How To Matter & Live With Purpose | Jennifer Wallace
Summary
Mattering as a Core Need: The guest frames mattering—feeling valued and adding value—as a fundamental human need tied to mental, social, and physical health.
Roots of the Crisis: Drivers include hyper-individualism, weakened community/religious institutions, and technology as an accelerant of disconnection rather than a root cause.
Workplace Culture: Emphasis on creating systems that connect employees to their impact (to colleagues, company outcomes, and society) to reduce disengagement and burnout.
Future of Work and AI: With AI likely reducing human-required tasks, the guest stresses the need to intentionally cultivate mattering beyond just income (e.g., UBI), focusing on meaningful contribution.
Company Example: Walmart was cited as an example of a people-led, tech-driven approach to connect staff to impact, but this was not presented as an investment recommendation.
Practical Playbook: Individuals can build mattering via social courage, invitations, asking for help, and adding value using time, talent, or treasure while shifting focus from extrinsic to intrinsic values.
Families and Policy: Parents can foster unconditional worth and resilience; policy ideas include treating mattering as a public health priority and exploring volunteer/national service to build social cohesion.
No Investment Pitch: No specific tickers, GICS sectors, subsectors, or investable themes were substantively pitched in this discussion.
Transcript
Welcome to Thoughtful Money. I'm its founder and your host, Adam Tagert. While we talk about money a lot on this program, it's very important to keep in mind that money is a means to wealth. It's not true wealth in and of itself. True wealth is pretty simple when you boil it down. It's having quality relationships, a sense of purpose, and good health. Today on this special Christmas release, we're going to dive deeply into the first two of those. We're fortunate to be joined by Jennifer Wallace, New York Times best-selling author. She's got a new book out titled Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us today. >> Oh, thanks so much for having me. I I would actually argue we're going to dive into all three because without social health, we don't have physical health. >> Great point. All right, we'll make it a trifecta. Um, fantastic. Okay, so yes, uh, I've been very excited for this interview. Uh, your people reached out to me as I was telling you, I I don't take I get I mean, I literally get hit every couple hours by people who are pitching a speaker, many of whom are just not a good fit for this channel in any way, shape, or form. But um you know yours was was different than my normal fair but but very of interest to me for the reason that I I remind people on this channel as I just did in the intro. you this channel is all about wealth building and so we're so focused on money in that discussion but we got to remember that money isn't the end goal right and if we're looking to lead uh live lead and live um happy fulfilled lives what are the things that are really important there and they're the the three things that we talked about and your book mattering uh is right in the strike zone as you just said maybe it applies to actually all three of those so it's it's the perfect topic if you will here so um why don't we just dive right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right into this I know that you uh have done a lot of research for this book and and also the previous book that you wrote that I'm sure we'll talk about a bit too. Why is mattering so important to the human condition? Um >> well yeah you know why why does it matter? What are its benefits like what what does it give us and and you know maybe kind of once you've answered all that what sparked you to write the book now about mattering? So mattering is a fundamental human need that all of us have all over the world. Uh simply defined as feeling valued by family, friends, community and having an opportunity to add value back. And for so many people today, this need is going unmet. People feel lonely. They don't feel valued. They are disengaged at work. They don't know how they're adding value. So, and I'm sure we'll get into this. There are a variety of reasons why there's been this, as I call it, an erosion or a crisis of mattering in our culture today. But it is important because when we feel like we matter, and this is decades worth of research, uh when we feel like we matter, we show up to the world in positive ways. We want to engage. We want to connect. We want to contribute. But when we are chronically made to feel like we don't matter, some of us withdraw, become anxious, depressed. Some people might turn to substances to try to alleviate the pain. >> Others lash out in anger, road rage, political extremes, uh, mass shootings. These are these can be seen as desperate attempts to say, "I'll show you I matter." And we have for so long treated mattering like a nice to have feeling. Um it is actually so much more fundamental than that and we need to go back to meeting that need. >> All right. So I I I'm curious if your research >> goes here but so clearly say the research um says that mattering is important perhaps essential uh to to humans or at least human thriving. Um, does it get to like why? I mean, evolutionarily you could say, look, if if if if you were just a domesticated house pet and somebody fed you and sheltered you, why isn't that good enough? Why isn't that winning evolutionarily? Right? Why do we have to matter? >> Yeah. So, let's go back to evolution. For our earliest ancestors, feeling valued by the group and knowing that you add value to the group was what protected you. It's what kept you fed. What's it's what kept you protected from the elements. Um when you were made to feel like you didn't matter, when you were pushed out, rejected, that was certain death. And so we have evolved to to to uh crave that sense of mattering, that social proof that we matter to the group. Um and back then it was life or death. And frankly, I would argue today mattering is still life or death. When we don't have a sense of mattering, we are not socially connected. It damages our mental health. It damages our social health and ultimately it damages our physical health. loneliness, anxiety, depression, disengagement, meaninglessness, purposelessness. This is uh this is painful. This is a painful way to go through life. Mattering is really the pathway to thriving and to what some might be seeking, happiness. Happiness has never been my goal. Um living a productive, meaningful life is more important to me. But if people are looking to be happy, I will tell them that the research shows there is one pathway and that is to matter to other people. Christopher Peterson who was a brilliant um psychologist at the University of Michigan and one of the grandfathers of the positive psychology uh movement uh had this famous quote that was other people matter. When it comes to happiness, other people matter. I I it's as simple as that. >> So So interesting. And you're actually connecting a bunch of dots um on past discussions that I've had on this channel. One of which was the author Sebastian Younger. Um he wrote the book The Perfect Storm. He's probably best known for that, but he's written a whole bunch of others. And one of his books that made a big difference on me was his book uh tribe. Um I can't remember the exact title but it it had to do with with you know on belonging and and and being connected to others basically on homecoming and belonging. That's what it was tribe on homecoming and belonging. And it really got to the point of sort of why we need social connection is because we are social tribal creatures. That's what we evolved to be in. Right. And um and uh that connected with what I've heard Scott Galloway uh talk about which what which you just mentioned there is in in a tribe back in caveman days, right? Um if the tribe exiled you to your point that was death, right? Like it was it was an environment where the individual the solo individual really couldn't exist on their own. you needed the other people in that tribe to do the things for you that you couldn't to watch your back against other waring tribes or predators or whatever or share some of their food when you didn't catch, you know, a rabbit that day, that type of stuff. Um, so to your point, that is hardwired into our psyche that um, a we need to be in in unity with with the folks around us, but b if we're not if we don't matter, if they've determined we don't matter to them, that feels like an existential not just sense of rejection, but like an existential threat to us living. >> Oh, I'm saying all this. Yeah. >> Oh, absolutely. I have I was jotting down notes of things I didn't want to forget to say. Um there there is a study that I write about uh that looked at men who were suicidal and they found that two of the most common words they use to describe their pain was worthless and useless. >> So these are not just uh you know uncomfortable feelings. These are existential uh threats to our humanity. Uh also you you talked about the importance of belonging. Mattering as researchers define it is a meta need or an umbrella term meaning it's a need that sits above other needs. So after the drive for food and shelter it is the drive to matter that shapes human behavior for better or for worse. Um, when you think about a meta need, mattering has underneath it belonging, connection, mastery, self-determination, all of these other human needs that we we all long to meet. Um, but mattering goes deeper. So, you can belong to the accounting department at your firm and not feel like you actually matter to those people. You can be a part of a neighborhood and not feel like you matter. You could feel invisible there. You can belong to a family uh and not feel like you matter to that family. So mattering takes belonging and and um offers us the proof that we actually uh are making an impact a positive impact in the world around us. So belonging tells you you have a seat at the table. Mattering tells you that your voice, your input makes a positive difference. >> Okay? And to matter, obviously, you need that positive element to it. It's not just enough to be surrounded by others. Um, so here's some challenges in modern society, right? um for for better or worse and I I I'm not necessarily sure when society um sort of made this shift but we sort of idolize and aspire um the person has who has become so successful that they don't need others, right? The the rich person who lives sort of outside of town on the house up on the hill by himself, he's he's not down here with the rest of us. He's successful enough that that he can be, you know, out on his own. Um uh so you know there's almost been sort of a societal um uh you know stain if you will of like well if you need other people then you're not a real success right secondly we have all these digital devices now right since since the digital revolution and while they make us more connected virtually to other people in theory they have made us much more disconnected socially and I think the research Arch is super clear on that and I don't think any viewers would would disagree with that. Right? So we kind of, you know, we we retreat almost into our like virtual castles here, right? Like, oh, if I if I'm if I'm not getting along with other people or I feel uncomfortable socially, I can just go into my little virtual world where I'm protected and safe, but you're not getting nourished in that mattering way. And then third, um, for much of the past century, but it's really been accelerating of late, um, the workplace has become so focused on efficiency with, you know, technology and automation etc. Um, that the role for for many people has been compartmentalized, right? you know, uh, back in the old day, you were a master craftsman, uh, who need needed to kind of conceive and and, you know, build whatever you were building from soup to nuts. Now, maybe you're just a bolt tightener somewhere, right? Or you're in the accounting department and you work in just one sort of, you know, very focused task, right? Um, so there's been sort of a diminishment of your ability to matter because you're you're just doing something that is maybe not quite specialized, but maybe just wrote, right? And we've we've heard this term, I'm blanking on the the fellow who wrote the book, um, about job, the rise of jobs, but that there's a lot of jobs out there that just kind of feel like make work jobs in society. And I think a lot of people, you know, uh the surveys are pretty clear. They they feel like their jobs that kind of like I kind of anybody could do this and I'm only really doing it because my life path just just kind of led me here and it's it's it's I don't know what else to do and it's I'm kind of stuck here now. I don't really know how to break out of this. So I'm sure there are other things you could add to that list, but that's already a pretty toxic soup against the individual experiencing a feeling of mattering on a daily basis. I think you've hit on almost all of them. Uh so you talked about the individualism which really has been uh an American ethos since the beginning but it has uh it has been exacerbated by uh research Robert Putnham talks about bowling alone by the idea that we have disconnected from larger institutions. Uh you didn't mention religion. Religion used to be uh it's not a panacea but it was a place it provided an ecosystem of mattering values um gathering together something bigger than yourself um a focus on intrinsic values of wanting to be a good person of wanting to be pro-social. those things were rewarded and selfishness and um you know the opposite of mattering hoarding uh was was looked down upon um you talk about tech tech is certainly a magnifier and an accelerant I would say that tech is not the root and you didn't say that um but I think some people think tech is if not for technology we would be healthy no no technology noticed a a large gaping hole in our societ society and that was the disconnection and they filled it to make money. So they have ex they have accelerated they have magnified these problems that we have seen. Um you talk about uh workplaces uh we there is startling data about how 75% or more of uh employees are disconnected and disengaged. in my mind when I think about the importance of mattering at work and I write about that in my book um this book it it's it's it is part of um it is it is part of workplace culture and and talks about the workplace but it's really a a book of of leadership um I don't call it a leadership book but it very much is a leadership book um and the workplace mattering at work I when I was interviewing families for my first book never enough about achievement culture I was reading the data uh about and this is decades worth of resilience research that children's resilience is rooted on the resilience of the adults in their lives. >> Mhm. And so many of the adults I was talking about were were were confessing that they didn't feel like they mattered at work. As you mentioned, they were showing up 8, 10, 12 hours a day to jobs where they felt invisible, cogs in a wheel, crushed by uh insurance companies, if they were doctors of major medical centers. Um there were uh you know, first responders. There were so many people that were talking about how disengaged they were um at their workplaces. And what I've come to realize is we are right to call uh sound the alarm of the youth mental health crisis, but we would be just as right to be sounding the alarm at the