes positions based on company maturity, with smaller allocations to juniors and larger ones to producers, reflecting a risk-adjusted approach to portfolio management.
Transcript
We're sort of a firm that really values the optionality of holding cash and limiting your market exposure. It's very rare that we're invested, you know, even a high 90% basis. Um, so we tend to be pretty cash heavy. I reckon we um like what you were saying there, Manny, let's let's jump in with everything that's happening in in the market right now. It's just it's just bonkers. It's it's crazy. there's so much to to see and do and read and and keep up to speed with. So, how how are you sort of feeling about the markets at the moment? Yeah, I think markets have been uh incredibly strong and um in true sort of um risk off uh risk on mode I should say and um and yeah, it just feels like um there's a real um sort of flight to being long assets um not not only in commodities but um across the spectrum I would say and um a lot of that is of course driven by um you know very accommodative uh US monetary uh policy and um yeah well it's great to to see you know to to see market so buoyant after >> after some years of um uh you know being not so buoyant especially in the commodity space. >> Are are you feeling pretty preoccupied with the with the macro environment at the moment and then just trying to trying to break down and do your research on on the company specifically as much as you can too. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think the you know it reminds me of um you know years past in many ways and um uh I think that you know when I think back this reminds me a lot of um uh let's call it the years uh 2006 and 2007 where which was truly sort of in in riskon mode across um all asset classes. even things like um uh you know metals technology that we've seen so much of and defend stocks ripping so hard um you know it truly feels like um you know history's rhyming here in some degree but it it you really as an active sort of investor you've actually got to be very careful about being overly bullish. um you know you can make a hell of a lot of money in these sort of environments which is why we're all here but you've also got to be protect thinking about well how do I get go to liquidity if required >> let's jump into that 20067 analogy a bit a bit deeper what are the other sort of things that that ring sort of similar >> um I think that uh I always reme recall at the time we had um uh disruptions in um uranium supply at that stage Today we're seeing sort of this a similar sort of dynamic in copper uh most prominently I'd say. Um we've seen you know I think it was Grassburg uh you know an accident there that that looks like it'll affect production over the in in just in the last few days. Then we've also got a number of other very you know globally significant mines that are you know producing at lower levels than anticipated. So it's a similar sort of setup in in that respect. Um and you know I I think also you know things like um you know new and novel um methods of metal recovery that was something that was actually very um you know popular back in 2006 2007 and um >> this is before our time you like I'm so curious about this because I know history repeats and it looks like similar but different but that is absolutely a theme at the moment is is um yeah the kind of hype around new technologies that can that can come in lower on the cost curve for some niche metal or multiple metals. And these stocks are the flavor of the month. They fly. They don't have to prove anything just yet. They just need some contract or or government support to say that they they might work. Um >> yeah, that's absolutely right. And um you know just that metal recovery angle is something that has become so um you know it seems like it's very strategically important particularly for you know the US sort of supply chains um back in ' 06 07 it was you know the same sort of thing it was more sort of um to do with tailings recovery and you other sort of um you know secondary sources or technology breakthroughs I don't think any of those companies ever were successful incidentally Um but you know tech techn technology um has advanced since then. So you just never know right with these things what might come about. Um you know investors have clearly um bit up a whole range of stocks in this se sector because uh they want to have exposure should you know these um various forms of technology transa be able to scale up and achieve you know a commercial size um which is going to be a tough job you know it's not not a given that and that's what I've learned from experience um yeah >> I'm so curious I'm so curious if you how you interpret those like um yeah, investment opportunities. Do you still participate on the premise of like, okay, I can see there's going to be hype. I can see that there's going to be um you know, retail interest. I can see that there's going to be a rerate on these things alone. I'll get in and get out. Or do you just do you just sit on the sidelines? >> We tend to sit on the sidelines. Um I think a lot of that ultimately comes down to experience. It's like um you know it's almost like um you you can often uh make a lot of money by being naive which is what I what happened to me basically you know 06 07 um and um but you know you you have to be very conscious of that you know you're going to buy the ticket take the ride but you've got to have a very clear view of when you're going to get off the bus ultimately. um in you know me today I think that we're not um uh you know we're we're more disciplined I guess than than I was in the past in investing in these sort of technologies and um uh you know having having scars from from the previous experience that's definitely sort of um made me a lot more um skeptical of so-called claimed tech technological breakthroughs and new processes and all the If if we think about the government intervention as opposed just to the quote unquote tech breakthroughs, how do you think that actually permanently or at least in the medium-term changes the the playing field for commodities? >> Um I think that ultimately it depend a lot depends on whether these um you know breakthroughs actually work um in the medium term. Um I uh I believe that um you know recovering um secondary sources of metal if you would rather than primary is always going to be a harder sort of task to do just purely because um to recover primary metals from oes um it's basically you know a lot cheaper to do and it doesn't come with the same sort of um uh logistical issues and the number of counterparties that you need to deal with in let's call it you know sourcing circuit stock uh uh circuit board feed stock for instance there's a lot of hoops to jump through just to secure the supply whereas with primary metal recovery you've typically dealing with only a couple of um authorities if you would and from a single source right so that's just um uh what I how I view things from from the top down and um through through a very you know practical common sense approach right? >> Yeah. What one of the the the points you kind of you know hit on early was just having >> having the ability to have liquidity when you know when and when things kind of um fizzle from go from froth to fizzle. are for you does that just look like um a substantial defensive positioning in gold stocks or or more liquidity or like what what how do you think about that part? >> Yeah, sure. Um so I guess at the portfolio level um uh I we're sort of um a firm that really re uh values the optionality of holding cash. Yeah. >> And limiting unit market exposure. Um it's very rare that we're we're sort of uh invested uh on a on you know even a high 90% basis. Um so we tend to be pretty cash heavy. We're probably fairly cash heavy at the moment. You know we're probably holding about 20% cash but um you know pleasingly we've been able to sort of keep up with the broader market um uh despite having you sort of lower market exposure and um you know if if things go south quickly um we'll be in a really good position. So that's where you really make your money by buying well when everyone else is a force seller. So that sort of um uh philosophy has worked really well for us over many years. >> So part of that keeping up with the market has been your allocation to gold which you've done really well in and we've spoken about this over the years but things have really accelerated recently. How how are you thinking about it like right right here right now about your allocation? >> Yeah sure. So, I think that um gold has just had a fantastic run. uh you know there's been so much um demand that's basically been pushing up um spot prices and um I read a really interesting observation um just in this last week and it was just um comparing the uh the sort of weight of capital and the number of tons being bought on the gold market by passive ETFs relative to central banks and it was just enormous the sort of passive flow that's coming that appears to be coming into um you know uh gold ETFs. So you know perhaps this uh strong gold price performance is actually um being driven by greater awareness you know from mainstream investors that oh well maybe we need to have you know a small like two or 5% position allocated to gold in our portfolios. So, um that's pretty exciting I would say because you know central back bank buying um it's such a black box right you just never know um uh what may happen u despite um despite you know long-term strategic plans and and rhetoric if you would from from the major central governments um but you know what if you have sort of uh embedded in the mainstream investor psyche that oh well maybe my portfolio does need to have a 5% gold allocation. The upside is actually sign significantly more um uh or could be significantly more in terms of um future gold gold price upside. But you know saying that I'm not a gold permable by any means but um and you know there are other asset classes to invest in you know in you know what's clearly an age of um financialization and debasement of of currencies worldwide right doesn't doesn't necessarily matter what the asset is as long as it's um you know something like a hard asset and um is recognized uh by other investors as having value then um those are the assets you want to be long and everything else is sort of um all the all this um you punchier stuff on that we mentioned um is really what would you call it you know it's an ancillary effect that's that's how I view it >> the within the the the gold kind of you know part of part of the you know the hard asset equation today's underperformer is tomorrow's outperformer it appears with the gold names Like for example, Vog just announcing a buyback up 55% in the space of like a matter of weeks. Truly remarkable that that uh that that happens and they were one of the the underperformers before then. >> Um where where you seeing relative value in the producers? >> We had exposure to sort of a broad um suite of those midcap producers like Bolt and Genesis, Romelius, all the rest of them. Um I think that they've had incredible performance in in recent times as you pointed out. So I guess you know the the problem for are that the sort of challenge for us is that where is um the value now that these have become uh the multiples have increased. They've become probably more fairly valued than they were let's call it 3 months ago. Um and I think that there's a lot of value in the next um uh or sort of the smaller producers. I'm thinking um producers like Mika Metals for instance that are just going through their own sort of ramp up and um uh they're sort of in uh you know the Merchesen belt which has um been sort of a secondary belt in the in in recent years but now we're seeing obviously um production uh out of companies like Catalyst and um West Gold um in that region and um if you're a producer being sort of valued at, you know, a significantly higher multiple than you were, let's call it 6 months ago. Um, how do you capture or enhance the value in your company, right, in in a way that's independent of the commodity price in isolation? And I think to me that means that well a the most obvious way is to secure more ore right and really kick out those uh LOMs effectively and you know so I think that um you know in the merch in particular like you've got probably you've got a a couple of smaller um producers like uh Mika then you've got sort of small companies that are sitting on uh deposits that weren't really considered to two valuable let's call it a year ago but now all of a sudden the the equations really changed so like um uh the great boulder you know the odysseies