Gold Pullback Changes Nothing, Monetary Reset Coming | Egon von Greyerz
Summary
Gold Outlook: Guest remains firmly bullish on gold as long-term wealth insurance, advocating physical holdings and buying during corrections.
Silver Thesis: Silver is framed as a more volatile monetary metal with superior upside versus gold, suitable as a 20–30% allocation of precious metal holdings.
Fiat Debasement: The core macro view is that all fiat currencies trend toward zero, driving the need for hard-asset protection.
Monetary Reset: Discussion centers on the end of the current monetary era and a likely forced reset with new currencies emerging after debt implosion.
US Treasuries: Strongly bearish stance on long-dated Treasuries due to unsustainable US balance sheet dynamics and rising rates.
Bond Bear Market: Expectation of a prolonged rise in interest rates into the teens, with broad bond value destruction and potential sovereign insolvencies.
Private Credit & Equity: Both asset classes are deemed late-cycle bubbles reliant on leverage and rising markets, with redemptions being gated and a high risk of capital loss.
Storage Jurisdictions: Switzerland and Singapore are highlighted as preferred locations for storing physical metals, with a stronger preference for Switzerland.
Transcript
But the trend is so clear. Every currency goes to zero. And anyone who believes anything else, you know, is a fool. And that and sure, if you want to trade short-term in and out, you might catch swings. But if you think about long-term wealth preservation, you know that there's one direction for the currency. While gold had a massive rally over the last few months, it has been taking a breather, meaning it has corrected about $1,100 as we record this here on March 25th. But we have to discuss the bigger picture. With my guest, we discussed last time that we're trending towards a monetary reset and that there might be something changing on the monetary side. The question is, are we still on track? Is it being paused? And what is really happening? We will also talk about the bond market and we'll see if we can fit in a discussion also about the private credit market because I'm really curious what my guest thinks about what is happening on that front and whether we should be actually concerned. His name by the way is Agon Funayats. He's the founder of Funayats Gold. Really excited to bring him back on. We got rave reviews when we had him on last and I'm really looking forward to his commentary now on the current situation in gold and silver of course. But before I switch over to my guest, hit that like and subscribe button. helps us out tremendously, bring phenomenal guests onto this program and we really appreciate it. Now, Egon, it's a great pleasure to welcome you back on Soore Financially. Thanks so much for taking the time. >> Kai, always a pleasure to speak to you. Um, I follow you closely and you've done very well. Um well and it's I won't say it's is if you're are a good person like you are you will do well in today's world because you wake up to some excitement every day and go to sleep with excitement every night. um not not always the the best of excitements but nevertheless it gives us a lot to talk about and a lot to worry about also of course we we should worry about the world because we are at the end of a monetary era you know and and I I we entered gold 25 years ago or $300 because I saw this coming and you know I had a I had an interview with James Turk 2011 uh when you know which we republished recently and I'm I said the same in 2011 that I'm going to tell you today. So from that point of view, I'm a pretty boring interviewee because I don't change my mind. But nevertheless, there are always new things happening. So pleasures to talk about. >> Well, then let's talk about the nuances around the main maybe theory or main topic, right? The the nuances. Um because we talked in October last and uh we we discussed the monetary or the end of a monetary era and uh just looking at the price action in gold. We could have said okay this is happening right now but now gold gold price is taking a bit of a breather. Egon um has has anything changed since we last spoke in October on on that monetary reset um theory? >> No Kai um it is it is very simple. you know, the the the trends are so clear and these are long-term trends. Uh we should not be uh in any way well concerned about whatever happens short term because the the scene is set uh and this scene is very clear. You know, we we will we are having the moves that are required to to reach the end of this monetary era. Whether that takes another 10 years or or or whatever, it doesn't matter. Uh the the easiest way obviously to read it is always in in gold terms. But gold doesn't go straight up. You know that we I'm I I was I was working when gold the gold window was closed by Nixon in 71. And remember that well $35, but I we entered as I just said the gold market in in early 2000s at $300. Um, and nothing is changing. The price changes, of course. It can't go straight up. You know, sadly, gold buyers or precious metals buyers love to buy high when something's happening to the price. Uh, and they also, some of them sadly also love to sell when it goes down. Well, they don't love to, but then they get scared straight away. Luckily, we have primarily wealthpreservation investors who don't worry about these short swings. But coming back to what's happening in the world. No, you know if to me the end goal is set and then we'll have to have a number of events uh that makes that happen. You know that's that is my very strong view and it's like Neil House's fourth turning. It's not I don't follow that in particular but that's another very good way of explaining it. We are at the end of an era and then you know at the end of that era debt will grow exponentially. Inflation will go very high. Um interest rates will be very high. There will be geopolitical events that triggered it also. But they're not the reason for it. They there they are just events uh or catalysts uh because the trend would have happened anyway. uh and of course then we have you know the whole the banking system is going to fail uh hopefully not totally but it's not impossible. So um and you know the the US Treasury issued a report recently that shows that liability of about 40 uh what is it liabilities of 43 trill 48 trillion dollars. This is the US balance sheet um and um the um and assets $6 trillion. And if you add unfunded liabilities, you get up to $100 trillion. So again, $6 trillion assets. That is the balance sheet of for anyone who's ever looked balance at balance sheets. That is the balance sheet of a bankrupt country or if it was a company, it would be a bankrupt company and it would fail. No one would ever accept any debt issued by that company or in this case this sovereign nation being the USA. uh and therefore I cannot for the life of me ever understand who how anyone can buy US treasuries especially longdated ones of course because they are totally worthless and that's was this what this balance sheet shows and that trend is going to accelerate in the coming years and and and and you know if you look at debt um debt has gone up 43 times since 1980 and tax revenue has gone up five times. How do you think ever that that debt is going to be repaid? No, never. It will be just more treasuries issued that would be totally worthless. >> Absolutely. And u I think we'll get a little more granular because I do have a question to follow up. Um we when we last spoke of course we talked about all the central banks buying gold. Um now it seems like they're more sellers just because of liquidity reasons. And ju just again today headline read uh banks might be selling their gold just to raise liquidity in their accounts because they they can't generate any other