caregiver mental health crisis. And if we are going to make a dent in youth mental health, I think we need to go upstream, take care of the adults in their lives and take care of them in places where they spend the majority of their waking hours and that is at work. So um in my mind the solution, one of the solutions to these crises is to have a more pointed and intentional um create a more intentional culture of mattering at work. That researchers call it the long arm of the job. Meaning that what happens at work does not stay at work. It spills over to other domains. So parents go home. Um they call it proximal separation when you're in the same room as your child but you're not engaged and attuned to them as you would be if you showed up and felt like you mattered if you didn't you know sort of drag yourself over the the doorway threshold uh after a really wearing trying day at work. Um so yes those are those are sort of all of the problems. Um and uh you know I think the solutions start with looking at the workplace and being more intentional about mattering at work. I mean in the next five years Bill Gates next several years Bill Gates has has predicted and others other tech leaders have predicted that humans will not be required for most >> right >> for most from at work but also just in everyday lives humans will not be required for most tasks. So what happens to mattering when we no longer add value? So that's the question that was in my mind as you were saying hey we need to start in the workplace because I was thinking well what's what happens if the workplace goes away from for many people right >> yeah I think that that is uh you know we talk a lot about universal basic income when it comes to AI um and perhaps the need for that but I think we need to go even further we need you know that's that might provide for the food and shelter but that is not going to provide for the other equally important need and that is the need to matter matter. Um there are great companies that are leading the way in this. I think about Walmart. Uh Donna Morris who is the chief people officer there who is being very intentional to be peopleled techdriven. Um so it is being very intentional about connecting employees to their impact to what they do the impact on their colleagues the impact on the company bottom line their impact to society. So helping employees understand the layers of their impact I think will be important. >> Okay. So a whole bunch of questions. Um uh okay before we get to the workplace part of it um let's let's just step back at the individual for a second. So, I'm I'm somebody who is feeling a real der of mattering in my life right now. And and maybe I I you know, I I pick up your book, I read it, I'm inspired by it, I want to get more of this in my life. Um there may be ways to get that through my workplace. Um but I I guess at a more fundamental point, um so meaning in work, okay, that's something you want to have. Presumably there are other elements in your life where meeting matters and connection to your children is one thing you just talked about probably to your family and your friends and your neighbors and your community and all that stuff. Um for the person that doesn't know like where to get started like I really want to matter Jennifer I just don't I mean it's been so long or I've been felt so beaten down or like like how do I start? Do you have sort of a progression or at least some some easy targets to give people? Yeah, I have a few ideas. Um, the the first one is I I in my mind I have a two question litmus test to uh to direct you towards mattering. So the first question I would ask myself is uh do I have people in my life one or two or three people who know me for who I am at my core? In other words, do I allow people to know me? Mhm. >> So that is the first to to to feel valued, you have to be known. The second question I would ask myself >> in meaning like you you have to do the work, right? You have to put yourself out there. You have to risk rejection or making it awkward and you have to invest the time to spend time and probably to learn about them too and let them be vulnerable in return, right? >> You have to have a little bit of social courage. >> Yeah. >> Um and social courage can show up in very small ways. So uh so let's let's go on that tangent first and well the two let me tell you quickly about the the two question litmus test. Sure. >> So so it is do I have people in my life who know me for who I am at my core? In other words, am I willing to be open and honest and vulnerable with the people closest to me? And then the second question is do I add value to the people around me even in small ways? So those are the two things that I would ask myself about mattering. And let's say um I was going through I you know often it's through life transitions that we that our sense of mattering erodess. So the loss of a loved one, losing a job, changing jobs, relocating, retiring, uh becoming a parent, facing an empty nest. All of these major life transitions can disrupt our sense of mattering. And so if you're going through one of those life transitions, the first thing I would say is know that you're not alone. Know that this feeling that you are feeling, this loneliness, this anxiety, lean into it and know that it is a social signal that you need to be reaching out. Um, we too often numb that social signal either with drugs, alcohol, tech, shopping, you know, all of these addictions are are a way of numbing that ache uh to connect. So, first sit with that feeling. Second, find role models. Research finds that role models offer not just uh u role models who have gone through something similar. Not just uh a feeling of being seen and like you aren't alone, but they also offer practical steps of ways that you can get through a difficult transition. So look for role models. Those could be fiction, podcasts, uh non-fiction books, self-help books, friends, people that you know have gone through a similar transition. sit with them, have a cup of coffee, ask them how they got through it. The third step I would say is harness the power of invitations. So often we feel like we need to have our life in order before we accept or issue an invitation for somebody to step into our life, even just in a small way like going for coffee. But there's research that I talk about in the book called the beautiful mess effect, which is this counterintuitive idea that people are more drawn to us and consider us warm and authentic when we don't present as perfect, >> when we present that the little bit of the messiness of our lives. So, um, push yourself to issue an invitation or to an ex or to accept an invitation. There was one widow I interviewed, uh, actually it was a divorce, I'm sorry, a woman who was divorced who talked about how she was no longer invited to couples dinners. And so her therapist gave her the advice to start hosting her own dinner parties. If she wasn't being invited because people felt awkward about her being the fifth wheel, well, take take charge and issue your own invitation. Uh, and so she did, and it transformed her social life. So it will require a little bit of social courage but hopefully you will get that social courage by looking at how others role models have come through it themselves. >> Um there's so many great things in there. Um let me start with that last one. Um so one thing that I have noted in um in in a a prior business we used to talk about this thing called the the eight forms of capital of which money was just one uh and and uh social capital which is a lot of what we're talking about here um was an important one and it's it's one that most people we would do a we would do these conferences and we would ask people to rate themselves their sort of level of wealth in each one of these eight forms of capital and invariably social capital was the one everybody scored themselves the lowest on for a lot of the reasons that we were talking about here. And one of the light bulbs we tried to turn on there is is you know in in today's western society um you know it's kind of a live and let live society and there's my neighbor and you know a lot of people living in culde-sacs who would say yeah I'm kind of on a wave hello basis with most of my neighbors and I know like his first name and I maybe have a sense of what he does but that's about it. That's all I know about them. Right. And so in trying to encourage people to become more socially courageous and and because community bonds are basically built over time, you can't just go to a store and buy it off a shelf, right? You you have to have these repeated interactions that build trust with people, right? And so what you need to do is you need to create the opportunity for those interactions. And a lot of people just feel really awkward like, well, I'm going to I don't want to bother the neighbor, right? And what we've what we've found is that in most cases the neighbors are feeling just as isolated and they would love to have an opportunity to respond to and so to your point earlier like you know to walk through a door somebody has to open it for you right so if you're there opening the door for them they can then walk through right and worst case scenario somebody says no I'm busy or hey I'm not interested but generally like eight or nine times out of 10 they're like absolutely I'd love to attend your dinner party thank you so much for reaching out to do that You're nodding again as I'm saying all this, but to your point that social courage is really, really important. And you'll probably find that the the cost of the social courage is much lower than you expect. Of course, the more you do it, the better you get at it. It it becomes really easy to do. >> I mean, I think about asking the neighbor for the cup of sugar um that we used to do in the 50s and 60s. I I will admit that before researching mattering for the last seven years, I was reluctant to ask for help. Uh I I considered myself pretty self-reliant. I didn't want to be a burden to anyone. Didn't want But what I have come to see is that when I don't ask for help, which I think is even easier than issuing an invitation to dinner to a dinner party. And I'll tell you what I mean. Don't ask for help. Ask, you know, you can ask somebody um could I could I just could I borrow something? Could I borrow the fastest way to get someone to care about you is to ask to borrow a book. Yeah. >> Exactly. So borrowing something and what I what I've come to realize is that asking for help isn't weak. It can actually be an act of generosity because when you ask somebody for help, you are signaling to them, I trust your judgment. I trust your wisdom. I trust your taste. Whatever it is, you are signaling that they matter in some way. And so when you think about asking for help uh in that way, that can help you overcome the bridge. And that might be a first step. and then ask for the dinner. But to start with asking for help in just a small small way, testing the waters that way. >> Yeah. Um your litmus test, your second one there, is do I add value to the people around me even in small ways? My my wife is a coup's therapist and one of the things that the framework that she uses a lot is the Gottman method. They talk about um bids for connection that relationships are basically just a series of bids um that couples make of each other, you know, walk in the door, if I if I come in from from work, do you get up and say hi to me or you just keep sitting there reading your, you know, laptop or whatever, right? Um one is a is is a bid that's been met and it builds connection. The other one is a failed bid and you have enough failed bids over time, you know, you start getting conflict in your relationship, right? Um, so you're kind of doing the physical world version of that, which is, hey, you know, are you out there actually trying to do things large and small to let the folks around you know that you're there, you got their back, right? And and they the government got this concept of an emotional bank account where they they basically say, you know, every bid you make that's received is a deposit in the bank account. every bid that's that fails is a withdrawal. And the problem is is they're not even. A withdrawal is about five times as as as big as a as a a met bid. So you need to have at least five met bids for each failed bid, right? And I'm guessing that's probably a a similar type of equation that you want to do with folks around you is is is try to be cognizant of what your score is. Am I am I am I trying to do these little things for the people around me? Am I doing enough of them for them to start looking at me and saying, "Hey, yeah, this guy matters to me because he's actually proving he's got my back." >> So, there's a formula that I've that I've put together through my research on how to add value, right? That second question of the litmus test. And I've come to realize that adding value equals finding a genuine need in your home, in your neighborhood, in your workplace, in your wider community, plus applying your three T's, your time, your talent, or your treasure to meeting them. So finding a small need and then using what you have to meet it, that is how we add value. And it could be done in the smallest of ways. And and I love that that goes back to sort of my eight forms of capital framework where we would talk about these forms of capital are fungeible. So if you were say poor in material capital like um uh I don't know, you know, a tree fell on my property and I I need to get rid of it, but I don't have a chainsaw, but my neighbor does. And if I don't have enough financial capital to go buy myself a chainsaw, I can go to my neighbor and say, "Hey, um, I'm happy to mow your lawn or babysit your kids or something like that if you'll let me borrow your chainsaw." Right? And so you're using your time and your expertise instead of your treasure in this case, right? So I love your point here which is you can do you know regardless of your station in life you can still be mattering to people and again you can use your money you can use your talent or you can use your time right >> that's right I I think we should also zoom out for a minute um what what drives our sense of mattering I have found is it's the values that we orient our life around. I feel like we need to touch on that just for a second. If I could if I could talk about Tim. Absolutely. >> Okay. So Tim Casser is this amazing researcher on values. He's been studying values for over 40 years. Um and he and others around the world have looked at our core values. And to study them, they break them up into two groups. extrinsic values, things like wanting the big job, wanting to make a lot of money, wanting a big house, wanting status, wanting popularity, a certain image. Those are exttrinsic values. Intrinsic values are things like wanting to be pro-social, wanting to grow deeper connections with people, wanting to be good to the environment, wanting to grow spiritually um as a person. Values operate like a zero- sum game. So the more time and energy you spend pursuing the extrinsic values, those material goals, the less room and time you have in your life for pursuing the intrinsic ones. And here's why this matters. Because extrinsic values have been linked with negative mental health and substance abuse disorder. >> Intrinsic values are linked with the well-being we want for ourselves. So sometimes for people the lack of mattering they are feeling is because they are pursuing too much of their time and energy towards those extrinsic materialistic goals. And I will tell you it is not that people