of the world that are that are you fairly small but they hold um you know a valuable sort of resource now effectively um >> great bold is very interesting in the sense that it you could totally understand the value proposition of the value of those ounces to an airby mill but they um they they haven't had the same like uh yeah share price rate of of many of the other yet undeveloped projects in the vicinity. >> Yeah, I think that it's it's always um uh you know it can be tricky with the small players because um if I mean they're obviously they're clearly not sort of um number one on anyone's list for if if someone wants gold exposure full stop, right? So you've uh so the teams of these sort of smaller companies really have to be out on the road and you know providing comfort to investors that they've got a plan. The plan has you know probably a shorter term sort of um uh range of catalysts that will add value to shareholders um to attract you know the money effectively. um you know in a roaring gold bull market, no one wants to be in, you know, the stock that doesn't move ultimately and um uh that's always the the tricky thing as an investor, right? That you don't want to be if you want exposure um you have to really take a portfolio sort of approach with it all just to mitigate that risk. Now Trav, investors might be having a tough time picking goldies because there's so many good ones to pick from. But good thing for the gold companies themselves, picking ground support is easy because there's only one name to know. >> Sanvic ground support. >> Sanvic ground support. Product produced here locally in QA WA for the whole of Western Australia and the broader Australian mining industry. There's only one name you need to know in ground support and that's Sanvic ground support. >> I don't think there are other names in ground support. No, it's it's Sanvic or it's Sanvic. It used to be DSI, so that that name >> that was the name. Yeah, that name still lingers in the memory. >> Yeah, but it it is Sanvic ground support. >> And we we had the the privilege for the money miners. We did a bit of quality assurance and quality control down at the facility a couple weeks back just to sus out that what they're doing is the highest quality work. And rest assured, it is. >> I was super impressed, mate. People that work there take a lot of pride in what they're doing. >> They do. Look at the footage we're overlaying right now. Check that out. >> Unreal, mate. I was um What did you learn there? >> I learned what the uh the process of galvanization is like, mate. And it is quite special. Biggest facility in the southern hemisphere here locally on the outskirts of Perth doing God's work for the mining industry in Australia. >> Mate, you need galvanization if you want to be, you know, just durable throughout. >> Want stuff to last forever. >> It it kind of does last forever. >> That's it. Four, five, six coats. >> Just like Samic ground support lasts forever in our minds, your minds. and you're going to remember him when you need Zambic ground support. Go Zambi. >> Have you gone all the way down? I know we previously spoken about some real explorers and juniors. Are you still allocating much to to that end of town? >> Um, we do have a very a small allocation to that um uh uh I guess uh sort of company. Um, you know, perhaps another belt that would be good to talk on would be, you know, the Southern Cross Belt, which is, um, you know, um, you know, once again, it has been a secondary belt in the past. Um, but you've got sort of a range of juniors. Um, Golden Horse is probably one of the biggest ones there, and you've got um, FRS and TG6 as well. >> What the heck is going on with FRS? This is just what I'm This company is kind of just Yeah. doing deals left every day there's a new deal and >> yeah I can't stocks ramped to crazy on um and just seems to be doing a new deal every day just buying everything in the vicinity. >> Yeah. Well, well, it really goes comes down to the management teams, right? That um uh you know, we've seen the new MD there um join in a and in a very short space of time put put his foot on um you know, what's growing to become a you know, a reasonable size of asset ultimately in a in a gold bull market and they've been very aggressive about it, right? So >> yeah, >> that that's generally viewed favorably by investors that well, you know, if um you someone's not just going to sit on their hands and do nothing, right? You got someone who's clearly motivated and um aligned to to bulking out um you know, the inventory of the company itself. >> And with with Golden Horse, um uh yeah, what's the the the core thesis with with their their portfolio at this stage? Do do you see it kind of >> just supporting one of the the nearby mills in in either the um Southern Cross operation or or Riley's plant? >> Yeah, I think that um you know they they clearly hold a dominant position in the belt and um they've sort of gone about trying to I guess um firm up um that resource base which they seem to be doing uh reasonably successfully I'd say. Um there's still, you know, some way to go though. I think that, you know, could they be a standalone? Uh what's a standalone, you know, how how big the standalone need to be in this gold price environment? That's what I my first thought is. Um previously, you know, it was a million ounces. Um but, you know, could it be lower? I think it could be. Um but then you know how do you ultimately um let's just say you can get you know milling capacity or bio plant or whatever it is um how does that look and how can it be supported? So there's a few different uh factors there, but what we like about the company is that um you know the land position is is is significant and that's going to be of significant value you know ultimately and and they've been sort of um you know drilling successfully for for you know some time now and um they still seem to be sort of fairly um uh underowned I would say um purely just because they've obviously just um shifted across to the ASX whereas from from from the TSX listing that they were on um in the past. >> Yeah. Another belt that I know you had some um some exposure to in the past was the >> great Yandel uh belt via the company uh Yandel who who's yeah had had a a bit of a run in the the last couple of days on the on the back of um Yeah. Yeah. proving up the car discovery. Are you are you um you still pretty buoyant about the the outlook for for Yandel? >> Um I think the latest results out of Iraqus were interesting. I think that um it shows that there is some level of continuity there. However, it is um sort of ve very early days um there I would say still >> um you know it's going to take um time, effort, money, all the rest of it to to really sort of um determine if um Iraqus is a economic resource. Um and yeah, I I think that you know they've got they've got a good team. um they've got you know a reasonable amount of funding um from my understanding and uh you know a good register. So >> are you worried about that register component with with gold uh you know now gold fields effectively owning a a stake which uh yeah could could be could be monetized but previously where gold road were a supporter. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that look I think that um to me it makes sense that gold fields may divest if someone you know comes knocking on the door looking for stock then it's really you know not at their sort of scale as yet it could you know still yet to be proven um but yeah you know I think that you know it's it's been such a prospective belt um over many years that um uh it's it's difficult to say you know or predict the future with these things. But, you know, great sort of it's all about location, right? And they they put their foot in a great location and um it's just going to take time and effort and money to to determine if there's anything worth finding there. >> Manny, if we if we zoom out for a moment, how do you actually think about the the portfolio allocation to gold and how you sort of size the positions for all the companies we've we've just mentioned in amongst your broader portfolio? >> Yeah, sure. So I think that um you know obviously uh with um supporting explorers you've got to be conscious about how much um or how large a size you're willing to run in your portfolio. So for a junior we'll typically be um you know fairly small I would say probably like sub uh sub three or 4% is probably uh you know where we top out from a portfolio level whereas um uh you can take more risk sort of the the further um you get or the closer you get to producers. So, you know, development companies, um, we'd be happy to take, I don't know, five or 6% producers. You might got to, you know, seven or so percent, 7 8% just just really horses for courses and and what you're actually trying to capture. >> Yeah. >> From a portfolio perspective. >> Yeah. Yeah. That there's actually one more individual, Goldie, that I wanted to chat with you about, Manny, and I know you've spoken about it in the past. It was predictive discovery over in in West Africa. Are you still long that one? >> Uh no we are not. Um and that was a sort of a very conscious effort uh oh conscious decision I should say to to um trim um African gold stocks. Um thankfully just before um things got a bit dicey and um the way I thought about that is that um you know you see great asset assets like PDI and WF was one of our exposures um in the past and um one thing that's not often thought about is that you know as um gold prices rip um in jurisdictions with uh you know weak rule of law if you That's when um these assets become increasingly attractive uh for governments to you know put their foot on or uh you know nationalize or get involved and just be a disruption basically to to the assets owner and um you know we've seen that play out in with um WF you know um and there's not too much you can really do about it unfortunately um we've seen other instances like um King's Gate KCN, you know, where the Thai government um basically tried to nationalize their mind and it took many years to resolve, right? And >> um >> they they managed to sort of uh thankfully um uh you know get get control back of the asset and seem to be you know doing quite well these days. But you know that's a real sort of um risk when you're investing overseas. So I think about um you know you see development projects that um actually really they they seem to be really sound like Toro is one I can think of or Santana oh to in Chile um uh which is a sort of you know a well recognized mining jurisdiction um but you you see the presence of um majors and the ability to do business there um it it's a lot lower risk than Africa and and Santana that I mention mention is New Zealand. So almost like Australia but comes with its own sort of um >> almost >> risks. Almost. Yeah. Um so so these are sort of if I'm going to invest in a developer, these are probably the sort of um assets that I'd rather have exposure to than um a PDI, right? Which is probably in a in a spicier jurisdiction in my view. >> Makes sense. the I am kind of curious like I if you were um like of of all of the the types of commodities like all of the commodities out there right now like on a if that if the asset quality was was all the same like what would you most be tempted to allocate towards kind of right now um if every opportunity was equal? Um, it just really depends on your time, on your duration, I guess, your investment horizon. I think that gold can continue to uh be pretty provide punchy returns in the short term, but you know, over the over sort of the medium term and onwards, that's when you really have to think about well, um, where's what's the demand going to be for uh, yeah, how's technology going to progress? what does the world need etc. Um and that's when um you know you come back to things like copper that's obviously uh you know a sort of mineral that's hard to find in in good quantities and and good resources. But then you have um things like nobium that are clearly going to be extremely important to um future technology and and material science and all the rest of it. So um you've created a layup to talk about WA1. >> Ding ding ding. I thinking I don't think we've ever had a conversation with you where we don't talk about um WA. It's been a name of your your portfolio and of your >> um yeah, your fund's performance of course, but um yeah, uh I I it's it's really interesting to watch the consistency of of your um your support kind of, you know, through through what is a an orphan period in the in the Lan curve. Um are are you are you a believer that the Lissan curve kind of doesn't doesn't matter when you