revenues right now especially BRICS countries and I'm talking also Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates. Um how is that maybe shifting the timeline back? What we're seeing right now these geopolitical events are they shifting the timeline even back or are they accelerating them? >> I think it's accelerating. I don't I don't I don't think there's any major selling at all. I mean this is a nice you know a nice piece of news that's been being sent around the world you know th this is this selling is marginal in relation to to the size now we're talking about on the buying we've seen in the last few months so u I I would not be concerned about that at all uh you know the the we have to have adjustments we have to have corrections and when they happen of course people will then find reasons why they happen but the trend is so clear this correction yes it was bigger than I expected also but it doesn't going to change at all what I see and I see things accelerating um in within the next few months uh probably sooner than we expect that means accelerating in in well the problems in the world uh the the the the debt increase or the growth of debt the growth of inflation And the price of gold and silver will be reflected by that by by by what's happening in the world of course. And I see still gold and silver going up substantially this year and over the next 10 years by multiples and nothing is going to change that. >> Well, we've long argued that uh gold is wealth insurance. It's not supposed to be a trade. It's something you buy and hold. How should investors now sort of behave during the selloff or maybe phase of weakness? Like is this an opportunity to buy the dip or just hold and wait and what's the correct behavior here? >> Well, you know, we we invested in gold as I said heavily in 19 so in in 2002 at $300. We obviously never sold anything ourselves. Um and our cl most of our clients have been with us the whole time and of course a lot of new clients are coming in. Uh the the selling is very marginal because we have the wealth preservation clients. The clients who hold gold for the right reason and and you know as long as you are not leveraging which you should never do. You should hold physical gold store it in in you know the the right place um and and never sell it. If you need some for liquidity, of course, yes, you do sell some, but nevertheless, uh, overall, just hold it and never worry about the price because the price is going to do what we know is going to happen at the end of a monetary era. And of course, there will be corrections, but people shouldn't be scared. You know it's so you for thousands of years currencies have gone to zero and this one is is now the the present monetary system is going to zero this time also and therefore don't worry about the short term stick with your gold stick with your silver hold it in physical form and don't look at the price every day it's going to be a lot higher in the next within the next few years or or or even sooner but but it's going to probably go up for another 10 years I would say and that's an arbitrary arbitrary date but although I actually have a a long-term cyclical top uh in 10 years time whether that will be right or not we will see I will be quite old in 10 years time but I'll I'll be there still I have to I have to follow it and see what happens >> you're you're not selling either right so um but Egon you mentioned of course you were a little surprised perhaps by the uh the the crash the correction or the extent of the correction Let's call it that. Would it would there have been a point where you would have say gotten nervous about the correction? Maybe this is over cororrecting. Maybe this is now trending the wrong way. Uh maybe going much lower. Maybe back to 2000. Is would there would there have been a certain point? >> Never. Never. You know the my my view about the world and about the world economy uh and and gold and silver prices are a consequence of the world economy. uh and therefore uh that view is never going to change whatever happens because nothing in my view can happen now that changes the long-term direction of uh fiat money. It always goes to zero without fail in every single monetary system throughout history. It's gone to zero. So now it's in this system now since 1913 when the Fed was founded um most currencies are down 99%. So we have that final 1% to go but that final 1% remember is 100% from here and that's going to happen and that fall of 100% we are going to experience and that obviously leads to massive uh debt debt growth massive inflation high interest rates and a lot of problems around the world in the world also. So nothing nothing can change my my very firm view. Um and that that we are going to see the end of this monetary system within say roughly 10 years. >> Now um let's talk about silver real quick in the same context. Um it has moved more violently. Um typical silver silver behavior it's more erratic of course but um c can you frame silver for us as well? Do you have a thesis on on on silver? Is it behaving the same way it should in in in the or it has in the past and how will behave moving forward? Of course. >> Yes. Yes. Silver is absolutely be behaving as it should and as it does. Uh and that's why from the beginning we told our investors if you want to this is 25 years ago. If you want to sleep well at night just hold gold. If you want a fantastic roller coaster journey uh which is still up but with massive swings, hold some silver. Uh but silver is not for widows and orphans. >> And and most of the time, you know, we told clients who want to just feel safe, hold just gold. Now with the silver price now, even with the correction we've had um uh or with the big move we've had before the correction, this silver is going to go up substantially faster than gold in the next few years. So definitely it is a very good investment opportunity and therefore it would be right to hold silver let's say to the extent of 20 to 30% of your total gold and silver assets not more I would say if you're not a speculator we don't deal with speculators we deal with long-term holders and therefore yes hold some silver and just don't look at the price because it I mean the the price rises are fant fantastic. You know, everybody loves it, but nobody or very few people can actually live with the massive cor corrections we see in silver. And we've seen it this time again. It's very normal. It just gives us a, you know, a very very good opportunity. If you're not fully invested, you should buy when when silver and gold correct. You should not buy when they go up to new highs. But even if you buy at the new highs uh you are going to make money in the next 10 years I'm quite convinced but nevertheless this is an opportunity for the ones who are not fully invested in gold or silver to buy more but remember by physical leverages and buy it buy it and hold it for you I I say five 10 years I would say up to 10 years >> in in that same like sort of breath you still consider like silver a monetary metal in that regard. Is it still in the same category as gold for you? >> Yes, throughout history it has been and it has been money of course and I was yes, it's still a monetary metal but a much more volatile one. Um and of course it's also as we we know an industrial me metal but I I think right now of course there's massive demand uh for silver uh in industrial demand whe whether it's solar panels or whether it's car batteries or whether it's um weapons um and or medical. that the years is is very major demand. But of course, if we get the downturn which I expect in the world that demand might decline, but that will be more than offset by uh silver becoming a a more pure monetary metal again. Um and therefore you remember remember that silver is poor man's