Inside Venture Capital – the Hidden Force Powering Innovation
Summary
AI Theme: Guest is highly bullish on AI, noting rapid ecosystem change, frequent product pivots, and escalating spend, likening today to the internet circa 1993.
AI Infrastructure: Focus on companies building the AI layer such as LLM evaluation and data labeling platforms, with opportunities to serve both AI-native and broader tech customers.
Aerospace & Defense: Strong enthusiasm for reusable rockets and high-frequency satellite launch models, citing a portfolio leader and expanding interest in deep-tech aerospace and defense.
Silicon Valley: Praises Silicon Valley as a global magnet for top talent and a core engine of U.S. technological leadership, advocating for supportive policy and celebrating U.S. innovation.
Key Companies: Mentions Meta (META) as an aggressive AI acquirer, Waymo/Alphabet (GOOGL) for autonomous expertise, Nvidia (NVDA) for elite execution standards, and prior exposure to Lyft (LYFT), GitHub (MSFT), and Oculus (META).
Market Dynamics: Notes intense competition for AI talent, multi-billion-dollar acqui-hire activity, and the need for nimble strategy; acknowledges prior cycles in crypto and broader tech.
VC Approach: Emphasizes backing technical founders with decacorn-scale ideas, avoiding early exits, and providing hands-on help with fundraising strategy, hiring, and go-to-market.
Portfolio & Exits: Seed-stage checks of $1–4M across 100+ companies with a generalist mandate tilting toward AI and hard tech; exit paths include partial acquisitions/acqui-hires that can still deliver strong multiples.
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Stansbury Investor Hour. I'm Dan Ferris. I'm the editor of Extreme Value and the Ferris Report, both published by Stanberry Research. >> And I'm Cory McLaclin, editor of the Stanberry Daily Digest. We're here in Las Vegas at our annual conference talking with Adrien Fenty, former DC mayor and managing partner at Mac Ventures. >> Adrien, welcome to the show. >> Thank you so much. >> Yeah, glad to have you. >> Excited to be here. So, uh, just before we hit the record button, um, Adrian and I were talking and I was trying to remember in the few hundred podcasts that we've done since we started doing this, uh, since I started doing it >> seven years ago. >> I don't think we've ever had a venture capitalist on the show. >> Amazing. >> I think you are the I think you are it. You are the first. >> I'm going to try and do well. >> Right. So, of course, as a firm, we're focused more on publicly traded securities. So that sort of explains it, but not really. I mean, you guys are out there. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, it it takes a while, but uh startups become great public companies as you can look at the top of the NASDAQ. >> Exactly. Exactly. This is where it all starts. Now, before we get into, you know, exactly what you do, the portfolio and everything, um, since you're a new guest to our audience, maybe tell them a little bit about I I was particularly interested in what you did with, um, >> Everfly, was that a stone? They were earlier in the in the career. >> Yeah. >> Uh, all right. Maybe maybe >> in the investing career. >> Yeah. Investing career. The political thing. Yeah. That's a whole another thing. >> Yeah. So, uh, you know, I I spent 10 years in politics and, um, and and you know, kind of my greatest you thing that you did wrong can be the greatest thing that you did right and that was that was education. Um, you it wasn't the most popular thing, but a lot of people appreciated it. And uh one sector that appreciated it was education and technology companies because education technology companies usually have really bright innovative founders and engineers who have a great product that can usually like help kids do better in school. But schools are so slow in buying uh they mismanage their money so they don't have money readily available. So, long story short, when I left politics, um, a couple of education technology companies, Everfi and Rosetta Stone hired me to just help them talk to school systems uh, so that their product could be more more widely received. And and that was kind of that was the first step for me in becoming uh, a Silicon Valley venture capitalist because I got the bug. I started working with all different variety of startups. I made my first trip to Silicon Valley. Kind of fell in love with like how excited people were to shake things up. That's kind of my mantra. >> Uh and it just seemed like wow the future was really being painted. This was 2011 2012 >> like and people had no fail no fear of failing more than anything else. That was the one thing that I just felt so excited about. And uh the rest is history. For the last 14 years, I've made so many trips to Silicon Valley. I'm now a resident of Menllo Park. I have a house there. And as you said, I I co-founded a venture capital fund. Uh after I worked for a pretty established one for four years, >> a pretty established one called >> Andrea Norwick, >> slightly established. >> Pretty established one. That's, you know, might be an understatement. >> Yeah. Well, and what was amazing, I I joined September 2012 >> and they were pretty well known then, but >> we had less than 50 people, just six general partners. >> Um, >> that's cool. >> You know, it's it's it's quite just like so many other venture capital firms on San Hill Road. It's quite amazing to see the organizations they built, but more importantly, the founders they back. When I was at Andre and Horovitz, we looked at at very early uh stages of Lyft, GitHub, Oculus, so many other companies that have gone on to not just be unicorns, but but decacorns. Um and uh and and that's just a that's just awesome to believe in a founder, believe in a team before they've actually made it. I I don't I don't think in business there's really anything that could be more rewarding. >> Wow. Yeah, that is pretty cool. In the VC business, you kiss a lot of frogs that get to those few unicorns and decacorns though, don't you? >> Well, yes, but I will say sometimes [laughter] sometimes I find myself saying, I can't believe we just passed on that company because that company is like all the engineers are brilliant. They're, you know, they they're going to do well. We know they're going to do well, but venture capital, like we were saying before we got, it's really kind of a wild wild west in a we can't just invest in companies that we think are going to do well. Like my parents had a running shoe store that's still around for 41 years later. That's obviously a business that's done well, but that's not it's not a venture capital backed business. And so many of the ones we look at, as you say, we have to pass on because even if they do well, they won't become billion dollars or multi-billion dollar companies. So you end up backing these incredible founders who have only the biggest ideas. >> Um, and often whenever a company doesn't work out, it's usually because the idea wasn't big enough. So it's okay if they fail, but just if it works, it's going to be incredible, >> right? So the analog for me here is um exploration mining. Um, you know, I've known plenty of people in uh Toronto and Vancouver and they'll run a portfolio of a hundred names and you know, maybe some significant number of them just will never hit that uh, you know, big deposit that just never quite get there. >> Um, and then of course like you know a handful of absolutely enormous winners. Yeah. >> Advertises all loss and provides sometimes breathtaking return. >> Precisely. >> Sounds like what you do. No, that's exactly what we do. Um and and and you know, it's a rewarding um uh job because it's both an art and a science. >> Yeah. You you can you can you can really kind of derisk it up to a point and up to that point then you really just have to kind of go with your gut, which I love. I I I love kind of going with my gut, especially when it's betting on people. >> Yeah. I've talked to other venture people before and they say like a lot of it's betting on the betting on the people. >> Yeah. >> In addition to I guess if it's a big enough idea that's that goes for you. It it really is betting on people particularly >> in like software because almost invariably whether it's consumer like a you know like a Facebook or whatever or or or enterprise there's going to be some pivots. So you want to invest in a founder that is so amazing that they will figure out like water like what the right what the right path is and then jump over every obstacle. Hardware can actually be a little bit different. Like most of our hardware pitches, still amazing founders, they still have to get over obstacles, but usually with our hardware companies, particularly deep tech, like aerospace and defense, kind of what they say in the pitch is pretty much what they're going to be doing [laughter] five five to 10 years later. They kind of have to stick. So, that one's a little bit more of a science. >> Science. Yeah. That that that they would never hire me. >> What's like the scope of subjects, businesses that you're you're interested in? I mean is it or what are you Yeah. What are you most interested in? >> Yeah. No, I mean I I I try not to go in into any pitch with any like preconceived notion about what vertical I like, what needs to happen to a vertical or anything. I if I if I thought that I would just found the company myself. I I think there are people out there who are born founders who really smart who have ideas. My job as a venture capitalist is to find those those people. Um what I one of the things that that that Andre Hor teaches anybody who works there is you really have to invest in technical founders and that is because usually the problem is so difficult that you have to be technical to solve it. Two to build a defensible mode it helps also to have you know a great engineering product and three to scale fast. To scale fast you really need something that is that that is a a technical engineering uh challenge. That being said, just to name a few of the things that we've invested in over the years, certainly, you know, obvious things like health tech and fintech and that includes blockchain and cryptocurrencies, but quantum computing. Um, the last 18 months have been [snorts] for at least for me a majority of the deals have been AI and machine learning. >> Um, but we took an early interest on um on aerospace, aerospace and defense and uh and kind of deep tech. our our most valuable company in our portfolio right now is an aerospace company uh out of Seattle uh called Stoke. And I mean just quite frankly like you know I worked in government. I worked in Washington DC. I'm a fan of of of aerospace but we didn't really know anything about aerospace. We were introduced to this team who had been at Blue Origin uh under Jeff Bezos and they had this idea that they were going to build a company with reusable rockets, full reusability, both first and second stages that um could go up into orbit taking satellites on a daily basis, maybe even a couple times a day. And um and so remember what we said earlier that you have to have a really big idea. Well, that's a really big idea because if you're taking satellites up to space, not only like are you kind of changing the future of the world, but you're also probably going to make a really um big lucrative business out of it. And um and so like we invested in them like 2020, actually the first company when the pandemic hit that we invested in. Uh and like now now they they just raised $500 million in their latest round and are doing doing very well. Um, and so you become an expert over time and now we've had now we've got lots of aerospace and defense investments. Um, because we we were successful with that first one. >> So you don't write $500 million checks though, right? >> Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Let's that's I just want to make that [laughter] clear. >> Yeah. >> Um, this the the 500 million round. Did you guys participate in that or >> No, we So these are great great questions. So we participated in the first three rounds. So that would have been like seed A and B. I think that I don't know that maybe got us to that probably got us to nine figures. Um but no, these are much bigger funds. Um the the latest one was actually Thomas Tol's fund. Uh he's really uh I think he's got a billion dollar fund. Yeah. So, and there there's a number of people in it, but uh yeah, that's what happens in venture capital. You you participate as long as you can, as long as it makes sense. But we really don't write checks. I think our biggest check is about $4 million. And we normally write a check between one and three. Um going forward maybe we'll raise bigger funds and and write