have the asset quality? >> Um I think it matters um irrespective. Um I think we saw we've I mean we've obviously seen WA1 trade you know almost um I think the the peak was about 22 or 23 bucks at one stage and um you know it pretty much h haveved from there and um has come back um quite quite strongly now that um they've derised their funding etc. Um and look, you know, um I think my views are are very clear on um uh you know, just the absolute unicorn quality of this or deposit. And that's only um strengthened over time. Like we've seen catalysts like um the ability to to um produce nobbium oxide from the deposit itself which is just um it's an enormous you know um breakthrough and one that was totally unexpected. I thought that it will take him, you know, 2 or 3 years at least, but um it just happened, right? And um that to me it it really demonstrates how um great a quality this this resource is. And um uh you know, these things only get more valuable over time, right? And they haven't even defined the extent of the resource. So that's, you know, one of those problems that um you you just set and forget and come back in 10 years and um yeah, just just has all the, you know, factors that we love. Um and um all we need is a Department of Defense contract, right, from the US. Hopefully the the team working on that. >> Do do you think something like that is is likely? like do you think it it um it lends itself to a you know strategic you know deal with uh all of the the US activity at the moment? >> Yeah. Well, look, it's the only it's it's going to be the world's only uh producing nobium asset with no Chinese ownership, right? And that's a that's a you know, it's just flamagasting when you think about it, right? that um uh every single uh producing Naobbian mine on Earth has um a you know Chinese owner owner in the ownership structure itself. This is the one that's only you know it's the the the jurisdiction the ownership structure everything sort of speaks for itself. So that makes it highly strategic in its own right that um you know reminds me of the little uh I made this analogy before about Lionus and um the highly strategic um nature and value in in the resource itself. So I view this as being you know an analogy but you know if not better because uh rare earths are hard to deal with as as we all know but um they seem to have really been able to sort of crack the nobium recovery um uh for this deposit. So it's all all really exciting. Yeah over over the medium term. >> I'm super excited to to talk about Linus but a couple more on on WA1 first. When do you think the the timing would make sense for an arrangement like this? Like we are still relatively early in the the discovery, understanding and study process of WA1. So how do you think of that that that evolution and when joint ventures with you know be it government or major strategics make sense? >> Yeah. Um it's a good question. I would probably intuitively say that um uh it would probably be post studies I would say. Um I think the challenge is with this resource is just so uh tremendously huge over 200 million tons. Um it's sort of a major sized asset. So that means it'll have um probably a longer time frame than if it was just like a you know little um 20 million ton you know resource that that was constrained but you know I think that um that does kick out the the time frame somewhat but um it only increases the value right as as we've talked about like life of mine isn't going to be a problem this will this was some an asset that will be uh producing um longer than any of our lifetimes, right? Ultimately, and um true true sort of multigenerational asset. So, you know, I I think that as a shareholder um you know, I'm happy to let the team do things the right way and take their time and that's ultimately going to be a benefit to all shareholders and the nation as well. Right. How do you think about the um the uh neighbor encounter which which is has now demonstrated that they you know they have high grade nobbium themselves. Would would you prefer to see some form of of consolidation so that there's like you know one one exchina champion and you don't have the m you know maybe extra supplier come onto the market that would be um in a very small market like would you prefer to see consolidation into course there or or are you sort of you kind of just happy for for you know things to run their course if there are if there are two players >> yeah I don't think encounter have a commercial resource or an economic resource at the moment um I think a lot of it comes down to the um you know the difference in methodology. So you know encounter obviously made um uh resource estimate primarily off air core drilling um very widely spaced. So there's a lot of uh what I'd call inference of what the resource is. Um so it's a it's a much lower sort of con confidence estimate but it's also you know significantly smaller than what WA1 have. Um and I think probably another sort of small pet peeve I have is that they haven't sort of disclosed uh the multi the full multi multi-elemental suite um in the assays itself. So, uh I don't know if they're, you know, if the ores radioactive for instance, if they're elevated thorium or uranium um results in there, um who knows, right? Um so that to me sort of um you know downgrades the project um or makes it sort of less likely that it is a commercial proposition if if the company are not comfortable disclosing making those disclosures. Um so yeah I don't think that consolidation is necessary especially when you've got um you know an or deposit that >> that is yeah it's an interesting one to sort of follow and yeah they they continue to come out with bits and pieces of of results but the yeah the the neurology type plays and people jumping on the nobium bandwagon as well is not just limited to to the companies surrounding WA1. starting to see it more and more across the world and in in Brazil and in parts of Africa as well. So it's something to kind of follow. >> Now it's now it's antimony neurology. >> That one's taken off. >> It's just MP materials neurology now is the the right and I think that look you know and and um you know just to be clear I think encounter do hold some great ground but I think that um nobium was the flavor of the month right at the time of the discovery. um and they've obviously def defined um some sort of resource but you know I I like their copper ground for instance encounter and I've always tell them that don't talk to me about nobium I want to know about your copper stuff and you know they seem to be having some success there so you know I hope they do find a big copper discovery um in the western and I mean ultimately it all comes down to infrastructure right this is such a remote part of the world um but the potential for big discoveries are so significant. Um I do expect there'll be more discoveries bound to over time. Um and you can see you know that in uh yeah other other small juniors right like Tarly Resources that are sort of the little little brother or considered the little brother of WA1 um but further to the south um there and um yeah I think that look uh these sort of propositions um you know um in terms of like encounter and tally they're they're sort of high risk high reward and um you know the return profile is is very and and nature of the company is very different from um you know a WA1 for instance. >> The elusive IOCG deposit was what WA1 were were hunting for after all. If we if we jump on to Lionus now Manny, what do you think they're going to buy with with all that money? >> Um that's a good question. I think that um it feels like um Aluca are putting their foot on a lot of resources and trying to sort of um get that feed stock for for the rare earth refinery that they're building in in WA. Um what Lionus do I think that Lionus will probably become more US centric given that's where the market is um at the moment. um as you said the MP medals deal they also had um an agreement there um for you know a heavy rare earth recovery um plant that they announced I think 2 or 3 years ago. So I think that that um Linus business will become increasingly more um US focused or yeah try try and crack that sort of yeah supplying the US um given um you know the clear push towards re reonshoring >> to the US. So that's my sort of um opinion and what I think makes sense. >> Yeah. Very interesting. I um I want I I feel like I've I've ages ago read you tweet about antimony maybe when it was just like just kind of becoming flavor of the month, you know, like I don't know 18 months ago or something. And um the persistence in in the the the retail interest and attention in antimin maybe it was you that coined anti-money. It might have been the first time I ever read. I thought that was hilarious. So yeah, >> um yeah, I'm kind of just like keen to to to peel into your views on anti-money or anti- money. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I should have called it pro money because it's gone. That was clearly um wrong there. Um but yeah, look, I think anti antimony is um uh you know, just it's a niche metal that is, you know, the you know, highly concentrated um you know, in in Chinese hands um and and an industry absolutely controlled by by the Chinese smelters. Um I think that you know I think from my observation there there's a lot of antimony around it but you know to really um commercialize these deposits it's hard work. Um and look it's it's going to be you you can't just develop an industry overnight or in a very short time. That's my sort of feel about it. So I think that um you know it'll take a very long you know it'll only happen over a very long time period you know like and I going back to Lionus again because um you know Lionus's view u was was to basically provide an ex-Chinese you know source of rare earths and to try and break the strangle hold on the industry you know I look at it today um liners probably have about you know 10% of the upstream in production globally or thereabouts. Um but you know all the separation is still controlled by the Chinese. So sure they made a small impact in one part of the supply chain but not so much in sort of downstream separation. Um so I think that despite you know the move towards um uh antinomy um that it's going to be a tough nut to crack you know in terms of supply or encouraging that diversity of supply I should say. It's funny looking about all the the explorers and juniors hunting down and you think of a company like Alcane that actually produces in Victoria and Antimony and they're not getting any of the the the rub of the grain for it despite actually producing some of the stuff. >> They've they've um they've had a big reate off of the back of the completion of the Manderlay. They've >> done super well. >> But it but it wasn't it wasn't immediate, you was um yeah like yeah that that was that was kind of like a no-brainer in the in the the whole merit of the deal was scale for index appeal and that's exactly what happened right >> yeah absolutely and I think that you know we've seen a number I guess of these trans transactions just to you know bulk up to get an index inclusion so it really does um sort of uh demonstrate right how important these passive flows are becoming um not only at the level but um at the commodity level itself, right? So >> it probably underpins maybe like the appeal of the the type of company that is just below the threshold like um you mentioned MA before, right? But like if >> Mika might naturally rerate as they ramp up and and the likes, but there's there's also like pretty obvious merit for them to to you know to to do a deal with with someone who's like a $200 million market cap or or the likes and then >> Yeah. Well, you know, if you're a catalyst, let's say, that you know, have um been good at cutting deals and >> um you know, they're they're right next door and you know, they could do with another, you know, um 60,000 odd ounces to their portfolio. Um you know, next next door to their plutonic operation for instance. So that they're very and they're you know multiples of Mika's market cap on um you know a larger production base but that's very yeah a very obvious sort of candidate right that I would expect. >> Yeah. um >> uh you know companies of that nature rather than and I think that those sort of transactions in terms of you know larger companies buying smaller companies is probably the way I'm sort of seeing things playing out um uh rather rather than you know consolidation of um uh you know of um small companies like the Alcine Manderlay merger that you discussed. It's probably going to be more, you know, big fish eat little fish at this stage. I'd say >> if if we think about the other inflation hedges and companies that have done well for this sort of same type narrative, silver springs to mind. Have you got any exposure to silver many? >> Uh no, because I think that just the I mean our last one was uh Adriatic that is obviously part of Dundee now. Um, and look, um, I'd probably say, um, you know, the junior silver space in the ASX, you know, it's it's a pretty bare cupboard, right? Because just by the nature of, um, uh, you know, the the low value nature, I guess, of these deposits, right? And sure, they've become higher value um, over the past um, year or so. Platinum, palladium, PGMs, they're they're a bit of a FL, you know, like we're we're interested in them. The the the rhetoric is is interesting. Platinum is just best performer to date. Have you been exposed to to that as a real asset? >> Uh, no, not at all. I um none of the platinum or PGs or anything like that. Um, but it really does sort of um sort of uh exemplify, right, that the rush towards any sort of hard asset. And I don't know how like I don't I'm not obviously not a PG or platinum expert, but I just often wonder about what the supply and demand dynamics are, you know, what the justification behind uh, you know, the price rises has been from, you know, metals that are fairly niche in nature. Um, yeah. Well, that that's actually a really interesting point of discussion because what we one thing we did hear was like there's been absolute plethora of new like new traders setting up precious metals trading desks. Um, and whenever that does happen, there's there's often like some short-term uh yeah, like like price price squeezes in in the smaller smaller markets. So, can might be able to explain some of the the the health >> of the the prices in those metals. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> if we keep going with the uh the niche medal runaround. We've spoken in the past, Manny, about Medals X. I believe you're you're still a holder and that's obviously one of only two western ways to to get exposure, but >> the tin narrative has been fascinating the the last year. Where are you sort of placed in that and and thinking about it going forward from here? >> Yeah, sure. So I think that um tin is only a small part of our portfolio in Metals X and um yeah look it's one of those that um uh I don't think the supply and uh demand dynamic has changed uh you know by materially I would say and um it just seems to be driven more by you know this flight towards miners than actually producing cash Right. And Metals X has been a value plane for for a long time. So, I'm not surprised by, you know, the recent uptick in in the company's value. Um and you know we just hope the management team you know they they've obviously gone out in in recent times to put their foot on um uh various tin um or other sort of develop tin development assets which I think really does um show what the expectation is right in the coming years. They're hoping or probably expecting or want to be well placed for uh a time, you know, when in the future when, you know, perhaps tin suppliers are more constrained and they can probably capture a lot more upside assuming that that falls to, you know, or pushes up the tin price. So that's when these sort of um fairly marginal deposits and projects become probably quite attractive in a higher price environment at some stage in the future. >> Totally. Totally. Yeah, the uh in the in the copper world, there's just a real like there's so there's so limited um bite-sized opportunities or like you know copper developers that are investable for for geological reasons, but um >> I you know and I I suspect you're the kind of investor that often does try and play uh commodities via developers. Are are there copper developers right now that you're allocating to or have allocations to? >> Um it's yeah, I think that um it's quite difficult to find um really attractive copper exposure I would say on um the ASX. I think there's you know there's a whole sort of laundry list of companies that have been um working development projects for a long time. Uh I'm thinking things like Peele or >> management. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or um Hillgrove or Hava. There's there's a whole whole range of >> of um of companies out there that are sitting on sort of deposits that you know weren't economic in yeah or haven't been economic in the past but maybe they're sort of um getting towards >> ding ding ding ding ding on both Metals X and how I should really disclose but but yeah. So you you've run the numbers over these these companies and are you are you are you thinking that they're interesting or or are you sort of maybe waiting for more catalysts? Yeah, I think they're becoming more interesting and this is where sort of um I'd probably say we're sitting we're involved in a very small way I would say at the moment but um uh I think about you know companies like Cypright which have had you know significant expenditure on on Nifty which has been a bit of a graveyard in the past mind you >> but um you know it's it's at times like this where we're seeing supply shortages that yeah may push up the copper price in the future. That's when these sort of projects, you know, will offer that promise of exceptional rewards assuming that the management team able to execute and they can get it funded and restart goes smoothly, etc. But those are sort of, you know, probably the more obvious candidates I guess. >> The talky stock that one, isn't it? >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But, you know, I mean, you you've got to be obviously conscious about what you're investing in um and and how the economics work, etc. Um but, you know, like going back to something like Havla Trav that you mentioned um you know, you look at the fact that well, you know, once upon a time they they were in a sort of joint venture with Oz Minerals, right? And that sort of demonstrates that well maybe there could be, you know, some decent potential there, right? Well, I I I I agree and that's why I own the stock. But I also think there's another part of that uh option JV with with with OS Minerals that isn't immediately obvious and that's that that option was part of the defense strategy when OSM minerals were trying to negotiate an uplift from from BHP. So they could, you know, well, look, >> whatever the sky MPV of this is, we've got to get an up and they did get an uplift eventually. But um, >> but it was I don't know if OS minerals were motivated in the near term to actually move there, but but it does point out that it was probably the best of a bad bunch if if that makes sense. I do think Caval is probably better than Rex and um and we saw what what Rex went for. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. So there's plenty of opportunity, I guess. But >> yeah, you've got to pick your battles like um you know, Sandfire is obviously the the sort of high quality exposure um on the on the boss and um you know, but is valued accordingly, right? >> Absolutely. Should we wrap up with an underrated overrated? >> I reckon we should mate >> off the top of our heads. Okay, I'll kick it off. First up, underrated, overrated, Manny ionic clay rare earth projects. Uh, overrated >> shareholder activism. >> Um, underrated >> gold at 3,700 bucks. >> Uh, underrated >> hard rock lithium. >> Oo. Um, I would say um, neutral. >> Australian government support for downstream processing. our nation in >> um yeah I think um commodity dependent >> okay >> I would say >> falcon metals >> um I would probably say overrated >> I'm not sure if you've had the chance to to look at this one but a little tin play stellar >> oh I would probably say Um, uh, I would probably say overrated. >> Uh, taking every meeting that is that a brokerage has to put in your calendar. >> Oh. Um, overrated. >> Well, taking every um Okay. Interacting with every every kind of retail punter who might reach out to you. >> Oh, okay. Um I think um overrated >> uh inflation concerns specifically in Australia. >> Uh underrated >> foreign capital moving into like taking strategic stakes in uh in in Australian assets. uh underrated >> the importance of having a major strategic shareholder when it comes to a an upand cominging mining company or junior developer. >> I would probably say uh un underrated >> money mine podcast >> underrated going to conferences. >> Um oh I would probably say overrated because I haven't gone to one yet. So >> interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I >> You haven't gone to any? >> No. No. >> Yeah. >> Never. >> Nice work. >> I I like your different views on on doing things. Like I do remember the very first time we spoke, you were Yeah. You kind of were pretty public in saying, "Yeah, I don't really meet with management too often. I like to make my own views." And I also think maybe that maybe that's changed a little bit over time, but you you were not afraid to just do things a bit differently. Yeah, I think that that is probably uh been relatively consistent. So I think that um uh you know I prefer not to meet management a great deal until we have a position. >> Yeah. But then you know it if it's a large position um then you know you you want to be sort of really uh you want you you want to have knowledge of um you want to back good people of good character and all the rest and with the right sort of um uh incentives and you know urgency I guess is probably the right word for it. So I find that um it's very valuable once we've determined that yeah we want to uh oh we want want this in the portfolio first for a decent time horizon that's when you really get the value. Um but to make the investment decision um it's yeah it's the same same situation. Have have you ever had that process built a significant position for for your fund, met management and then reverse your decision? >> Uh, no. >> Do you think it's o overrated the way that funds under management can impact returns? I think that um you have to be conscious of your capacity and that because ultimately that's what determines um the size of company that you can >> look at get involved take seriously all that sort of thing. So if you if you're running sort of like a let's call it sub 100 mil or or you know even sub50 mil that's when you micro caps become probably more attractive and uh you know it goes other way obviously there comes a point when it's like well you'd only invest in you know the largest most liquid sort of exposures. Um, and my last one is not really an overrated underrated, but I just want to know like if you look back over over the uh yeah, every new investment you've made over the last like call it 3 years, >> what is the most common way that you get idea generation? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think that um, uh, we read, you know, a hell of a lot. I think that we get a lot of benefit in uh just staying on top of um the market news. You know, just ASX reading ASX releases every morning, right? You get can get a real sort of sense of um how company's traveling um you know, sort of the the sort of ambitions of the team. That's sort of something that isn't mentioned or talked about a great deal, but ultimately um all these companies run by people, right? And you have to have that right sort of um you everything else can be perfect, but if a management team doesn't have ambition that's, you know, it'll never work out basically. Um so that's what I found. Um and you know in terms of um idea generation you know you've just got to be really uh you got to be really involved in the present I'd say you know uh not only in the market sense but what's happening around the globe right like we've seen this um become so prevalent that the market moves um uh so much due to what the you know what the commentary of um President Trump is right every every day it feels like almost you know, and and that's um a very stimulating environment for an active manager and for an active investor. So, I think that's where you sort of get the best returns by, you know, keeping a constant pulse on the market and what's happening in it. >> Manny, your results speak for themselves. So, appreciate you coming on. It's always great to chat and yeah, thanks for sharing all your thoughts with us. >> Yeah, no worries, guys. Thanks so much. >> There we go, mate. Another fantastic bit of insight from a favorite funy of money of mine, Manuel Dat. And it's all made possible thanks to our fantastic partners, Sanvic Ground Support, Focus, the platform by Market Tech. Check it out now and get your tickets to IMAK October 21 to October 23. Investors go free. >> We'll see you at IMAKU. >> Now remember, I'm an idiot. JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out a disclaimer.