gold and it's still a lot cheaper than gold um with a with a more over 50/50 ratio and therefore you know I still think that the long-term ratio will probably go to the the old historical one or 15 or and as prices normally do at the end of years it could easily overshoot and go down to 10 also that is that the the silver price is is u or or or the gold price is 10 times the silver price and right now as I said is well over 50. Uh so I you know the opportunity is there but the ride will be a roller coaster ride. So as I said don't buy too much silver but to have some I think is is responsible. >> Absolutely. Um Egon let's zoom out a little bit. you touched on the bond market earlier cuz um Simon Hunt calls it the root of all evil of course and I picked up you're not a big fan of the US bond market or treasury market in general as well. Um of course yields have been rising as of late. Um are are you seeing the cracks forming now? Like what what is the bond market telling you at this point or should we not over interpret any anything into it right now? >> Well, the bond market is telling me what that trend is very clear now. It's not a clean trend in bonds because uh bond prices uh are manipulated through the the interest rates of course and and therefore you know I I said a long time ago probably over 20 years ago I I said that interest rates uh long-term will go up and and the long rates will pull up the short rates and that's exactly what we are seeing now and you know interest rates turned around nu uh 202021 um after that long-term fall of rates and and now it is so clear this trend is going to go on for a very long time and we're going to see rates in at least in the teens of course if if if we get insolveny so sovereign insolvenies in Japan in the US and many other countries rates will go go a lot higher of course and in the end there might be like all bonds were in the old days like in Germany you know there'll be there'll be uh papers that well you don't hold paper bonds anymore but if you did you you know people put them as you know uh in their in their in their l toilets on the wall as decoration and I think that's probably what we will see again because you know they will most bones will become worthless in my view >> sadly while talking about decorations I got some Venez and bolivar bully what do they call it? Republica Bulivarana de Venezuela some bolivares here as my decoration for the studio right because I think I picked them up for five bucks and I'm not sure how much it is actually I never counted it but it's a lot of worthless paper >> yes it's like the Zimbabwe dollar etc. I mean, you know, history is full of these, of course. Um, and now the beauty for governments is that they don't need to print anymore on paper. They just add another zero and another s another zero. Um, I just found 50,000 LAR Italian LRA. I had that in my in an old wallet. I just saw I know. And okay, I mean, they they took a couple of zeros off, but that wasn't that long ago. that was probably in the I can't remember ' 70s or something or and uh you know this happens to every currency throughout history. So it's so simple that's why you know forecasting it it's so easy that forecasting the trend of of the world's monetary system. It's so easy because there is no exception. The only exception is if it takes a little bit longer or a little bit shorter. But the trend is so clear. Every currency goes to zero. And anyone who believes anything else, you know, is a fool. And that and sure, if you want to trade short-term in and out, you might catch swings. But if you think about long-term wealth preservation, you know that there's one direction for the currency. Of course, there are periods when there is economic stability and and therefore there's no inflation and and no government debt and no deficits, but we haven't seen that for a long time. And as I say, when all of that happens, which will happen one day, but that's when probably elephants will fly too. So, well, I don't think we're going to see that for a while. >> Yeah. No, I I I believe that. So, Darwin is like Darwin like I think the evolution we're not there yet. So it'll it'll be a little while, right? Um and also on that note of devaluing currencies, Iran just issued a new 10 million realale um bill as well to to to deal with inflation because they got 47% inflation in Iran right now as well. So they felt the need to issue new bills as well, higher bills. So um on that note um but um I I mentioned in the intro uh Egon maybe coming back to the the debt situation and maybe the macroeconomic or economic shocks that we're seeing in the markets right now is the private credit and the private debt market as well. How how closely are you following that? Is that something you're watching very closely uh as maybe something that brings down the system? >> Well of yes of course I follow it not in detail. My my colleague Matt Pyenberg has written about it recently, a very good article. And of course, you to me it was clear that private equity is a massive B bubble that happens at the end uh again of a monetary system. It it's it's a totally false market. Um and it depends totally on massive leverage number one and a rising stock market number two. And that's what we have seen now in the last well you could say 50 years. Um and that so private equity is coming to an end and a lot of these people would be holding uh just debt and no no assets uh assets will go go down dramatically um and and the debt will not be repaid. So private equity system uh is going to fall and fail. Um and this the same with the the private credit uh that is more recent than private equity but private equity is the same private credit is the same you know this so people set up a company borrow money cheaply um and and then lend it out expensively and then people think that that the yields they get you they're on of 10% or 12% or whatever they get depending on the risk they take they think that that they are real yields. No, all they're paying for is massive ris risk and that risk is going to cost them the whole of the capital that they put into this and and therefore you know those two sectors um are going to yes they're going to collapse totally in my view. So, so people who don't get out now and of course people are getting out, people are trying and a lot of these private credit funds have now blocked redemptions um or or limited them to very small amounts like five five I can't remember what it was was it five million or in a month or something for for an investor. Anyway, low amounts and people they are going to be totally frozen those funds. people are not going to be able to take out their assets and they will sit there with an investment that goes down to zero. Take my word for it. That's going to happen. >> Absolutely. Maybe Egon to to sort of summarize your theory a little bit like what does the actual endgame look like and what should we be paying attention to? Is it capital controls? Is it inflation? Um what should we be paying attention to? >> Yes. Um I Well, obviously the money printing will continue. So government debts will increase. Uh interest rates will go up. Um so there'll be massive money printing. Uh there will be uh at this there'll be in real terms all bubble assets will collapse. Uh that in that I include stock market obviously uh the bond market um property market also. That's in real terms. Of course, if we get higher inflation, they might be higher in nominal terms, but that's irrelevant. Um, so um you know that the what happens at the very end will there be a total collapse of the financial system? I yeah I don't actually think that this time like in 2008 um that the central banks can save the system because it's now totally global and some it's of a magnitude that can't be saved. So I I would suggest that the