have bad goals bad values or good values. It's that often people who have very materialistic values it's not that they love material goods more. It's often that they don't have strong connected relationships and so they are hoping those materialistic goals will make them desirable relationship partners. >> So So it's like an overcompensation. >> Exactly. And so if you are it's to me that is such a um such a a shift in thinking. If you are finding yourself overly consumed with materialistic goals, you do not have to judge yourself, but hold yourself accountable for how much time and energy you are spending on those goals and ask yourself if your needs would be better met geared towards intrinsic values, towards what mattering supports. >> That's really interesting. And I'm sure that the line is different for every individual, but painting with a broad brush because it's zero sum. Would your recommendation be don't even try for like like I try to get to 50/50 at least? But I'm kind of guessing you would say maybe go like 75 25 intrinsic to exttrinsic >> probably if I were to put a a a formula on it. I mean I am not so here I I almost think that there's another way of looking at it. So, um, in my first book, Never Enough, I write about high achieving families, high achieving kids, high achieving parents, um, >> and how their achievement once they got there didn't necessarily feed their souls the way they hoped it would, right? >> And even worse, uh, their kids were suffering at two to six times uh, they were more likely to suffer from clinical levels of anxiety and depression and two to three times more likely to suffer from substance abuse disorder than the average American teen. And again a lot of this is because of the values they were pursuing. >> So what I would say is there is a great Jesuit motto uh not better than others but better for others. >> And to me orienting I am not telling you not to be ambitious. I get so much joy from achieving. I get so much joy from people reading my book finding it enjoyable. uh selling a lot of copies making an impact that way but it is not uh for my gold stars that I leave in my office that I am working to achieve these goals. It's that I believe that this idea of mattering can really change lives and can help us build those strong deep connections that we are all longing for and too few of us are enjoying right now. So it is not I am not here to say don't achieve. I am saying widen why you're achieving. Widen your lens. You are achieving to make a positive impact on the world. How can you do that? Through your achievements. >> All right. Um you're you're making me think of this Gandhi quote and I'm going to try to pull it up here. Um so, uh I'm going to read it real quickly for those that are listening on the podcast. Says, "Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values, which you were just talking about, and your values become your destiny. And I think you would agree with that last line that your values become your destiny for all the reasons we just talked about. Um, but I usually use that quote to to take it all the way back to beliefs, which is we develop a sense of beliefs just going through life. um you know what our parents instilled in us, our formative life experiences, things that the the world just kind of beat into us by the school of hard knocks. And every so often, I think it's really important to sit back and just sort of re-evaluate your core beliefs because you might find that you're holding on to one that maybe served you at one point in your life, but might not be serving you anymore. And a lot of times when you're you says your values become your destiny, the destiny is the last part of that. If you're not happy with how your destiny is unfolding, it might actually all be rooted in the beliefs that you hold because it starts that whole chain off, right? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. >> I think that I think it really supports what the data shows about materialistic goals and that people are pursuing them in the hopes of being desirable friends of of being worthy enough. I mean we there there's a great theologian um he's passed away now but his name was Henry he a Dutch theologian Henry Nen who talked about the three great lies of our culture I am what I have I am what I do I am what people say and think about me >> and we all absorb it in our wider culture we all absorb those messages those signals it is again not that we have bad values. It's that we are living, we are swimming in waters that are constantly activating our extrinsic values, our consumer culture, our hyper capitalism uh culture that we're living. >> Every advertisement on on on TV or on the media is about buying something extrinsic. It's not about, hey, maybe you should be a better person today. >> Exactly. And the same thing with social media. I think we don't talk about this enough, but in my mind, what is particularly damaging about social media is that it is activating our extrinsic values and we are not aware. We are not cognizant of it. We are passive consumers and it is feeding us the wrong value system. Again, I'm not saying go out and be Mother Teresa. You can enjoy shiny things. You're human. Yes, go for the brass ring, whatever you want to do, but you need to balance it. >> We are very out of balance as a society and mattering is the pathway out the pathway towards those intrinsic values that could you know deliver on the destiny that we all hope for. So, let let me ask you this. Um, and this is this this is really related to thoughtful money and and you know, the fact that everybody here on this channel, myself included, is is really focused on building their financial wealth, you know, to to create a better future for themselves and their families. Um, I'm sure you've heard of Simon SK and his whole focus on, you know, understanding your why, right? And I'm thinking about that a lot as you're talking about here, which is to have a really good grounding in why am I doing this, right? In other words, if I'm if I'm trying to get this win so that I can then afford the big shiny car or the whatever, like you said, that's all fine, but what's the why behind it? Like the car itself is not necessarily going to give you any sort of intrinsic reward at the end of the day. And you know, making it relevant to this channel, I've actually had a number of conversations recently with people, especially older people who have done well, have a lot of money now, and they're in their late 60s, 70s, maybe 80s, and they're kind of saying, "Wait a minute." Like, what's all this money for? Like, why have I been doing this, right? Is it just so I can die with a bunch of money, you know, or is this supposed to be enhancing life in some important way to me that matters? And um I I think I'm finding that a lot of people are so focused on the I must accumulate and then I'll figure it all out that they're they're potentially putting themselves at risk at, you know, getting to the end of their race just age- wise and saying, "Wait a minute. I I focused so much on putting one foot in front of the other. I kind of lost sight of why I was trying to win this race in the first place. >> I would go even further. I think it's important to know your why, but I think there's something even more important than knowing your why. So, can I tell you a quick story? So, in in chapter one, um I talk about the story of a firefighter named Greg who as a rookie was called to a horrific car wreck. A woman was trapped inside. Uh he stayed by her. He put his heavy bunker coat around her to shield her from the shards of glass as they worked to rescue her. Uh he fi they finally got her out. EMS took took over and um took the woman to the hospital and Greg and his crew never found out what happened next. Did the woman survive? Did she ever walk again? Did their efforts that night make any difference? They knew their why. what they didn't know was were they making an impact. So when Greg became a fire chief, he created a system to track the outcomes of rescues because he wanted his firefighters to know, you know, what their actions had done. Um because what I argue in the book is it's not enough to do meaningful and purposeful work. It's not enough to know your why. You need to know your actions make a difference. You need to know that you matter. And so many of us are walking around here with the why but not knowing if they are making an impact. And so this is where workplaces can come in and create systems like Greg did in the fire department where you can let employees know their impact to their colleagues, to their department, to the company's bottom line, to society. Really connect people with their impact. If you work in a workplace or you're not working right now, you can also connect to your impact. You can create what one person I interviewed in the book calls a um an impact file. Uh there's a woman I interviewed who works as a consultant. She saves thank you emails. She when she gets press clippings, she'll put them up in her in her home office as a kind of little trophy wall. This is not vanity. This is about reminding us that what we do is actually making a positive impact out there. So, I would say we we need a Y, but we also need to connect to the impact so that we don't burn out. Greg, the reason I went and embedded with these firefighters for a week was because they were burning out at very high rates >> because they did not know. They were feeling disengaged. They were feeling cynical if their efforts were making a difference. And this system to connect them to their impact made a difference. We also need to connect people to the impact, our friendships, our partners, our children. Um to let them feel like they matter. Appreciate them out loud. Say the thing. Don't just thank people for doing good deeds. Thank them for being the kind of person who does that. >> So, you know, we all need to be connected to our impact. And life is so busy now. >> Um often our efforts go unnoticed. Nobody closes the loop. Nobody gives thank yous in a way that feeds mattering. Instead of thanking somebody for bringing over a pot of soup when you're when you're sick, you and you could say to them, "Thank you for being the kind of neighbor who somehow anticipates what I need even before I do. You are so caring and kind. How lucky I am to have you in my life." Connect people. Uh let them know that they make a difference in your life. So there there's a saying in business that I mention fairly often on this channel which is if it doesn't get measured, it doesn't get moved, >> right? And you're you're basically saying the human equivalent of that, right? Which is, you know, if we can't see its impact, then it doesn't matter, right? Um or at least it doesn't ma we don't realize that we're mattering. Let's put it that way. We might be, but we just don't have the the feedback, right? So putting in these feedback loops that tell us if we're being successful at our efforts is critically important and I get in the workplace how that you know sort of easy to imagine systems like the the fire guy put in. Um so that could be a potential best practice you know for for companies going forward. you know, hey, if you want to get if you want your employees to feel motivated and lean into their jobs, make sure you put in these systems that they can see that their work is actually having the right the right impact a little bit harder and squishier, you know, at the home and in communities. And you gave a couple good examples, but you're kind of making me think maybe there needs to be like a workbook companion to this um that gives people ways to kind of score the the squishier, more human stuff on it because it's just as important, right? You know, it's kind of like my my mention of the Gotman emotional bank account. It's a great framework, but it's not like couples have a literal bank account they're dropping coins in, right? Um, but whatever it is, you know, whether it's it's you have a weekly sit down with your family and you just reflect back, hey, these are the things I I noticed you did this week that really made me feel good or whatever, right? But just uh my next question for you is going to kind of be how do we build these these cultures of mattering in all the places that matter? your home, your community, your your your your workplace, whatever. Um, might you do a workbook or do do you already have some of these things already fleshed out? >> So, so in the book I I get pretty granular. Um, but yes, I I certainly uh am thinking about a workbook companion. Um, the, you know, there are simple mattering happens in small moments. It's not. Yes, you feel it at a retirement party or a milestone birthday when people are giving you toasts, but we need to matter in the everyday. We need those reminders. We need to be connected to our impact. So, here's one small thing you could do. If you're after you're listening to this podcast, send a text to someone in your life and say, "If it wasn't for you, dot dot dot, I wouldn't have had the courage to go on that job interview, thank you for believing in me even before I believed in myself." um if it wasn't for you uh you know we wouldn't have taken that amazing guys trip. You are the glue that keeps us together. Thank you for all your efforts there. Um if it weren't for you, our department wouldn't be as close-knit and supportive and helpful to each other. You you you model this type of behavior and it's contagious to everyone in the department. So there are ways that we can express uh how we matter to each other in small one sentences. There's a there I went um I was giving a keynote once and uh it was at an educational conference and a teacher was getting an award, national award, lovely but what made him tear up was that his colleagues presented him with a gigantic jar of M&M's. Um he that is his favorite snack and they said now you could have all the M&M's you would ever want for your three o'clock snack. He felt seen and known. Mattering is in the details. It is sending the signal that you your efforts you and your preferences are worth remembering and it's just in those small little moments. So this is, you know, food for the soul for the individual. Um it's food for the soul for the soci for society if we have enough individuals that become that matter more, right? Um what's interesting listening to you talk I I there two names that pop into my head. Um one is Makaveli and the other is Maya Angelou. Um, and uh, where I'm going with this is is there there's kind of all sorts of good reasons to do this, right? So, um, I if if if if you just want to um uh, you know, if if you want to feel better about yourself, obviously engaging in this is going to make you feel like you matter more and you're going to feel better, but it's also going to make people you're going to matter more to them. They're going to care more about you. I mean, if you just want to put on your Makia Valley hat for a moment here, you know, it's like you're going to advance your own station here by advancing others. Um, and I don't encourage people to look at it like this, but I'm like, hey, if if you want, you know, if if you're just a real, you know, I guess even the narcissist should care about this is sort of what I'm saying. Um, and then with Maya Maya Angelou, um, she had that that famous quote, and I'm probably going to butcher it here, but it's people aren't going to remember what you said or what you did. They're going to remember how you made them feel, right? And that's a lot of what you're talking about here. And that is sort of a you know if you if you care about the