Gold Mania, Niobium Dreams, and Antimony Nightmares
Summary
Transcript
We're sort of a firm that really values the optionality of holding cash and limiting your market exposure. It's very rare that we're invested, you know, even a high 90% basis. Um, so we tend to be pretty cash heavy. I reckon we um like what you were saying there, Manny, let's let's jump in with everything that's happening in in the market right now. It's just it's just bonkers. It's it's crazy. there's so much to to see and do and read and and keep up to speed with. So, how how are you sort of feeling about the markets at the moment? Yeah, I think markets have been uh incredibly strong and um in true sort of um risk off uh risk on mode I should say and um and yeah, it just feels like um there's a real um sort of flight to being long assets um not not only in commodities but um across the spectrum I would say and um a lot of that is of course driven by um you know very accommodative uh US monetary uh policy and um yeah well it's great to to see you know to to see market so buoyant after >> after some years of um uh you know being not so buoyant especially in the commodity space. >> Are are you feeling pretty preoccupied with the with the macro environment at the moment and then just trying to trying to break down and do your research on on the company specifically as much as you can too. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think the you know it reminds me of um you know years past in many ways and um uh I think that you know when I think back this reminds me a lot of um uh let's call it the years uh 2006 and 2007 where which was truly sort of in in riskon mode across um all asset classes. even things like um uh you know metals technology that we've seen so much of and defend stocks ripping so hard um you know it truly feels like um you know history's rhyming here in some degree but it it you really as an active sort of investor you've actually got to be very careful about being overly bullish. um you know you can make a hell of a lot of money in these sort of environments which is why we're all here but you've also got to be protect thinking about well how do I get go to liquidity if required >> let's jump into that 20067 analogy a bit a bit deeper what are the other sort of things that that ring sort of similar >> um I think that uh I always reme recall at the time we had um uh disruptions in um uranium supply at that stage Today we're seeing sort of this a similar sort of dynamic in copper uh most prominently I'd say. Um we've seen you know I think it was Grassburg uh you know an accident there that that looks like it'll affect production over the in in just in the last few days. Then we've also got a number of other very you know globally significant mines that are you know producing at lower levels than anticipated. So it's a similar sort of setup in in that respect. Um and you know I I think also you know things like um you know new and novel um methods of metal recovery that was something that was actually very um you know popular back in 2006 2007 and um >> this is before our time you like I'm so curious about this because I know history repeats and it looks like similar but different but that is absolutely a theme at the moment is is um yeah the kind of hype around new technologies that can that can come in lower on the cost curve for some niche metal or multiple metals. And these stocks are the flavor of the month. They fly. They don't have to prove anything just yet. They just need some contract or or government support to say that they they might work. Um >> yeah, that's absolutely right. And um you know just that metal recovery angle is something that has become so um you know it seems like it's very strategically important particularly for you know the US sort of supply chains um back in ' 06 07 it was you know the same sort of thing it was more sort of um to do with tailings recovery and you other sort of um you know secondary sources or technology breakthroughs I don't think any of those companies ever were successful incidentally Um but you know tech techn technology um has advanced since then. So you just never know right with these things what might come about. Um you know investors have clearly um bit up a whole range of stocks in this se sector because uh they want to have exposure should you know these um various forms of technology transa be able to scale up and achieve you know a commercial size um which is going to be a tough job you know it's not not a given that and that's what I've learned from experience um yeah >> I'm so curious I'm so curious if you how you interpret those like um yeah, investment opportunities. Do you still participate on the premise of like, okay, I can see there's going to be hype. I can see that there's going to be um you know, retail interest. I can see that there's going to be a rerate on these things alone. I'll get in and get out. Or do you just do you just sit on the sidelines? >> We tend to sit on the sidelines. Um I think a lot of that ultimately comes down to experience. It's like um you know it's almost like um you you can often uh make a lot of money by being naive which is what I what happened to me basically you know 06 07 um and um but you know you you have to be very conscious of that you know you're going to buy the ticket take the ride but you've got to have a very clear view of when you're going to get off the bus ultimately. um in you know me today I think that we're not um uh you know we're we're more disciplined I guess than than I was in the past in investing in these sort of technologies and um uh you know having having scars from from the previous experience that's definitely sort of um made me a lot more um skeptical of so-called claimed tech technological breakthroughs and new processes and all the If if we think about the government intervention as opposed just to the quote unquote tech breakthroughs, how do you think that actually permanently or at least in the medium-term changes the the playing field for commodities? >> Um I think that ultimately it depend a lot depends on whether these um you know breakthroughs actually work um in the medium term. Um I uh I believe that um you know recovering um secondary sources of metal if you would rather than primary is always going to be a harder sort of task to do just purely because um to recover primary metals from oes um it's basically you know a lot cheaper to do and it doesn't come with the same sort of um uh logistical issues and the number of counterparties that you need to deal with in let's call it you know sourcing circuit stock uh uh circuit board feed stock for instance there's a lot of hoops to jump through just to secure the supply whereas with primary metal recovery you've typically dealing with only a couple of um authorities if you would and from a single source right so that's just um uh what I how I view things from from the top down and um through through a very you know practical common sense approach right? >> Yeah. What one of the the the points you kind of you know hit on early was just having >> having the ability to have liquidity when you know when and when things kind of um fizzle from go from froth to fizzle. are for you does that just look like um a substantial defensive positioning in gold stocks or or more liquidity or like what what how do you think about that part? >> Yeah, sure. Um so I guess at the portfolio level um uh I we're sort of um a firm that really re uh values the optionality of holding cash. Yeah. >> And limiting unit market exposure. Um it's very rare that we're we're sort of uh invested uh on a on you know even a high 90% basis. Um so we tend to be pretty cash heavy. We're probably fairly cash heavy at the moment. You know we're probably holding about 20% cash but um you know pleasingly we've been able to sort of keep up with the broader market um uh despite having you sort of lower market exposure and um you know if if things go south quickly um we'll be in a really good position. So that's where you really make your money by buying well when everyone else is a force seller. So that sort of um uh philosophy has worked really well for us over many years. >> So part of that keeping up with the market has been your allocation to gold which you've done really well in and we've spoken about this over the years but things have really accelerated recently. How how are you thinking about it like right right here right now about your allocation? >> Yeah sure. So, I think that um gold has just had a fantastic run. uh you know there's been so much um demand that's basically been pushing up um spot prices and um I read a really interesting observation um just in this last week and it was just um comparing the uh the sort of weight of capital and the number of tons being bought on the gold market by passive ETFs relative to central banks and it was just enormous the sort of passive flow that's coming that appears to be coming into um you know uh gold ETFs. So you know perhaps this uh strong gold price performance is actually um being driven by greater awareness you know from mainstream investors that oh well maybe we need to have you know a small like two or 5% position allocated to gold in our portfolios. So, um that's pretty exciting I would say because you know central back bank buying um it's such a black box right you just never know um uh what may happen u despite um despite you know long-term strategic plans and and rhetoric if you would from from the major central governments um but you know what if you have sort of uh embedded in the mainstream investor psyche that oh well maybe my portfolio does need to have a 5% gold allocation. The upside is actually sign significantly more um uh or could be significantly more in terms of um future gold gold price upside. But you know saying that I'm not a gold permable by any means but um and you know there are other asset classes to invest in you know in you know what's clearly an age of um financialization and debasement of of currencies worldwide right doesn't doesn't necessarily matter what the asset is as long as it's um you know something like a hard asset and um is recognized uh by other investors as having value then um those are the assets you want to be long and everything else is sort of um all the all this um you punchier stuff on that we mentioned um is really what would you call it you know it's an ancillary effect that's that's how I view it >> the within the the the gold kind of you know part of part of the you know the hard asset equation today's underperformer is tomorrow's outperformer it appears with the gold names Like for example, Vog just announcing a buyback up 55% in the space of like a matter of weeks. Truly remarkable that that uh that that happens and they were one of the the underperformers before then. >> Um where where you seeing relative value in the producers? >> We had exposure to sort of a broad um suite of those midcap producers like Bolt and Genesis, Romelius, all the rest of them. Um I think that they've had incredible performance in in recent times as you pointed out. So I guess you know the the problem for are that the sort of challenge for us is that where is um the value now that these have become uh the multiples have increased. They've become probably more fairly valued than they were let's call it 3 months ago. Um and I think that there's a lot of value in the next um uh or sort of the smaller producers. I'm thinking um producers like Mika Metals for instance that are just going through their own sort of ramp up and um uh they're sort of in uh you know the Merchesen belt which has um been sort of a secondary belt in the in in recent years but now we're seeing obviously um production uh out of companies like Catalyst and um West Gold um in that region and um if you're a producer being sort of valued at, you know, a significantly higher multiple than you were, let's call it 6 months ago. Um, how do you capture or enhance the value in your company, right, in in a way that's independent of the commodity price in isolation? And I think to me that means that well a the most obvious way is to secure more ore right and really kick out those uh LOMs effectively and you know so I think that um you know in the merch in particular like you've got probably you've got a a couple of smaller um producers like uh Mika then you've got sort of small companies that are sitting on uh deposits that weren't really considered to two valuable let's call it a year ago but now all of a sudden the the equations really changed so like um uh the great boulder you know the odysseies of the world that are that are you fairly small but