bigger checks, but right now we're we're we're pretty much just seedstage investors. >> And how many names are you in right now? >> How many portfolios portfolio companies? >> Over 100 by now because we're on our third fund. Uh each fund averages about $150 million >> and we uh so yeah, we're over a hundred companies now. Yeah, >> that's what it takes, huh? >> Yeah. I mean, and it's funny, you know, we've been around since early, like, you know, early 2019 for this fund. I started investing on my own in 2017, but look at how many cycles we've seen, you know, I mean, we've seen San Francisco go from being way up to way down. Now, it's way back up again with with AI and and and lots of other stuff. You know, we've seen cryptocurrency go I mean, it was probably it's been $5,000 since we have our fund and now it's gotten up to 125. You know what I mean? Cool. >> Yeah. That's amazing. >> So, let's do this. We we Okay, so we've seen we're talking about getting into the fund, right? The the size checks you write, the kind of companies you look for. Um, and then we'll talk about exits later. What about when it's a portfolio company of your firm? What What do you What do you do? Are you you write a check and say, "Good luck." >> No. [laughter] I mean, like I mean, I'm going to be in New York Wednesday and like I'm I'm I'm arranging meetings with all of our New York-based portfolio companies. Mhm. >> And so that I can touch base with them, maybe do a walk with them, have coffee with them. And and in those and then we have conversations every month, every quarter with them. And in those conversations, what you're looking to do is you're looking to figure out how you can be helpful. And sometimes you already know and you're ongoing introducing them to potential customers or people who can work uh at their company. A lot of times, like we did a catch up with a portfolio company that's raising their their their next round this morning. We were just we're looking over their data room, you know, because we're like family. So you they don't have a whole big team that they can show their data room or other things to. So we're looking over it to say, "Hey, change this, change this. This was great." Give them advice. A lot of giving advice, a lot of being a sounding board, and then key introductions to different parts of their of their go to market as needed. >> The sounding board function is interesting to me. I can just, you know, you've got a lot of young people probably with huge ideas and lots of energy and intelligence and skills. And >> I mean, with a 100 portfolio companies, I mean, there has to be some probability that you're going to be the sounding board for some of the worst ideas you ever heard. Like, do you ever panic? Do you ever Well, you just write a $3 million check and then somebody says, "Hey, what do you think of this?" And you say, "Oh my goodness." I mean, in other words, what I what I'm getting at in a in a comical way there is um >> h how interactive is that? Do you do you push back and say no, you're not doing that or would it be h let's hear, you know, how would that conversation go if you heard something you thought was a troubling direction? Let's say just hypothetically, >> we would very rarely do that particularly on things that are really core to the founders's knowledge base, whether that's usually the engineering. >> Um, but sometimes they're earned secret. You know, they say in in venture capital, they need to have an earned secret. So >> again, you know, I I I'll use the aerospace example. So, so someone who's worked at Blue Origin for, you know, almost 10 years, >> it would be silly for me to say, you know, don't use, you know, this type of thing. That wouldn't make any sense. But where we where we can be very helpful is like on on strategy, particularly fundraising strategy, because >> that is something that venture capital sees all the time. We see, you know, so we've got much more much better pattern recognition than them. So, we can say like, okay, no, don't do that. like don't just, you know, reach out to one potential investor. Reach out to 10, you know what I mean? And and and and you want you want to be talking to different people who can be interesting to you, >> uh, and be helpful to you, >> right? >> Um, but yeah, but the sounding board thing is is really like I was telling you, like my my parents had a small business, which my brother now owns, too. It's it's a franchise and it's really my dad was I think he was 44 years old when he started the business and my mom was 40 you know I mean and so they're seasoned and and they've had lots they've had a long professional life even then in their season they had they made a lot of mistakes and it was great for them to be able to go and talk to the franchise other pe other people's stores and just say hey what do you think of this what do you think of this mistake and they very frequently would tell them you better do this right away or you know something bad's going to happen like over in inventory stuff. So in some ways I kind of see venture capitalist a little bit we have that kind of franchise e role where we're you know we're kind of helping all the stores within the franchise by giving them different advice for what they need in different times. >> Right. And they're and you are hiring people who as you say are very technical. So like in the aerospace you're not going to tell them you know how to do aerospace engineering. >> Yeah. But you're going to tell them how to do aerospace business and aerospace fundraising and aerospace maybe even management or whatever it is. >> Yeah. And then when you when you get, you know, I'm 54, you be 54, you've served in all these different capacities in life. I I mean I know a lot of people, a lot of companies. So there just I mean the the most there's so many random ways that I end up being helpful to companies. I you can't even predict it. I can't put it in like our perspectus. when we go out to invest, it just things pop up and we can be helpful and you you just never know and that that's what makes it really fun. >> I'm curious right now in with the AI space. >> Yeah. >> What are you what are you what are the conversations like with founders there? What are the >> I mean because that's new for everybody, right? Even if you're technical in it. >> Yeah. >> Um what what are the conversations like there and what's the actual like we're at the point now where like okay what's the actual value? >> Yeah. I mean it's so it's it's been amazing because the ecosystem is changing so fast. The companies that our companies are doing business with are changing so fast. The amount of money being spent is changing so fast. So most of them as we kind of said earlier are pivoting. Um but not like pivoting like they're they were doing this and they're doing that. more like they were they they were doing this and then they found okay wow I didn't know that was a potential um way that I could u be a part of the ecosystem I'm going to add that as well and then I'm going to add that and they just become bigger and better stronger and it's probably happening every 3 months for every one of our AI investments >> so they're finding their way >> they're finding their way because that's a great way to say >> new to everybody >> and it's changing so much y >> yeah uh so most of the AI companies we invest in are they they they're kind of helping to build the AI layer, if you will. They >> they they either serve other AI companies or they serve other technology companies that are using AI. Um and you know >> like what's an example of one just Sure. >> So I'll tell you about a company like called Koval. So this is a woman who worked at Whimo, the the famous self-driving company that that Google owns. uh she she has created a um a software platform to help other companies uh review their LLM to to look at their to evaluate their LLM to make sure that it's as accurate as possible. So you know if I don't want to you know give any examples but there's huge numbers of them open anthropics etc etc uh but and there's a lot more so that's what her company does and then we have other companies that help to do the data labeling uh for really big AI infrastructure companies and in in every aspect of AI right now there's a potential in many not every but in many there's an opportunity to build a really big business um so hopefully a lot of these will be really big businesses but it's just exciting to be on the frontier of building the future. I I just find it so fascinating and and I feel very lucky um you know to be working in Silicon Valley in this ecosystem at this point in time. It's really a a business and economic revolution. >> It really is. It's like uh it's like the internet but you know it's not 1999 or 2000. It's like 1993 or something, you know. It's >> you know, sort of. >> I think you're right. >> But now, I mean, in Silicon Valley still is a very like small place. Like, it's still pretty niche, but a lot bigger than it was in 1993. A lot more resources available, a lot more people who are excited, maybe even to the point where there's over excitement, >> if you will. But I I'll take that any day. >> When you think about your whole portfolio, you say you have three funds now. 100 100 portfolio companies more than 100. >> Yeah. >> Um is there uh an attempt to sort of um to to to weight it you know so it's not too much in one industry and and uh you know make sure you sort of are you diversified in the traditional kind of way that we tend to think of a portfolio of stocks. Let's just say >> well we consider ourselves generalists. So that means that we should be looking at whatever the best opportunities that come through our network. Um but like I said there there tends to be right now if you all the best engineers or not all but a majority a lot of the best engineers are working on AI because it's just it's just so exciting and there's so much possibility opportunity. You know, a few years ago, the same would have been true with cryptocurrency. And maybe in a few years, that'll be true of quantum computing. >> Uh I do have one uh one of my partners, there's three general partners who founded the fund who definitely >> specializes more in in hard tech, which which can be software, but it's manufacturing, robotics, aerospace, and defense, these types of things. He likes it a little bit more scientific as we talked about earlier where these are, you know, what what they say they're going to do is pretty much what they're going to be doing in 5 to 10 years. >> What do you like? would be >> honestly I I really just want to be blown away by uh a founder and and I tend to fall in love with a a founder being so precient about the future and having the ability to execute >> uh on it that if they come in talking about you know something that I hadn't even been thinking about before but their intelligence, passion, energy and aptitude Dude, that wins me over every single time. And um honestly, it's kind of similar to when I was my only real big management job when I was when I was mayor. Um you know, I I got really excited and whatever agency someone who was fantastic was talking to me about. So, you know, I mean, if they were talking about street paving, but you know, we were going to do it in a in a different way or bike lanes or, you know, or certainly park parks. we were going to renovate parks and recreation buildings, whatever it was, policing, you know, I mean, but the chief was coming in saying, "We're hiring these new detectives and we're going to we're going to reduce our close cases and and I I just got so excited about it because you just like to be around people, as I said in my speech, if someone's amazing, it's just so great to be around them." >> Silicon Valley is probably a little more fun than politics, right? And and lucrative. >> Um, both are fun. And I mean that uh it's so serious. Um yeah, I mean I really I really enjoy politics. I uh I'm a political junkie. I I find it fascinating and I and I do feel that the connection between paying taxes and getting some results out of it from elected officials uh that we need to tighten that connection because it doesn't it doesn't seem to the accountability or the elasticity seem to be off. >> Yeah, there's a lot of slack in that connection. I think we need to tighten that way up. >> But but uh so I so I've always liked that and I and I and I've always obviously loved Washington DC where I got to serve in politics, but I I feel very lucky to have found another profession that I think is is just as interesting and and and really super important like and and and it's future-based. And another thing we don't talk enough about I think in terms of Silicon Valley and you can mean you can mean mean that to mean the