Gold Rally Finished? Why This Run Is 'Dramatically Different' | Gwen Preston
Summary
Market Outlook: The podcast discusses an unprecedented rally in precious metals, particularly gold, driven by a combination of momentum, risk hedging, and central bank buying, notably from China.
Investment Strategy: Gwen Preston highlights the importance of evaluating the sustainability of the gold rally and the role of generalist funds entering the gold space, which could influence future market dynamics.
Company Insights: West Red Lake Gold is experiencing favorable timing with the gold price surge as they ramp up their mining operations, aiming to leverage this market for shareholder benefit.
Global Economic Factors: The discussion touches on the weakening of globalization, shifts in international relations, and a move away from the US dollar, which are contributing to the increased demand for gold as a safe haven.
Gold and Cryptocurrency: The podcast notes the emergence of gold-backed cryptocurrencies like Tether's coin, highlighting a partnership rather than competition between gold and crypto as alternative investments.
Market Risks and Opportunities: While high gold prices are beneficial, there is caution about potential economic downturns, with gold stocks historically rebounding quickly after market corrections.
Strategic Decisions: Mining companies, including West Red Lake Gold, are considering locking in current high gold prices through forward contracts to manage risk and sustain operations.
Future Prospects: West Red Lake Gold plans to expand production and capitalize on the current gold market, with a focus on sustainable growth and strategic project development.
Transcript
We've also had a lot of very good years in the market and momentum is a powerful force. There's a momentum play underway. There's a risk hedge underway that created the momentum initially. >> Just evaluate whether or not this is sustainable. And to get to that, we have to get to the root cause of what's going on. >> Oh yeah. I mean, I think it's dramatically different. I think what's different this time is >> this is an unprecedented rally that we're seeing in the precious metals. how this is affecting the entire ecosystem, not just with precious metals investors, but miners and resource providers as well. We're talking with Gwen Preston. She's returning to the show. She's VP communications of West Lake Gold Mines. Welcome back, Gwen. And I just want to congratulate you and uh your colleague Shane, who I've interviewed several times, on your correct call for the direction of gold, although technically it's beaten both of your forecasts. So, um I mean that's better than not beating your forecast, I guess, but I'm I'm wondering how how you're interpreting this this rally. It's one thing to have a bullish forecast, but it's another thing to have that forecast blown out of the water by the order of $500 to $600 in the span of a couple of months. >> Absolutely. Um thanks for having me back. Great to be here. So I mean the whole company West Red Lake Gold was really created three years ago because of the the expectation that there would be a strong bull market coming and that we wanted to like build a company that could provide investors with leverage to that market. So the fact that it's happening as a whole is incredibly satisfying um because you know the whole goal is to be able to deliver to deliver that for our shareholders. So, super satisfying. Um, great timing for us as a company that's ramping up a gold mine. You know, ramp ups are, um, challenging. You're balancing a lot of, you know, needs at site versus ramping up regular operations. So, to have this incredibly strong gold price during ramp up, couldn't be better timing for us. So, it's working really well to support our our activities. As for the sustainability, I mean, it's just crazy to wake up every morning and sort of look at the gold price and be like, there's another percent, there's another percent. Where is it all coming from? I mean, you and I have talked a lot about central bank buying in China. I mean, I think that that still exists. That's part of the whole picture of ddollarization, delobization, just, you know, diversification away from the uh the monetary system that's been for a long time. That's a low that's a long game. And so I think it's still underway. I think that layering on to that in the last year uh have been a couple certainly important forces. I spent a lot of time going to conferences. I certainly have seen big money show up at gold mining conferences that has been entirely absent for the preceding 12 years. Right? So I think there's absolutely generalist funds that are coming into the gold space. Um, and so I'm sure those kinds of generalist funds, they play the they play not even the whole spectrum, which is to say they they start with the lower risk end of the spectrum for so for sure they're getting exposure to physical um, whichever form of exposure that is, but certainly they're playing the physical game as well as the miners. Um, and whether any of them jump down into the junior game um, it depends on the fund of course. The other factor I think you know like Tether putting out a goldbacked coin. I mean Tether there's been gold back coins before but a lot of them have been quite small in scale or in acceptance and and all of that. I mean te Tether's goldback coin they're buying as much on a monthly basis as the Chinese central bank. It's like they're just sapping up gold. So there are some new because of for the same reasons because of the del globalization ddollarization that's the same driver for cryptocurrencies and so you know to throw a goldbacked crypto into that mix um it all aligns I think it's so interesting because of course there used to be this hot debate about whether like who was going to win the fight crypto or gold and in fact they're they're partners right they're they're investors turn to them for very similar reasons not the same but similar reasons. And I think that's what we're seeing with things like this major goldbacked um crypto from Tether. So I there's forces layering on to the ones that were in place. Whether all of that means that we're going to sail through this without a correction. I mean I I wouldn't ever say that corrections are normal. I I don't The gold price is unreal. Um, I think the rationale for it to be very strong remains very much in place, but I'm not going to try and make price predictions in the middle of this kind of rally. >> I'm not asking you to make a price prediction because um, you know, could be beaten again, but maybe I'm asking you to just evaluate whether or not this is sustainable. And to get to that, we have to get to the root cause of what's going on. So, you've mentioned this. Well, you mentioned a few of the pointers already. Uh I I want to ask you how investors of West Red Lake Gold and perhaps other mining companies are feeling right now. Um like you mentioned there are new investors into the space. What's different this time relative to 2020 which was the last major rally? >> Oh yeah. I mean I think it's dramatically different. I think what's different this time is a global sense that the the the the waters are shifting, right? everything to do with, you know, tariff wars and and the weakening of very long-standing um international relations, the shifts in those. I mean, those are present in a way that didn't exist certainly in 2020 um and hadn't haven't hasn't haven't existed prior to that. And and I know it sounds a little uh nebulous to talk about these, you know, shifts in international relations, but that's what matters to me when it comes to gold. It has to do with the weakening of globalization and the stepping back and becoming more um localized in how trade happens. And all of that is driving a turn away from the US dollar, which is a very slowmoving freighter in the ocean, right? These things take an incredibly long time to turn around, but the way that they turn is by people seeking alternatives and gold is that alternative for the countries that are doing that. So, I mean, I really think that that's part of it. And the really important part is that now we're also in like an interest rate environment and worries about, you know, the ability of major economies to withstand these tariffs as they really start to impact. Like let's not forget a lot of the tariffs that have been discussed um are still playing out like aren't haven't really hit home for a variety of timing andor uh schedule of the implementation of the tariff reasons. Um so all of those concerns layer on top of this foundation of you know the shifts in how trade and and how countries hold onto their wealth. It's all right there. Now how are mining companies feeling about it? They're coming out of a long time a long bare market, right? And that bare mark bare markets teach conservatism. So I don't think there's a lot of major mining companies that are being particularly aggressive with their gold price. You know, juniors