they hold um you know a valuable sort of resource now effectively um >> great bold is very interesting in the sense that it you could totally understand the value proposition of the value of those ounces to an airby mill but they um they they haven't had the same like uh yeah share price rate of of many of the other yet undeveloped projects in the vicinity. >> Yeah, I think that it's it's always um uh you know it can be tricky with the small players because um if I mean they're obviously they're clearly not sort of um number one on anyone's list for if if someone wants gold exposure full stop, right? So you've uh so the teams of these sort of smaller companies really have to be out on the road and you know providing comfort to investors that they've got a plan. The plan has you know probably a shorter term sort of um uh range of catalysts that will add value to shareholders um to attract you know the money effectively. um you know in a roaring gold bull market, no one wants to be in, you know, the stock that doesn't move ultimately and um uh that's always the the tricky thing as an investor, right? That you don't want to be if you want exposure um you have to really take a portfolio sort of approach with it all just to mitigate that risk. Now Trav, investors might be having a tough time picking goldies because there's so many good ones to pick from. But good thing for the gold companies themselves, picking ground support is easy because there's only one name to know. >> Sanvic ground support. >> Sanvic ground support. Product produced here locally in QA WA for the whole of Western Australia and the broader Australian mining industry. There's only one name you need to know in ground support and that's Sanvic ground support. >> I don't think there are other names in ground support. No, it's it's Sanvic or it's Sanvic. It used to be DSI, so that that name >> that was the name. Yeah, that name still lingers in the memory. >> Yeah, but it it is Sanvic ground support. >> And we we had the the privilege for the money miners. We did a bit of quality assurance and quality control down at the facility a couple weeks back just to sus out that what they're doing is the highest quality work. And rest assured, it is. >> I was super impressed, mate. People that work there take a lot of pride in what they're doing. >> They do. Look at the footage we're overlaying right now. Check that out. >> Unreal, mate. I was um What did you learn there? >> I learned what the uh the process of galvanization is like, mate. And it is quite special. Biggest facility in the southern hemisphere here locally on the outskirts of Perth doing God's work for the mining industry in Australia. >> Mate, you need galvanization if you want to be, you know, just durable throughout. >> Want stuff to last forever. >> It it kind of does last forever. >> That's it. Four, five, six coats. >> Just like Samic ground support lasts forever in our minds, your minds. and you're going to remember him when you need Zambic ground support. Go Zambi. >> Have you gone all the way down? I know we previously spoken about some real explorers and juniors. Are you still allocating much to to that end of town? >> Um, we do have a very a small allocation to that um uh uh I guess uh sort of company. Um, you know, perhaps another belt that would be good to talk on would be, you know, the Southern Cross Belt, which is, um, you know, um, you know, once again, it has been a secondary belt in the past. Um, but you've got sort of a range of juniors. Um, Golden Horse is probably one of the biggest ones there, and you've got um, FRS and TG6 as well. >> What the heck is going on with FRS? This is just what I'm This company is kind of just Yeah. doing deals left every day there's a new deal and >> yeah I can't stocks ramped to crazy on um and just seems to be doing a new deal every day just buying everything in the vicinity. >> Yeah. Well, well, it really goes comes down to the management teams, right? That um uh you know, we've seen the new MD there um join in a and in a very short space of time put put his foot on um you know, what's growing to become a you know, a reasonable size of asset ultimately in a in a gold bull market and they've been very aggressive about it, right? So >> yeah, >> that that's generally viewed favorably by investors that well, you know, if um you someone's not just going to sit on their hands and do nothing, right? You got someone who's clearly motivated and um aligned to to bulking out um you know, the inventory of the company itself. >> And with with Golden Horse, um uh yeah, what's the the the core thesis with with their their portfolio at this stage? Do do you see it kind of >> just supporting one of the the nearby mills in in either the um Southern Cross operation or or Riley's plant? >> Yeah, I think that um you know they they clearly hold a dominant position in the belt and um they've sort of gone about trying to I guess um firm up um that resource base which they seem to be doing uh reasonably successfully I'd say. Um there's still, you know, some way to go though. I think that, you know, could they be a standalone? Uh what's a standalone, you know, how how big the standalone need to be in this gold price environment? That's what I my first thought is. Um previously, you know, it was a million ounces. Um but, you know, could it be lower? I think it could be. Um but then you know how do you ultimately um let's just say you can get you know milling capacity or bio plant or whatever it is um how does that look and how can it be supported? So there's a few different uh factors there, but what we like about the company is that um you know the land position is is is significant and that's going to be of significant value you know ultimately and and they've been sort of um you know drilling successfully for for you know some time now and um they still seem to be sort of fairly um uh underowned I would say um purely just because they've obviously just um shifted across to the ASX whereas from from from the TSX listing that they were on um in the past. >> Yeah. Another belt that I know you had some um some exposure to in the past was the >> great Yandel uh belt via the company uh Yandel who who's yeah had had a a bit of a run in the the last couple of days on the on the back of um Yeah. Yeah. proving up the car discovery. Are you are you um you still pretty buoyant about the the outlook for for Yandel? >> Um I think the latest results out of Iraqus were interesting. I think that um it shows that there is some level of continuity there. However, it is um sort of ve very early days um there I would say still >> um you know it's going to take um time, effort, money, all the rest of it to to really sort of um determine if um Iraqus is a economic resource. Um and yeah, I I think that you know they've got they've got a good team. um they've got you know a reasonable amount of funding um from my understanding and uh you know a good register. So >> are you worried about that register component with with gold uh you know now gold fields effectively owning a a stake which uh yeah could could be could be monetized but previously where gold road were a supporter. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that look I think that um to me it makes sense that gold fields may divest if someone you know comes knocking on the door looking for stock then it's really you know not at their sort of scale as yet it could you know still yet to be proven um but yeah you know I think that you know it's it's been such a prospective belt um over many years that um uh it's it's difficult to say you know or predict the future with these things. But, you know, great sort of it's all about location, right? And they they put their foot in a great location and um it's just going to take time and effort and money to to determine if there's anything worth finding there. >> Manny, if we if we zoom out for a moment, how do you actually think about the the portfolio allocation to gold and how you sort of size the positions for all the companies we've we've just mentioned in amongst your broader portfolio? >> Yeah, sure. So I think that um you know obviously uh with um supporting explorers you've got to be conscious about how much um or how large a size you're willing to run in your portfolio. So for a junior we'll typically be um you know fairly small I would say probably like sub uh sub three or 4% is probably uh you know where we top out from a portfolio level whereas um uh you can take more risk sort of the the further um you get or the closer you get to producers. So, you know, development companies, um, we'd be happy to take, I don't know, five or 6% producers. You might got to, you know, seven or so percent, 7 8% just just really horses for courses and and what you're actually trying to capture. >> Yeah. >> From a portfolio perspective. >> Yeah. Yeah. That there's actually one more individual, Goldie, that I wanted to chat with you about, Manny, and I know you've spoken about it in the past. It was predictive discovery over in in West Africa. Are you still long that one? >> Uh no we are not. Um and that was a sort of a very conscious effort uh oh conscious decision I should say to to um trim um African gold stocks. Um thankfully just before um things got a bit dicey and um the way I thought about that is that um you know you see great asset assets like PDI and WF was one of our exposures um in the past and um one thing that's not often thought about is that you know as um gold prices rip um in jurisdictions with uh you know weak rule of law if you That's when um these assets become increasingly attractive uh for governments to you know put their foot on or uh you know nationalize or get involved and just be a disruption basically to to the assets owner and um you know we've seen that play out in with um WF you know um and there's not too much you can really do about it unfortunately um we've seen other instances like um King's Gate KCN, you know, where the Thai government um basically tried to nationalize their mind and it took many years to resolve, right? And >> um >> they they managed to sort of uh thankfully um uh you know get get control back of the asset and seem to be you know doing quite well these days. But you know that's a real sort of um risk when you're investing overseas. So I think about um you know you see development projects that um actually really they they seem to be really sound like Toro is one I can think of or Santana oh to in Chile um uh which is a sort of you know a well recognized mining jurisdiction um but you you see the presence of um majors and the ability to do business there um it it's a lot lower risk than Africa and and Santana that I mention mention is New Zealand. So almost like Australia but comes with its own sort of um >> almost >> risks. Almost. Yeah. Um so so these are sort of if I'm going to invest in a developer, these are probably the sort of um assets that I'd rather have exposure to than um a PDI, right? Which is probably in a in a spicier jurisdiction in my view. >> Makes sense. the I am kind of curious like I if you were um like of of all of the the types of commodities like all of the commodities out there right now like on a if that if the asset quality was was all the same like what would you most be tempted to allocate towards kind of right now um if every opportunity was equal? Um, it just really depends on your time, on your duration, I guess, your investment horizon. I think that gold can continue to uh be pretty provide punchy returns in the short term, but you know, over the over sort of the medium term and onwards, that's when you really have to think about well, um, where's what's the demand going to be for uh, yeah, how's technology going to progress? what does the world need etc. Um and that's when um you know you come back to things like copper that's obviously uh you know a sort of mineral that's hard to find in in good quantities and and good resources. But then you have um things like nobium that are clearly going to be extremely important to um future technology and and material science and all the rest of it. So um you've created a layup to talk about WA1. >> Ding ding ding. I thinking I don't think we've ever had a conversation with you where we don't talk about um WA. It's been a name of your your portfolio and of your >> um yeah, your fund's performance of course, but um yeah, uh I I it's it's really interesting to watch the consistency of of your um your support kind of, you know, through through what is a an orphan period in the in the Lan curve. Um are are you are you a believer that the Lissan curve kind of doesn't doesn't matter when you have the asset quality? >> Um I think it matters um