greater ecosystem >> is how people come from all over the world to be there. That's just amazing to me like in our country in the United States of America in this year >> we have become so good at this particular thing building the future through technology that people from Asia and Africa and Europe and South America like if they can pick one place they want to do it they come to our country and they come to this one little narrow place and I I happen to be lucky enough to work there so I do find that is super exciting. It it it must be. >> Yeah, >> it must be. I mean, it's just it's the center of that universe, right? >> It's the the the force of gravity. It must you must it must feel electric to walk around Silicon Valley every day at this time. >> I tell you, I when I first moved there, I got to be honest with you. Yeah. I mean, there there's brilliant people in politics, road scholars, you know, but when I I remember thinking to myself, wow, I didn't know human beings were this smart. >> Yeah. >> And it's and it's a very it's a different type of sport. is very technical, you know what I mean? Um, >> and then they get really good at building companies, too. >> Uh, and the venture capitalists help them. So, it's it it is fun and and and it's exciting. >> Let's talk about exits. What does a typical exit look like for your friend if there is a typical one? >> There almost is no typical one. But, okay. you. So, one thing we were taught like at Andre early on was you you don't want to encourage early exits. Like you don't want to be that venture capitalist who is encouraging your company to sell. And you don't even want to invest in a this was what this is one of the first things I learned. You don't want to invest in companies if someone's coming in to pitch you and part of their pitch is I think I can exit this company really soon. >> And that that is not intuitive. I would have thought that good business principles are okay, that's great. They're going to tell you how they're going to make money. No, the Silicon Valley way, which was, you know, made even better at the firm I worked for, was you want them to, you want that founder to stay with the company all the way through going public. >> Now, in the truth of the matter is that they don't always do that. if they're, you know, if they're really good, someone tries to acquire them and then just like the Godfather, if they make them an offer, they can't refuse and then they're gonna sell. And you know, that that happens. It's happened very interestingly in some of these aqua hires with some of the AI companies in the last 6 months. >> Um, but you just explained that because you mentioned that during the speech too that that those hires. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, Meta in particularly uh hired Aquire. So they they didn't actually buy the whole company. They acquired part of it and they acquired certain founders from the company. >> And so it's kind of it's kind of like half acquisition half aqua hire. >> Um >> it's but it shows you one kind of how hot the market is. to that the legacy players like like a meta are not relaxing that they very much don't want these younger companies to go up and be bigger than them and that they don't feel like they can compete with their peers if they don't hire some of the best and brightest. Um, so that's kind of what I meant. >> Okay, thanks. >> Yeah, >> aqua I've never heard that term, but >> I know I hadn't heard either, but makes a lot of sense. >> Maybe that's why I'm not Maybe that's why I'm not in Silicon Valley. >> Well, usually an aqua hire, if you if you think about it, it's not really like a great outcome. It's usually like you get hired just for the hiring of the people, but the but in in some of these cases recently, it's been for many billions of dollars. Yeah. So, and and all the investors come up who invested in the companies very early on uh have done very well. >> Yeah. That hit me as almost like free agency in sports when uh you're signing a player for >> Yeah. Exactly. >> 50 million or whatever it was. >> Yeah. No, it's it's become like that. I haven't, you know, I don't have all the facts and figures, but there's definitely been many reports of kind of really talented AI engineers getting recruited by big firms for millions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> Like in sports. So I this is actually the more you more you talk about this the more it fascinates me because you're telling me that for example let's say there's you know two or three founders or something and someone like Meta comes along and you know what if they only want one of them you know that's got to be an awkward outcome does it no like who >> so the left behind >> but but I think what's what's ended up happening is they >> they do that Godfather offer. They make an offer that everybody can't refuse. So they may take one of the founders into the company and that founder is going to work with Meta and do but the other ones >> they buy them out. >> Yeah. And that's one of the things you look back at the all the >> and they're buying the investors out too. So the investors you the investor would have wanted the company to go on for a long time but I mean they're sitting on probably something equivalent to >> 20 30 50x their investment. That that makes as you know venture capitalists have investors also so that makes our investors happy. >> Yeah. I mean I I guess if my feelings were hurt and I had tens of millions of dollars in my pocket it would it would probably just about level out. [laughter] Probably just about be okay. >> Yeah. >> You know I see. So it so I just want to be clear on this because it's nothing we've ever discussed on on this show. effectively. It sounds like you're telling that the whole company is effectively acquired, >> but you know, >> it's different every time and a lot of this has to do with I think regulation. I mean, mergers and acquisitions are regulated. So, it >> you know, if you just acquire part of the company, maybe it's not so regul. I'm not an M&A lawyer. I'm a lawyer but not an M&A lawyer. So, it's probably as far as I can help you understand it. But, it's very obvious that that's that's a part of it as well. I see. >> [snorts] >> you know, and good. If if they can figure out a way to make everybody happy and the companies get better and stronger and the ecosystem gets stronger and technology gets stronger, it does seem like a win-win. >> I'm I'm going to try to ask a question without using a certain word and I'll tell you what the word is. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um how how frenzied is this race in AI? like are you you know are you guys working you know 60 70 hours a week or you know 7 days a week because you have got to get the best before somebody else gets there or and the word I'm trying not to use is bubble because that word gets thrown around with AI all the time but I don't want to use it because it's you know it's just a whole there there's baggage with it that I don't want to get into. Well, certainly there's no company that is even in AI that's even moderately successful and growing moderately fast where the founders are and and the employees are not working 70 hours a week. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean I >> but what I'm I'm thinking about you as a firm though like is there a real sense that you better you know get your ass out there because you know all the other VCs are looking for that you know that unicorn that AI unicorn too. >> Yes. But there's a difference in in an operator and a venture capitalist. It's almost like the difference when I was in politics and an executive and a legislator, right? >> Like the only way to make your company successful is just you have to work. You have to work 80 80 90 hours a week. It it's that's the minimum you have to do. You have to work smart. You have to hire great people. You have to have good ideas, but you're not going to not to to not work great hours. Venture capital, like I was saying before, is a little bit more of an art. Like sometimes, and this has happened before, like someone will shoot me a text message that says, "Hey, there's this incredible founder who you have to meet um and that company that and I mean that's how I met the aerospace company. Someone sent me a text message and I just have to be like I and the way I you really just have to be top of mind with a lot of people who know great companies." But the way to be top of mind with a lot of people who know great companies, there's a lot of different ways to do it. Like when again when I'm in New York this week, I'm going to go talk to a lot of people and every one of them when I leave there, they may meet somebody and they'll say, "Hey, I was just with my friend with friend Adrian. He's a great investor. You should meet them." And it's a that's a way it's not just it's not just the amount of hours you put in. Although that's important it and because you have to read and know what you're doing, but it's also about making sure you're top of mind with really great entrepreneurs who know other great entrepreneurs and that they think highly of you too and that they will forward forward them to you if they if they hear about a great company. >> I just realized my question is just so typical of me as a as a typical sort of public markets guy, you know? I just like where's where's the sentiment indicator? You know, >> I want to hear give me the sentiment indicator. Well, yeah. I was just going to say it's different in the public like we're not you're you're really betting on on the people and the and the promise of it too more so than earnings or I mean whatever it may be >> and and if it's like any other kind of relationship type of thing like you know I mean all of us have been in like rel like you never know where you're going to meet your next great best friend right you might run into them like at a sports game or or someone who you're romantically involved with like in a funny way like that's kind of how company is like if you take 10 of my best companies, I bet I met all 10 of them >> in very different ways. I certainly met all 10 of them from very different people. Yeah. >> So, it's hard to make that into a science. And if you try too hard, you're going to end up missing out on on good deals. So, you just kind have to be very nimble and on your toes just kind of >> Just reminds me of stories I've I've heard of I bankers, too. You know, always on the phone, always making connections day after day after day. It's also like sports I think in a way like if I remember like hearing about like these famous recruiters you know what I mean like famous college basketball like a Rick Patino you know what I mean like he would you know >> who knows like he's you just got to go you're never not going to know where your great next great prospect is going to come from. So you've got to work really hard and be on your toes but you also got to be nimble enough to fly to New York or fly to Las Vegas wherever that next great talent is going to come from. >> Yeah. And now sports is turning into venture the venture world too with paying college players and >> Oh that's amazing. >> Uh when recruiting and all that I mean so >> um you were DC's youngest mayor and I think you said that you were the America's youngest mayor for a year. >> Young youngest mayor of in a big city for one year and then the mayor of Pittsburgh died and Pete Ravensfall became the mayor and he was like way younger than me. >> Okay. [laughter] >> But now obviously there's so much going on in American cities. >> Yeah. Now for all I could name off a list of five ten huge national topics. Yeah. >> What is your view on like what >> is the biggest challenges that our cities face and what needs to be done to just >> kind of I don't even know you to fix it or build build it or develop develop the cities. >> Fix it. Yeah. Okay. So here's the dialogue that I do like and I want to attribute it to anybody. Um, I do like dialogue that says that the cities aren't doing enough, that the cities aren't good enough. I do like that dialogue cuz they're not. >> Mhm. >> Right. And the bar for how good a city is is way too low. Like people I hate I really don't like when people just think there's always going to be crime in a city or the schools in a city are always going to be or there's always going to be trash or there's always going to be homelessness. And to be honest with you, there aren't many cities where the people who run those cities don't have that embedded into their mind and they and and they've had it for a while. And so a dialogue that says the cities are not good enough, I associate myself with that dialogue. Now, I think that what you do is you hire the the best person in your city