imprint that your life is going to leave um then kind of all these things that you're talking about here in mattering is the path to do that right because at the end of the day what you're doing here is you're really you're building up I hate to say it this way but like like a brand right that when people think of you what are the emotions and the associations that come along with it >> your legacy um Just as important as it is to lead with mattering, uh it's just as important to watch the things that you do sometimes even inadvertently that can make people feel like they don't matter. Incivility, rudeness, being short with someone, not making eye contact, uh never remembering somebody's name or if you have met them before. I mean, one woman I interviewed, I I interviewed so many people. One woman said, "When she really feels like she doesn't matter is when she's constantly introduced to this group of people who pretend like they have never met her before." That is what researchers would call anti-mattering. So, just as important as it is to lead with mattering, we also need to be mindful of the signals we are sending that maybe make people feel like they don't matter. >> Interesting. Yeah. And then that hit me only because there's there sometimes we'll go to a social event where I see people that I don't see very often and I'm like leaning hard on my wife like, "Oh god, what's their name and when did I see them last?" >> And of course, you don't want to give that impression to these people. You want to let them know that that they, you know, you care about them. >> Um, all right. So, yes. So, so not only focus on matter mattering, but but but try to really avoid the anti-atter part of the equation. Um let me just ask you quickly about um the value of this for younger generations. So I presume the sooner in life you kind of crack this code um you're the benefits are going to compound, right? So this is something that that you know if you're a younger listener here, you know, if you're a Gen Zer listening to this, like take really good notes because your life will likely be far richer the sooner you adopt this stuff. Um, but probably in terms of viewers here, Jennifer, we have a lot more people that that have children, um, either still in the home or or they're, you know, they've got kids that are 20 or 30 or whatnot. Um, how can they help the younger generations learn about this? >> Yeah. So, um I just uh uh wrote co-authored a white paper with the Harvard Center on the Developing Child about how mattering starts at the earliest of days in infancy. Uh making eye contact, responding to a cry, all of these are signals that they are valued. As children grow up, um they they feel valued when parents love them unconditionally. uh when they you know there's something called conditional regard which is when parents can be inadvertently warmer and kinder to a child when they perform better whether they when they behave better and I understand that of course but we have to be really clear with our kids that we love them no matter what despite their behavior. We might not agree with the behavior but we should be clear about separating the deed from the doer. Um, another way is prioritizing affection with our kids. Affection. Scott Galloway and I were having a conversation on his podcast and he was saying that affection is the difference between hoping your your parent loves you and knowing they do. >> So, warmth, affection. I say in in my book, Never Enough, which is about young people in achievement culture, greet your kids once a day the way the family dog greets you with just total joy. Our kids don't often get to see the delight we feel from being their parents. We're so busy and consumed getting through our to-do list. So, at least once a day, let them see the delight you get. >> Um, and as they grow up, relying on them, you know, family is the first introduction to society for a child. So giving them meaningful responsibilities, don't call them chores, but ways that our children can really add value to the family. That is how they learn how to matter in our small social unit and it's how we prime young people to be contributing members of society. >> All right, I love that especially that last part, but that last part I think is really important. So here's here's a question around this that I think a lot of parents find challenging and yes we should love our kids unconditionally and you know meet them greet them like the family dog at least once a day and I love that by the way. Um but um you know we we I I think we can contribute you know a meaningful percentage of some of the the challenges and issues that that the younger gen generations have today with helicopter parenting, enabling parenting, bulldozer parenting, you know, whatever whatever you want to call it. Um and part of becoming a fully actualized human being is learning how to overcome adversity, right? learning how to face a challenge, how to fail, how to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, right? So, as a parent, part of being a caring parent in many ways is to push the kids out in the world, let them fend for themselves, not step in to to helicopter or bulldoze when it starts to get tough. How can you h how can you help bridge those two of like you know helping your kids matter but but in some ways by not doing things for them? >> Well, our kids need the social proof that they matter out in the world. So yes, as parents, we are the primary givers of a mattering mindset and these beliefs, but beyond the family, school, relationships with teachers, relationships with peers and the wider community, those are other ways that our kids can develop a sense of mattering and they are important. Um, and so what I would say to parents is uh to to really think about uh letting your kids be exposed to other areas where they can add value and feel valued and also recover. When you give your children an unconditional sense of mattering, setbacks and failures do not feel like an indictment of their worth. >> Mhm. >> They will be able to recover from them. When a parent's love is felt as conditional, the stakes feel much higher both for the parent and for the child. So I would say there's no um mattering and giving your kids freedom to explore and fail and iterate in their lives are not mutually exclusive. If anything, mattering is a pathway to success and achievement because when you believe it, you are willing. When you know you matter for who you are at your core, you are willing to reach for high goals. You are willing to risk failures and setbacks because these are not indictments of who you are. I I constantly try to say to my kids, you are not your successes and you are not your failures. >> That is a very countercultural message in today's world. Um, but it's because of that that my kids reach for high goals. They don't always hit them, but they hit some of them. And when they don't, I'm here to remind them of their worth. I'm here to remind them. There's a there's um this little thing that a a mother that I interviewed for never enough did with her high achieving kids. Whenever her kids would would bomb a test that they studied for or would get rejected by friends or wouldn't make a team, she'd reach into her wallet and she'd grab a $20 bill. And she would hold up the bill to her kids and she would say, "How much is this worth?" And they would say, "$20." And she'd say, "Okay, hang on a second." She'd wrinkle it up, dunk it in a glass of water very dramatically, hold up this dirty, wrinkled, soggy bill. And she would say, "What is this worth now?" and they would say $20 and she said like this $20 bill your worth doesn't change whether you've been knocked down, rejected, bomb test, your worth is your worth no matter what. So it is the job of a parent in my mind to convince their child of their worth outside of our capitalistic system because it is only that is that to me is the best gift we could give our children if we want to put them out into the world and give them the tools and the bandwidth and the mattering to spare. I I like that a lot. And this is your in your your twopoint litmus test. Number one is do I have people who know me for who I truly am. That's really what you're talking about here, right? Hey, you know, you took a risk. It didn't work out. What went sideways on you, but I'm here to remind you, you know, of who you are at your core. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, go back at it. >> Exactly. >> All right. Um, well, Jennifer, I I really love this. Um, let me ask you this. Um, two two last concluding questions here. Um, okay. So, uh, America watches this video and says Jennifer's got it. So, everybody votes to make you empress and and we've got to implement the reforms uh that that you say we should we should prioritize most highly. What's near the top of the list? I mean I would I would be looking at policy through the lens of mattering. So I would be making uh mattering a public health priority. What does that mean? It means supporting caregivers. It means um supporting people in neighborhoods who are knitting people together. Uh it means going into workplaces and talking about the importance of mattering. um >> putting in those those reporting >> putting in those practices um you know and um I would reduce the anti-mattering public rhetoric uh that I think is is so damaging. If we can go upstream and we can feed people a sense of mattering they will not have to scream across party lines. They will not have to go in with a gun and shoot up a workplace or a school. >> They will know that they matter. They will not have to prove it in those negative ways. So, I would make mattering a public health priority and I would use it as a lens. Um, you know, in any policy, are there people that are going to be left feeling like they don't matter? What can we do about that? >> Can I toss out an example to get you to react to? Um because uh all that sounds great to me and um I think there really is something there there about um behavioral economist Peter Outwwater says, you know, when people get desperate, they act desperately, right? Um and when somebody feels like they don't matter, and again it's it's it carries that emotional weight we talked about earlier of like it's like a threat of death, right? you have to sort of prove to yourself that you matter and you can you out of desperation you can do that in ways that are actually really highly destructive right the person that goes and cheats a school or whatever right um and look I'm I'm my own personal bias you don't have to share it um you know there's there's a a big debate going on in law enforcement and should we be sending social workers in for certain things than policemen and absolutely there are things that probably police people aren't trained in but at the end of the day violent criminal you probably want a cop who knows how to deal with that than than some poor social worker that that might not be prepared for for might be coming back on that. But that being said, you know, I think if we can get to the if we can catch these things before they get to the point where the person is taking the desperate act, um, you know, we might be able to to dramatically reduce a lot of these these adverse outcomes that we're currently seeing in society. So, what do you think of the idea of like national service? And I don't necessarily mean military service, although that certainly could be part of it, but like hey, you know, for two years of your life when you're young, you're going to be stationed somewhere doing something that is going to matter to the country's interests and you're going to be surrounded by people whom you are you would not normally get to know. You're going to form bonds with them, learn that you have commonalities all these other people. Would this be one of the ideas in your policy set you might think about? >> Absolutely. A volunteer core. I actually had a conversation with uh the former president of Harvard College, Claudine Gay. Um I'm an alum and I was talking to her about, you know, how elite colleges are bragging about the, you know, being the most rejective. And if we have so many young people who are interested in going to these colleges, why don't we have a year program where they travel as a cohort and they solve or they work to solve a a problem in the world and add value in that way and make that part of the college experience and that way we could we could educate way more people um and we could be solving for real world problems and we could be feeding a sense of mattering. So this is something that I have always uh wished for and I don't know that we would do it at a national level although I would love it. Uh I but I do think it's something that colleges um you know could enforce uh and and um you know create these whole new cohorts of people who go out into the world and solve real world problems before coming to campus. So it would hopefully lower the college debt. It would add mattering and value. You would be with your cohort. You would be adding value. I I think it's a win-win. Um she wasn't really interested in my proposal. >> Well, yeah. Um probably because it's, you know, taking money out of the pockets of the institutions that are making a ton of money right now. Um but okay. Um I'm I'm at least glad to hear that that resonates with you because that's something that I've always thought was a was a good idea. Um, all right. Um, is there anything else that's important to this topic of mattering that I just haven't thought to think of to ask you about yet? >> I would just say that, um, you know, simply put, if you're feeling like you don't matter right now, you are literally one action away from mattering again. It could be sending the text to someone that if it wasn't for you. It could be walking out your front door and thanking the mail carrier who always greets you with a smile and say, "You know, the days have been long, but your smile always warms me up. Thank you for being such a positive force in the world." The fastest way to feel like you matter again is to remind someone else why they do. >> Wonderful. Wonderful parting advice. Um, all right. Well, look, for folks that have really enjoyed this discussion, uh, two questions. One, uh, your book, Mattering, um, they can pretty much get that anywhere books are sold. >> Yes. >> Okay. And then secondly, beyond reading your book, if they would like to follow you and your work, where should they go? >> Um, I have a newsletter uh at jenniferbwallis.com. I'm also on Instagram at jenniferhennywallis giving tips on mattering and also on LinkedIn. All right, fantastic. Um, so Jennifer, when I edit this, I'll put up the links there to your newsletter and to your Instagram. Um, the LinkedIn links are usually pretty darn long. So, I'll put all three as well in the description below this video so folks can get there with one click if they want to. Um, this has been uh just a total joy. Uh, thank you so much for doing this. Um, as I said, you know, this whole thing about, you know, mattering, purpose, social connection, etc., health, both mental and physical. Those are really the things that that matter at the end of the day and uh I I'm really appreciative that you give me a chance to go really deep on that today for today's audience. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. And I really wish uh all the best with you and your continued work here. What you're doing is very important. Um so anyways, Jennifer, thank you so much. >> Thanks for helping me spread the word on mattering. >> All right. And everybody else, thanks so much for watching.