irrespective. Um I think we saw we've I mean we've obviously seen WA1 trade you know almost um I think the the peak was about 22 or 23 bucks at one stage and um you know it pretty much h haveved from there and um has come back um quite quite strongly now that um they've derised their funding etc. Um and look, you know, um I think my views are are very clear on um uh you know, just the absolute unicorn quality of this or deposit. And that's only um strengthened over time. Like we've seen catalysts like um the ability to to um produce nobbium oxide from the deposit itself which is just um it's an enormous you know um breakthrough and one that was totally unexpected. I thought that it will take him, you know, 2 or 3 years at least, but um it just happened, right? And um that to me it it really demonstrates how um great a quality this this resource is. And um uh you know, these things only get more valuable over time, right? And they haven't even defined the extent of the resource. So that's, you know, one of those problems that um you you just set and forget and come back in 10 years and um yeah, just just has all the, you know, factors that we love. Um and um all we need is a Department of Defense contract, right, from the US. Hopefully the the team working on that. >> Do do you think something like that is is likely? like do you think it it um it lends itself to a you know strategic you know deal with uh all of the the US activity at the moment? >> Yeah. Well, look, it's the only it's it's going to be the world's only uh producing nobium asset with no Chinese ownership, right? And that's a that's a you know, it's just flamagasting when you think about it, right? that um uh every single uh producing Naobbian mine on Earth has um a you know Chinese owner owner in the ownership structure itself. This is the one that's only you know it's the the the jurisdiction the ownership structure everything sort of speaks for itself. So that makes it highly strategic in its own right that um you know reminds me of the little uh I made this analogy before about Lionus and um the highly strategic um nature and value in in the resource itself. So I view this as being you know an analogy but you know if not better because uh rare earths are hard to deal with as as we all know but um they seem to have really been able to sort of crack the nobium recovery um uh for this deposit. So it's all all really exciting. Yeah over over the medium term. >> I'm super excited to to talk about Linus but a couple more on on WA1 first. When do you think the the timing would make sense for an arrangement like this? Like we are still relatively early in the the discovery, understanding and study process of WA1. So how do you think of that that that evolution and when joint ventures with you know be it government or major strategics make sense? >> Yeah. Um it's a good question. I would probably intuitively say that um uh it would probably be post studies I would say. Um I think the challenge is with this resource is just so uh tremendously huge over 200 million tons. Um it's sort of a major sized asset. So that means it'll have um probably a longer time frame than if it was just like a you know little um 20 million ton you know resource that that was constrained but you know I think that um that does kick out the the time frame somewhat but um it only increases the value right as as we've talked about like life of mine isn't going to be a problem this will this was some an asset that will be uh producing um longer than any of our lifetimes, right? Ultimately, and um true true sort of multigenerational asset. So, you know, I I think that as a shareholder um you know, I'm happy to let the team do things the right way and take their time and that's ultimately going to be a benefit to all shareholders and the nation as well. Right. How do you think about the um the uh neighbor encounter which which is has now demonstrated that they you know they have high grade nobbium themselves. Would would you prefer to see some form of of consolidation so that there's like you know one one exchina champion and you don't have the m you know maybe extra supplier come onto the market that would be um in a very small market like would you prefer to see consolidation into course there or or are you sort of you kind of just happy for for you know things to run their course if there are if there are two players >> yeah I don't think encounter have a commercial resource or an economic resource at the moment um I think a lot of it comes down to the um you know the difference in methodology. So you know encounter obviously made um uh resource estimate primarily off air core drilling um very widely spaced. So there's a lot of uh what I'd call inference of what the resource is. Um so it's a it's a much lower sort of con confidence estimate but it's also you know significantly smaller than what WA1 have. Um and I think probably another sort of small pet peeve I have is that they haven't sort of disclosed uh the multi the full multi multi-elemental suite um in the assays itself. So, uh I don't know if they're, you know, if the ores radioactive for instance, if they're elevated thorium or uranium um results in there, um who knows, right? Um so that to me sort of um you know downgrades the project um or makes it sort of less likely that it is a commercial proposition if if the company are not comfortable disclosing making those disclosures. Um so yeah I don't think that consolidation is necessary especially when you've got um you know an or deposit that >> that is yeah it's an interesting one to sort of follow and yeah they they continue to come out with bits and pieces of of results but the yeah the the neurology type plays and people jumping on the nobium bandwagon as well is not just limited to to the companies surrounding WA1. starting to see it more and more across the world and in in Brazil and in parts of Africa as well. So it's something to kind of follow. >> Now it's now it's antimony neurology. >> That one's taken off. >> It's just MP materials neurology now is the the right and I think that look you know and and um you know just to be clear I think encounter do hold some great ground but I think that um nobium was the flavor of the month right at the time of the discovery. um and they've obviously def defined um some sort of resource but you know I I like their copper ground for instance encounter and I've always tell them that don't talk to me about nobium I want to know about your copper stuff and you know they seem to be having some success there so you know I hope they do find a big copper discovery um in the western and I mean ultimately it all comes down to infrastructure right this is such a remote part of the world um but the potential for big discoveries are so significant. Um I do expect there'll be more discoveries bound to over time. Um and you can see you know that in uh yeah other other small juniors right like Tarly Resources that are sort of the little little brother or considered the little brother of WA1 um but further to the south um there and um yeah I think that look uh these sort of propositions um you know um in terms of like encounter and tally they're they're sort of high risk high reward and um you know the return profile is is very and and nature of the company is very different from um you know a WA1 for instance. >> The elusive IOCG deposit was what WA1 were were hunting for after all. If we if we jump on to Lionus now Manny, what do you think they're going to buy with with all that money? >> Um that's a good question. I think that um it feels like um Aluca are putting their foot on a lot of resources and trying to sort of um get that feed stock for for the rare earth refinery that they're building in in WA. Um what Lionus do I think that Lionus will probably become more US centric given that's where the market is um at the moment. um as you said the MP medals deal they also had um an agreement there um for you know a heavy rare earth recovery um plant that they announced I think 2 or 3 years ago. So I think that that um Linus business will become increasingly more um US focused or yeah try try and crack that sort of yeah supplying the US um given um you know the clear push towards re reonshoring >> to the US. So that's my sort of um opinion and what I think makes sense. >> Yeah. Very interesting. I um I want I I feel like I've I've ages ago read you tweet about antimony maybe when it was just like just kind of becoming flavor of the month, you know, like I don't know 18 months ago or something. And um the persistence in in the the the retail interest and attention in antimin maybe it was you that coined anti-money. It might have been the first time I ever read. I thought that was hilarious. So yeah, >> um yeah, I'm kind of just like keen to to to peel into your views on anti-money or anti- money. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I should have called it pro money because it's gone. That was clearly um wrong there. Um but yeah, look, I think anti antimony is um uh you know, just it's a niche metal that is, you know, the you know, highly concentrated um you know, in in Chinese hands um and and an industry absolutely controlled by by the Chinese smelters. Um I think that you know I think from my observation there there's a lot of antimony around it but you know to really um commercialize these deposits it's hard work. Um and look it's it's going to be you you can't just develop an industry overnight or in a very short time. That's my sort of feel about it. So I think that um you know it'll take a very long you know it'll only happen over a very long time period you know like and I going back to Lionus again because um you know Lionus's view u was was to basically provide an ex-Chinese you know source of rare earths and to try and break the strangle hold on the industry you know I look at it today um liners probably have about you know 10% of the upstream in production globally or thereabouts. Um but you know all the separation is still controlled by the Chinese. So sure they made a small impact in one part of the supply chain but not so much in sort of downstream separation. Um so I think that despite you know the move towards um uh antinomy um that it's going to be a tough nut to crack you know in terms of supply or encouraging that diversity of supply I should say. It's funny looking about all the the explorers and juniors hunting down and you think of a company like Alcane that actually produces in Victoria and Antimony and they're not getting any of the the the rub of the grain for it despite actually producing some of the stuff. >> They've they've um they've had a big reate off of the back of the completion of the Manderlay. They've >> done super well. >> But it but it wasn't it wasn't immediate, you was um yeah like yeah that that was that was kind of like a no-brainer in the in the the whole merit of the deal was scale for index appeal and that's exactly what happened right >> yeah absolutely and I think that you know we've seen a number I guess of these trans transactions just to you know bulk up to get an index inclusion so it really does um sort of uh demonstrate right how important these passive flows are becoming um not only at the level but um at the commodity level itself, right? So >> it probably underpins maybe like the appeal of the the type of company that is just below the threshold like um you mentioned MA before, right? But like if >> Mika might naturally rerate as they ramp up and and the likes, but there's there's also like pretty obvious merit for them to to you know to to do a deal with with someone who's like a $200 million market cap or or the likes and then >> Yeah. Well, you know, if you're a catalyst, let's say, that you know, have um been good at cutting deals and >> um you know, they're they're right next door and you know, they could do with another, you know, um 60,000 odd ounces to their portfolio. Um you know, next next door to their plutonic operation for instance. So that they're very and they're you know multiples of Mika's market cap on um you know a larger production base but that's very yeah a very obvious sort of candidate right that I would expect. >> Yeah. um >> uh you know companies of that nature rather than and I think that those sort of transactions in terms of you know larger companies buying smaller companies is probably the way I'm sort of seeing things playing out um uh rather rather than you know consolidation of um uh you know of um small companies like the Alcine Manderlay merger that you discussed. It's probably going to be more, you know, big fish eat little fish at this stage. I'd say >> if if we think about the other inflation hedges and companies that have done well for this sort of same type narrative, silver springs to mind. Have you got any exposure to silver many? >> Uh no, because I think that just the I mean our last one was uh Adriatic that is obviously part of Dundee now. Um, and look, um, I'd probably say, um, you know, the junior silver space in the ASX, you know, it's it's a pretty bare cupboard, right? Because just by the nature of, um, uh, you know, the the low value nature, I guess, of these deposits, right? And sure, they've become higher value um, over the past um, year or so. Platinum, palladium, PGMs, they're they're a bit of a FL, you know, like we're we're interested in them. The the the rhetoric is is interesting. Platinum is just best performer to date. Have you been exposed to to that as a real asset? >> Uh, no, not at all. I um none of the platinum or PGs or anything like that. Um, but it really does sort of um sort of uh exemplify, right, that the rush towards any sort of hard asset. And I don't know how like I don't I'm not obviously not a PG or platinum expert, but I just often wonder about what the supply and demand dynamics are, you know, what the justification behind uh, you know, the price rises has been from, you know, metals that are fairly niche in nature. Um, yeah. Well, that that's actually a really interesting point of discussion because what we one thing we did hear was like there's been absolute plethora of new like new traders setting up precious metals trading desks. Um, and whenever that does happen, there's there's often like some short-term uh yeah, like like price price squeezes in in the smaller smaller markets. So, can might be able to explain some of the the the health >> of the the prices in those metals. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> if we keep going with the uh the niche medal runaround. We've spoken in the past, Manny, about Medals X. I believe you're you're still a holder and that's obviously one of only two western ways to to get exposure, but >> the tin narrative has been fascinating the the last year. Where are you sort of placed in that and and thinking about it going forward from here? >> Yeah, sure. So I think that um tin is only a small part of our portfolio in Metals X and um yeah look it's one of those that um uh I don't think the supply and uh demand dynamic has changed uh you know by materially I would say and um it just seems to be driven more by you know this flight towards miners than actually producing cash Right. And Metals X has been a value plane for for a long time. So, I'm not surprised by, you know, the recent uptick in in the company's value. Um and you know we just hope the management team you know they they've obviously gone out in in recent times to put their foot on um uh various tin um or other sort of develop tin development assets which I think really does um show what the expectation is right in the coming years. They're hoping or probably expecting or want to be well placed for uh a time, you know, when in the future when, you know, perhaps tin suppliers are more constrained and they can probably capture a lot more upside assuming that that falls to, you know, or pushes up the tin price. So that's when these sort of um fairly marginal deposits and projects become probably quite attractive in a higher price environment at some stage in the future. >> Totally. Totally. Yeah, the uh in the in the copper world, there's just a real like there's so there's so limited um bite-sized opportunities or like you know copper developers that are investable for for geological reasons, but um >> I you know and I I suspect you're the kind of investor that often does try and play uh commodities via developers. Are are there copper developers right now that you're allocating to or have allocations to? >> Um it's yeah, I think that um it's quite difficult to find um really attractive copper exposure I would say on um the ASX. I think there's you know there's a whole sort of laundry list of companies that have been um working development projects for a long time. Uh I'm thinking things like Peele or >> management. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or um Hillgrove or Hava. There's there's a whole whole range of >> of um of companies out there that are sitting on sort of deposits that you know weren't economic in yeah or haven't been economic in the past but maybe they're sort of um getting towards >> ding ding ding ding ding on both Metals X and how I should really disclose but but yeah. So you you've run the numbers over these these companies and are you are you are you thinking that they're interesting or or are you sort of maybe waiting for more catalysts? Yeah, I think they're becoming more interesting and this is where sort of um I'd probably say we're sitting we're involved in a very small way I would say at the moment but um uh I think about you know companies like Cypright which have had you know significant expenditure on on Nifty which has been a bit of a graveyard in the past mind you >> but um you know it's it's at times like this where we're seeing supply shortages that yeah may push up the copper price in the future. That's when these sort of projects, you know, will offer that promise of exceptional rewards assuming that the management team able to execute and they can get it funded and restart goes smoothly, etc. But those are sort of, you know, probably the more obvious candidates I guess. >> The talky stock that one, isn't it? >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But, you know, I mean, you you've got to be obviously conscious about what you're investing in um and and how the economics work, etc. Um but, you know, like going back to something like Havla Trav that you mentioned um you know, you look at the fact that well, you know, once upon a time they they were in a sort of joint venture with Oz Minerals, right? And that sort of demonstrates that well maybe there could be, you know, some decent potential there, right? Well, I I I I agree and that's why I own the stock. But I also think there's another part of that uh option JV with with with OS Minerals that isn't immediately obvious and that's that that option was part of the defense strategy when OSM minerals were trying to negotiate an uplift from from BHP. So they could, you know, well, look, >> whatever the sky MPV of this is, we've got to get an up and they did get an uplift eventually. But um, >> but it was I don't know if OS minerals were motivated in the near term to actually move there, but but it does point out that it was probably the best of a bad bunch if if that makes sense. I do think Caval is probably better than Rex and um and we saw what what Rex went for. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. So there's plenty of opportunity, I guess. But >> yeah, you've got to pick your battles like um you know, Sandfire is obviously the the sort of high quality exposure um on the on the boss and um you know, but is valued accordingly, right? >> Absolutely. Should we wrap up with an underrated overrated? >> I reckon we should mate >> off the top of our heads. Okay, I'll kick it off. First up, underrated, overrated, Manny ionic clay rare earth projects. Uh, overrated >> shareholder activism. >> Um, underrated >> gold at 3,700 bucks. >> Uh, underrated >> hard rock lithium. >> Oo. Um, I would say um, neutral. >> Australian government support for downstream processing. our nation in >> um yeah I think um commodity dependent >> okay >> I would say >> falcon metals >> um I would probably say overrated >> I'm not sure if you've had the chance to to look at this one but a little tin play stellar >> oh I would probably say Um, uh, I would probably say overrated. >> Uh, taking every meeting that is that a brokerage has to put in your calendar. >> Oh. Um, overrated. >> Well, taking every um Okay. Interacting with every every kind of retail punter who might reach out to you. >> Oh, okay. Um I think um overrated >> uh inflation concerns specifically in Australia. >> Uh underrated >> foreign capital moving into like taking strategic stakes in uh in in Australian assets. uh underrated >> the importance of having a major strategic shareholder when it comes to a an upand cominging mining company or junior developer. >> I would probably say uh un underrated >> money mine podcast >> underrated going to conferences. >> Um oh I would probably say overrated because I haven't gone to one yet. So >> interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I >> You haven't gone to any? >> No. No. >> Yeah. >> Never. >> Nice work. >> I I like your different views on on doing things. Like I do remember the very first time we spoke, you were Yeah. You kind of were pretty public in saying, "Yeah, I don't really meet with management too often. I like to make my own views." And I also think maybe that maybe that's changed a little bit over time, but you you were not afraid to just do things a bit differently. Yeah, I think that that is probably uh been relatively consistent. So I think that um uh you know I prefer not to meet management a great deal until we have a position. >> Yeah. But then you know it if it's a large position um then you know you you want to be sort of really uh you want you you want to have knowledge of um you want to back good people of good character and all the rest and with the right sort of um uh incentives and you know urgency I guess is probably the right word for it. So I find that um it's very valuable once we've determined that yeah we want to uh oh we want want this in the portfolio first for a decent time horizon that's when you really get the value. Um but to make the investment decision um it's yeah it's the same same situation. Have have you ever had that process built a significant position for for your fund, met management and then reverse your decision? >> Uh, no. >> Do you think it's o overrated the way that funds under management can impact returns? I think that um you have to be conscious of your capacity and that because ultimately that's what determines um the size of company that you can >> look at get involved take seriously all that sort of thing. So if you if you're running sort of like a let's call it sub 100 mil or or you know even sub50 mil that's when you micro caps become probably more attractive and uh you know it goes other way obviously there comes a point when it's like well you'd only invest in you know the largest most liquid sort of exposures. Um, and my last one is not really an overrated underrated, but I just want to know like if you look back over over the uh yeah, every new investment you've made over the last like call it 3 years, >> what is the most common way that you get idea generation? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think that um, uh, we read, you know, a hell of a lot. I think that we get a lot of benefit in uh just staying on top of um the market news. You know, just ASX reading ASX releases every morning, right? You get can get a real sort of sense of um how company's traveling um you know, sort of the the sort of ambitions of the team. That's sort of something that isn't mentioned or talked about a great deal, but ultimately um all these companies run by people, right? And you have to have that right sort of um you everything else can be perfect, but if a management team doesn't have ambition that's, you know, it'll never work out basically. Um so that's what I found. Um and you know in terms of um idea generation you know you've just got to be really uh you got to be really involved in the present I'd say you know uh not only in the market sense but what's happening around the globe right like we've seen this um become so prevalent that the market moves um uh so much due to what the you know what the commentary of um President Trump is right every every day it feels like almost you know, and and that's um a very stimulating environment for an active manager and for an active investor. So, I think that's where you sort of get the best returns by, you know, keeping a constant pulse on the market and what's happening in it. >> Manny, your results speak for themselves. So, appreciate you coming on. It's always great to chat and yeah, thanks for sharing all your thoughts with us. >> Yeah, no worries, guys. Thanks so much. >> There we go, mate. Another fantastic bit of insight from a favorite funy of money of mine, Manuel Dat. And it's all made possible thanks to our fantastic partners, Sanvic Ground Support, Focus, the platform by Market Tech. Check it out now and get your tickets to IMAK October 21 to October 23. Investors go free. >> We'll see you at IMAKU. >> Now remember, I'm an idiot. JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out a disclaimer.