to come in and make really tough decisions and put that city on a rocket and everyone else supports that person and and and and gets out of the way, >> you know, and and to to be honest with you, I think that's how you start to bring crime around in increase the performance of schools, you you know, have services for people who need them, everything that's important in a city. And and that's how you get great restaurants and great theaters and great hotels and the streets are clean. I I I don't think that these are too lofty of a goals. And I do think that the bar is too low. >> Bar is too low. >> And in some places, the bar is >> so low. Why is the bar? >> It sounds like there's And there's an embedded mentality of the low bar. It sounds like >> Yeah, there is an embedded mentality. I'll talk about San Francisco. I have no problem with that. I think Daniel Luri is doing a terrific job and he's only been in office for less than a year and so I think great I think he's got their city on the right trajectory and if he goes for another couple terms and someone really great comes in behind him I think San Francisco is going to be an incredible city but for the better part of the the whole time I have lived in Menlo Park not San Francisco but but have gone there to work >> the management of the city has been really really bad like they haven't hired the best people they haven't used technology in innovation. Well, there's a there's something called the broken windows theory and it it became popular around Juliana and it means you in New York if something is not working, you can't let it fester. You have to get at it right away. So, if there's homelessness on the street or people on the street or trash on the street or tents or anything, you have to get it up immediately. >> Yeah. >> Because if you don't, then some other problem will come in right behind it. And to be honest with you, if you talk to any great like Silicon Valley CEO, tech tech person, they will tell you that's how they run their company. You know, I mean, take a Jensen Wang who runs Nvidia. That's absolutely how he runs his company. That's how cities should be run. And I think we I don't there's so many reasons why we have lowered our standards, but a lot of it is bec honestly because we're letting politicians off too easy and and they're letting themselves off too easy. And so when people hold politicians more accountable, I'm the first in line to to be excited about it. >> Yeah. I guess and that speaks to what you were talking about during your speech recounting your DC days with uh you know trying to reform the the school system and >> and then that ultimately being held against you by the teachers union, >> which is fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There should be no person that's like >> there should be no person who has higher standards than the city than the person who has elected the mayor. There should be no person who has higher standards for that govern for that govern that state than the governor. And there should be no excuses and the performance should be to beat everybody else not only in the country but in the world. You should have better performance anywhere else in the world. And if you're not up to that job then you should not take the job or run for it. And also we shouldn't elect those people. Yeah. >> So, I have no I have I'm really really no patience for politicians who mail it in. >> Do I dare broach the topic of New York City with you? >> Gladly. >> Okay. >> We all know what's happening there and uh you know this election is >> frankly scaring the daylights out of a lot of people. >> Um how do you feel about it? >> I don't know either of the people running. I I you know what I mean? I don't know them personally. May maybe I've met Andrew Cuomo before. Here's the thing. The only way New York is going to continue to be as great a city as I think Giuliani and Bloomberg made it is for great management. Those were two really great managers. You may not like what they do. I never lived in New York. So people, but without any question, they they were hands-on. They had high standards. They held people accountable and they got things done. So since then, at least to date, there hasn't been there hasn't been that high level of management. So the next mayor of New York has to have that high level of management. It doesn't appear right now that either the people running are the kind of manager that Giuliani and Bloomberg were, but I know that most people in New York hope that they will be. Maybe they'll just, you know, completely be different when they get elected than they aren't. Stranger things have happened. But you will not make the city great if you are not a great manager. All this talk about like >> like ideas ideology and and and politics that's not what makes a city run great. Make what makes a city run great is great management. And the first rule of great management is hiring amazing people. If you look at the people who were I don't know the Julian administration well a little bit before my time but I know the Bloomberg administration. the people who he hired were just as good, if not better, than people you would find in similar private sector roles. So, whoever the next mayor is of New York or any other city, they have to come in and hire people who are just as good as the private sector, if not better. And and then that the city will do terrific. That's the only standard we should be thinking about for for these politicians. And then they have to make tough decisions because there will be tough decisions. But without even without hiring great people, it nothing matters >> to hear you talk about it. You talk about, you know, being the mayor of a big city um like it's a real job and that it's not about um ideology and it's not about, you know, wanting to make all the beds public or whatever, you know, Donnie wants to do. Yeah. You know, it it sounds like uh you know, it's like a job and you if you have experience being a very good manager, well, hey, then you're probably more likely to succeed. >> Um so different than the narrative of of politics in America. >> No, I couldn't agree more. >> Nobody's talking like you. >> Most people are most people pander. They pander >> Yeah. >> to get in office and they pander to stay in office. in office. >> The one thing I will say is >> I don't know if you have to be a manager to be a great manager and and I know some people who were great managers who are not great public managers also. >> You just have to do two things. I always talk about Kennedy and how he was adamant about hiring the best and the brightest to come to Washington because and then two you have to be impatient. You have to like you have to measure three times and cut once. You you you have to set the highest standards. What I know about Silicon Valley tech, great tech companies, is that the people who made them great, they set really high bars. >> And so, for instance, like if if we had if someone came in to me and said, >> okay, we're going to rebuild these these three schools in two and a half years. I would just tell them, no, that's not good enough. And it seems like a very simple thing, and it sounds like I'm someone who doesn't know construction. Both things are true. I don't know construction and I don't and and it is a very simple thing but I know that that's too long and so come give me a date that's shorter and I honestly that was half of what I did as mayor. I would just tell them no that's not good enough. You have to do it faster >> and that's and you government would change so much if we had and that's how the private sector is. That's how all these tech CEOs that we read about Elon Musk or I mean they really demand a lot out of their people. You know what's really funny? People really like it. >> My cabinet, when I told that story, my cabinet was really upset to be leaving. I was and I drove them hard. Michelle Ree, who was our school's chancellor, she was one of the toughest managers you could ever imagine. We had a waiting list of 7,000 people who wanted to be teachers in the DC public schools because for the first time, they felt like they would actually be held accountable. >> Yeah. Who wants to go to a job where like it doesn't really matter how good of a job you do? And that's what most governments are. Most people want to go to a job where they people expect them and demand them to do terrific. >> Yeah. No, nobody's demanding uh people in government to be terrific these days. They're they're demanding some they seem to be demanding something quite other. Um but wow, you you've had quite a you've had quite a career. Politics, youngest mayor, venture capital. It's pretty exciting to be Adrien Fenty. >> It's just great to be around great people. I mean, honestly, it's great to be around. When I was in camp camp, my campaigns, I mean, the level the how hard people worked. We would knock on doors when it was like 25 degrees and raining outside and people would show up and these I mean there's there's it's just as amazing investing in these young founders >> because to be honest with you, >> I mean, they're risking it all. You mean I'm not I'm not just talking about like the Stanford kid who drops out, you know, and parents go really get really mad at them and because they feel like they throw their life, although we have a lot of those and they're incredible. But all of them, you know, I mean, I've got, you know, I've got one new founder. She I mean, she actually had a baby while, you know, while we were investing in our company and like I mean, she so she's working like 80 90 hour weeks and she's raising two small kids and her husband and like and she's unflapable. I mean, it's unbelievable what she does. And so, they're they're risking everything to to bet on themselves, and it's just fun to be around them. >> That's super exciting. >> Yeah, >> it really is. So, we're I think we're just about time for our final question. >> Okay. >> Um, it is the same for every guest, no matter what the topic. >> Oh, wow. >> Identical question. Even if sometimes every now and then we've had a non-financial guest over the years, same identical question. And it really is just for our our viewers, our listeners. If you could just leave our listeners with a thought, you know, like a typical the traders that we talk to, they like to say, you know, cut let your winners run and cut your losers short and and it could be anything. A core principle, you know, philosophical. Yeah. Something philosophical. You know, some people they get outside and touch grass. I mean, it could be it could be just about it could be just about anything. >> I'll I'll just connect I'll say something I said before, but I'll I'll connect it in in in my world. Like I'm not you're from Silicon Valley. I'm not a Silicon Valley insider. I'm not from tech. I It's not how I made my first career. I I come to this as some something of a transplant. But it just makes me super proud that Silicon Valley and and all of the associated places, whether it be, you know, some other places where people are building great technological products are here in the United States that we're taking a lead. Like if I could think of one thing that we would want to be the best at out of all the things we do, you know what I mean? Besides education, but one thing it would be that we would be the best in techn technology and innovation. And at least right now in October of 2025, we are the best in that. And I and I think too often we don't we take it for granted. We don't celebrate it enough. And unfortunately, I think this has changed a little bit recently, but un unfortunately over the last 12 years, I have I've been going back and forth between DC and Silicon Valley. Too many Washington politicians um really overly critique um Silicon Valley and make it hard for these business people to do business, a a business that is transforming the world. And I think I'm glad to see that starting to change. And I I hope that that's part of the future that that that politicians and government, particularly those in Washington, will really celebrate this great thing that America is doing uh and and find every way that we can continue to make it grow faster and go as long as possible. >> Well, thanks again for being here, Adrian. It was great to talk with you. >> Yeah, thank you guys. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. >> All right. All right. Well, that's another interview and that's another episode of the Stanberry Investor Hour. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we really truly did. Opinions expressed on this program are solely those of the contributor and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Stanbury Research, its parent company, or affiliates.