system will or or major parts of the system will collapse. There will be sovereign defaults. They might not call it default but nevertheless it will be technical defaults. Sorry. And and consequently, you know, it'll be a it'll be a horrible horrible time for the world. >> Now, at the end of it, you will have, of course, an implosion of debt. uh debt will become worthless and nothing will be repaid and then at some point whether that's in 10 years the there will be a reset but that's a forced reset not I wouldn't call it a a structured reset but out of that will be a phoenix type of new currencies coming um but remember that when debt collapses all the assets that uh this debt was backing all those assets will also collapse. So and of course gold and silver will uh gold and silver will reflect this. Um now in real terms gold and silver probably will go up a bit uh a bit uh even at the end of this era but but you know that's not why you h hold it. you hold it because that in in purchasing power terms uh you could still use your your gold directly or indirectly um to pay for things that in in gold terms have not increased um and never has in in history. You know, I've jokingly been saying uh that uh in in speeches and and interviews I've done that um the uh it's totally wrong to measure your assets in dollars or in euros or yen in fiat currencies because you know you measured you're measuring your assets in something that is going down by the day. So I I've I've said you should measure it in cows or chickens. Now I did uh then started looking at into that uh thoroughly and and I found that in in in cows prices have uh not moved really for 5,000 years. Uh the price of a cow in gold terms has been between a half an ounce and 1 ounce of gold for for a cow. So that that is quite amazing. So the the what started as as not a joke but as just a more fair comparison what how you should measure your wealth. You know you actually couldn't measure it in cows. Now we found a better way which is gold of course but that's the only way to measure it. Don't measure it in dollars. Don't measure it in euros. They're worthless. You're just fooling yourself. You you're just making it look a lot better than it is the situation. Um and and um so you know in in real terms you will maintain your purchasing power and that's all you need in order to survive financially the coming crisis. There'll be a lot of other problems in the world but at least if your financial position is safeguarded that is a very important part of surviving the the crisis which is coming. Egon, allow me your last question which sort of touches on your business model as well, but where where is it safest to store gold right now givingven the turmoil in the Middle East for example? Um, where would you or where where is it safest these days? >> Well, you know, we look at this all the time. Um, Kai and the uh, of course, the world isn't safe anymore and the world isn't as safe as it was, you know, as as we see now in modern wars. you you can send a missile or a drone anywhere in the world. Now, so we have to look at political systems here uh to to decide uh where the gold is the safest and of course then you have to have look at systems that have survived for a very long time. And uh you know the the two main areas that we believe are the safest now are are Switzerland number one and Singapore number two. Um the the they are very good political systems. The the advantage that Switzerland has that it has been a democracy uh for hundreds of years. uh while Singapore is a new nation with a with a population which is not homogeneous um and Singapore is more is nearer you know between the Middle East and the Far East. So it is near war zones currently anyway uh than what Switzerland is and I don't expect a major war in Europe. I don't expect Russia that some people fear to to come into Europe to Western Europe. They never have of course they've been invaded three times in the last 300 years. So um there's I I still think that both the political and the monetary system in Switzerland is the best in the world because I am Swiss. I am also Swedish. I I was born with two passports. So you could say that I'm prejudiced but but you know that I I moved to Switzerland from Sweden where I was born and educated because I felt that this was absolutely the best uh uh country in the world when it when it comes to a holding your money and b also uh from a political uh point of view. you know the just the just the point of direct democracy that we have in Switzerland that that you can basic that you the people can vote about anything if they if they want to and that becomes that becomes part of the constitution you know an individual can actually start a a referendum on on on the price of sugar for example uh and that could become then part of of the constitution now So it it is the best political system in the world and it's a very very stable country. Um and of course it's it's full of mountains everywhere. Singapore has no mountains. You know, I'd rather have a vault into the deep mountain in Switzerland than a building sticking up 25 m in Singapore >> because you know now drones can easily hit anything on the ground or above ground and and therefore you know so I have a preference with Switzerland there but Singapore is a good country also but right now I mean as the we had discussion internally a few months ago and somebody suggested did no this is a cashi maybe a year ago year and a half ago somebody suggested way store in Dubai because it's grown tremendously and lots of money there I but I absolutely I've lived long enough to to um to experience a lot of conflict in the Middle East during my lifetime and I would personally never recommend anyone to store gold in Dubai. I said that already you one two three years ago. Um and of course saw we saw another conflict when Dubai is being attacked. Yes, luckily this infrastructure is still there. You never know what's going to happen but the risk is such that I wouldn't personally store any gold in in Dubai. Um so as I said so there are not many places left but Switzerland and Singapore are the two important ones that people should consider. >> Fantastic. Egon I tremendously enjoy our conversations every time you come on. and I I enjoy them tremendously. Um, where can we send our audience to follow your work? Uh, I know you mentioned Matthew's articles, but also where can they reach out to potentially work with you? >> Yeah, so our website is uh voners.gold or or vg.gold. Um, and um, we also have a Substack handle voners. Uh and uh I I would um yes I would recommend people to go to these I I write less now I do more YouTube videos short ones also um and but Matt Matt writes fantastic articles um about the world situation. So go to the website and you'll find it all or search on YouTube or our handle which is called Switzerland our handle on on YouTube. Um and um you will let get a lot of useful information. >> Fantastic Egon. Really really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for your time today. Can't wait to do this again soon. Hopefully I'll see you again in Zurich one of these days. Um I'm not sure when I'll be bit down yet, but I'd love to catch up with you in person again. So, thanks so much for coming on and uh everybody else, thank you so much for tuning in. Tremendously appreciate you watching sore financially to get educated about what is happening in the markets. Is the monetary reset still coming? EGOT said there's no deviation from the plan. It it will be happening and don't be fooled by the dips in price. Um it doesn't really make a difference. So, thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this, hit that like and subscribe button. Means a lot to us and I said it before, don't let emotions run your investments for you. Take care.