are going to be a little bit more aggressive, but because that's part of the game, but it's really like you look at okay, take even the mind plan that we did for our Rowan project, which is our second mine that we're we're pushing towards production. We did that mine plan only 3 months ago and I think the like upside scenario on the gold price in that was like $3600. Like that's usually the upside case of the financial model is well above the gold price, but the gold price is moving so darn fast that like even our upside case models can't keep up with it right now. So I don't think anybody is expecting to continue to be able to sell gold at $4,200. But if we can, we'll also take it and not be totally surprised by it. >> It just it it is a bit of a paradox, isn't it? That $4,200 gold should be celebrated by everybody in the industry. But at the same time, investors are probably concerned that it's signaling a major downturn in the economy coming up. Could be. I'm not saying it will, but that could be a signal according to some people I've talked to. could also signal that at that we are on the cusp of the peak of a bull a bull rally or bubble should I say for equity markets and that may put some worry into investor's minds should I deploying into stocks especially junior miners or mid tiers when you know gold is probably signaling troubling ahead trouble ahead rather how yeah what's your thought >> I mean that's always the thing with gold right you never I always hesitate to wish for $6,000 gold because I don't know if I want to be in the world where at least in if $6,000 gold were to come soon that would probably mean that there was some pretty terrible stuff going on that we were all having to deal with. So for sure um that's the classic conundrum. That's the classic gold investor conundrum. I say that in general my approach to that is you can either try to um play that downturn. Um if you think that that that is going to come some sort of recession that will end up sending gold stocks down alongside everything else, you can try and play it. So if you see the the writing on the wall, you can exit and with an a plan to re-enter um when prices do drop. The other thing that is pretty classic in the patterns is that when gold stocks get thrown out with everything else, like baby in the bathwater style, they usually rebound hard and fast. They're usually some of the first stocks to rebound out of that recession situation because investors are like, "Well, where can I go for upside in this economic moment, this this dark economic moment?" Gold is the place that they turn. And so then gold miners rebound quite quickly uh relative to the rest of the market and often regain where they were in not too long and go beyond that. So the other option is to just hold through. Um and I think both work. So as much as I don't want to have to lay out a playbook for economic calamity. I don't necessarily think that economic calamity is coming, but that's my general take on how gold stock how gold investors can approach that kind of question. According to this article um and some other sources, a symbolic milestone was reached as foreign central banks gold reserves officially surpassed their US Treasury holdings for the first time in nearly three decades, signaling a significant diversification away from the dollar. Gold's share of global reserves climbed to about 18% in 2024. And then by Q2 2025, it reached 24%, the highest since the 1990s. uh central banks buying gold and diversifying away from the dollar. Why is this happening? You've mentioned this before. Let's let's delve into this. Why is this happening? Will this continue for the next two to three years during Trump's presidency? >> I mean, Trump notwithstanding the idea of that the reason they all had so many treasuries is because every economic transaction platform in the world for decades operated on US treasuries. And so they had to have those treasuries in order to be able to for instance buy the oil that their c that their country needs or the soybeans or the the whatever it was. They they literally needed the dollars so that they could participate in global trade. What's been really significant over the last decade is the establishment of bilateral or multilateral trade agreements that are outside of the US dollar. And so as those increase, proliferate, you know, as blocks that are not interested in having their trade controlled by um the US, influenced by the US or even done in US dollars establish their own trading groups and whether they transact in rubles or juan or whatever pesos, whatever they want to transact in, um they make that choice. They actually specifically reduce their requirement to hold treasuries. And of course then the the the roundabout uh outcome of that is that the reason that the US has been able to issue so many treasuries and therefore have access to so incredibly much capital you know for the last almost 100 years is because there's been this demand for treasuries um because of those global trade platforms being in US dollars. So as all of that need for treasuries or yeah for treasuries and therefore access to US dollars just gradually shrinks um and the novelty or the weirdness of transacting outside of the US dollar goes away and it becomes more normal then then central banks are getting more and more confident that they can just hold gold and then there's just more options. It's like having options is always good. If you have gold you can get treasuries if you want. you can get access to the dollar or you can get access to Juan or whatever currency you want cuz that's why gold has always been the thing that it is. So that's the fundamental driver. Trump's tariff wars and whatnot are another layer onto that story, but they're not the driver of the story. They're just the most current. They're the chapter that we're in of that story. >> The fact that gold has been non-correlated with with stocks over the last 25 years or so. I read somewhere that the 52- week rolling correlation is somewhere between negative 0.4 to 0.4. Basically, no correlation at all. But this year, both gold and stocks and Bitcoin for that matter have all rallied in the same direction, more or less moving um in tandem uh with gold outperforming the S&P year to date actually. Are you a little bit concerned that gold is no longer at least not this year and time frame of one year is not currently being traded as a riskoff hedge against volatility in the stock markets and it's being I mean it's performing kind of like a risk-on asset if you think about it. >> Yeah, I think there's a couple layers to peel back there. I think um one that is uh long-standing is that there there have been in the past two types of situations in which gold performs. One of them is when economic calamity is underway and gold is being used as that risk hedge. The other is in as part of a broad metals bull market. So there's definitely been like the 200, you know, six, seven, eight run in gold. Um even running into then after the economic crisis, although that obviously muddied the waters a bit, but the leadup to the economic crisis that was, you know, an economic expansion metals bull market and gold was along for the ride. it was being treated almost as a metal alongside the others which is unusual but it does happen. So gold can participate as a metal when people get interested in mining and there's cash flow and there you know cash coming into the space and and investors get comfortable with the concept of mining. Gold can go along for the ride with those. Of course gold often gold's bull markets are often a little bit more earmarked by the economic calamity side of things. But I think everything that we just discussed about this increasing buying of gold for just general how the world works or how the changing world is working reasons is tempering the connection between gold and risk. It means that gold is not only being bought for risk or as part of a broad metals bull market which we're not really in um but is also got that fundamental support or other reason support. So I and it doesn't worry me because gold gold can put on different hats. >> So let me ask you two questions in consecutive order. At $4200 gold today with gold up more than 50% year to date. What is gold's role today on October 15th, 2025 for the average investor or even institutional investor? And second part of the question, what is the gold miner's role in that investor's portfolio given that the GDX is up more than 120% year to date? Yeah, good question. I think gold is in a lot of the interest that went into crypto alternative, you know, crypto as a as a hedge. We certainly have experience that it is is not really doesn't act as a hedge. It's got strong correlation to the stock markets. I think that there is in this new context an increasing awareness of gold as a hedge. So despite everything that I just said about it, it isn't always. I think that investors are looking at it as a hedge right now, but investors, we've also