Inside Venture Capital – the Hidden Force Powering Innovation
Summary
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Stansbury Investor Hour. I'm Dan Ferris. I'm the editor of Extreme Value and the Ferris Report, both published by Stanberry Research. >> And I'm Cory McLaclin, editor of the Stanberry Daily Digest. We're here in Las Vegas at our annual conference talking with Adrien Fenty, former DC mayor and managing partner at Mac Ventures. >> Adrien, welcome to the show. >> Thank you so much. >> Yeah, glad to have you. >> Excited to be here. So, uh, just before we hit the record button, um, Adrian and I were talking and I was trying to remember in the few hundred podcasts that we've done since we started doing this, uh, since I started doing it >> seven years ago. >> I don't think we've ever had a venture capitalist on the show. >> Amazing. >> I think you are the I think you are it. You are the first. >> I'm going to try and do well. >> Right. So, of course, as a firm, we're focused more on publicly traded securities. So that sort of explains it, but not really. I mean, you guys are out there. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, it it takes a while, but uh startups become great public companies as you can look at the top of the NASDAQ. >> Exactly. Exactly. This is where it all starts. Now, before we get into, you know, exactly what you do, the portfolio and everything, um, since you're a new guest to our audience, maybe tell them a little bit about I I was particularly interested in what you did with, um, >> Everfly, was that a stone? They were earlier in the in the career. >> Yeah. >> Uh, all right. Maybe maybe >> in the investing career. >> Yeah. Investing career. The political thing. Yeah. That's a whole another thing. >> Yeah. So, uh, you know, I I spent 10 years in politics and, um, and and you know, kind of my greatest you thing that you did wrong can be the greatest thing that you did right and that was that was education. Um, you it wasn't the most popular thing, but a lot of people appreciated it. And uh one sector that appreciated it was education and technology companies because education technology companies usually have really bright innovative founders and engineers who have a great product that can usually like help kids do better in school. But schools are so slow in buying uh they mismanage their money so they don't have money readily available. So, long story short, when I left politics, um, a couple of education technology companies, Everfi and Rosetta Stone hired me to just help them talk to school systems uh, so that their product could be more more widely received. And and that was kind of that was the first step for me in becoming uh, a Silicon Valley venture capitalist because I got the bug. I started working with all different variety of startups. I made my first trip to Silicon Valley. Kind of fell in love with like how excited people were to shake things up. That's kind of my mantra. >> Uh and it just seemed like wow the future was really being painted. This was 2011 2012 >> like and people had no fail no fear of failing more than anything else. That was the one thing that I just felt so excited about. And uh the rest is history. For the last 14 years, I've made so many trips to Silicon Valley. I'm now a resident of Menllo Park. I have a house there. And as you said, I I co-founded a venture capital fund. Uh after I worked for a pretty established one for four years, >> a pretty established one called >> Andrea Norwick, >> slightly established. >> Pretty established one. That's, you know, might be an understatement. >> Yeah. Well, and what was amazing, I I joined September 2012 >> and they were pretty well known then, but >> we had less than 50 people, just six general partners. >> Um, >> that's cool. >> You know, it's it's it's quite just like so many other venture capital firms on San Hill Road. It's quite amazing to see the organizations they built, but more importantly, the founders they back. When I was at Andre and Horovitz, we looked at at very early uh stages of Lyft, GitHub, Oculus, so many other companies that have gone on to not just be unicorns, but but decacorns. Um and uh and and that's just a that's just awesome to believe in a founder, believe in a team before they've actually made it. I I don't I don't think in business there's really anything that could be more rewarding. >> Wow. Yeah, that is pretty cool. In the VC business, you kiss a lot of frogs that get to those few unicorns and decacorns though, don't you? >> Well, yes, but I will say sometimes [laughter] sometimes I find myself saying, I can't believe we just passed on that company because that company is like all the engineers are brilliant. They're, you know, they they're going to do well. We know they're going to do well, but venture capital, like we were saying before we got, it's really kind of a wild wild west in a we can't just invest in companies that we think are going to do well. Like my parents had a running shoe store that's still around for 41 years later. That's obviously a business that's done well, but that's not it's not a venture capital backed business. And so many of the ones we look at, as you say, we have to pass on because even if they do well, they won't become billion dollars or multi-billion dollar companies. So you end up backing these incredible founders who have only the biggest ideas. >> Um, and often whenever a company doesn't work out, it's usually because the idea wasn't big enough. So it's okay if they fail, but just if it works, it's going to be incredible, >> right? So the analog for me here is um exploration mining. Um, you know, I've known plenty of people in uh Toronto and Vancouver and they'll run a portfolio of a hundred names and you know, maybe some significant number of them just will never hit that uh, you know, big deposit that just never quite get there. >> Um, and then of course like you know a handful of absolutely enormous winners. Yeah. >> Advertises all loss and provides sometimes breathtaking return. >> Precisely. >> Sounds like what you do. No, that's exactly what we do. Um and and and you know, it's a rewarding um uh job because it's both an art and a science. >> Yeah. You you can you can you can really kind of derisk it up to a point and up to that point then you really just have to kind of go with your gut, which I love. I I I love kind of going with my gut, especially when it's betting on people. >> Yeah. I've talked to other venture people before and they say like a lot of it's betting on the betting on the people. >> Yeah. >> In addition to I guess if it's a big enough idea that's that goes for you. It it really is betting on people particularly >> in like software because almost invariably whether it's consumer like a you know like a Facebook or whatever or or or enterprise there's going to be some pivots. So you want to invest in a founder that is so amazing that they will figure out like water like what the right what the right path is and then jump over every obstacle. Hardware can actually be a little bit different. Like most of our hardware pitches, still amazing founders, they still have to get over obstacles, but usually with our hardware companies, particularly deep tech, like aerospace and defense, kind of what they say in the pitch is pretty much what they're going to be doing [laughter] five five to 10 years later. They kind of have to stick. So, that one's a little bit more of a science. >> Science. Yeah. That that that they would never hire me. >> What's like the scope of subjects, businesses that you're you're interested in? I mean is it or what are you Yeah. What are you most interested in? >> Yeah. No, I mean I I I try not to go in into any pitch with any like preconceived notion about what vertical I like, what needs to happen to a vertical or anything. I if I if I thought that I would just found the company myself. I I think there are people out there who are born founders who really smart who have ideas. My job as a venture capitalist is to find those those people. Um what I one of the things that that that Andre Hor teaches anybody who works there is you really have to invest in technical founders and that is because usually the problem is so difficult that you have to be technical to solve it. Two to build a defensible mode it helps also to have you know a great engineering product and three to scale fast. To scale fast you really need something that is that that is a a technical engineering uh challenge. That being said, just to name a few of the things that we've invested in over the years, certainly, you know, obvious things like health tech and fintech and that includes blockchain and cryptocurrencies, but quantum computing. Um, the last 18 months have been [snorts] for at least for me a majority of the deals have been AI and machine learning. >> Um, but we took an early interest on um on aerospace, aerospace and defense and uh and kind of deep tech. our our most valuable company in our portfolio right now is an aerospace company uh out of Seattle uh called Stoke. And I mean just quite frankly like you know I worked in government. I worked in Washington DC. I'm a fan of of of aerospace but we didn't really know anything about aerospace. We were introduced to this team who had been at Blue Origin uh under Jeff Bezos and they had this idea that they were going to build a company with reusable rockets, full reusability, both first and second stages that um could go up into orbit taking satellites on a daily basis, maybe even a couple times a day. And um and so remember what we said earlier that you have to have a really big idea. Well, that's a really big idea because if you're taking satellites up to space, not only like are you kind of changing the future of the world, but you're also probably going to make a really um big lucrative business out of it. And um and so like we invested in them like 2020, actually the first company when the pandemic hit that we invested in. Uh and like now now they they just raised $500 million in their latest round and are doing doing very well. Um, and so you become an expert over time and now we've had now we've got lots of aerospace and defense investments. Um, because we we were successful with that first one. >> So you don't write $500 million checks though, right? >> Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Let's that's I just want to make that [laughter] clear. >> Yeah. >> Um, this the the 500 million round. Did you guys participate in that or >> No, we So these are great great questions. So we participated in the first three rounds. So that would have been like seed A and B. I think that I don't know that maybe got us to that probably got us to nine figures. Um but no, these are much bigger funds. Um the the latest one was actually Thomas Tol's fund. Uh he's really uh I think he's got a billion dollar fund. Yeah. So, and there there's a number of people in it, but uh yeah, that's what happens in venture capital. You you participate as long as you can, as long as it makes sense. But we really don't write checks. I think our biggest check is about $4 million. And we normally write a check between one and three. Um going forward maybe we'll raise bigger funds and and write bigger checks, but right now we're we're we're pretty much just seedstage investors. >> And how many names are you in right now? >> How many portfolios portfolio companies? >> Over 100 by now because we're on our third fund. Uh each fund averages about $150 million >> and we uh so yeah, we're over a hundred companies now. Yeah, >> that's what it takes, huh? >> Yeah. I mean, and it's funny, you know, we've been around since early, like, you know, early 2019 for this fund. I started investing on my own in 2017, but look at how many cycles we've seen, you know, I mean, we've seen San Francisco go from being way up to way down. Now, it's way back up again with with AI and and and lots of other stuff. You know, we've seen cryptocurrency go I mean, it was probably it's been $5,000 since we have our fund and now it's gotten up to 125. You know what I mean? Cool. >> Yeah. That's amazing. >> So, let's do this. We we Okay, so we've seen we're talking about getting into the fund, right? The the size checks you write, the kind of companies you look for. Um, and then we'll talk about exits later. What about when it's a portfolio company of your firm? What