Gold Pullback Changes Nothing, Monetary Reset Coming | Egon von Greyerz
Summary
Transcript
But the trend is so clear. Every currency goes to zero. And anyone who believes anything else, you know, is a fool. And that and sure, if you want to trade short-term in and out, you might catch swings. But if you think about long-term wealth preservation, you know that there's one direction for the currency. While gold had a massive rally over the last few months, it has been taking a breather, meaning it has corrected about $1,100 as we record this here on March 25th. But we have to discuss the bigger picture. With my guest, we discussed last time that we're trending towards a monetary reset and that there might be something changing on the monetary side. The question is, are we still on track? Is it being paused? And what is really happening? We will also talk about the bond market and we'll see if we can fit in a discussion also about the private credit market because I'm really curious what my guest thinks about what is happening on that front and whether we should be actually concerned. His name by the way is Agon Funayats. He's the founder of Funayats Gold. Really excited to bring him back on. We got rave reviews when we had him on last and I'm really looking forward to his commentary now on the current situation in gold and silver of course. But before I switch over to my guest, hit that like and subscribe button. helps us out tremendously, bring phenomenal guests onto this program and we really appreciate it. Now, Egon, it's a great pleasure to welcome you back on Soore Financially. Thanks so much for taking the time. >> Kai, always a pleasure to speak to you. Um, I follow you closely and you've done very well. Um well and it's I won't say it's is if you're are a good person like you are you will do well in today's world because you wake up to some excitement every day and go to sleep with excitement every night. um not not always the the best of excitements but nevertheless it gives us a lot to talk about and a lot to worry about also of course we we should worry about the world because we are at the end of a monetary era you know and and I I we entered gold 25 years ago or $300 because I saw this coming and you know I had a I had an interview with James Turk 2011 uh when you know which we republished recently and I'm I said the same in 2011 that I'm going to tell you today. So from that point of view, I'm a pretty boring interviewee because I don't change my mind. But nevertheless, there are always new things happening. So pleasures to talk about. >> Well, then let's talk about the nuances around the main maybe theory or main topic, right? The the nuances. Um because we talked in October last and uh we we discussed the monetary or the end of a monetary era and uh just looking at the price action in gold. We could have said okay this is happening right now but now gold gold price is taking a bit of a breather. Egon um has has anything changed since we last spoke in October on on that monetary reset um theory? >> No Kai um it is it is very simple. you know, the the the trends are so clear and these are long-term trends. Uh we should not be uh in any way well concerned about whatever happens short term because the the scene is set uh and this scene is very clear. You know, we we will we are having the moves that are required to to reach the end of this monetary era. Whether that takes another 10 years or or or whatever, it doesn't matter. Uh the the easiest way obviously to read it is always in in gold terms. But gold doesn't go straight up. You know that we I'm I I was I was working when gold the gold window was closed by Nixon in 71. And remember that well $35, but I we entered as I just said the gold market in in early 2000s at $300. Um, and nothing is changing. The price changes, of course. It can't go straight up. You know, sadly, gold buyers or precious metals buyers love to buy high when something's happening to the price. Uh, and they also, some of them sadly also love to sell when it goes down. Well, they don't love to, but then they get scared straight away. Luckily, we have primarily wealthpreservation investors who don't worry about these short swings. But coming back to what's happening in the world. No, you know if to me the end goal is set and then we'll have to have a number of events uh that makes that happen. You know that's that is my very strong view and it's like Neil House's fourth turning. It's not I don't follow that in particular but that's another very good way of explaining it. We are at the end of an era and then you know at the end of that era debt will grow exponentially. Inflation will go very high. Um interest rates will be very high. There will be geopolitical events that triggered it also. But they're not the reason for it. They there they are just events uh or catalysts uh because the trend would have happened anyway. uh and of course then we have you know the whole the banking system is going to fail uh hopefully not totally but it's not impossible. So um and you know the the US Treasury issued a report recently that shows that liability of about 40 uh what is it liabilities of 43 trill 48 trillion dollars. This is the US balance sheet um and um the um and assets $6 trillion. And if you add unfunded liabilities, you get up to $100 trillion. So again, $6 trillion assets. That is the balance sheet of for anyone who's ever looked balance at balance sheets. That is the balance sheet of a bankrupt country or if it was a company, it would be a bankrupt company and it would fail. No one would ever accept any debt issued by that company or in this case this sovereign nation being the USA. uh and therefore I cannot for the life of me ever understand who how anyone can buy US treasuries especially longdated ones of course because they are totally worthless and that's was this what this balance sheet shows and that trend is going to accelerate in the coming years and and and and you know if you look at debt um debt has gone up 43 times since 1980 and tax revenue has gone up five times. How do you think ever that that debt is going to be repaid? No, never. It will be just more treasuries issued that would be totally worthless. >> Absolutely. And u I think we'll get a little more granular because I do have a question to follow up. Um we when we last spoke of course we talked about all the central banks buying gold. Um now it seems like they're more sellers just because of liquidity reasons. And ju just again today headline read uh banks might be selling their gold just to raise liquidity in their accounts because they they can't generate any other revenues right now especially BRICS countries and I'm talking also Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates. Um how is that maybe shifting the timeline back? What we're seeing right now these geopolitical events are they shifting the timeline even back or are they accelerating them? >> I think it's accelerating. I don't I don't I don't think there's any major selling at all. I mean this is a nice you know a nice piece of news that's been being sent around the world you know th this is this selling is marginal in relation to to the size now we're talking about on the buying we've seen in the last few months so u I I would not be concerned about that at all uh you know the the we have to have adjustments we have to have corrections and when they happen of course people will then find reasons why they happen but the trend is so clear this correction yes it was bigger than I