How To Matter & Live With Purpose | Jennifer Wallace
Summary
Transcript
Welcome to Thoughtful Money. I'm its founder and your host, Adam Tagert. While we talk about money a lot on this program, it's very important to keep in mind that money is a means to wealth. It's not true wealth in and of itself. True wealth is pretty simple when you boil it down. It's having quality relationships, a sense of purpose, and good health. Today on this special Christmas release, we're going to dive deeply into the first two of those. We're fortunate to be joined by Jennifer Wallace, New York Times best-selling author. She's got a new book out titled Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us today. >> Oh, thanks so much for having me. I I would actually argue we're going to dive into all three because without social health, we don't have physical health. >> Great point. All right, we'll make it a trifecta. Um, fantastic. Okay, so yes, uh, I've been very excited for this interview. Uh, your people reached out to me as I was telling you, I I don't take I get I mean, I literally get hit every couple hours by people who are pitching a speaker, many of whom are just not a good fit for this channel in any way, shape, or form. But um you know yours was was different than my normal fair but but very of interest to me for the reason that I I remind people on this channel as I just did in the intro. you this channel is all about wealth building and so we're so focused on money in that discussion but we got to remember that money isn't the end goal right and if we're looking to lead uh live lead and live um happy fulfilled lives what are the things that are really important there and they're the the three things that we talked about and your book mattering uh is right in the strike zone as you just said maybe it applies to actually all three of those so it's it's the perfect topic if you will here so um why don't we just dive right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right into this I know that you uh have done a lot of research for this book and and also the previous book that you wrote that I'm sure we'll talk about a bit too. Why is mattering so important to the human condition? Um >> well yeah you know why why does it matter? What are its benefits like what what does it give us and and you know maybe kind of once you've answered all that what sparked you to write the book now about mattering? So mattering is a fundamental human need that all of us have all over the world. Uh simply defined as feeling valued by family, friends, community and having an opportunity to add value back. And for so many people today, this need is going unmet. People feel lonely. They don't feel valued. They are disengaged at work. They don't know how they're adding value. So, and I'm sure we'll get into this. There are a variety of reasons why there's been this, as I call it, an erosion or a crisis of mattering in our culture today. But it is important because when we feel like we matter, and this is decades worth of research, uh when we feel like we matter, we show up to the world in positive ways. We want to engage. We want to connect. We want to contribute. But when we are chronically made to feel like we don't matter, some of us withdraw, become anxious, depressed. Some people might turn to substances to try to alleviate the pain. >> Others lash out in anger, road rage, political extremes, uh, mass shootings. These are these can be seen as desperate attempts to say, "I'll show you I matter." And we have for so long treated mattering like a nice to have feeling. Um it is actually so much more fundamental than that and we need to go back to meeting that need. >> All right. So I I I'm curious if your research >> goes here but so clearly say the research um says that mattering is important perhaps essential uh to to humans or at least human thriving. Um, does it get to like why? I mean, evolutionarily you could say, look, if if if if you were just a domesticated house pet and somebody fed you and sheltered you, why isn't that good enough? Why isn't that winning evolutionarily? Right? Why do we have to matter? >> Yeah. So, let's go back to evolution. For our earliest ancestors, feeling valued by the group and knowing that you add value to the group was what protected you. It's what kept you fed. What's it's what kept you protected from the elements. Um when you were made to feel like you didn't matter, when you were pushed out, rejected, that was certain death. And so we have evolved to to to uh crave that sense of mattering, that social proof that we matter to the group. Um and back then it was life or death. And frankly, I would argue today mattering is still life or death. When we don't have a sense of mattering, we are not socially connected. It damages our mental health. It damages our social health and ultimately it damages our physical health. loneliness, anxiety, depression, disengagement, meaninglessness, purposelessness. This is uh this is painful. This is a painful way to go through life. Mattering is really the pathway to thriving and to what some might be seeking, happiness. Happiness has never been my goal. Um living a productive, meaningful life is more important to me. But if people are looking to be happy, I will tell them that the research shows there is one pathway and that is to matter to other people. Christopher Peterson who was a brilliant um psychologist at the University of Michigan and one of the grandfathers of the positive psychology uh movement uh had this famous quote that was other people matter. When it comes to happiness, other people matter. I I it's as simple as that. >> So So interesting. And you're actually connecting a bunch of dots um on past discussions that I've had on this channel. One of which was the author Sebastian Younger. Um he wrote the book The Perfect Storm. He's probably best known for that, but he's written a whole bunch of others. And one of his books that made a big difference on me was his book uh tribe. Um I can't remember the exact title but it it had to do with with you know on belonging and and and being connected to others basically on homecoming and belonging. That's what it was tribe on homecoming and belonging. And it really got to the point of sort of why we need social connection is because we are social tribal creatures. That's what we evolved to be in. Right. And um and uh that connected with what I've heard Scott Galloway uh talk about which what which you just mentioned there is in in a tribe back in caveman days, right? Um if the tribe exiled you to your point that was death, right? Like it was it was an environment where the individual the solo individual really couldn't exist on their own. you needed the other people in that tribe to do the things for you that you couldn't to watch your back against other waring tribes or predators or whatever or share some of their food when you didn't catch, you know, a rabbit that day, that type of stuff. Um, so to your point, that is hardwired into our psyche that um, a we need to be in in unity with with the folks around us, but b if we're not if we don't matter, if they've determined we don't matter to them, that feels like an existential not just sense of rejection, but like an existential threat to us living. >> Oh, I'm saying all this. Yeah. >> Oh, absolutely. I have I was jotting down notes of things I didn't want to forget to say. Um there there is a study that I write about uh that looked at men who were suicidal and they found that two of the most common words they use to describe their pain was worthless and useless. >> So these are not just uh you know uncomfortable feelings. These are existential uh threats to our humanity. Uh also you you talked about the importance of belonging. Mattering as researchers define it is a meta need or an umbrella term meaning it's a need that sits above other needs. So after the drive for food and shelter it is the drive to matter that shapes human behavior for better or for worse. Um, when you think about a meta need, mattering has underneath it belonging, connection, mastery, self-determination, all of these other human needs that we we all long to meet. Um, but mattering goes deeper. So, you can belong to the accounting department at your firm and not feel like you actually matter to those people. You can be a part of a neighborhood and not feel like you matter. You could feel invisible there. You can belong to a family uh and not feel like you matter to that family. So mattering takes belonging and and um offers us the proof that we actually uh are making an impact a positive impact in the world around us. So belonging tells you you have a seat at the table. Mattering tells you that your voice, your input makes a positive difference. >> Okay? And to matter, obviously, you need that positive element to it. It's not just enough to be surrounded by others. Um, so here's some challenges in modern society, right? um for for better or worse and I I I'm not necessarily sure when society um sort of made this shift but we sort of idolize and aspire um the person has who has become so successful that they don't need others, right? The the rich person who lives sort of outside of town on the house up on the hill by himself, he's he's not down here with the rest of us. He's successful enough that that he can be, you know, out on his own. Um uh so you know there's almost been sort of a societal um uh you know stain if you will of like well if you need other people then you're not a real success right secondly we have all these digital devices now right since since the digital revolution and while they make us more connected virtually to other people in theory they have made us much more disconnected socially and I think the research Arch is super clear on that and I don't think any viewers would would disagree with that. Right? So we kind of, you know, we we retreat almost into our like virtual castles here, right? Like, oh, if I if I'm if I'm not getting along with other people or I feel uncomfortable socially, I can just go into my little virtual world where I'm protected and safe, but you're not getting nourished in that mattering way. And then third, um, for much of the past century, but it's really been accelerating of late, um, the workplace has become so focused on efficiency with, you know, technology and automation etc. Um, that the role for for many people has been compartmentalized, right? you know, uh, back in the old day, you were a master craftsman, uh, who need needed to kind of conceive and and, you know, build whatever you were building from soup to nuts. Now, maybe you're just a bolt tightener somewhere, right? Or you're in the accounting department and you work in just one sort of, you know, very focused task, right? Um, so there's been sort of a diminishment of your ability to matter because you're you're just doing something that is maybe not quite specialized, but maybe just wrote, right? And we've we've heard this term, I'm blanking on the the fellow who wrote the book, um, about job, the rise of jobs, but that there's a lot of jobs out there that just kind of feel like make work jobs in society. And I think a lot of people, you know, uh the surveys are pretty clear. They they feel like their jobs that kind of like I kind of anybody could do this and I'm only really doing it because my life path just just kind of led me here and it's it's it's I don't know what else to do and it's I'm kind of stuck here now. I don't really know how to break out of this. So I'm sure there are other things you could add to that list, but that's already a pretty toxic soup against the individual experiencing a feeling of mattering on a daily basis. I think you've hit on almost all of them. Uh so you talked about the individualism which really has been uh an American ethos since the beginning but it has uh it has been exacerbated by uh research Robert Putnham talks about bowling alone by the idea that we have disconnected from larger institutions. Uh you didn't mention religion. Religion used to be uh it's not a panacea but it was a place it provided an ecosystem of mattering values um gathering together something bigger than yourself um a focus on intrinsic values of wanting to be a good person of wanting to be pro-social. those things were rewarded and selfishness and um you know the opposite of mattering hoarding uh was was looked down upon um you talk about tech tech is certainly a magnifier and an accelerant I would say that tech is not the root and you didn't say that um but I think some people think tech is if not for technology we would be healthy no no technology noticed a a large gaping hole in our societ society and that was the disconnection and they filled it to make money. So they have ex they have accelerated they have magnified these problems that we have seen. Um you talk about uh workplaces uh we there is startling data about how 75% or more of uh employees are disconnected and disengaged. in my mind when I think about the importance of mattering at work and I write about that in my book um this book it it's it's it is part of um it is it is part of workplace culture and and talks about the workplace but it's really a a book of of leadership um I don't call it a leadership book but it very much is a leadership book um and the workplace mattering at work I when I was interviewing families for my first book never enough about achievement culture I was reading the data uh about and this is decades worth of resilience research that children's resilience is rooted on the resilience of the adults in their lives. >> Mhm. And so many of the adults I was talking about were were were confessing that they didn't feel like they mattered at work. As you mentioned, they were showing up 8, 10, 12 hours a day to jobs where they felt invisible, cogs in a wheel, crushed by uh insurance companies, if they were doctors of major medical centers. Um there were uh you know, first responders. There were so many people that were talking about how disengaged they were um at their workplaces. And what I've come to realize is we are right to call uh sound the alarm of the youth mental health crisis, but we would be just as right to be sounding the alarm at the caregiver mental health crisis. And if we are going to make a dent in youth mental health, I think we need to go upstream, take care of the adults in their lives and take care of them in places where they spend the majority of their waking hours and that is at work. So um in my mind the solution, one of the solutions to these crises is to have a more pointed and intentional um create a more intentional culture of mattering at work. That researchers call it the long arm of the job. Meaning that what happens at work does not stay at work. It spills over to other domains. So parents go home. Um they call it proximal separation when you're in the same room as your child but you're not engaged and attuned to them as you would be if you showed up and felt like you mattered if you didn't you know sort of drag yourself over the the doorway threshold uh after a really wearing trying day at work. Um so yes those are those are sort of all of the problems. Um and uh you know I think the solutions start with looking at the workplace and being more intentional about mattering at