What do you What do you do? Are you you write a check and say, "Good luck." >> No. [laughter] I mean, like I mean, I'm going to be in New York Wednesday and like I'm I'm I'm arranging meetings with all of our New York-based portfolio companies. Mhm. >> And so that I can touch base with them, maybe do a walk with them, have coffee with them. And and in those and then we have conversations every month, every quarter with them. And in those conversations, what you're looking to do is you're looking to figure out how you can be helpful. And sometimes you already know and you're ongoing introducing them to potential customers or people who can work uh at their company. A lot of times, like we did a catch up with a portfolio company that's raising their their their next round this morning. We were just we're looking over their data room, you know, because we're like family. So you they don't have a whole big team that they can show their data room or other things to. So we're looking over it to say, "Hey, change this, change this. This was great." Give them advice. A lot of giving advice, a lot of being a sounding board, and then key introductions to different parts of their of their go to market as needed. >> The sounding board function is interesting to me. I can just, you know, you've got a lot of young people probably with huge ideas and lots of energy and intelligence and skills. And >> I mean, with a 100 portfolio companies, I mean, there has to be some probability that you're going to be the sounding board for some of the worst ideas you ever heard. Like, do you ever panic? Do you ever Well, you just write a $3 million check and then somebody says, "Hey, what do you think of this?" And you say, "Oh my goodness." I mean, in other words, what I what I'm getting at in a in a comical way there is um >> h how interactive is that? Do you do you push back and say no, you're not doing that or would it be h let's hear, you know, how would that conversation go if you heard something you thought was a troubling direction? Let's say just hypothetically, >> we would very rarely do that particularly on things that are really core to the founders's knowledge base, whether that's usually the engineering. >> Um, but sometimes they're earned secret. You know, they say in in venture capital, they need to have an earned secret. So >> again, you know, I I I'll use the aerospace example. So, so someone who's worked at Blue Origin for, you know, almost 10 years, >> it would be silly for me to say, you know, don't use, you know, this type of thing. That wouldn't make any sense. But where we where we can be very helpful is like on on strategy, particularly fundraising strategy, because >> that is something that venture capital sees all the time. We see, you know, so we've got much more much better pattern recognition than them. So, we can say like, okay, no, don't do that. like don't just, you know, reach out to one potential investor. Reach out to 10, you know what I mean? And and and and you want you want to be talking to different people who can be interesting to you, >> uh, and be helpful to you, >> right? >> Um, but yeah, but the sounding board thing is is really like I was telling you, like my my parents had a small business, which my brother now owns, too. It's it's a franchise and it's really my dad was I think he was 44 years old when he started the business and my mom was 40 you know I mean and so they're seasoned and and they've had lots they've had a long professional life even then in their season they had they made a lot of mistakes and it was great for them to be able to go and talk to the franchise other pe other people's stores and just say hey what do you think of this what do you think of this mistake and they very frequently would tell them you better do this right away or you know something bad's going to happen like over in inventory stuff. So in some ways I kind of see venture capitalist a little bit we have that kind of franchise e role where we're you know we're kind of helping all the stores within the franchise by giving them different advice for what they need in different times. >> Right. And they're and you are hiring people who as you say are very technical. So like in the aerospace you're not going to tell them you know how to do aerospace engineering. >> Yeah. But you're going to tell them how to do aerospace business and aerospace fundraising and aerospace maybe even management or whatever it is. >> Yeah. And then when you when you get, you know, I'm 54, you be 54, you've served in all these different capacities in life. I I mean I know a lot of people, a lot of companies. So there just I mean the the most there's so many random ways that I end up being helpful to companies. I you can't even predict it. I can't put it in like our perspectus. when we go out to invest, it just things pop up and we can be helpful and you you just never know and that that's what makes it really fun. >> I'm curious right now in with the AI space. >> Yeah. >> What are you what are you what are the conversations like with founders there? What are the >> I mean because that's new for everybody, right? Even if you're technical in it. >> Yeah. >> Um what what are the conversations like there and what's the actual like we're at the point now where like okay what's the actual value? >> Yeah. I mean it's so it's it's been amazing because the ecosystem is changing so fast. The companies that our companies are doing business with are changing so fast. The amount of money being spent is changing so fast. So most of them as we kind of said earlier are pivoting. Um but not like pivoting like they're they were doing this and they're doing that. more like they were they they were doing this and then they found okay wow I didn't know that was a potential um way that I could u be a part of the ecosystem I'm going to add that as well and then I'm going to add that and they just become bigger and better stronger and it's probably happening every 3 months for every one of our AI investments >> so they're finding their way >> they're finding their way because that's a great way to say >> new to everybody >> and it's changing so much y >> yeah uh so most of the AI companies we invest in are they they they're kind of helping to build the AI layer, if you will. They >> they they either serve other AI companies or they serve other technology companies that are using AI. Um and you know >> like what's an example of one just Sure. >> So I'll tell you about a company like called Koval. So this is a woman who worked at Whimo, the the famous self-driving company that that Google owns. uh she she has created a um a software platform to help other companies uh review their LLM to to look at their to evaluate their LLM to make sure that it's as accurate as possible. So you know if I don't want to you know give any examples but there's huge numbers of them open anthropics etc etc uh but and there's a lot more so that's what her company does and then we have other companies that help to do the data labeling uh for really big AI infrastructure companies and in in every aspect of AI right now there's a potential in many not every but in many there's an opportunity to build a really big business um so hopefully a lot of these will be really big businesses but it's just exciting to be on the frontier of building the future. I I just find it so fascinating and and I feel very lucky um you know to be working in Silicon Valley in this ecosystem at this point in time. It's really a a business and economic revolution. >> It really is. It's like uh it's like the internet but you know it's not 1999 or 2000. It's like 1993 or something, you know. It's >> you know, sort of. >> I think you're right. >> But now, I mean, in Silicon Valley still is a very like small place. Like, it's still pretty niche, but a lot bigger than it was in 1993. A lot more resources available, a lot more people who are excited, maybe even to the point where there's over excitement, >> if you will. But I I'll take that any day. >> When you think about your whole portfolio, you say you have three funds now. 100 100 portfolio companies more than 100. >> Yeah. >> Um is there uh an attempt to sort of um to to to weight it you know so it's not too much in one industry and and uh you know make sure you sort of are you diversified in the traditional kind of way that we tend to think of a portfolio of stocks. Let's just say >> well we consider ourselves generalists. So that means that we should be looking at whatever the best opportunities that come through our network. Um but like I said there there tends to be right now if you all the best engineers or not all but a majority a lot of the best engineers are working on AI because it's just it's just so exciting and there's so much possibility opportunity. You know, a few years ago, the same would have been true with cryptocurrency. And maybe in a few years, that'll be true of quantum computing. >> Uh I do have one uh one of my partners, there's three general partners who founded the fund who definitely >> specializes more in in hard tech, which which can be software, but it's manufacturing, robotics, aerospace, and defense, these types of things. He likes it a little bit more scientific as we talked about earlier where these are, you know, what what they say they're going to do is pretty much what they're going to be doing in 5 to 10 years. >> What do you like? would be >> honestly I I really just want to be blown away by uh a founder and and I tend to fall in love with a a founder being so precient about the future and having the ability to execute >> uh on it that if they come in talking about you know something that I hadn't even been thinking about before but their intelligence, passion, energy and aptitude Dude, that wins me over every single time. And um honestly, it's kind of similar to when I was my only real big management job when I was when I was mayor. Um you know, I I got really excited and whatever agency someone who was fantastic was talking to me about. So, you know, I mean, if they were talking about street paving, but you know, we were going to do it in a in a different way or bike lanes or, you know, or certainly park parks. we were going to renovate parks and recreation buildings, whatever it was, policing, you know, I mean, but the chief was coming in saying, "We're hiring these new detectives and we're going to we're going to reduce our close cases and and I I just got so excited about it because you just like to be around people, as I said in my speech, if someone's amazing, it's just so great to be around them." >> Silicon Valley is probably a little more fun than politics, right? And and lucrative. >> Um, both are fun. And I mean that uh it's so serious. Um yeah, I mean I really I really enjoy politics. I uh I'm a political junkie. I I find it fascinating and I and I do feel that the connection between paying taxes and getting some results out of it from elected officials uh that we need to tighten that connection because it doesn't it doesn't seem to the accountability or the elasticity seem to be off. >> Yeah, there's a lot of slack in that connection. I think we need to tighten that way up. >> But but uh so I so I've always liked that and I and I and I've always obviously loved Washington DC where I got to serve in politics, but I I feel very lucky to have found another profession that I think is is just as interesting and and and really super important like and and and it's future-based. And another thing we don't talk enough about I think in terms of Silicon Valley and you can mean you can mean mean that to mean the greater ecosystem >> is how people come from all over the world to be there. That's just amazing to me like in our country in the United States of America in this year >> we have become so good at this particular thing building the future through technology that people from Asia and Africa and Europe and South America like if they can pick one place they want to do it they come to our country and they come to this one little narrow place and I I happen to be lucky enough to work there so I do find that is super exciting. It it it must be. >> Yeah, >> it must be. I mean, it's just it's the center of that universe, right? >> It's the the the force of gravity. It must you must it must feel electric to walk around Silicon Valley every day at this time. >> I tell you, I