expected also but it doesn't going to change at all what I see and I see things accelerating um in within the next few months uh probably sooner than we expect that means accelerating in in well the problems in the world uh the the the the debt increase or the growth of debt the growth of inflation And the price of gold and silver will be reflected by that by by by what's happening in the world of course. And I see still gold and silver going up substantially this year and over the next 10 years by multiples and nothing is going to change that. >> Well, we've long argued that uh gold is wealth insurance. It's not supposed to be a trade. It's something you buy and hold. How should investors now sort of behave during the selloff or maybe phase of weakness? Like is this an opportunity to buy the dip or just hold and wait and what's the correct behavior here? >> Well, you know, we we invested in gold as I said heavily in 19 so in in 2002 at $300. We obviously never sold anything ourselves. Um and our cl most of our clients have been with us the whole time and of course a lot of new clients are coming in. Uh the the selling is very marginal because we have the wealth preservation clients. The clients who hold gold for the right reason and and you know as long as you are not leveraging which you should never do. You should hold physical gold store it in in you know the the right place um and and never sell it. If you need some for liquidity, of course, yes, you do sell some, but nevertheless, uh, overall, just hold it and never worry about the price because the price is going to do what we know is going to happen at the end of a monetary era. And of course, there will be corrections, but people shouldn't be scared. You know it's so you for thousands of years currencies have gone to zero and this one is is now the the present monetary system is going to zero this time also and therefore don't worry about the short term stick with your gold stick with your silver hold it in physical form and don't look at the price every day it's going to be a lot higher in the next within the next few years or or or even sooner but but it's going to probably go up for another 10 years I would say and that's an arbitrary arbitrary date but although I actually have a a long-term cyclical top uh in 10 years time whether that will be right or not we will see I will be quite old in 10 years time but I'll I'll be there still I have to I have to follow it and see what happens >> you're you're not selling either right so um but Egon you mentioned of course you were a little surprised perhaps by the uh the the crash the correction or the extent of the correction Let's call it that. Would it would there have been a point where you would have say gotten nervous about the correction? Maybe this is over cororrecting. Maybe this is now trending the wrong way. Uh maybe going much lower. Maybe back to 2000. Is would there would there have been a certain point? >> Never. Never. You know the my my view about the world and about the world economy uh and and gold and silver prices are a consequence of the world economy. uh and therefore uh that view is never going to change whatever happens because nothing in my view can happen now that changes the long-term direction of uh fiat money. It always goes to zero without fail in every single monetary system throughout history. It's gone to zero. So now it's in this system now since 1913 when the Fed was founded um most currencies are down 99%. So we have that final 1% to go but that final 1% remember is 100% from here and that's going to happen and that fall of 100% we are going to experience and that obviously leads to massive uh debt debt growth massive inflation high interest rates and a lot of problems around the world in the world also. So nothing nothing can change my my very firm view. Um and that that we are going to see the end of this monetary system within say roughly 10 years. >> Now um let's talk about silver real quick in the same context. Um it has moved more violently. Um typical silver silver behavior it's more erratic of course but um c can you frame silver for us as well? Do you have a thesis on on on silver? Is it behaving the same way it should in in in the or it has in the past and how will behave moving forward? Of course. >> Yes. Yes. Silver is absolutely be behaving as it should and as it does. Uh and that's why from the beginning we told our investors if you want to this is 25 years ago. If you want to sleep well at night just hold gold. If you want a fantastic roller coaster journey uh which is still up but with massive swings, hold some silver. Uh but silver is not for widows and orphans. >> And and most of the time, you know, we told clients who want to just feel safe, hold just gold. Now with the silver price now, even with the correction we've had um uh or with the big move we've had before the correction, this silver is going to go up substantially faster than gold in the next few years. So definitely it is a very good investment opportunity and therefore it would be right to hold silver let's say to the extent of 20 to 30% of your total gold and silver assets not more I would say if you're not a speculator we don't deal with speculators we deal with long-term holders and therefore yes hold some silver and just don't look at the price because it I mean the the price rises are fant fantastic. You know, everybody loves it, but nobody or very few people can actually live with the massive cor corrections we see in silver. And we've seen it this time again. It's very normal. It just gives us a, you know, a very very good opportunity. If you're not fully invested, you should buy when when silver and gold correct. You should not buy when they go up to new highs. But even if you buy at the new highs uh you are going to make money in the next 10 years I'm quite convinced but nevertheless this is an opportunity for the ones who are not fully invested in gold or silver to buy more but remember by physical leverages and buy it buy it and hold it for you I I say five 10 years I would say up to 10 years >> in in that same like sort of breath you still consider like silver a monetary metal in that regard. Is it still in the same category as gold for you? >> Yes, throughout history it has been and it has been money of course and I was yes, it's still a monetary metal but a much more volatile one. Um and of course it's also as we we know an industrial me metal but I I think right now of course there's massive demand uh for silver uh in industrial demand whe whether it's solar panels or whether it's car batteries or whether it's um weapons um and or medical. that the years is is very major demand. But of course, if we get the downturn which I expect in the world that demand might decline, but that will be more than offset by uh silver becoming a a more pure monetary metal again. Um and therefore you remember remember that silver is poor man's gold and it's still a lot cheaper than gold um with a with a more over 50/50 ratio and therefore you know I still think that the long-term ratio will probably go to the the old historical one or 15 or and as prices normally do at the end of years it could easily overshoot and go down to 10 also that is that the the silver price is is u or or or the gold price is 10 times the silver price and right now as I said is well over 50. Uh so I you know the opportunity is there but the ride will be a roller coaster ride. So as I said don't buy too much silver but to have some I think is is