had a lot of very good years in the market and momentum is a powerful force. And so, you know, gold's run is attracting attention as well simply because it's running. That's another thing that absolutely happens. So, I think there's a momentum play underway. There's a risk hedge underway that created the momentum initially. um gold miners. Uh I think that the gold price has moved very strongly in a short period of time and miners have therefore moved and given the you know associated risk of other economic worries I I think investors are maybe playing not leaning super hard into gold miners at this point. They're obviously buying. Their prices are moving. That's fine. But I don't think we're seeing the leverage to gold's moves in share prices that we would ne that you would see if investors were fully on board with the idea. So I think maybe we need to understand a bit better the longevity of this gold price move for investors to be able to jump in with both feet. >> Let me just illustrate visually what this rally means is more less of a rally and more of an explosion to the upside in a vertical line. This is an unprecedented move by gold miners collectively. I know the Van GDX index is not indicative of the entire Yeah. >> um sector. It's just sort of a proxy and index that people use, but look at this. It went from $52 a share in July, which was 3 months ago, to $81 a share now. >> So that's more than a 60% move in less than 3 months. That if you look at any at any given time >> on this chart since inception of this ETF, that has not happened. So, if I were an investor, I'd probably ask you a couple things. One, what on earth happened? Number two, well, we talked about that. Number two, what are miners doing to >> to to sustain this momentum? Not necessarily a 60% move every 3 months, but to ensure that we're not at the peak of this bubble that's going to burst and then all the gains are going to get wiped out because this is just a speculative frenzy. In other words, how can we ensure that miners are doing what's necessary to make sure that there's a fundamental driver behind this move and it's not just hot air. >> Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I the fact that the move comes primarily just from the move in the price of gold means that miners there's not a a huge amount that miners can do, which is to say they can't control the price of gold. >> Sure. >> But I mean, even just today, I've been communicating back and forth with some investors about various ways of locking in this price. Um, if you're a producer, you know, you definitely at at at moves like this, you start to think about locking in some of your future production at these sorts of levels. And obvious what if gold keeps moving question. But, you know, managing downside risk is the fundamental job um when you're operating a business because you can't unlock the upside if you haven't managed the risk. And so, those sorts of conversations are happening. I've had investors reach out about that kind of thing. You know, they're just like, you know, these prices are amazing. Maybe you should. And so, you know, those conversations are bubbling to the four and I don't know if they're happening in the major boardrooms of the major gold miners, but you've got to believe they're thinking about it. Um, and then I think the other thing is just really focusing on what to do with the incredible proceeds that they're getting because of this price. And so the the lessons of the last bare market remain very very strongly in the minds of the people who were leading the major gold miners today. I mean the people who are leading major gold miners today are in those positions cuz the people who led those gold miners in the last bull market all got absolutely fired for mismanaging capital in the last bull market. So I think that lesson is like as near and dear as a lesson can be for those execs. And so I'm not I don't have the magic answer, but I think a combination of paying dividends so that gold miners become a bit more of just a straight dividend play. They get attractive to generalist investors just for dividend yield, I think would be great. Um and then just being appropriately careful with how those revenues, those incredible cash flows are being um deployed. So in in terms of new projects, um we do need more gold mines. We do need to expand. We need to put in some of the investment that's been missing for the last 15 years. But last bull market was earmarked by overpriced acquisitions of projects that were incredibly complicated and where costs ballooned far beyond control. And so don't go there, right? find make choices that have higher odds of success um than those crazy production for the sake of production choices that were made in the last market. >> Well, give us a few updates on West Red Lake Gold. I know that uh this year has been pivotal for uh the company as you've transitioned from a pure uh exploration play to now a producer. So, tell us about what you're doing in the midst of this craziness. >> Absolutely. I mean, it's like I said at the beginning, it's a really exciting time to be ramping up a gold mine, to be sure. And so, we're about halfway through the ramp up of our mine, right? We started it at the beginning of June. We expect to declare commercial production uh near the beginning of 2026. So, we're right in the middle of of that time frame. and ramp up is a pretty is a really interesting period where your balance you don't want to wait until every single aspect of your mind is completely built and totally operational um before you start producing gold because that means that you're spending money for longer before you start having cash flow. So you what you do is you get your mind going while you still have the last few things to finish. That's sort of what ramp up is because you have enough set and ready that you can get going and you can start to make money. Um, but you're still also finishing those last pieces of the of the job. And so that's what ramp up is for us. It is finishing the last pieces of the job while increasing the pace at which the miners just pull ore out of the mine. And so it's been going well. I mean, we put out an update just last week that showed ore um tonnage coming out of the mine ramping up the way that we need it to within the variability that is a ramp up period because there's these other projects that you're finishing, but it's ramping up and it's giving us a lot of comfort that we're going to hit that target of declaring commercial production very early in 2026. There's a few really key projects that we uh one that we just finished, which is now we're storing all of our waste rock underground. That's reduced that's erased the need for us to truck somewhere between 300 and 1,000 tons of waste rock out of the mine every day. It's a dramatic improvement over having to do that. So now we're storing all of our waste rock underground. That we just did in the last month. Then soon we're going to get the shaft going, which hasn't been operating yet. again going to be able to move 350 tons per day up the shaft instead of trucking it. Another huge cost savings and efficiency boost. The critical path for Madson and ramp up is getting more tons of ore out of the mine because it's sort of a fixed cost mine. So you just need to get more tons with the cost that you have. Um and it's going well. So we're really excited. And then the other really important thing that we've done in the last few months is start to plan a mine at Rowan, which is our other project. It's only 30 km away. Um 80 km on road going around the end of the lake. Um, we put out a pea on Rowan that outlines a really nice satellite mine that would kick out 35,000 ounces of gold a year and we would expect to bring that those or those those tons of mineralization to Madson and process them at Madson where our mill has the additional capacity available for that extra 400 tons per day. We just have to do a permit amendment. Um and that if you think of the Madson that we started with that we are starting with we're you know maybe 50,000 something like 50,000 ounces next year maybe a little bit more than that in 2027 you know pull another 100 tons per day out of the mine let's get ourselves maybe to 60,000 in 2027 and then lump on Rowan in 2028 and then we jump to a 100 thou in the ballpark of 100,000 ounces a year in the Red Lake region That's a really important message or aspect to the story, I guess, that wasn't in place before. And so, because the whole reason to exist for West Red Lake is to deliver significant production growth during this gold market. And so, the fact that we've sort of charted that path, I don't think the market's paying a lot of attention to that yet because the market's still focused on is Madson going to work? But what we're starting, we believe that Madson is on track and is working. And so now we are also focused on how do we make this thing bigger as quickly as we can so that we can give our investors leverage to