when I first moved there, I got to be honest with you. Yeah. I mean, there there's brilliant people in politics, road scholars, you know, but when I I remember thinking to myself, wow, I didn't know human beings were this smart. >> Yeah. >> And it's and it's a very it's a different type of sport. is very technical, you know what I mean? Um, >> and then they get really good at building companies, too. >> Uh, and the venture capitalists help them. So, it's it it is fun and and and it's exciting. >> Let's talk about exits. What does a typical exit look like for your friend if there is a typical one? >> There almost is no typical one. But, okay. you. So, one thing we were taught like at Andre early on was you you don't want to encourage early exits. Like you don't want to be that venture capitalist who is encouraging your company to sell. And you don't even want to invest in a this was what this is one of the first things I learned. You don't want to invest in companies if someone's coming in to pitch you and part of their pitch is I think I can exit this company really soon. >> And that that is not intuitive. I would have thought that good business principles are okay, that's great. They're going to tell you how they're going to make money. No, the Silicon Valley way, which was, you know, made even better at the firm I worked for, was you want them to, you want that founder to stay with the company all the way through going public. >> Now, in the truth of the matter is that they don't always do that. if they're, you know, if they're really good, someone tries to acquire them and then just like the Godfather, if they make them an offer, they can't refuse and then they're gonna sell. And you know, that that happens. It's happened very interestingly in some of these aqua hires with some of the AI companies in the last 6 months. >> Um, but you just explained that because you mentioned that during the speech too that that those hires. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, Meta in particularly uh hired Aquire. So they they didn't actually buy the whole company. They acquired part of it and they acquired certain founders from the company. >> And so it's kind of it's kind of like half acquisition half aqua hire. >> Um >> it's but it shows you one kind of how hot the market is. to that the legacy players like like a meta are not relaxing that they very much don't want these younger companies to go up and be bigger than them and that they don't feel like they can compete with their peers if they don't hire some of the best and brightest. Um, so that's kind of what I meant. >> Okay, thanks. >> Yeah, >> aqua I've never heard that term, but >> I know I hadn't heard either, but makes a lot of sense. >> Maybe that's why I'm not Maybe that's why I'm not in Silicon Valley. >> Well, usually an aqua hire, if you if you think about it, it's not really like a great outcome. It's usually like you get hired just for the hiring of the people, but the but in in some of these cases recently, it's been for many billions of dollars. Yeah. So, and and all the investors come up who invested in the companies very early on uh have done very well. >> Yeah. That hit me as almost like free agency in sports when uh you're signing a player for >> Yeah. Exactly. >> 50 million or whatever it was. >> Yeah. No, it's it's become like that. I haven't, you know, I don't have all the facts and figures, but there's definitely been many reports of kind of really talented AI engineers getting recruited by big firms for millions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> Like in sports. So I this is actually the more you more you talk about this the more it fascinates me because you're telling me that for example let's say there's you know two or three founders or something and someone like Meta comes along and you know what if they only want one of them you know that's got to be an awkward outcome does it no like who >> so the left behind >> but but I think what's what's ended up happening is they >> they do that Godfather offer. They make an offer that everybody can't refuse. So they may take one of the founders into the company and that founder is going to work with Meta and do but the other ones >> they buy them out. >> Yeah. And that's one of the things you look back at the all the >> and they're buying the investors out too. So the investors you the investor would have wanted the company to go on for a long time but I mean they're sitting on probably something equivalent to >> 20 30 50x their investment. That that makes as you know venture capitalists have investors also so that makes our investors happy. >> Yeah. I mean I I guess if my feelings were hurt and I had tens of millions of dollars in my pocket it would it would probably just about level out. [laughter] Probably just about be okay. >> Yeah. >> You know I see. So it so I just want to be clear on this because it's nothing we've ever discussed on on this show. effectively. It sounds like you're telling that the whole company is effectively acquired, >> but you know, >> it's different every time and a lot of this has to do with I think regulation. I mean, mergers and acquisitions are regulated. So, it >> you know, if you just acquire part of the company, maybe it's not so regul. I'm not an M&A lawyer. I'm a lawyer but not an M&A lawyer. So, it's probably as far as I can help you understand it. But, it's very obvious that that's that's a part of it as well. I see. >> [snorts] >> you know, and good. If if they can figure out a way to make everybody happy and the companies get better and stronger and the ecosystem gets stronger and technology gets stronger, it does seem like a win-win. >> I'm I'm going to try to ask a question without using a certain word and I'll tell you what the word is. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um how how frenzied is this race in AI? like are you you know are you guys working you know 60 70 hours a week or you know 7 days a week because you have got to get the best before somebody else gets there or and the word I'm trying not to use is bubble because that word gets thrown around with AI all the time but I don't want to use it because it's you know it's just a whole there there's baggage with it that I don't want to get into. Well, certainly there's no company that is even in AI that's even moderately successful and growing moderately fast where the founders are and and the employees are not working 70 hours a week. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean I >> but what I'm I'm thinking about you as a firm though like is there a real sense that you better you know get your ass out there because you know all the other VCs are looking for that you know that unicorn that AI unicorn too. >> Yes. But there's a difference in in an operator and a venture capitalist. It's almost like the difference when I was in politics and an executive and a legislator, right? >> Like the only way to make your company successful is just you have to work. You have to work 80 80 90 hours a week. It it's that's the minimum you have to do. You have to work smart. You have to hire great people. You have to have good ideas, but you're not going to not to to not work great hours. Venture capital, like I was saying before, is a little bit more of an art. Like sometimes, and this has happened before, like someone will shoot me a text message that says, "Hey, there's this incredible founder who you have to meet um and that company that and I mean that's how I met the aerospace company. Someone sent me a text message and I just have to be like I and the way I you really just have to be top of mind with a lot of people who know great companies." But the way to be top of mind with a lot of people who know great companies, there's a lot of different ways to do it. Like when again when I'm in New York this week, I'm going to go talk to a lot of people and every one of them when I leave there, they may meet somebody and they'll say, "Hey, I was just with my friend with friend Adrian. He's a great investor. You should meet them." And it's a that's a way it's not just it's not just the amount of hours you put in. Although that's important it and because you have to read and know what you're doing, but it's also about making sure you're top of mind with really great entrepreneurs who know other great entrepreneurs and that they think highly of you too and that they will forward forward them to you if they if they hear about a great company. >> I just realized my question is just so typical of me as a as a typical sort of public markets guy, you know? I just like where's where's the sentiment indicator? You know, >> I want to hear give me the sentiment indicator. Well, yeah. I was just going to say it's different in the public like we're not you're you're really betting on on the people and the and the promise of it too more so than earnings or I mean whatever it may be >> and and if it's like any other kind of relationship type of thing like you know I mean all of us have been in like rel like you never know where you're going to meet your next great best friend right you might run into them like at a sports game or or someone who you're romantically involved with like in a funny way like that's kind of how company is like if you take 10 of my best companies, I bet I met all 10 of them >> in very different ways. I certainly met all 10 of them from very different people. Yeah. >> So, it's hard to make that into a science. And if you try too hard, you're going to end up missing out on on good deals. So, you just kind have to be very nimble and on your toes just kind of >> Just reminds me of stories I've I've heard of I bankers, too. You know, always on the phone, always making connections day after day after day. It's also like sports I think in a way like if I remember like hearing about like these famous recruiters you know what I mean like famous college basketball like a Rick Patino you know what I mean like he would you know >> who knows like he's you just got to go you're never not going to know where your great next great prospect is going to come from. So you've got to work really hard and be on your toes but you also got to be nimble enough to fly to New York or fly to Las Vegas wherever that next great talent is going to come from. >> Yeah. And now sports is turning into venture the venture world too with paying college players and >> Oh that's amazing. >> Uh when recruiting and all that I mean so >> um you were DC's youngest mayor and I think you said that you were the America's youngest mayor for a year. >> Young youngest mayor of in a big city for one year and then the mayor of Pittsburgh died and Pete Ravensfall became the mayor and he was like way younger than me. >> Okay. [laughter] >> But now obviously there's so much going on in American cities. >> Yeah. Now for all I could name off a list of five ten huge national topics. Yeah. >> What is your view on like what >> is the biggest challenges that our cities face and what needs to be done to just >> kind of I don't even know you to fix it or build build it or develop develop the cities. >> Fix it. Yeah. Okay. So here's the dialogue that I do like and I want to attribute it to anybody. Um, I do like dialogue that says that the cities aren't doing enough, that the cities aren't good enough. I do like that dialogue cuz they're not. >> Mhm. >> Right. And the bar for how good a city is is way too low. Like people I hate I really don't like when people just think there's always going to be crime in a city or the schools in a city are always going to be or there's always going to be trash or there's always going to be homelessness. And to be honest with you, there aren't many cities where the people who run those cities don't have that embedded into their mind and they and and they've had it for a while. And so a dialogue that says the cities are not good enough, I associate myself with that dialogue. Now, I think that what you do is you hire the the best person in your city to come in and make really tough decisions and put that city on a rocket and everyone else supports that person and and and and gets out of the way, >> you know, and and to to be honest with you, I think that's how you start to bring crime around in increase the performance of schools, you you know, have services for people who need them, everything that's important in a city. And