work. I mean in the next five years Bill Gates next several years Bill Gates has has predicted and others other tech leaders have predicted that humans will not be required for most >> right >> for most from at work but also just in everyday lives humans will not be required for most tasks. So what happens to mattering when we no longer add value? So that's the question that was in my mind as you were saying hey we need to start in the workplace because I was thinking well what's what happens if the workplace goes away from for many people right >> yeah I think that that is uh you know we talk a lot about universal basic income when it comes to AI um and perhaps the need for that but I think we need to go even further we need you know that's that might provide for the food and shelter but that is not going to provide for the other equally important need and that is the need to matter matter. Um there are great companies that are leading the way in this. I think about Walmart. Uh Donna Morris who is the chief people officer there who is being very intentional to be peopleled techdriven. Um so it is being very intentional about connecting employees to their impact to what they do the impact on their colleagues the impact on the company bottom line their impact to society. So helping employees understand the layers of their impact I think will be important. >> Okay. So a whole bunch of questions. Um uh okay before we get to the workplace part of it um let's let's just step back at the individual for a second. So, I'm I'm somebody who is feeling a real der of mattering in my life right now. And and maybe I I you know, I I pick up your book, I read it, I'm inspired by it, I want to get more of this in my life. Um there may be ways to get that through my workplace. Um but I I guess at a more fundamental point, um so meaning in work, okay, that's something you want to have. Presumably there are other elements in your life where meeting matters and connection to your children is one thing you just talked about probably to your family and your friends and your neighbors and your community and all that stuff. Um for the person that doesn't know like where to get started like I really want to matter Jennifer I just don't I mean it's been so long or I've been felt so beaten down or like like how do I start? Do you have sort of a progression or at least some some easy targets to give people? Yeah, I have a few ideas. Um, the the first one is I I in my mind I have a two question litmus test to uh to direct you towards mattering. So the first question I would ask myself is uh do I have people in my life one or two or three people who know me for who I am at my core? In other words, do I allow people to know me? Mhm. >> So that is the first to to to feel valued, you have to be known. The second question I would ask myself >> in meaning like you you have to do the work, right? You have to put yourself out there. You have to risk rejection or making it awkward and you have to invest the time to spend time and probably to learn about them too and let them be vulnerable in return, right? >> You have to have a little bit of social courage. >> Yeah. >> Um and social courage can show up in very small ways. So uh so let's let's go on that tangent first and well the two let me tell you quickly about the the two question litmus test. Sure. >> So so it is do I have people in my life who know me for who I am at my core? In other words, am I willing to be open and honest and vulnerable with the people closest to me? And then the second question is do I add value to the people around me even in small ways? So those are the two things that I would ask myself about mattering. And let's say um I was going through I you know often it's through life transitions that we that our sense of mattering erodess. So the loss of a loved one, losing a job, changing jobs, relocating, retiring, uh becoming a parent, facing an empty nest. All of these major life transitions can disrupt our sense of mattering. And so if you're going through one of those life transitions, the first thing I would say is know that you're not alone. Know that this feeling that you are feeling, this loneliness, this anxiety, lean into it and know that it is a social signal that you need to be reaching out. Um, we too often numb that social signal either with drugs, alcohol, tech, shopping, you know, all of these addictions are are a way of numbing that ache uh to connect. So, first sit with that feeling. Second, find role models. Research finds that role models offer not just uh u role models who have gone through something similar. Not just uh a feeling of being seen and like you aren't alone, but they also offer practical steps of ways that you can get through a difficult transition. So look for role models. Those could be fiction, podcasts, uh non-fiction books, self-help books, friends, people that you know have gone through a similar transition. sit with them, have a cup of coffee, ask them how they got through it. The third step I would say is harness the power of invitations. So often we feel like we need to have our life in order before we accept or issue an invitation for somebody to step into our life, even just in a small way like going for coffee. But there's research that I talk about in the book called the beautiful mess effect, which is this counterintuitive idea that people are more drawn to us and consider us warm and authentic when we don't present as perfect, >> when we present that the little bit of the messiness of our lives. So, um, push yourself to issue an invitation or to an ex or to accept an invitation. There was one widow I interviewed, uh, actually it was a divorce, I'm sorry, a woman who was divorced who talked about how she was no longer invited to couples dinners. And so her therapist gave her the advice to start hosting her own dinner parties. If she wasn't being invited because people felt awkward about her being the fifth wheel, well, take take charge and issue your own invitation. Uh, and so she did, and it transformed her social life. So it will require a little bit of social courage but hopefully you will get that social courage by looking at how others role models have come through it themselves. >> Um there's so many great things in there. Um let me start with that last one. Um so one thing that I have noted in um in in a a prior business we used to talk about this thing called the the eight forms of capital of which money was just one uh and and uh social capital which is a lot of what we're talking about here um was an important one and it's it's one that most people we would do a we would do these conferences and we would ask people to rate themselves their sort of level of wealth in each one of these eight forms of capital and invariably social capital was the one everybody scored themselves the lowest on for a lot of the reasons that we were talking about here. And one of the light bulbs we tried to turn on there is is you know in in today's western society um you know it's kind of a live and let live society and there's my neighbor and you know a lot of people living in culde-sacs who would say yeah I'm kind of on a wave hello basis with most of my neighbors and I know like his first name and I maybe have a sense of what he does but that's about it. That's all I know about them. Right. And so in trying to encourage people to become more socially courageous and and because community bonds are basically built over time, you can't just go to a store and buy it off a shelf, right? You you have to have these repeated interactions that build trust with people, right? And so what you need to do is you need to create the opportunity for those interactions. And a lot of people just feel really awkward like, well, I'm going to I don't want to bother the neighbor, right? And what we've what we've found is that in most cases the neighbors are feeling just as isolated and they would love to have an opportunity to respond to and so to your point earlier like you know to walk through a door somebody has to open it for you right so if you're there opening the door for them they can then walk through right and worst case scenario somebody says no I'm busy or hey I'm not interested but generally like eight or nine times out of 10 they're like absolutely I'd love to attend your dinner party thank you so much for reaching out to do that You're nodding again as I'm saying all this, but to your point that social courage is really, really important. And you'll probably find that the the cost of the social courage is much lower than you expect. Of course, the more you do it, the better you get at it. It it becomes really easy to do. >> I mean, I think about asking the neighbor for the cup of sugar um that we used to do in the 50s and 60s. I I will admit that before researching mattering for the last seven years, I was reluctant to ask for help. Uh I I considered myself pretty self-reliant. I didn't want to be a burden to anyone. Didn't want But what I have come to see is that when I don't ask for help, which I think is even easier than issuing an invitation to dinner to a dinner party. And I'll tell you what I mean. Don't ask for help. Ask, you know, you can ask somebody um could I could I just could I borrow something? Could I borrow the fastest way to get someone to care about you is to ask to borrow a book. Yeah. >> Exactly. So borrowing something and what I what I've come to realize is that asking for help isn't weak. It can actually be an act of generosity because when you ask somebody for help, you are signaling to them, I trust your judgment. I trust your wisdom. I trust your taste. Whatever it is, you are signaling that they matter in some way. And so when you think about asking for help uh in that way, that can help you overcome the bridge. And that might be a first step. and then ask for the dinner. But to start with asking for help in just a small small way, testing the waters that way. >> Yeah. Um your litmus test, your second one there, is do I add value to the people around me even in small ways? My my wife is a coup's therapist and one of the things that the framework that she uses a lot is the Gottman method. They talk about um bids for connection that relationships are basically just a series of bids um that couples make of each other, you know, walk in the door, if I if I come in from from work, do you get up and say hi to me or you just keep sitting there reading your, you know, laptop or whatever, right? Um one is a is is a bid that's been met and it builds connection. The other one is a failed bid and you have enough failed bids over time, you know, you start getting conflict in your relationship, right? Um, so you're kind of doing the physical world version of that, which is, hey, you know, are you out there actually trying to do things large and small to let the folks around you know that you're there, you got their back, right? And and they the government got this concept of an emotional bank account where they they basically say, you know, every bid you make that's received is a deposit in the bank account. every bid that's that fails is a withdrawal. And the problem is is they're not even. A withdrawal is about five times as as as big as a as a a met bid. So you need to have at least five met bids for each failed bid, right? And I'm guessing that's probably a a similar type of equation that you want to do with folks around you is is is try to be cognizant of what your score is. Am I am I am I trying to do these little things for the people around me? Am I doing enough of them for them to start looking at me and saying, "Hey, yeah, this guy matters to me because he's actually proving he's got my back." >> So, there's a formula that I've that I've put together through my research on how to add value, right? That second question of the litmus test. And I've come to realize that adding value equals finding a genuine need in your home, in your neighborhood, in your workplace, in your wider community, plus applying your three T's, your time, your talent, or your treasure to meeting them. So finding a small need and then using what you have to meet it, that is how we add value. And it could be done in the smallest of ways. And and I love that that goes back to sort of my eight forms of capital framework where we would talk about these forms of capital are fungeible. So if you were say poor in material capital like um uh I don't know, you know, a tree fell on my property and I I need to get rid of it, but I don't have a chainsaw, but my neighbor does. And if I don't have enough financial capital to go buy myself a chainsaw, I can go to my neighbor and say, "Hey, um, I'm happy to mow your lawn or babysit your kids or something like that if you'll let me borrow your chainsaw." Right? And so you're using your time and your expertise instead of your treasure in this case, right? So I love your point here which is you can do you know regardless of your station in life you can still be mattering to people and again you can use your money you can use your talent or you can use your time right >> that's right I I think we should also zoom out for a minute um what what drives our sense of mattering I have found is it's the values that we orient our life around. I feel like we need to touch on that just for a second. If I could if I could talk about Tim. Absolutely. >> Okay. So Tim Casser is this amazing researcher on values. He's been studying values for over 40 years. Um and he and others around the world have looked at our core values. And to study them, they break them up into two groups. extrinsic values, things like wanting the big job, wanting to make a lot of money, wanting a big house, wanting status, wanting popularity, a certain image. Those are exttrinsic values. Intrinsic values are things like wanting to be pro-social, wanting to grow deeper connections with people, wanting to be good to the environment, wanting to grow spiritually um as a person. Values operate like a zero- sum game. So the more time and energy you spend pursuing the extrinsic values, those material goals, the less room and time you have in your life for pursuing the intrinsic ones. And here's why this matters. Because extrinsic values have been linked with negative mental health and substance abuse disorder. >> Intrinsic values are linked with the well-being we want for ourselves. So sometimes for people the lack of mattering they are feeling is because they are pursuing too much of their time and energy towards those extrinsic materialistic goals. And I will tell you it is not that people have bad goals bad values or good values. It's that often people who have very materialistic values it's not that they love material goods more. It's often that they don't have strong connected relationships and so they are hoping those materialistic goals will make them desirable relationship partners. >> So So it's like an overcompensation. >> Exactly. And so if you are it's to me that is such a um such a a shift in thinking. If you are finding yourself overly consumed with materialistic goals, you do not have to judge yourself, but hold yourself accountable for how much time and energy you are spending on those goals and ask yourself if your needs would be better met geared towards intrinsic values, towards