the market that's happening right now. >> I know that some base metals producers and maybe other agricultural commodities producers um have had a history of selling their um their commodities at a forward locked in rate. So, uh, let's say they have a forward contract with a with a buyer, um, and they're and instead of selling at spot, uh, they're buying at a cont they're selling it at a contract rate. Is that something that a gold producer like West Red Lake would ever consider, especially with gold at $4,200 locking in the price now? >> Yeah, it's such an interesting question, right? And I mean, this this question has this dance has been done several times in previous bareend bull markets, and for some companies, it's worked out phenomenally well. they've locked in a really high price and for obviously for some companies it hasn't worked out well. They've locked in a price and then they've been stuck feeding those hedges um for years while gold was actually trading higher. I totally agree that $4,200 and the scale and speed of this move stands out. So those are conversations we're having. I mean we are we're we're running those spreadsheets and looking at them. No moves have been made. We're not saying that we're going to do that. Um, but it's absolutely it's it's a requirement I would say for a management team of a gold miner to be going through that exercise right now and and considering. >> If investor were to say to you, "Well, look, now that you're producing, let's milk as much cash flow as possible with $4,200 gold." How would you respond to that? >> I mean, that's the goal right now, to be honest. Let's make as much money as we can um and pay off the debt so we can make even more money, right? Let's raise let's raise some money, buy more machinery, buy more equipment. Um I don't know if more of everything is going to equal more output. I don't know if that's how it works. Can you just touch on that? >> Yes. So actually it's a pertinent question because we did just a month ago we raised $40 million and we did that so that we could pull forward some projects start now some projects that we wouldn't otherwise have started until I don't know the middle of next year. And by starting them now, they give us the possibility of producing more at Madson sooner. When I say, you know, increasing the production from 2026 to 2027 by something like 10 or 15%, that's what that's about is we pulled forward those projects to create that opportunity. There's a balance though, right? You you we are still ramping up this thing. We need to make sure that we are that we get ourselves across the finish line and that the market jumps in and really believes. I'd say West Red Lake Gold is still lagging other gold miners in its response to the gold price and it's just because there's still people are like, you know, show us the money, get to commercial production, give us the guidance, show us exactly what's happening. So, you want to make sure we're we're walking before we run. Uh that said, we're also a team that is always looking for the next project to buy because more is better. We're built to deliver production growth to the market and so we're looking to see if there's another project that we can buy. Uh who knows if what when how that might be. Um but we're going to be we're looking um so there's a balance >> in terms of expansion of your current production in Matson. Um are you well capitalized for that? Let's say if you were to uh increase the size or scope of your of your of your output, um is that something that requires a rapid or uh or a huge expansion of the mine itself or is it simply a matter of more production um materials um and and staff? What needs to happen if that were the case? >> Yeah, for sure. So, the cool thing, one of the cool things about Madson is that the mill is bigger than what we currently need. So the mill is like essentially it's a 1,200 ton per day mill. It has only ever been permitted as an 800 ton per day mill. So there is that extra 50% more capacity that infrastructure- wise at the mill. Um so then the you know then the immediate question is well how do we take how do we make take advantage of that capacity and the answers the possible answers are pulling more ore on a daily basis out of Madson. So, that's one possibility. You know, underground mines that have a shaft and a portal, they have their, you know, it gets to a point where it gets harder to pull more tons out of those openings is is the way that I'll put it. Um, but there are ways. So, one answer is to try and pull more out of Madson. And for us, the other answer is to push Rowan ahead as quickly as we can because that's a project that within two or two and a half years can be sending 400 tons a day to Madson and taking advantage of exactly that capacity that we have. So, that's a cool aspect of Madson is that we have that um investment done, that mill capacity already in place and a way to feed it uh fairly quickly and and Ontario's talk about expediting permitting. We are increasingly optimistic that that's actually going to happen. We're having meetings with the Minister of Mines and it it feels like it's going to be a real thing. So, so that's that's we think that that's our best odds of um taking advantage of that opportunity. Gwen, what's the next milestone we have to watch for? >> So, the next big milestone is certainly achieving commercial production. So, that'll be early in 2026. And when we achieve commercial production, we will, you know, give guidance for the year. How many tons are we going to produce? What's the grade going to be? What's the cost going to be? Um, and that'll be a really important thing for the market to see to understand exactly what this mine is that we've created. And then we will increasingly be talking about Rowan and how we're bringing these projects together. And by sometime next summer, we'll do a new technical study. I know that sounds boring, but a technical study that is the the the mind that we have, Madson, and the project that we're adding to it, Rowan. We'll put them together in a mind plan and present that. And that will really underline what we've been talking about here, how we do have a charted path to producing significantly more in Red Lake than we're starting with right now. And I think when you look at companies out there that are putting a mine into production in say 2028, look at Skina, right? It's putting a mine into production in 2028. It's a big mine for sure, but 2028 is still a couple years out. Skina is getting a phenomenal valuation today because it has made clear that it has a path to significant production in the near future. And there's not very many companies out there that are offering that. The bare market killed a lot of project momentum. And so there's not very many projects or companies that can offer significant production growth. And so we really want to make clear that we have that in hand and we're pushing it ahead as quickly as we can because we think that that will create sign that has the potential to create some significant value for investors pretty soon. >> Your forward guidance or commercial production will that number change or fluctuate depending on the gold price. So, let's suppose I'm not saying it will happen, but let's suppose in a worst case uh scenario when you're doing your uh scenarios analysis, gold goes to $2,000 by next year uh around this time uh next year. What will happen to your production? Will you alter that number or do you basically have a fixed target that you have to meet? >> Yeah, it's a good question. So, our um offic the the prefeasibility study for the Madson mine actually created a mine plan that was where the hurdle price for the tons that went into the mine plan was $1,680. So, if the gold price were to fall off a cliff and head back towards that level, we have that mine plan in our back pocket. Now, that's not the mine plan that we're following to a tea right now because gold is worth quite a bit more than that. And so, you end up mining more. You take more of the lower grade. you do a slightly different mine, uh you do a bigger mine that lasts longer and take more of the mineralization, including the lower grade. But we do have that mine plan in our back pocket and it's an economic mine plan. So, we have the ability to change our approach at Madson um within a pretty large range of gold prices. >> Excellent. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time today, Gwen, and uh appreciate your update and once again, congrats on all the success your team has had this year and your great calls. Where can we follow you in the meantime? Oh, well, thank you for having me. I love these chats. It's always fun. Uh, westlake.com is where you can find me and um, always happy to to chat with anyone. >> All right. Thank you very much. Uh, and we'll put the link down below. So, make sure to follow the company there. We'll speak again next time, Gwen. Take care. >> Take care. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.