and that's how you get great restaurants and great theaters and great hotels and the streets are clean. I I I don't think that these are too lofty of a goals. And I do think that the bar is too low. >> Bar is too low. >> And in some places, the bar is >> so low. Why is the bar? >> It sounds like there's And there's an embedded mentality of the low bar. It sounds like >> Yeah, there is an embedded mentality. I'll talk about San Francisco. I have no problem with that. I think Daniel Luri is doing a terrific job and he's only been in office for less than a year and so I think great I think he's got their city on the right trajectory and if he goes for another couple terms and someone really great comes in behind him I think San Francisco is going to be an incredible city but for the better part of the the whole time I have lived in Menlo Park not San Francisco but but have gone there to work >> the management of the city has been really really bad like they haven't hired the best people they haven't used technology in innovation. Well, there's a there's something called the broken windows theory and it it became popular around Juliana and it means you in New York if something is not working, you can't let it fester. You have to get at it right away. So, if there's homelessness on the street or people on the street or trash on the street or tents or anything, you have to get it up immediately. >> Yeah. >> Because if you don't, then some other problem will come in right behind it. And to be honest with you, if you talk to any great like Silicon Valley CEO, tech tech person, they will tell you that's how they run their company. You know, I mean, take a Jensen Wang who runs Nvidia. That's absolutely how he runs his company. That's how cities should be run. And I think we I don't there's so many reasons why we have lowered our standards, but a lot of it is bec honestly because we're letting politicians off too easy and and they're letting themselves off too easy. And so when people hold politicians more accountable, I'm the first in line to to be excited about it. >> Yeah. I guess and that speaks to what you were talking about during your speech recounting your DC days with uh you know trying to reform the the school system and >> and then that ultimately being held against you by the teachers union, >> which is fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There should be no person that's like >> there should be no person who has higher standards than the city than the person who has elected the mayor. There should be no person who has higher standards for that govern for that govern that state than the governor. And there should be no excuses and the performance should be to beat everybody else not only in the country but in the world. You should have better performance anywhere else in the world. And if you're not up to that job then you should not take the job or run for it. And also we shouldn't elect those people. Yeah. >> So, I have no I have I'm really really no patience for politicians who mail it in. >> Do I dare broach the topic of New York City with you? >> Gladly. >> Okay. >> We all know what's happening there and uh you know this election is >> frankly scaring the daylights out of a lot of people. >> Um how do you feel about it? >> I don't know either of the people running. I I you know what I mean? I don't know them personally. May maybe I've met Andrew Cuomo before. Here's the thing. The only way New York is going to continue to be as great a city as I think Giuliani and Bloomberg made it is for great management. Those were two really great managers. You may not like what they do. I never lived in New York. So people, but without any question, they they were hands-on. They had high standards. They held people accountable and they got things done. So since then, at least to date, there hasn't been there hasn't been that high level of management. So the next mayor of New York has to have that high level of management. It doesn't appear right now that either the people running are the kind of manager that Giuliani and Bloomberg were, but I know that most people in New York hope that they will be. Maybe they'll just, you know, completely be different when they get elected than they aren't. Stranger things have happened. But you will not make the city great if you are not a great manager. All this talk about like >> like ideas ideology and and and politics that's not what makes a city run great. Make what makes a city run great is great management. And the first rule of great management is hiring amazing people. If you look at the people who were I don't know the Julian administration well a little bit before my time but I know the Bloomberg administration. the people who he hired were just as good, if not better, than people you would find in similar private sector roles. So, whoever the next mayor is of New York or any other city, they have to come in and hire people who are just as good as the private sector, if not better. And and then that the city will do terrific. That's the only standard we should be thinking about for for these politicians. And then they have to make tough decisions because there will be tough decisions. But without even without hiring great people, it nothing matters >> to hear you talk about it. You talk about, you know, being the mayor of a big city um like it's a real job and that it's not about um ideology and it's not about, you know, wanting to make all the beds public or whatever, you know, Donnie wants to do. Yeah. You know, it it sounds like uh you know, it's like a job and you if you have experience being a very good manager, well, hey, then you're probably more likely to succeed. >> Um so different than the narrative of of politics in America. >> No, I couldn't agree more. >> Nobody's talking like you. >> Most people are most people pander. They pander >> Yeah. >> to get in office and they pander to stay in office. in office. >> The one thing I will say is >> I don't know if you have to be a manager to be a great manager and and I know some people who were great managers who are not great public managers also. >> You just have to do two things. I always talk about Kennedy and how he was adamant about hiring the best and the brightest to come to Washington because and then two you have to be impatient. You have to like you have to measure three times and cut once. You you you have to set the highest standards. What I know about Silicon Valley tech, great tech companies, is that the people who made them great, they set really high bars. >> And so, for instance, like if if we had if someone came in to me and said, >> okay, we're going to rebuild these these three schools in two and a half years. I would just tell them, no, that's not good enough. And it seems like a very simple thing, and it sounds like I'm someone who doesn't know construction. Both things are true. I don't know construction and I don't and and it is a very simple thing but I know that that's too long and so come give me a date that's shorter and I honestly that was half of what I did as mayor. I would just tell them no that's not good enough. You have to do it faster >> and that's and you government would change so much if we had and that's how the private sector is. That's how all these tech CEOs that we read about Elon Musk or I mean they really demand a lot out of their people. You know what's really funny? People really like it. >> My cabinet, when I told that story, my cabinet was really upset to be leaving. I was and I drove them hard. Michelle Ree, who was our school's chancellor, she was one of the toughest managers you could ever imagine. We had a waiting list of 7,000 people who wanted to be teachers in the DC public schools because for the first time, they felt like they would actually be held accountable. >> Yeah. Who wants to go to a job where like it doesn't really matter how good of a job you do? And that's what most governments are. Most people want to go to a job where they people expect them and demand them to do terrific. >> Yeah. No, nobody's demanding uh people in government to be terrific these days. They're they're demanding some they seem to be demanding something quite other. Um but wow, you you've had quite a you've had quite a career. Politics, youngest mayor, venture capital. It's pretty exciting to be Adrien Fenty. >> It's just great to be around great people. I mean, honestly, it's great to be around. When I was in camp camp, my campaigns, I mean, the level the how hard people worked. We would knock on doors when it was like 25 degrees and raining outside and people would show up and these I mean there's there's it's just as amazing investing in these young founders >> because to be honest with you, >> I mean, they're risking it all. You mean I'm not I'm not just talking about like the Stanford kid who drops out, you know, and parents go really get really mad at them and because they feel like they throw their life, although we have a lot of those and they're incredible. But all of them, you know, I mean, I've got, you know, I've got one new founder. She I mean, she actually had a baby while, you know, while we were investing in our company and like I mean, she so she's working like 80 90 hour weeks and she's raising two small kids and her husband and like and she's unflapable. I mean, it's unbelievable what she does. And so, they're they're risking everything to to bet on themselves, and it's just fun to be around them. >> That's super exciting. >> Yeah, >> it really is. So, we're I think we're just about time for our final question. >> Okay. >> Um, it is the same for every guest, no matter what the topic. >> Oh, wow. >> Identical question. Even if sometimes every now and then we've had a non-financial guest over the years, same identical question. And it really is just for our our viewers, our listeners. If you could just leave our listeners with a thought, you know, like a typical the traders that we talk to, they like to say, you know, cut let your winners run and cut your losers short and and it could be anything. A core principle, you know, philosophical. Yeah. Something philosophical. You know, some people they get outside and touch grass. I mean, it could be it could be just about it could be just about anything. >> I'll I'll just connect I'll say something I said before, but I'll I'll connect it in in in my world. Like I'm not you're from Silicon Valley. I'm not a Silicon Valley insider. I'm not from tech. I It's not how I made my first career. I I come to this as some something of a transplant. But it just makes me super proud that Silicon Valley and and all of the associated places, whether it be, you know, some other places where people are building great technological products are here in the United States that we're taking a lead. Like if I could think of one thing that we would want to be the best at out of all the things we do, you know what I mean? Besides education, but one thing it would be that we would be the best in techn technology and innovation. And at least right now in October of 2025, we are the best in that. And I and I think too often we don't we take it for granted. We don't celebrate it enough. And unfortunately, I think this has changed a little bit recently, but un unfortunately over the last 12 years, I have I've been going back and forth between DC and Silicon Valley. Too many Washington politicians um really overly critique um Silicon Valley and make it hard for these business people to do business, a a business that is transforming the world. And I think I'm glad to see that starting to change. And I I hope that that's part of the future that that that politicians and government, particularly those in Washington, will really celebrate this great thing that America is doing uh and and find every way that we can continue to make it grow faster and go as long as possible. >> Well, thanks again for being here, Adrian. It was great to talk with you. >> Yeah, thank you guys. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. >> All right. All right. Well, that's another interview and that's another episode of the Stanberry Investor Hour. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we really truly did. Opinions expressed on this program are solely those of the contributor and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Stanbury Research, its parent company, or affiliates.