what mattering supports. >> That's really interesting. And I'm sure that the line is different for every individual, but painting with a broad brush because it's zero sum. Would your recommendation be don't even try for like like I try to get to 50/50 at least? But I'm kind of guessing you would say maybe go like 75 25 intrinsic to exttrinsic >> probably if I were to put a a a formula on it. I mean I am not so here I I almost think that there's another way of looking at it. So, um, in my first book, Never Enough, I write about high achieving families, high achieving kids, high achieving parents, um, >> and how their achievement once they got there didn't necessarily feed their souls the way they hoped it would, right? >> And even worse, uh, their kids were suffering at two to six times uh, they were more likely to suffer from clinical levels of anxiety and depression and two to three times more likely to suffer from substance abuse disorder than the average American teen. And again a lot of this is because of the values they were pursuing. >> So what I would say is there is a great Jesuit motto uh not better than others but better for others. >> And to me orienting I am not telling you not to be ambitious. I get so much joy from achieving. I get so much joy from people reading my book finding it enjoyable. uh selling a lot of copies making an impact that way but it is not uh for my gold stars that I leave in my office that I am working to achieve these goals. It's that I believe that this idea of mattering can really change lives and can help us build those strong deep connections that we are all longing for and too few of us are enjoying right now. So it is not I am not here to say don't achieve. I am saying widen why you're achieving. Widen your lens. You are achieving to make a positive impact on the world. How can you do that? Through your achievements. >> All right. Um you're you're making me think of this Gandhi quote and I'm going to try to pull it up here. Um so, uh I'm going to read it real quickly for those that are listening on the podcast. Says, "Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values, which you were just talking about, and your values become your destiny. And I think you would agree with that last line that your values become your destiny for all the reasons we just talked about. Um, but I usually use that quote to to take it all the way back to beliefs, which is we develop a sense of beliefs just going through life. um you know what our parents instilled in us, our formative life experiences, things that the the world just kind of beat into us by the school of hard knocks. And every so often, I think it's really important to sit back and just sort of re-evaluate your core beliefs because you might find that you're holding on to one that maybe served you at one point in your life, but might not be serving you anymore. And a lot of times when you're you says your values become your destiny, the destiny is the last part of that. If you're not happy with how your destiny is unfolding, it might actually all be rooted in the beliefs that you hold because it starts that whole chain off, right? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. >> I think that I think it really supports what the data shows about materialistic goals and that people are pursuing them in the hopes of being desirable friends of of being worthy enough. I mean we there there's a great theologian um he's passed away now but his name was Henry he a Dutch theologian Henry Nen who talked about the three great lies of our culture I am what I have I am what I do I am what people say and think about me >> and we all absorb it in our wider culture we all absorb those messages those signals it is again not that we have bad values. It's that we are living, we are swimming in waters that are constantly activating our extrinsic values, our consumer culture, our hyper capitalism uh culture that we're living. >> Every advertisement on on on TV or on the media is about buying something extrinsic. It's not about, hey, maybe you should be a better person today. >> Exactly. And the same thing with social media. I think we don't talk about this enough, but in my mind, what is particularly damaging about social media is that it is activating our extrinsic values and we are not aware. We are not cognizant of it. We are passive consumers and it is feeding us the wrong value system. Again, I'm not saying go out and be Mother Teresa. You can enjoy shiny things. You're human. Yes, go for the brass ring, whatever you want to do, but you need to balance it. >> We are very out of balance as a society and mattering is the pathway out the pathway towards those intrinsic values that could you know deliver on the destiny that we all hope for. So, let let me ask you this. Um, and this is this this is really related to thoughtful money and and you know, the fact that everybody here on this channel, myself included, is is really focused on building their financial wealth, you know, to to create a better future for themselves and their families. Um, I'm sure you've heard of Simon SK and his whole focus on, you know, understanding your why, right? And I'm thinking about that a lot as you're talking about here, which is to have a really good grounding in why am I doing this, right? In other words, if I'm if I'm trying to get this win so that I can then afford the big shiny car or the whatever, like you said, that's all fine, but what's the why behind it? Like the car itself is not necessarily going to give you any sort of intrinsic reward at the end of the day. And you know, making it relevant to this channel, I've actually had a number of conversations recently with people, especially older people who have done well, have a lot of money now, and they're in their late 60s, 70s, maybe 80s, and they're kind of saying, "Wait a minute." Like, what's all this money for? Like, why have I been doing this, right? Is it just so I can die with a bunch of money, you know, or is this supposed to be enhancing life in some important way to me that matters? And um I I think I'm finding that a lot of people are so focused on the I must accumulate and then I'll figure it all out that they're they're potentially putting themselves at risk at, you know, getting to the end of their race just age- wise and saying, "Wait a minute. I I focused so much on putting one foot in front of the other. I kind of lost sight of why I was trying to win this race in the first place. >> I would go even further. I think it's important to know your why, but I think there's something even more important than knowing your why. So, can I tell you a quick story? So, in in chapter one, um I talk about the story of a firefighter named Greg who as a rookie was called to a horrific car wreck. A woman was trapped inside. Uh he stayed by her. He put his heavy bunker coat around her to shield her from the shards of glass as they worked to rescue her. Uh he fi they finally got her out. EMS took took over and um took the woman to the hospital and Greg and his crew never found out what happened next. Did the woman survive? Did she ever walk again? Did their efforts that night make any difference? They knew their why. what they didn't know was were they making an impact. So when Greg became a fire chief, he created a system to track the outcomes of rescues because he wanted his firefighters to know, you know, what their actions had done. Um because what I argue in the book is it's not enough to do meaningful and purposeful work. It's not enough to know your why. You need to know your actions make a difference. You need to know that you matter. And so many of us are walking around here with the why but not knowing if they are making an impact. And so this is where workplaces can come in and create systems like Greg did in the fire department where you can let employees know their impact to their colleagues, to their department, to the company's bottom line, to society. Really connect people with their impact. If you work in a workplace or you're not working right now, you can also connect to your impact. You can create what one person I interviewed in the book calls a um an impact file. Uh there's a woman I interviewed who works as a consultant. She saves thank you emails. She when she gets press clippings, she'll put them up in her in her home office as a kind of little trophy wall. This is not vanity. This is about reminding us that what we do is actually making a positive impact out there. So, I would say we we need a Y, but we also need to connect to the impact so that we don't burn out. Greg, the reason I went and embedded with these firefighters for a week was because they were burning out at very high rates >> because they did not know. They were feeling disengaged. They were feeling cynical if their efforts were making a difference. And this system to connect them to their impact made a difference. We also need to connect people to the impact, our friendships, our partners, our children. Um to let them feel like they matter. Appreciate them out loud. Say the thing. Don't just thank people for doing good deeds. Thank them for being the kind of person who does that. >> So, you know, we all need to be connected to our impact. And life is so busy now. >> Um often our efforts go unnoticed. Nobody closes the loop. Nobody gives thank yous in a way that feeds mattering. Instead of thanking somebody for bringing over a pot of soup when you're when you're sick, you and you could say to them, "Thank you for being the kind of neighbor who somehow anticipates what I need even before I do. You are so caring and kind. How lucky I am to have you in my life." Connect people. Uh let them know that they make a difference in your life. So there there's a saying in business that I mention fairly often on this channel which is if it doesn't get measured, it doesn't get moved, >> right? And you're you're basically saying the human equivalent of that, right? Which is, you know, if we can't see its impact, then it doesn't matter, right? Um or at least it doesn't ma we don't realize that we're mattering. Let's put it that way. We might be, but we just don't have the the feedback, right? So putting in these feedback loops that tell us if we're being successful at our efforts is critically important and I get in the workplace how that you know sort of easy to imagine systems like the the fire guy put in. Um so that could be a potential best practice you know for for companies going forward. you know, hey, if you want to get if you want your employees to feel motivated and lean into their jobs, make sure you put in these systems that they can see that their work is actually having the right the right impact a little bit harder and squishier, you know, at the home and in communities. And you gave a couple good examples, but you're kind of making me think maybe there needs to be like a workbook companion to this um that gives people ways to kind of score the the squishier, more human stuff on it because it's just as important, right? You know, it's kind of like my my mention of the Gotman emotional bank account. It's a great framework, but it's not like couples have a literal bank account they're dropping coins in, right? Um, but whatever it is, you know, whether it's it's you have a weekly sit down with your family and you just reflect back, hey, these are the things I I noticed you did this week that really made me feel good or whatever, right? But just uh my next question for you is going to kind of be how do we build these these cultures of mattering in all the places that matter? your home, your community, your your your your workplace, whatever. Um, might you do a workbook or do do you already have some of these things already fleshed out? >> So, so in the book I I get pretty granular. Um, but yes, I I certainly uh am thinking about a workbook companion. Um, the, you know, there are simple mattering happens in small moments. It's not. Yes, you feel it at a retirement party or a milestone birthday when people are giving you toasts, but we need to matter in the everyday. We need those reminders. We need to be connected to our impact. So, here's one small thing you could do. If you're after you're listening to this podcast, send a text to someone in your life and say, "If it wasn't for you, dot dot dot, I wouldn't have had the courage to go on that job interview, thank you for believing in me even before I believed in myself." um if it wasn't for you uh you know we wouldn't have taken that amazing guys trip. You are the glue that keeps us together. Thank you for all your efforts there. Um if it weren't for you, our department wouldn't be as close-knit and supportive and helpful to each other. You you you model this type of behavior and it's contagious to everyone in the department. So there are ways that we can express uh how we matter to each other in small one sentences. There's a there I went um I was giving a keynote once and uh it was at an educational conference and a teacher was getting an award, national award, lovely but what made him tear up was that his colleagues presented him with a gigantic jar of M&M's. Um he that is his favorite snack and they said now you could have all the M&M's you would ever want for your three o'clock snack. He felt seen and known. Mattering is in the details. It is sending the signal that you your efforts you and your preferences are worth remembering and it's just in those small little moments. So this is, you know, food for the soul for the individual. Um it's food for the soul for the soci for society if we have enough individuals that become that matter more, right? Um what's interesting listening to you talk I I there two names that pop into my head. Um one is Makaveli and the other is Maya Angelou. Um, and uh, where I'm going with this is is there there's kind of all sorts of good reasons to do this, right? So, um, I if if if if you just want to um uh, you know, if if you want to feel better about yourself, obviously engaging in this is going to make you feel like you matter more and you're going to feel better, but it's also going to make people you're going to matter more to them. They're going to care more about you. I mean, if you just want to put on your Makia Valley hat for a moment here, you know, it's like you're going to advance your own station here by advancing others. Um, and I don't encourage people to look at it like this, but I'm like, hey, if if you want, you know, if if you're just a real, you know, I guess even the narcissist should care about this is sort of what I'm saying. Um, and then with Maya Maya Angelou, um, she had that that famous quote, and I'm probably going to butcher it here, but it's people aren't going to remember what you said or what you did. They're going to remember how you made them feel, right? And that's a lot of what you're talking about here. And that is sort of a you know if you if you care about the imprint that your life is going to leave um then kind of all these things that you're talking about here in mattering is the path to do that right because at the end of the day what you're doing here is you're really you're building up I hate to say it this way but like like a brand right that when people think of you what are the emotions and the associations