Gold Rally Finished? Why This Run Is 'Dramatically Different' | Gwen Preston
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We've also had a lot of very good years in the market and momentum is a powerful force. There's a momentum play underway. There's a risk hedge underway that created the momentum initially. >> Just evaluate whether or not this is sustainable. And to get to that, we have to get to the root cause of what's going on. >> Oh yeah. I mean, I think it's dramatically different. I think what's different this time is >> this is an unprecedented rally that we're seeing in the precious metals. how this is affecting the entire ecosystem, not just with precious metals investors, but miners and resource providers as well. We're talking with Gwen Preston. She's returning to the show. She's VP communications of West Lake Gold Mines. Welcome back, Gwen. And I just want to congratulate you and uh your colleague Shane, who I've interviewed several times, on your correct call for the direction of gold, although technically it's beaten both of your forecasts. So, um I mean that's better than not beating your forecast, I guess, but I'm I'm wondering how how you're interpreting this this rally. It's one thing to have a bullish forecast, but it's another thing to have that forecast blown out of the water by the order of $500 to $600 in the span of a couple of months. >> Absolutely. Um thanks for having me back. Great to be here. So I mean the whole company West Red Lake Gold was really created three years ago because of the the expectation that there would be a strong bull market coming and that we wanted to like build a company that could provide investors with leverage to that market. So the fact that it's happening as a whole is incredibly satisfying um because you know the whole goal is to be able to deliver to deliver that for our shareholders. So, super satisfying. Um, great timing for us as a company that's ramping up a gold mine. You know, ramp ups are, um, challenging. You're balancing a lot of, you know, needs at site versus ramping up regular operations. So, to have this incredibly strong gold price during ramp up, couldn't be better timing for us. So, it's working really well to support our our activities. As for the sustainability, I mean, it's just crazy to wake up every morning and sort of look at the gold price and be like, there's another percent, there's another percent. Where is it all coming from? I mean, you and I have talked a lot about central bank buying in China. I mean, I think that that still exists. That's part of the whole picture of ddollarization, delobization, just, you know, diversification away from the uh the monetary system that's been for a long time. That's a low that's a long game. And so I think it's still underway. I think that layering on to that in the last year uh have been a couple certainly important forces. I spent a lot of time going to conferences. I certainly have seen big money show up at gold mining conferences that has been entirely absent for the preceding 12 years. Right? So I think there's absolutely generalist funds that are coming into the gold space. Um, and so I'm sure those kinds of generalist funds, they play the they play not even the whole spectrum, which is to say they they start with the lower risk end of the spectrum for so for sure they're getting exposure to physical um, whichever form of exposure that is, but certainly they're playing the physical game as well as the miners. Um, and whether any of them jump down into the junior game um, it depends on the fund of course. The other factor I think you know like Tether putting out a goldbacked coin. I mean Tether there's been gold back coins before but a lot of them have been quite small in scale or in acceptance and and all of that. I mean te Tether's goldback coin they're buying as much on a monthly basis as the Chinese central bank. It's like they're just sapping up gold. So there are some new because of for the same reasons because of the del globalization ddollarization that's the same driver for cryptocurrencies and so you know to throw a goldbacked crypto into that mix um it all aligns I think it's so interesting because of course there used to be this hot debate about whether like who was going to win the fight crypto or gold and in fact they're they're partners right they're they're investors turn to them for very similar reasons not the same but similar reasons. And I think that's what we're seeing with things like this major goldbacked um crypto from Tether. So I there's forces layering on to the ones that were in place. Whether all of that means that we're going to sail through this without a correction. I mean I I wouldn't ever say that corrections are normal. I I don't The gold price is unreal. Um, I think the rationale for it to be very strong remains very much in place, but I'm not going to try and make price predictions in the middle of this kind of rally. >> I'm not asking you to make a price prediction because um, you know, could be beaten again, but maybe I'm asking you to just evaluate whether or not this is sustainable. And to get to that, we have to get to the root cause of what's going on. So, you've mentioned this. Well, you mentioned a few of the pointers already. Uh I I want to ask you how investors of West Red Lake Gold and perhaps other mining companies are feeling right now. Um like you mentioned there are new investors into the space. What's different this time relative to 2020 which was the last major rally? >> Oh yeah. I mean I think it's dramatically different. I think what's different this time is a global sense that the the the the waters are shifting, right? everything to do with, you know, tariff wars and and the weakening of very long-standing um international relations, the shifts in those. I mean, those are present in a way that didn't exist certainly in 2020 um and hadn't haven't hasn't haven't existed prior to that. And and I know it sounds a little uh nebulous to talk about these, you know, shifts in international relations, but that's what matters to me when it comes to gold. It has to do with the weakening of globalization and the stepping back and becoming more um localized in how trade happens. And all of that is driving a turn away from the US dollar, which is a very slowmoving freighter in the ocean, right? These things take an incredibly long time to turn around, but the way that they turn is by people seeking alternatives and gold is that alternative for the countries that are doing that. So, I mean, I really think that that's part of it. And the really important part is that now we're also in like an interest rate environment and worries about, you know, the ability of major economies to withstand these tariffs as they really start to impact. Like let's not forget a lot of the tariffs that have been discussed um are still playing out like aren't haven't really hit home for a variety of timing andor uh schedule of the implementation of the tariff reasons. Um so all of those concerns layer on top of this foundation of you know the shifts in how trade and and how countries hold onto their wealth. It's all right there. Now how are mining companies feeling about it? They're coming out of a long time a long bare market, right? And that bare mark bare markets teach conservatism. So I don't think there's a lot of major mining companies that are being particularly aggressive with their gold price. You know, juniors are going to be a little bit more aggressive, but because that's part of the game, but it's really like you look at okay, take even the mind plan that we did for our Rowan project, which is our second mine that we're we're pushing towards production. We did that mine plan only 3 months ago and I think the like upside scenario on the gold price in that was like $3600. Like that's usually the upside case of the financial model is well above the gold price, but the gold price is moving so darn fast that like even our upside case models can't keep up with it right now. So I don't think anybody is expecting to continue to be able to sell gold at $4,200. But if we can, we'll also take it and not be totally surprised by it. >> It just it it is a bit of a paradox, isn't it? That $4,200 gold should be celebrated by everybody in the industry. But at the same time, investors are probably concerned that it's signaling a major downturn in the economy coming up. Could be. I'm not saying it will, but that could be a signal according to some people I've talked to. could also signal that at that we are on the cusp of the peak of a bull a bull rally or bubble should I say for