responsible. >> Absolutely. Um Egon let's zoom out a little bit. you touched on the bond market earlier cuz um Simon Hunt calls it the root of all evil of course and I picked up you're not a big fan of the US bond market or treasury market in general as well. Um of course yields have been rising as of late. Um are are you seeing the cracks forming now? Like what what is the bond market telling you at this point or should we not over interpret any anything into it right now? >> Well, the bond market is telling me what that trend is very clear now. It's not a clean trend in bonds because uh bond prices uh are manipulated through the the interest rates of course and and therefore you know I I said a long time ago probably over 20 years ago I I said that interest rates uh long-term will go up and and the long rates will pull up the short rates and that's exactly what we are seeing now and you know interest rates turned around nu uh 202021 um after that long-term fall of rates and and now it is so clear this trend is going to go on for a very long time and we're going to see rates in at least in the teens of course if if if we get insolveny so sovereign insolvenies in Japan in the US and many other countries rates will go go a lot higher of course and in the end there might be like all bonds were in the old days like in Germany you know there'll be there'll be uh papers that well you don't hold paper bonds anymore but if you did you you know people put them as you know uh in their in their in their l toilets on the wall as decoration and I think that's probably what we will see again because you know they will most bones will become worthless in my view >> sadly while talking about decorations I got some Venez and bolivar bully what do they call it? Republica Bulivarana de Venezuela some bolivares here as my decoration for the studio right because I think I picked them up for five bucks and I'm not sure how much it is actually I never counted it but it's a lot of worthless paper >> yes it's like the Zimbabwe dollar etc. I mean, you know, history is full of these, of course. Um, and now the beauty for governments is that they don't need to print anymore on paper. They just add another zero and another s another zero. Um, I just found 50,000 LAR Italian LRA. I had that in my in an old wallet. I just saw I know. And okay, I mean, they they took a couple of zeros off, but that wasn't that long ago. that was probably in the I can't remember ' 70s or something or and uh you know this happens to every currency throughout history. So it's so simple that's why you know forecasting it it's so easy that forecasting the trend of of the world's monetary system. It's so easy because there is no exception. The only exception is if it takes a little bit longer or a little bit shorter. But the trend is so clear. Every currency goes to zero. And anyone who believes anything else, you know, is a fool. And that and sure, if you want to trade short-term in and out, you might catch swings. But if you think about long-term wealth preservation, you know that there's one direction for the currency. Of course, there are periods when there is economic stability and and therefore there's no inflation and and no government debt and no deficits, but we haven't seen that for a long time. And as I say, when all of that happens, which will happen one day, but that's when probably elephants will fly too. So, well, I don't think we're going to see that for a while. >> Yeah. No, I I I believe that. So, Darwin is like Darwin like I think the evolution we're not there yet. So it'll it'll be a little while, right? Um and also on that note of devaluing currencies, Iran just issued a new 10 million realale um bill as well to to to deal with inflation because they got 47% inflation in Iran right now as well. So they felt the need to issue new bills as well, higher bills. So um on that note um but um I I mentioned in the intro uh Egon maybe coming back to the the debt situation and maybe the macroeconomic or economic shocks that we're seeing in the markets right now is the private credit and the private debt market as well. How how closely are you following that? Is that something you're watching very closely uh as maybe something that brings down the system? >> Well of yes of course I follow it not in detail. My my colleague Matt Pyenberg has written about it recently, a very good article. And of course, you to me it was clear that private equity is a massive B bubble that happens at the end uh again of a monetary system. It it's it's a totally false market. Um and it depends totally on massive leverage number one and a rising stock market number two. And that's what we have seen now in the last well you could say 50 years. Um and that so private equity is coming to an end and a lot of these people would be holding uh just debt and no no assets uh assets will go go down dramatically um and and the debt will not be repaid. So private equity system uh is going to fall and fail. Um and this the same with the the private credit uh that is more recent than private equity but private equity is the same private credit is the same you know this so people set up a company borrow money cheaply um and and then lend it out expensively and then people think that that the yields they get you they're on of 10% or 12% or whatever they get depending on the risk they take they think that that they are real yields. No, all they're paying for is massive ris risk and that risk is going to cost them the whole of the capital that they put into this and and therefore you know those two sectors um are going to yes they're going to collapse totally in my view. So, so people who don't get out now and of course people are getting out, people are trying and a lot of these private credit funds have now blocked redemptions um or or limited them to very small amounts like five five I can't remember what it was was it five million or in a month or something for for an investor. Anyway, low amounts and people they are going to be totally frozen those funds. people are not going to be able to take out their assets and they will sit there with an investment that goes down to zero. Take my word for it. That's going to happen. >> Absolutely. Maybe Egon to to sort of summarize your theory a little bit like what does the actual endgame look like and what should we be paying attention to? Is it capital controls? Is it inflation? Um what should we be paying attention to? >> Yes. Um I Well, obviously the money printing will continue. So government debts will increase. Uh interest rates will go up. Um so there'll be massive money printing. Uh there will be uh at this there'll be in real terms all bubble assets will collapse. Uh that in that I include stock market obviously uh the bond market um property market also. That's in real terms. Of course, if we get higher inflation, they might be higher in nominal terms, but that's irrelevant. Um, so um you know that the what happens at the very end will there be a total collapse of the financial system? I yeah I don't actually think that this time like in 2008 um that the central banks can save the system because it's now totally global and some it's of a magnitude that can't be saved. So I I would suggest that the system will or or major parts of the system will collapse. There will be sovereign defaults. They might not call it default but nevertheless it will be technical defaults. Sorry. And and consequently, you know, it'll be a it'll be a horrible horrible time for the world. >> Now, at the end of it, you will have, of course, an implosion of debt. uh debt will become worthless and nothing will be repaid and then at some point whether that's in 10 years the there will be a reset but that's a forced reset not I wouldn't call it a a structured reset but out of that will be a phoenix type of new currencies coming um but remember that when debt collapses all the assets that uh this debt was backing all those assets will also collapse. So and of course gold and silver will uh gold and silver will reflect this. Um now in real terms gold and silver probably will go up a bit uh a bit uh even at the end of this era but but you know that's not why you h hold it. you hold it because that in in purchasing power terms uh you could still use your your gold directly or indirectly um to pay for things that in in gold terms have not increased um and never has in in history. You know, I've jokingly been saying uh that uh in in speeches and and interviews I've done that um the uh it's totally wrong to measure your assets in dollars or in euros or yen in fiat currencies because you know you measured you're measuring your assets in something that is going down by the day. So I I've I've said you should measure it in cows or chickens. Now I did uh then started looking at into that uh thoroughly and and I found that in in in cows prices have uh not moved really for 5,000 years. Uh the price of a cow in gold terms has been between a half an ounce and 1 ounce of gold for for a cow. So that that is quite amazing. So the the what started as as not a joke but as just a more fair comparison what how you should measure your wealth. You know you actually couldn't measure it in cows. Now we found a better way which is gold of course but that's the only way to measure it. Don't measure it in dollars. Don't measure it in euros. They're worthless. You're just fooling yourself. You you're just making it look a lot better than it is the situation. Um and and um so you know in in real terms you will maintain your purchasing power and that's all you need in order to survive financially the coming crisis. There'll be a lot of other problems in the world but at least if your financial position is safeguarded that is a very important part of surviving the the crisis which is coming. Egon, allow me your last question which sort of touches on your business model as well, but where where is it safest to store gold right now givingven the turmoil in the Middle East for example? Um, where would you or where where is it safest these days? >> Well, you know, we look at this all the time. Um, Kai and the uh, of course, the world isn't safe anymore and the world isn't as safe as it was, you know, as as we see now in modern wars. you you can send a missile or a drone anywhere in the world. Now, so we have to look at political systems here uh to to decide uh where the gold is the safest and of course then you have to have look at systems that have survived for a very long time. And uh you know the the two main areas that we believe are the safest now are are Switzerland number one and Singapore number two. Um the the they are very good political systems. The the advantage that Switzerland has that it has been a democracy uh for hundreds of years. uh while Singapore is a new nation with a with a population which is not homogeneous um and Singapore is more is nearer you know between the Middle East and the Far East. So it is near war zones currently anyway uh than what Switzerland is and I don't expect a major war in Europe. I don't expect Russia that some people fear to to come into Europe to Western Europe. They never have of course they've been invaded three times in the last 300 years. So um there's I I still think that both the political and the monetary system in Switzerland is the best in the world because I am Swiss. I am also Swedish. I I was born with two passports. So you could say that I'm prejudiced but but you know that I I moved to Switzerland from Sweden where I was born and educated because I felt that this was absolutely the best uh uh country in the world when it when it comes to a holding your money and b also uh from a political uh point of view. you know the just the just the point of direct democracy that we have in Switzerland that that you can basic that you the people can vote about anything if they if they want to and that becomes that becomes part of the constitution you know an individual can actually start a a referendum on on on the price of sugar for example uh and that could become then part of of the constitution now So it it is the best political system in the world and it's a very very stable country. Um and of course it's it's full of mountains everywhere. Singapore has no mountains. You know, I'd rather have a vault into the deep mountain in Switzerland than a building sticking up 25 m in Singapore >> because you know now drones can easily hit anything on the ground or above ground and and therefore you know so I have a preference with Switzerland there but Singapore is a good country also but right now I mean as the we had discussion internally a few months ago and somebody suggested did no this is a cashi maybe a year ago year and a half ago somebody suggested way store in Dubai because it's grown tremendously and lots of money there I but I absolutely I've lived long enough to to um to experience a lot of conflict in the Middle East during my lifetime and I would personally never recommend anyone to store gold in Dubai. I said that already you one two three years ago. Um and of course saw we saw another conflict when Dubai is being attacked. Yes, luckily this infrastructure is still there. You never know what's going to happen but the risk is such that I wouldn't personally store any gold in in Dubai. Um so as I said so there are not many places left but Switzerland and Singapore are the two important ones that people should consider. >> Fantastic. Egon I tremendously enjoy our conversations every time you come on. and I I enjoy them tremendously. Um, where can we send our audience to follow your work? Uh, I know you mentioned Matthew's articles, but also where can they reach out to potentially work with you? >> Yeah, so our website is uh voners.gold or or vg.gold. Um, and um, we also have a Substack handle voners. Uh and uh I I would um yes I would recommend people to go to these I I write less now I do more YouTube videos short ones also um and but Matt Matt writes fantastic articles um about the world situation. So go to the website and you'll find it all or search on YouTube or our handle which is called Switzerland our handle on on YouTube. Um and um you will let get a lot of useful information. >> Fantastic Egon. Really really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for your time today. Can't wait to do this again soon. Hopefully I'll see you again in Zurich one of these days. Um I'm not sure when I'll be bit down yet, but I'd love to catch up with you in person again. So, thanks so much for coming on and uh everybody else, thank you so much for tuning in. Tremendously appreciate you watching sore financially to get educated about what is happening in the markets. Is the monetary reset still coming? EGOT said there's no deviation from the plan. It it will be happening and don't be fooled by the dips in price. Um it doesn't really make a difference. So, thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this, hit that like and subscribe button. Means a lot to us and I said it before, don't let emotions run your investments for you. Take care.