that come along with it >> your legacy um Just as important as it is to lead with mattering, uh it's just as important to watch the things that you do sometimes even inadvertently that can make people feel like they don't matter. Incivility, rudeness, being short with someone, not making eye contact, uh never remembering somebody's name or if you have met them before. I mean, one woman I interviewed, I I interviewed so many people. One woman said, "When she really feels like she doesn't matter is when she's constantly introduced to this group of people who pretend like they have never met her before." That is what researchers would call anti-mattering. So, just as important as it is to lead with mattering, we also need to be mindful of the signals we are sending that maybe make people feel like they don't matter. >> Interesting. Yeah. And then that hit me only because there's there sometimes we'll go to a social event where I see people that I don't see very often and I'm like leaning hard on my wife like, "Oh god, what's their name and when did I see them last?" >> And of course, you don't want to give that impression to these people. You want to let them know that that they, you know, you care about them. >> Um, all right. So, yes. So, so not only focus on matter mattering, but but but try to really avoid the anti-atter part of the equation. Um let me just ask you quickly about um the value of this for younger generations. So I presume the sooner in life you kind of crack this code um you're the benefits are going to compound, right? So this is something that that you know if you're a younger listener here, you know, if you're a Gen Zer listening to this, like take really good notes because your life will likely be far richer the sooner you adopt this stuff. Um, but probably in terms of viewers here, Jennifer, we have a lot more people that that have children, um, either still in the home or or they're, you know, they've got kids that are 20 or 30 or whatnot. Um, how can they help the younger generations learn about this? >> Yeah. So, um I just uh uh wrote co-authored a white paper with the Harvard Center on the Developing Child about how mattering starts at the earliest of days in infancy. Uh making eye contact, responding to a cry, all of these are signals that they are valued. As children grow up, um they they feel valued when parents love them unconditionally. uh when they you know there's something called conditional regard which is when parents can be inadvertently warmer and kinder to a child when they perform better whether they when they behave better and I understand that of course but we have to be really clear with our kids that we love them no matter what despite their behavior. We might not agree with the behavior but we should be clear about separating the deed from the doer. Um, another way is prioritizing affection with our kids. Affection. Scott Galloway and I were having a conversation on his podcast and he was saying that affection is the difference between hoping your your parent loves you and knowing they do. >> So, warmth, affection. I say in in my book, Never Enough, which is about young people in achievement culture, greet your kids once a day the way the family dog greets you with just total joy. Our kids don't often get to see the delight we feel from being their parents. We're so busy and consumed getting through our to-do list. So, at least once a day, let them see the delight you get. >> Um, and as they grow up, relying on them, you know, family is the first introduction to society for a child. So giving them meaningful responsibilities, don't call them chores, but ways that our children can really add value to the family. That is how they learn how to matter in our small social unit and it's how we prime young people to be contributing members of society. >> All right, I love that especially that last part, but that last part I think is really important. So here's here's a question around this that I think a lot of parents find challenging and yes we should love our kids unconditionally and you know meet them greet them like the family dog at least once a day and I love that by the way. Um but um you know we we I I think we can contribute you know a meaningful percentage of some of the the challenges and issues that that the younger gen generations have today with helicopter parenting, enabling parenting, bulldozer parenting, you know, whatever whatever you want to call it. Um and part of becoming a fully actualized human being is learning how to overcome adversity, right? learning how to face a challenge, how to fail, how to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, right? So, as a parent, part of being a caring parent in many ways is to push the kids out in the world, let them fend for themselves, not step in to to helicopter or bulldoze when it starts to get tough. How can you h how can you help bridge those two of like you know helping your kids matter but but in some ways by not doing things for them? >> Well, our kids need the social proof that they matter out in the world. So yes, as parents, we are the primary givers of a mattering mindset and these beliefs, but beyond the family, school, relationships with teachers, relationships with peers and the wider community, those are other ways that our kids can develop a sense of mattering and they are important. Um, and so what I would say to parents is uh to to really think about uh letting your kids be exposed to other areas where they can add value and feel valued and also recover. When you give your children an unconditional sense of mattering, setbacks and failures do not feel like an indictment of their worth. >> Mhm. >> They will be able to recover from them. When a parent's love is felt as conditional, the stakes feel much higher both for the parent and for the child. So I would say there's no um mattering and giving your kids freedom to explore and fail and iterate in their lives are not mutually exclusive. If anything, mattering is a pathway to success and achievement because when you believe it, you are willing. When you know you matter for who you are at your core, you are willing to reach for high goals. You are willing to risk failures and setbacks because these are not indictments of who you are. I I constantly try to say to my kids, you are not your successes and you are not your failures. >> That is a very countercultural message in today's world. Um, but it's because of that that my kids reach for high goals. They don't always hit them, but they hit some of them. And when they don't, I'm here to remind them of their worth. I'm here to remind them. There's a there's um this little thing that a a mother that I interviewed for never enough did with her high achieving kids. Whenever her kids would would bomb a test that they studied for or would get rejected by friends or wouldn't make a team, she'd reach into her wallet and she'd grab a $20 bill. And she would hold up the bill to her kids and she would say, "How much is this worth?" And they would say, "$20." And she'd say, "Okay, hang on a second." She'd wrinkle it up, dunk it in a glass of water very dramatically, hold up this dirty, wrinkled, soggy bill. And she would say, "What is this worth now?" and they would say $20 and she said like this $20 bill your worth doesn't change whether you've been knocked down, rejected, bomb test, your worth is your worth no matter what. So it is the job of a parent in my mind to convince their child of their worth outside of our capitalistic system because it is only that is that to me is the best gift we could give our children if we want to put them out into the world and give them the tools and the bandwidth and the mattering to spare. I I like that a lot. And this is your in your your twopoint litmus test. Number one is do I have people who know me for who I truly am. That's really what you're talking about here, right? Hey, you know, you took a risk. It didn't work out. What went sideways on you, but I'm here to remind you, you know, of who you are at your core. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, go back at it. >> Exactly. >> All right. Um, well, Jennifer, I I really love this. Um, let me ask you this. Um, two two last concluding questions here. Um, okay. So, uh, America watches this video and says Jennifer's got it. So, everybody votes to make you empress and and we've got to implement the reforms uh that that you say we should we should prioritize most highly. What's near the top of the list? I mean I would I would be looking at policy through the lens of mattering. So I would be making uh mattering a public health priority. What does that mean? It means supporting caregivers. It means um supporting people in neighborhoods who are knitting people together. Uh it means going into workplaces and talking about the importance of mattering. um >> putting in those those reporting >> putting in those practices um you know and um I would reduce the anti-mattering public rhetoric uh that I think is is so damaging. If we can go upstream and we can feed people a sense of mattering they will not have to scream across party lines. They will not have to go in with a gun and shoot up a workplace or a school. >> They will know that they matter. They will not have to prove it in those negative ways. So, I would make mattering a public health priority and I would use it as a lens. Um, you know, in any policy, are there people that are going to be left feeling like they don't matter? What can we do about that? >> Can I toss out an example to get you to react to? Um because uh all that sounds great to me and um I think there really is something there there about um behavioral economist Peter Outwwater says, you know, when people get desperate, they act desperately, right? Um and when somebody feels like they don't matter, and again it's it's it carries that emotional weight we talked about earlier of like it's like a threat of death, right? you have to sort of prove to yourself that you matter and you can you out of desperation you can do that in ways that are actually really highly destructive right the person that goes and cheats a school or whatever right um and look I'm I'm my own personal bias you don't have to share it um you know there's there's a a big debate going on in law enforcement and should we be sending social workers in for certain things than policemen and absolutely there are things that probably police people aren't trained in but at the end of the day violent criminal you probably want a cop who knows how to deal with that than than some poor social worker that that might not be prepared for for might be coming back on that. But that being said, you know, I think if we can get to the if we can catch these things before they get to the point where the person is taking the desperate act, um, you know, we might be able to to dramatically reduce a lot of these these adverse outcomes that we're currently seeing in society. So, what do you think of the idea of like national service? And I don't necessarily mean military service, although that certainly could be part of it, but like hey, you know, for two years of your life when you're young, you're going to be stationed somewhere doing something that is going to matter to the country's interests and you're going to be surrounded by people whom you are you would not normally get to know. You're going to form bonds with them, learn that you have commonalities all these other people. Would this be one of the ideas in your policy set you might think about? >> Absolutely. A volunteer core. I actually had a conversation with uh the former president of Harvard College, Claudine Gay. Um I'm an alum and I was talking to her about, you know, how elite colleges are bragging about the, you know, being the most rejective. And if we have so many young people who are interested in going to these colleges, why don't we have a year program where they travel as a cohort and they solve or they work to solve a a problem in the world and add value in that way and make that part of the college experience and that way we could we could educate way more people um and we could be solving for real world problems and we could be feeding a sense of mattering. So this is something that I have always uh wished for and I don't know that we would do it at a national level although I would love it. Uh I but I do think it's something that colleges um you know could enforce uh and and um you know create these whole new cohorts of people who go out into the world and solve real world problems before coming to campus. So it would hopefully lower the college debt. It would add mattering and value. You would be with your cohort. You would be adding value. I I think it's a win-win. Um she wasn't really interested in my proposal. >> Well, yeah. Um probably because it's, you know, taking money out of the pockets of the institutions that are making a ton of money right now. Um but okay. Um I'm I'm at least glad to hear that that resonates with you because that's something that I've always thought was a was a good idea. Um, all right. Um, is there anything else that's important to this topic of mattering that I just haven't thought to think of to ask you about yet? >> I would just say that, um, you know, simply put, if you're feeling like you don't matter right now, you are literally one action away from mattering again. It could be sending the text to someone that if it wasn't for you. It could be walking out your front door and thanking the mail carrier who always greets you with a smile and say, "You know, the days have been long, but your smile always warms me up. Thank you for being such a positive force in the world." The fastest way to feel like you matter again is to remind someone else why they do. >> Wonderful. Wonderful parting advice. Um, all right. Well, look, for folks that have really enjoyed this discussion, uh, two questions. One, uh, your book, Mattering, um, they can pretty much get that anywhere books are sold. >> Yes. >> Okay. And then secondly, beyond reading your book, if they would like to follow you and your work, where should they go? >> Um, I have a newsletter uh at jenniferbwallis.com. I'm also on Instagram at jenniferhennywallis giving tips on mattering and also on LinkedIn. All right, fantastic. Um, so Jennifer, when I edit this, I'll put up the links there to your newsletter and to your Instagram. Um, the LinkedIn links are usually pretty darn long. So, I'll put all three as well in the description below this video so folks can get there with one click if they want to. Um, this has been uh just a total joy. Uh, thank you so much for doing this. Um, as I said, you know, this whole thing about, you know, mattering, purpose, social connection, etc., health, both mental and physical. Those are really the things that that matter at the end of the day and uh I I'm really appreciative that you give me a chance to go really deep on that today for today's audience. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. And I really wish uh all the best with you and your continued work here. What you're doing is very important. Um so anyways, Jennifer, thank you so much. >> Thanks for helping me spread the word on mattering. >> All right. And everybody else, thanks so much for watching.