equity markets and that may put some worry into investor's minds should I deploying into stocks especially junior miners or mid tiers when you know gold is probably signaling troubling ahead trouble ahead rather how yeah what's your thought >> I mean that's always the thing with gold right you never I always hesitate to wish for $6,000 gold because I don't know if I want to be in the world where at least in if $6,000 gold were to come soon that would probably mean that there was some pretty terrible stuff going on that we were all having to deal with. So for sure um that's the classic conundrum. That's the classic gold investor conundrum. I say that in general my approach to that is you can either try to um play that downturn. Um if you think that that that is going to come some sort of recession that will end up sending gold stocks down alongside everything else, you can try and play it. So if you see the the writing on the wall, you can exit and with an a plan to re-enter um when prices do drop. The other thing that is pretty classic in the patterns is that when gold stocks get thrown out with everything else, like baby in the bathwater style, they usually rebound hard and fast. They're usually some of the first stocks to rebound out of that recession situation because investors are like, "Well, where can I go for upside in this economic moment, this this dark economic moment?" Gold is the place that they turn. And so then gold miners rebound quite quickly uh relative to the rest of the market and often regain where they were in not too long and go beyond that. So the other option is to just hold through. Um and I think both work. So as much as I don't want to have to lay out a playbook for economic calamity. I don't necessarily think that economic calamity is coming, but that's my general take on how gold stock how gold investors can approach that kind of question. According to this article um and some other sources, a symbolic milestone was reached as foreign central banks gold reserves officially surpassed their US Treasury holdings for the first time in nearly three decades, signaling a significant diversification away from the dollar. Gold's share of global reserves climbed to about 18% in 2024. And then by Q2 2025, it reached 24%, the highest since the 1990s. uh central banks buying gold and diversifying away from the dollar. Why is this happening? You've mentioned this before. Let's let's delve into this. Why is this happening? Will this continue for the next two to three years during Trump's presidency? >> I mean, Trump notwithstanding the idea of that the reason they all had so many treasuries is because every economic transaction platform in the world for decades operated on US treasuries. And so they had to have those treasuries in order to be able to for instance buy the oil that their c that their country needs or the soybeans or the the whatever it was. They they literally needed the dollars so that they could participate in global trade. What's been really significant over the last decade is the establishment of bilateral or multilateral trade agreements that are outside of the US dollar. And so as those increase, proliferate, you know, as blocks that are not interested in having their trade controlled by um the US, influenced by the US or even done in US dollars establish their own trading groups and whether they transact in rubles or juan or whatever pesos, whatever they want to transact in, um they make that choice. They actually specifically reduce their requirement to hold treasuries. And of course then the the the roundabout uh outcome of that is that the reason that the US has been able to issue so many treasuries and therefore have access to so incredibly much capital you know for the last almost 100 years is because there's been this demand for treasuries um because of those global trade platforms being in US dollars. So as all of that need for treasuries or yeah for treasuries and therefore access to US dollars just gradually shrinks um and the novelty or the weirdness of transacting outside of the US dollar goes away and it becomes more normal then then central banks are getting more and more confident that they can just hold gold and then there's just more options. It's like having options is always good. If you have gold you can get treasuries if you want. you can get access to the dollar or you can get access to Juan or whatever currency you want cuz that's why gold has always been the thing that it is. So that's the fundamental driver. Trump's tariff wars and whatnot are another layer onto that story, but they're not the driver of the story. They're just the most current. They're the chapter that we're in of that story. >> The fact that gold has been non-correlated with with stocks over the last 25 years or so. I read somewhere that the 52- week rolling correlation is somewhere between negative 0.4 to 0.4. Basically, no correlation at all. But this year, both gold and stocks and Bitcoin for that matter have all rallied in the same direction, more or less moving um in tandem uh with gold outperforming the S&P year to date actually. Are you a little bit concerned that gold is no longer at least not this year and time frame of one year is not currently being traded as a riskoff hedge against volatility in the stock markets and it's being I mean it's performing kind of like a risk-on asset if you think about it. >> Yeah, I think there's a couple layers to peel back there. I think um one that is uh long-standing is that there there have been in the past two types of situations in which gold performs. One of them is when economic calamity is underway and gold is being used as that risk hedge. The other is in as part of a broad metals bull market. So there's definitely been like the 200, you know, six, seven, eight run in gold. Um even running into then after the economic crisis, although that obviously muddied the waters a bit, but the leadup to the economic crisis that was, you know, an economic expansion metals bull market and gold was along for the ride. it was being treated almost as a metal alongside the others which is unusual but it does happen. So gold can participate as a metal when people get interested in mining and there's cash flow and there you know cash coming into the space and and investors get comfortable with the concept of mining. Gold can go along for the ride with those. Of course gold often gold's bull markets are often a little bit more earmarked by the economic calamity side of things. But I think everything that we just discussed about this increasing buying of gold for just general how the world works or how the changing world is working reasons is tempering the connection between gold and risk. It means that gold is not only being bought for risk or as part of a broad metals bull market which we're not really in um but is also got that fundamental support or other reason support. So I and it doesn't worry me because gold gold can put on different hats. >> So let me ask you two questions in consecutive order. At $4200 gold today with gold up more than 50% year to date. What is gold's role today on October 15th, 2025 for the average investor or even institutional investor? And second part of the question, what is the gold miner's role in that investor's portfolio given that the GDX is up more than 120% year to date? Yeah, good question. I think gold is in a lot of the interest that went into crypto alternative, you know, crypto as a as a hedge. We certainly have experience that it is is not really doesn't act as a hedge. It's got strong correlation to the stock markets. I think that there is in this new context an increasing awareness of gold as a hedge. So despite everything that I just said about it, it isn't always. I think that investors are looking at it as a hedge right now, but investors, we've also had a lot of very good years in the market and momentum is a powerful force. And so, you know, gold's run is attracting attention as well simply because it's running. That's another thing that absolutely happens. So, I think there's a momentum play underway. There's a risk hedge underway that created the momentum initially. um gold miners. Uh I think that the gold price has moved very strongly in a short period of time and miners have therefore moved and given the you know associated risk of other economic worries I I think investors are maybe playing not leaning super hard into gold miners at this point. They're obviously buying. Their prices are moving. That's fine. But I don't think we're seeing the leverage to gold's moves in share prices that we would ne that you would see if investors were fully on board with the idea. So I think maybe we need to understand a bit better the longevity of this gold price move for investors to be able to jump in with both feet. >> Let me just illustrate visually what this rally means is more less of a rally and more of an explosion to the upside in a vertical line. This is an unprecedented move by gold miners collectively. I know the Van GDX index is not indicative of the entire Yeah. >> um sector. It's just sort of a proxy and index that people use, but look at this. It went from $52 a share in July, which was 3 months ago, to $81 a share now. >> So that's more than a 60% move in less than 3 months. That if you look at any at any given time >> on this chart since inception of this ETF, that has not happened. So, if I were an investor, I'd probably ask you a couple things. One, what on earth happened? Number two, well, we talked about that. Number two, what are miners doing to >> to to sustain this momentum? Not necessarily a 60% move every 3 months, but to ensure that we're not at the peak of this bubble that's going to burst and then all the gains are going to get wiped out because this is just a speculative frenzy. In other words, how can we ensure that miners are doing what's necessary to make sure that there's a fundamental driver behind this move and it's not just hot air. >> Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I the fact that the move comes primarily just from the move in the price of gold means that miners there's not a a huge amount that miners can do, which is to say they can't control the price of gold. >> Sure. >> But I mean, even just today, I've been communicating back and forth with some investors about various ways of locking in this price. Um, if you're a producer, you know, you definitely at at at moves like this, you start to think about locking in some of your future production at these sorts of levels. And obvious what if gold keeps moving question. But, you know, managing downside risk is the fundamental job um when you're operating a business because you can't unlock the upside if you haven't managed the risk. And so, those sorts of conversations are happening. I've had investors reach out about that kind of thing. You know, they're just like, you know, these prices are amazing. Maybe you should. And so, you know, those conversations are bubbling to the four and I don't know if they're happening in the major boardrooms of the major gold miners, but you've got to believe they're thinking about it. Um, and then I think the other thing is just really focusing on what to do with the incredible proceeds that they're getting because of this price. And so the the lessons of the last bare market remain very very strongly in the minds of the people who were leading the major gold miners today. I mean the people who are leading major gold miners today are in those positions cuz the people who led those gold miners in the last bull market all got absolutely fired for mismanaging capital in the last bull market. So I think that lesson is like as near and dear as a lesson can be for those execs. And so I'm not I don't have the magic answer, but I think a combination of paying dividends so that gold miners become a bit more of just a straight dividend play. They get attractive to generalist investors just for dividend yield, I think would be great. Um and then just being appropriately careful with how those revenues, those incredible cash flows are being um deployed. So in in terms of new projects, um we do need more gold mines. We do need to expand. We need to put in some of the investment that's been missing for the last 15 years. But last bull market was earmarked by overpriced acquisitions of projects that were incredibly complicated and where costs ballooned far beyond control. And so don't go there, right? find make choices that have higher odds of success um than those crazy production for the sake of production choices that were made in the last market. >> Well, give us a few updates on West Red Lake Gold. I know that uh this year has been pivotal for uh the company as you've transitioned from a pure uh exploration play to now a producer. So, tell us about what you're doing in the midst of this craziness. >> Absolutely. I mean, it's like I said at the beginning, it's a really exciting time to be ramping up a gold mine, to be sure. And so, we're about halfway through the ramp up of our mine, right? We started it at the beginning of June. We expect to declare commercial production uh near the beginning of 2026. So, we're right in the middle of of that time frame. and ramp up is a pretty is a really interesting period where your balance you don't want to wait until every single aspect of your mind is completely built and totally operational um before you start producing gold because that means that you're spending money for longer before you start having cash flow. So you what you do is you get your mind going while you still have the last few things to finish. That's sort of what ramp up is because you have enough set and ready that you can get going and you can start to make money. Um, but you're still also finishing those last pieces of the of the job. And so that's what ramp up is for us. It is finishing the last pieces of the job while increasing the pace at which the miners just pull ore out of the mine. And so it's been going well. I mean, we put out an update just last week that showed ore um tonnage coming out of the mine ramping up the way that we need it to within the variability that is a ramp up period because there's these other projects that you're finishing, but it's ramping up and it's giving us a lot of comfort that we're going to hit that target of declaring commercial production very early in 2026. There's a few really key projects that we uh one that we just finished, which is now we're storing all of our waste rock underground. That's reduced that's erased the need for us to truck somewhere between 300 and 1,000 tons of waste rock out of the mine every day. It's a dramatic improvement over having to do that. So now we're storing all of our waste rock underground. That we just did in the last month. Then soon we're going to get the shaft going, which hasn't been operating yet. again going to be able to move 350 tons per day up the shaft instead of trucking it. Another huge cost savings and efficiency boost. The critical path for Madson and ramp up is getting more tons of ore out of the mine because it's sort of a fixed cost mine. So you just need to get more tons with the cost that you have. Um and it's going well. So we're really excited. And then the other really important thing that we've done in the last few months is start to plan a mine at Rowan, which is our other project. It's only 30 km away. Um 80 km on road going around the end of the lake. Um, we put out a pea on Rowan that outlines a really nice satellite mine that would kick out 35,000 ounces of gold a year and we would expect to bring that those or those those tons of mineralization to Madson and process them at Madson where our mill has the additional capacity available for that extra 400 tons per day. We just have to do a permit amendment. Um and that if you think of the Madson that we started with that we are starting with we're you know maybe 50,000 something like 50,000 ounces next year maybe a little bit more than that in 2027 you know pull another 100 tons per day out of the mine let's get ourselves maybe to 60,000 in 2027 and then lump on Rowan in 2028 and then we jump to a 100 thou in the ballpark of 100,000 ounces a year in the Red Lake region That's a really important message or aspect to the story, I guess, that wasn't in place before. And so, because the whole reason to exist for West Red Lake is to deliver significant production growth during this gold market. And so, the fact that we've sort of charted that path, I don't think the market's paying a lot of attention to that yet because the market's still focused on is Madson going to work? But what we're starting, we believe that Madson is on track and is working. And so now we are also focused on how do we make this thing bigger as quickly as we can so that we can give our investors leverage to the market that's happening right now. >> I know that some base metals producers and maybe other agricultural commodities producers um have had a history of selling their um their commodities at a forward locked in rate. So, uh, let's say they have a forward contract with a with a buyer, um, and they're and instead of selling at spot, uh, they're buying at a cont they're selling it at a contract rate. Is that something that a gold producer like West Red Lake would ever consider, especially with gold at $4,200 locking in the price now? >> Yeah, it's such an interesting question, right? And I mean, this this question has this dance has been done several times in previous bareend bull markets, and for some companies, it's worked out phenomenally well. they've locked in a really high price and for obviously for some companies it hasn't worked out well. They've locked in a price and then they've been stuck feeding those hedges um for years while gold was actually trading higher. I totally agree that $4,200 and the scale and speed of this move stands out. So those are conversations we're having. I mean we are we're we're running those spreadsheets and looking at them. No moves have been made. We're not saying that we're going to do that. Um, but it's absolutely it's it's a requirement I would say for a management team of a gold miner to be going through that exercise right now and and considering. >> If investor were to say to you, "Well, look, now that you're producing, let's milk as much cash flow as possible with $4,200 gold." How would you respond to that? >> I mean, that's the goal right now, to be honest. Let's make as much money as we can um and pay off the debt so we can make even more money, right? Let's raise let's raise some money, buy more machinery, buy more equipment. Um I don't know if more of everything is going to equal more output. I don't know if that's how it works. Can you just touch on that? >> Yes. So actually it's a pertinent question because we did just a month ago we raised $40 million and we did that so that we could pull forward some projects start now some projects that we wouldn't otherwise have started until I don't know the middle of next year. And by starting them now, they give us the possibility of producing more at Madson sooner. When I say, you know, increasing the production from 2026 to 2027 by something like 10 or 15%, that's what that's about is we pulled forward those projects to create that opportunity. There's a balance though, right? You you we are still ramping up this thing. We need to make sure that we are that we get ourselves across the finish line and that the market jumps in and really believes. I'd say West Red Lake Gold is still lagging other gold miners in its response to the gold price and it's just because there's still people are like, you know, show us the money, get to commercial production, give us the guidance, show us exactly what's happening. So, you want to make sure we're we're walking before we run. Uh that said, we're also a team that is always looking for the next project to buy because more is better. We're built to deliver production growth to the market and so we're looking to see if there's another project that we can buy. Uh who knows if what when how that might be. Um but we're going to be we're looking um so there's a balance >> in terms of expansion of your current production in Matson. Um are you well capitalized for that? Let's say if you were to uh increase the size or scope of your of your of your output, um is that something that requires a rapid or uh or a huge expansion of the mine itself or is it simply a matter of more production um materials um and and staff? What needs to happen if that were the case? >> Yeah, for sure. So, the cool thing, one of the cool things about Madson is that the mill is bigger than what we currently need. So the mill is like essentially it's a 1,200 ton per day mill. It has only ever been permitted as an 800 ton per day mill. So there is that extra 50% more capacity that infrastructure- wise at the mill. Um so then the you know then the immediate question is well how do we take how do we make take advantage of that capacity and the answers the possible answers are pulling more ore on a daily basis out of Madson. So, that's one possibility. You know, underground mines that have a shaft and a portal, they have their, you know, it gets to a point where it gets harder to pull more tons out of those openings is is the way that I'll put it. Um, but there are ways. So, one answer is to try and pull more out of Madson. And for us, the other answer is to push Rowan ahead as quickly as we can because that's a project that within two or two and a half years can be sending 400 tons a day to Madson and taking advantage of exactly that capacity that we have. So, that's a cool aspect of Madson is that we have that um investment done, that mill capacity already in place and a way to feed it uh fairly quickly and and Ontario's talk about expediting permitting. We are increasingly optimistic that that's actually going to happen. We're having meetings with the Minister of Mines and it it feels like it's going to be a real thing. So, so that's that's we think that that's our best odds of um taking advantage of that opportunity. Gwen, what's the next milestone we have to watch for? >> So, the next big milestone is certainly achieving commercial production. So, that'll be early in 2026. And when we achieve commercial production, we will, you know, give guidance for the year. How many tons are we going to produce? What's the grade going to be? What's the cost going to be? Um, and that'll be a really important thing for the market to see to understand exactly what this mine is that we've created. And then we will increasingly be talking about Rowan and how we're bringing these projects together. And by sometime next summer, we'll do a new technical study. I know that sounds boring, but a technical study that is the the the mind that we have, Madson, and the project that we're adding to it, Rowan. We'll put them together in a mind plan and present that. And that will really underline what we've been talking about here, how we do have a charted path to producing significantly more in Red Lake than we're starting with right now. And I think when you look at companies out there that are putting a mine into production in say 2028, look at Skina, right? It's putting a mine into production in 2028. It's a big mine for sure, but 2028 is still a couple years out. Skina is getting a phenomenal valuation today because it has made clear that it has a path to significant production in the near future. And there's not very many companies out there that are offering that. The bare market killed a lot of project momentum. And so there's not very many projects or companies that can offer significant production growth. And so we really want to make clear that we have that in hand and we're pushing it ahead as quickly as we can because we think that that will create sign that has the potential to create some significant value for investors pretty soon. >> Your forward guidance or commercial production will that number change or fluctuate depending on the gold price. So, let's suppose I'm not saying it will happen, but let's suppose in a worst case uh scenario when you're doing your uh scenarios analysis, gold goes to $2,000 by next year uh around this time uh next year. What will happen to your production? Will you alter that number or do you basically have a fixed target that you have to meet? >> Yeah, it's a good question. So, our um offic the the prefeasibility study for the Madson mine actually created a mine plan that was where the hurdle price for the tons that went into the mine plan was $1,680. So, if the gold price were to fall off a cliff and head back towards that level, we have that mine plan in our back pocket. Now, that's not the mine plan that we're following to a tea right now because gold is worth quite a bit more than that. And so, you end up mining more. You take more of the lower grade. you do a slightly different mine, uh you do a bigger mine that lasts longer and take more of the mineralization, including the lower grade. But we do have that mine plan in our back pocket and it's an economic mine plan. So, we have the ability to change our approach at Madson um within a pretty large range of gold prices. >> Excellent. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time today, Gwen, and uh appreciate your update and once again, congrats on all the success your team has had this year and your great calls. Where can we follow you in the meantime? Oh, well, thank you for having me. I love these chats. It's always fun. Uh, westlake.com is where you can find me and um, always happy to to chat with anyone. >> All right. Thank you very much. Uh, and we'll put the link down below. So, make sure to follow the company there. We'll speak again next time, Gwen. Take care. >> Take care. >> Thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe.