‘It’s 1996 Again’: Here’s Why BlackRock & Vanguard Just Signaled the Crypto Super Cycle
Summary
Bitcoin Volatility: Sharp overnight drop to $83K reversed by strong U.S. ETF inflows and Vanguard opening access, signaling retail-to-institutional handoff.
Institutional Adoption: BlackRock and Vanguard’s moves are seen as cementing Bitcoin’s mainstream status and building structural long-term demand despite persistent volatility.
Tokenization: BlackRock’s leadership touts tokenization as the next internet-scale shift, moving RWAs on-chain for instant settlement and building infrastructure to cut intermediaries.
Risk vs. Hedge: Bitcoin trades like a high-beta risk asset while gold acts as portfolio insurance; both are viewed as complementary hedges amid economic uncertainty.
MicroStrategy Trade: Discussion of MSTR’s premium unwind and leveraged ETF fallout suggests the “strategy premium” trade may be fading versus direct Bitcoin or ETFs.
Portfolio Approach: Emphasis on dollar-cost averaging into Bitcoin and recognition that gold and Bitcoin can both perform well as hedges in a potential recession.
Ethereum Setup: Presenter is constructive on Ethereum, citing TradFi embrace, spot ETF traction, and staking ETF proposals, while noting competition and differences from Bitcoin.
Regulatory and Outlook: Support for self-custody and focus on U.S.-aligned, spot-ETF-ready cryptos; base case is a bullish Q1 2026 absent major shocks.
Transcript
In focus [music] with Jeremy Saffron is brought to you by Swan, the real Bitcoin company. >> Welcome back. I'm Jeremy Saffron. Now, Bitcoin traders woke up to a rough night. A sudden liquidity shock in Asia sent Bitcoin down to $83,000, triggering panic and wiping out billions in long positions. But then [music] the US markets opened and the entire picture flipped here. Now, ETF volume surged and more importantly, Vanguard finally opened its doors to Bitcoin ETFs after years of blocking crypto access for its clients. Now, that decision alone has sent over 1 billion dollars of buy volume into the market within minutes. So, yeah, you can call this volatility, but a lot of people watching it looked like something else. Retail panic selling into institutional accumulation. And meanwhile, I should say gold continues to do what it always does. It's currently trading pretty steady here, just below $4,200 on the spot side. Now, we got to break this all down. We got to analyze it. And to do that, let's look at the market signals and the path forward. And joining me now is Wendy O. She's the host of the O show. Wendy, great to have you with KitKo. Nice to see you. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to talk markets with you, primarily Bitcoin and crypto because today was a crazy day. Most definitely. Especially after this weekend. It's it's always interesting when you work in markets as you do because obviously you're on the crypto side and we also cover the traditional market. So when you wake up in the morning and you have an asset that's trading 24 hours a day, it can always obviously bring some volatility. But I I want to start with what we were talking about that headline. I mean everyone's kind of reacting to it got slammed overnight, right? I mean retail seems like it got shook out a little bit. Then the ETFs trading opens in the US. money starts pouring back in this exact moment Vanguard lifts its long-standing crypto ban. People are saying, I mean, there's a lot of talk on X saying, you know, this feels like a a classic wealth transfer. From your perspective, I mean, did did retail just hand over cheap Bitcoin to Vanguard clients, or is this morning's move simply a liquidity story? >> I I think there's a lot of different pieces here. Um we did have the um the current SEC uh chair Paul Atkins he did come out and he did talk about um you know basically the US markets are open for crypto now which is incredibly important. We had folks from Black Rockck talk about tokenization and then the Vanguard news is just absolutely massive. And yes, it is a little bit of a different clientele or I want to say customer or demographic than what we generally see in crypto. But at the same time, we had all these bullish catalysts at once kind of happen. And you know, we saw a lot of selling that happened last week. Um, Bitcoin price definitely dropped down quite quite a bit. there was a lot of outflows with with the ETFs, but at the end of the day, we when we do take a look at a lot of the inflows, um what's happening with Black Rockck, I mean, of course, the Bitcoin spot ETF, I want to say it came out the other day that it was one of their most popular products, um that they're able to garnish a lot of um uh a lot of capital with that and selling it to their customers. So, I think that the markets are just doing what they're doing. I feel like um traditional finance is essentially getting a little bit accustomed to our volatility and seeing how our our markets work. And it's it's I think it's pretty fun for some of them. Wouldn't you agree? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting to watch because I mean leadership, you keep bringing up Black Rockck. I mean, Vanguard's new CEO, Salem Ramsey, he's the same person who built Black Rockck's Bitcoin ETF and now he's obviously, you know, given$ 8 trillion worth of clients access to Bitcoin. So, so let me ask you, I mean, does this moment cement Bitcoin? We knew it already with the Bitcoin spot ETFs last year, but I mean, does this Bitco does this moment kind of cemented as the fully mainstream asset with that structural long-term demand behind it? >> I personally think that, you know, in in crypto and in Bitcoin, we kind of knew that this was eventually going to happen, the vertical integration of crypto into traditional finance. Um, and I feel like that was solidified when Black Rockck filed for the Bitcoin spot ETF. Like once that happened, because they're a massive name in traditional finance. I feel like that was the catalyst that that everyone was like, "Oh my god, it's finally here. It's finally happening." Now, we can talk about ethics with that all day long cuz Bitcoin was created for the people by the people out of 2008 housing crash. But at the same time, um you do need some sort of um correspondence with traditional finance. Um some compromise with that to to really push it to um push Bitcoin to what it's supposed to be and hopefully that um happens with price as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. you brought up, you know, kind of institutions getting used to the volatility and people are right. It's not at so much of a panic and we've seen these dips and these little haircuts before. Our viewers pay close attention to how these assets behave under stress because gold is steady. I mean, it's been quiet. It's kind of acting like insurance and then they look at Bitcoin and it's traded overnight kind of like that high beta tech stock dropping in lock step with crude oil in NASDAQ futures. I guess the question is is you know for our audience if if the economy slows into 2026 does it Bitcoin get dragged down with other risk assets while gold keeps climbing? Is that a fair concern? >> It definitely could be. I mean Bitcoin was created you know again it was created out of the 2008 housing um crisis that we saw in America um because of what was going on with the institutions and and the banks. So, you know, Bitcoin has always kind of been that hedge against inflation or that hedge against uncertain times as far as geopolitical um issues go, um economics goes, those types of things. Um but at the same time, it's still a brand new I mean, gold I mean, Bitcoin is considered as digital gold. But at the same time, I think it is important to to note that they both do different things and that gold has been more of this more vertically integrated into traditional finance a lot longer than Bitcoin has. So, even though both are great products to um to essentially um diversify into, I feel that they both do different things and they're both going to trade a little bit differently and that's kind of what makes these markets fun especially for investors. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I was watching your your live stream just talking a little bit there too and I mean the Fed didn't just end QT it also injected 13.5 billion dollars into the banking system in a single day. I mean it's one of the biggest liquidity operations since co we don't see a ton of headlines about it when cryptos maybe oversold a little bit. A move like this can flip the sentiment fast. How meaningful is that pivot for the next leg lag of you know the Bitcoin market. >> Um hopefully it's it's a it's a good one and hopefully we continue to to move back up. I mean there has been a lot of different analysts um you know the Tom Lees and the the Michael Sailors and the Kathy Woods saying you know Bitcoin we're in the super cycle. you know, this is the bottom here. We're going to, you know, Bitcoin's going to hit a million, two mill, what whatever that may be. And I love to see it because it's it's just more positivity in the market. Now, is it realistic? Um, again, Bitcoin is a little bit different than gold and a little bit different than a lot of other traditional assets that we do see just because it kind of feels like it has a mind of its own, which is a good thing because again, it keeps the markets very, very exciting. So hopefully we did in fact find some sort of bottom and hopefully the market does you know continue to move back up and we do break all-time high and that four-year cycle is over. But at the same time I feel like it's still a little bit too early to tell. >> Yeah. I mean you I cover a lot more gold than Bitcoin. So you have a bit of a front seat to this more than me. And that's why I wanted to bring you on too is talk kind of host to host and when what you're hearing because we heard that you know that story about strategy and micro strategy obviously that hit retail hard last week. That stock is down sharply. leveraged ETFs tied to it like MSTX and others are down nearly 80%. And and the reason goes deeper than price for months. Traders were paying a massive premium for exposure, sometimes effectively $3 for every dollar of Bitcoin the company actually held. Now with Bitcoin ETFs available and it seems like when everywhere, including at Vanguard, does the strategy premium trade still make sense or or does that play over? Honestly, I I I do talk about strategy a lot, but I prefer to hold my Bitcoin myself to control the keys myself and have that prepared say, you know, safely stored away. So, we do talk about Micro Strategy just a little bit and kind of their operations, you know, is Michael Sailor by well, is is strategy buying more Bitcoin? Because again, it it kind of tells this story as to what, you know, Tradfi is thinking or how they're feeling and the different moves that they're playing. And again, the whole strategy um trade again, it's just a trade. It's just kind of a bet that this might do well and I feel like it keeps the markets very interesting. Michael Sailor is a very interesting person. Um um strategies pivot and what they've done with Bitcoin has been a lot different than Bitcoin's true intended purpose. But at the same time, we're operating in this true decentralized economy where people can do what they want to do with their Bitcoin when they want to. >> Yeah. And technically, I mean, Bitcoin holding $83,000 was was kind of critical here and it bounced cleanly off of that level. Is that your kind of preferred accumulation zone or or do you want more confirmation before calling a base? I mean, it seems like maybe that was it. >> Yeah, it does. I mean, I'm looking at the chart right now as we speak and the the 8 the like the 84 $86,000 area does seem like a nice little local bottom. Um, but at the same time, people that are really into Bitcoin that have been in these markets for a long time, we absolutely love to dollar cost average or just buy Bitcoin at any price just because we have so much conviction in it. And that's kind of what Michael Sailor has been doing with strategy is they will just they simply just dollar cost average. They don't look to find the exact bottom. They don't look to find the exact top. They just enter and then they continue um to move on with their trading and investing plan and you know the different types of conversations they have with their shareholders and business operations. So with Bitcoin, we're not necessarily super concerned about looking for a local bottom. I mean, some some folks are people that are actively trading, but I feel like there's a lot of similarities between um dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin and dollar cost averaging into gold that um people that are fans of both of these markets can agree on. We just want to buy at any price. >> Yeah. Yeah. I want to pivot to the to to that story and I know you know about this, that one that just broke. Uh and I know you're covering it. I mean, while retail is kind of panicking over price charts, as we were just covering, Larry Frink and Rob Goldstein from BlackRock just published an an op-ed in The Economist and we'll we'll bring it up. I mean, they aren't talking about Bitcoin ETFs anymore. They're talking about tokenization. And I I'll read this quote. Larry Frink writes, "Tokenization today is roughly where the internet was in 1996." He says, "The technology will replace paper with code and allow for instantaneous settlement from all assets, stock, bonds, real estate." Uh Wendy, if if Vanguard is is, you know, quote, the gateway for people to buy Bitcoin, is Black Rockck building the actual operating system for the entire financial world, is is this the kind of crypto super cycle you've been talking about? >> That that's kind of what it feels like. And I always think it's very interesting because Black Rockck's been talking about um tokenization for a long time. And when we talk about tokenization, we kind of look into the nitty-gritty of it. Um tokenization is just a fancy word for RWA, real world assets, which is another fancy word for NFTTS. kind of evolved um evolved and the cool thing about it is is that um people will actually be able to prove their ownership for for various assets and it'll bring hopefully it'll bring a lot of different transparency but I do think that um that I do agree with you or to answer your question that um BlackRock is kind of building the infrastructure for this to function properly because at the end of the day all these traditional financial entities they're businesses they care about their bottom line and if they can kind of remove their their third party that deals with a lot of the fees and just host the stuff themselves. Why wouldn't they want to build that out and potentially use existing systems? So, I think moving forward, we're going to see a lot more um talk about tokenization. I mean, Larry Frink and Black Rockck have been talking about it for a long time. They have a fund called the Biddle Fund, which is one of the largest tokenized asset pools globally that involves, you know, a couple different cryptos, which is really cool to see. But, I think that they are going to continue to build this out to where it will benefit their bottom line and their shareholders and everything else that they've got going on. And it is just kind of an advancement of of technology. And it's more so um things happening happening instantly like instant gratification. In America, we're so used to that happening to where we we want to buy something online, we just go ahead and buy it and and whatnot or if we want to watch something, we can stream it instantly. And I feel that's exactly what Black Rockck's doing, but they're building it for um for RWAS and and tokenization because it does make sense with Larry Fink talking about, you know, crypto and Bitcoin feels like this is 1996 again with the internet. >> Yeah. I mean, they're talking about putting everything, every asset, stocks, bonds, real estate onto an onchain rails with kind of that instant settlement. That's the feature. Do you see this is the moment where blockchain stops being a niche and becomes part of, you know, global financial infrastructure? I think we're still a bit a ways away. Um it's going to be very interesting to see these institutions to see what what blockchain they end up building or what crypto um blockchains that they end up working with or partnering with or if they just decide to build their own. And I think we are a little bit a ways away. Um I don't we were still dealing with the Clarity Act. Um we're still dealing with regulatory compliance like and classifications of what these different assets are, how they'll be classified, what they need to do. So, I feel like it is going to take a little bit of time um because again, traditional finance does move a little bit slower than we do in crypto, but I think that over the next five years, we're going to see a lot of a lot of growth and we're going to see a lot of different systems being built out. >> Yeah. Listen, you you get that obviously as we saw with the spot Bitcoin ETFs being approved last year, we started to get people saying, "Okay, well, this is not what Bitcoin is about." You've heard this you've heard this debate, right? I mean, if Wall Street controls if Yeah. You've never heard it, right? um you know if Wall Street controls the rails is this still the vision crypto was built on because tokenization sounds revolutionary but if you could also you know it could become a fully centralized system kind of disguises blockchain that's what people are worried about do you think retail understands how much power institutions would have in that model >> I I think to an extent and this is the thing Bitcoin was created for the people by the people and it's we're operating in this true decentralized economy which right anybody can access it and do what they want to do with it Now, just because um I don't agree that Black Rockck's coming in doesn't mean I really have a say in it because we're we're talking about this true decentralized economy, but at the same time, we have as far as the regulatory landscape, Hester Pierce just came out and said that um self- custody is a fundamental right, which is incredibly bullish, and I hope more people decide to practice self- custody with their Bitcoin and their crypto in a safe manner. Um and I mean, it is a little bit hard. I'm not really a big fan of traditional finance coming in because I do feel like Bitcoin was created for the underdogs. But at the same time, I feel like this is a very important opportunity for people who feel that they were kind of shafted by um traditional finance retail because again, retail and accredited investors have way different um they they have way they they have different privileges that are allotted to them in in the market. But I feel like this is a really good time for retail to really understand their power and to to practice self-custody so they don't feel like that they're getting left behind because at the end of the day traditional finance is a beast and they're going to do what they want to do when they want to do it. >> Yeah, I was going to ask you that because I mean you know the question is where's the trade? I mean if everything is going to go on chain are we looking at the wrong coin? Should investors be rotating out of old altcoins and into the protocols that Black Rockck you know can eventually use for its infrastructure? So, me personally, I do diversify my portfolio in different tiers, and I love my Bitcoin, but I also think it's really important to pay attention to the cryptos that, and again, not financial advice, guys, but to pay attention to the cryptos that are made in the USA, the cryptos that will or or have become cryptospot ETFs because there is liquidity flowing in. Retail's a little bit exhausted right now, especially with the current shape of the economy. I do feel that we are in a recession. So, it's not like we have additional capital to spend, especially when we're talking about investing. So paying attention to those type of cryptos that you know has kind of been approved by traditional finance I think might be a very interesting trade for people that um that are able to to pivot to that. >> Yeah. I mean we're we're we talked about it before coming to air. I can't believe it's already December. But as we head into it, I mean we got the Fed ending QT, we got Japan tightening and institutions widening their footprint into this market of yours. I mean, when you step back and look at these moving pieces together, what does the setup look like going into early 2026, are we talking still kind of a recovery phase or or does this still feel like the market needs to get into digest more volatility first? >> To be honest, it really depends. Um, there's a lot of announcements that President Trump likes to make regarding, you know, income taxes potentially going away because of tariffs. And you know, we did have the shutdown, which kind of caught a lot of people off guard, myself included, because I thought we were going to get a plethora of these cryptospot ETFs approved. I believe there was about 150 plus um pretty quickly because that's kind of what the CFTC and the SEC and all the governing bodies had talked about. So unless we have some sort of insane catalyst that happens that kind of restricts the market or just kind of shocks the system, I am anticipating a bullish quarter 1 of 2026 just as long as we don't have any [laughter] um anything too crazy happening. Yeah. Yeah. You brought up Trump and I have to ask you because I was reading the story this morning. Everyone, you know, says that they're getting rich off of this, but we saw American Bitcoin Corp., that's the the minor co-founded by Eric Trump lose more than half of its value in under 30 minutes. I mean, trading halts, there was panic. Uh, when a stock tied to a sitting president's family collapses that fast, what does that tell you about how fragile that speculative end of this market still is? >> I mean, this is the thing. Every every investment is speculative. Um, the term investment gets misconstrued by a lot of people. A lot of think, okay, I'm going to invest in a 401k and numbers going to go up. This is going to be good because it's it's controlled and we have oversight and we have protections and we have red tape. But that's not how it works. Investments are inherently risky. Now, do I like that um President Trump's family has kind of capitalized off of this off of crypto and Bitcoin the way they have? Not necessarily. But at the same time, we are operating in a true decentralized economy to where anybody can enter the markets um whether they want to. And we can we can argue about ethics with that all day long. Um but one thing I will say is I am thankful that crypto and Bitcoin is not banned in the United States of America. We still are allowed to participate. >> Yeah. What do you got to say for I mean we were talking what you you said that listen gold fans, Bitcoin fans, we're all on the same team. What do you got to say to the gold audience looking here? I mean, we do have portfolio managers coming out saying that they should carry 4% of Bitcoin as well as gold. >> I don't see why that would be an issue. If we're talking about um America being in a recession, if we're talking about um global uncertainty, economic uncertaint, geopolitical uncertainty, I think that hedging is always a good idea because you're not you don't have all of your eggs in one basket. If something fails, you always can look the other direction and that that scenario or that choice might work out for you. So, I think gold and Bitcoin are both really great assets to pay attention to during these times, and I think that they both can potentially perform incredibly well. >> I got to ask you, we had a couple of viewers write in just quickly, your opinion on Ethereum. I mean, is it just going to kind of sit here, go around the Bitcoin price? We're going to see some action. Any thoughts on those alts? >> I've been holding um Ethereum for quite some time. So, I am hoping for that that really, really big price pump. You know, we've got Mr. Tom Lee, and I wish he would act a little bit more like drummer Tommy Lee. Um >> [laughter] >> with the crypto spirit and get get that price up. Um, but at the same time, you know, Ethereum is as of right now, it is traditional finance's, you know, chosen one. You know, Black Rockck, for example, has their their Ethereum spot ETF and they recently applied for an Ethereum staking ETF, kind of similar to what Bitwise did with the Salana staking ETF. So, uh, right now, Ethereum is kind of the chosen one. That could potentially change in the future. Um, but it is definitely something that is that is pretty interesting and is very different from Bitcoin. It operates a lot differently and it's got but it does have some good competitors in the space. >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you think going into December here before I let you go in? I mean, what should what is our audience? What are they missing here? What what's something that you closely watch that most don't? >> Again, I think it's incredibly important that people do pay attention to what the Larrys are saying and that what traditional finance is doing, what JP Morgan is saying. I think it's incredibly important to look at all of these contradicting sentiments that we have so that people are able to self-educate themselves and make investments that work the best for best for themselves and families to improve their quality of life. But I really think that it is important to pay attention to a lot of the cryptos that are made in America and that will become um cryptospot ETFs or have been already. I think that those will probably be the winners, fingers crossed. Um and and those that are also creating partnerships with a lot of these traditional financial entities. Yeah, say what you will. 2025 has been a heck of a year for crypto and Bitcoin as a as a whole. All right. Well, we'll be watching the macro signals closely. It rem remains a key story here in the markets. Wendy O, great having you on the show. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. Navigating this volatility does take the right perspective. Now, a big thank you to our sponsor, Swan Bitcoin, your partner for generational wealth. You can get started at swan.com/kickco. Now, for Kicko News, I'm Jeremy Saffron. Stay with us. We got great content all week long, [music] so be sure to subscribe. We'll see you next time. [music] >> Swan is the premier Bitcoin wealth platform serving leaders of families and businesses. Swan's missiondriven team simplifies Bitcoin [music] investment, custody, and security, bringing you concierge service, [music] worldclass research, and exclusive events.
‘It’s 1996 Again’: Here’s Why BlackRock & Vanguard Just Signaled the Crypto Super Cycle
Summary
Transcript
In focus [music] with Jeremy Saffron is brought to you by Swan, the real Bitcoin company. >> Welcome back. I'm Jeremy Saffron. Now, Bitcoin traders woke up to a rough night. A sudden liquidity shock in Asia sent Bitcoin down to $83,000, triggering panic and wiping out billions in long positions. But then [music] the US markets opened and the entire picture flipped here. Now, ETF volume surged and more importantly, Vanguard finally opened its doors to Bitcoin ETFs after years of blocking crypto access for its clients. Now, that decision alone has sent over 1 billion dollars of buy volume into the market within minutes. So, yeah, you can call this volatility, but a lot of people watching it looked like something else. Retail panic selling into institutional accumulation. And meanwhile, I should say gold continues to do what it always does. It's currently trading pretty steady here, just below $4,200 on the spot side. Now, we got to break this all down. We got to analyze it. And to do that, let's look at the market signals and the path forward. And joining me now is Wendy O. She's the host of the O show. Wendy, great to have you with KitKo. Nice to see you. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to talk markets with you, primarily Bitcoin and crypto because today was a crazy day. Most definitely. Especially after this weekend. It's it's always interesting when you work in markets as you do because obviously you're on the crypto side and we also cover the traditional market. So when you wake up in the morning and you have an asset that's trading 24 hours a day, it can always obviously bring some volatility. But I I want to start with what we were talking about that headline. I mean everyone's kind of reacting to it got slammed overnight, right? I mean retail seems like it got shook out a little bit. Then the ETFs trading opens in the US. money starts pouring back in this exact moment Vanguard lifts its long-standing crypto ban. People are saying, I mean, there's a lot of talk on X saying, you know, this feels like a a classic wealth transfer. From your perspective, I mean, did did retail just hand over cheap Bitcoin to Vanguard clients, or is this morning's move simply a liquidity story? >> I I think there's a lot of different pieces here. Um we did have the um the current SEC uh chair Paul Atkins he did come out and he did talk about um you know basically the US markets are open for crypto now which is incredibly important. We had folks from Black Rockck talk about tokenization and then the Vanguard news is just absolutely massive. And yes, it is a little bit of a different clientele or I want to say customer or demographic than what we generally see in crypto. But at the same time, we had all these bullish catalysts at once kind of happen. And you know, we saw a lot of selling that happened last week. Um, Bitcoin price definitely dropped down quite quite a bit. there was a lot of outflows with with the ETFs, but at the end of the day, we when we do take a look at a lot of the inflows, um what's happening with Black Rockck, I mean, of course, the Bitcoin spot ETF, I want to say it came out the other day that it was one of their most popular products, um that they're able to garnish a lot of um uh a lot of capital with that and selling it to their customers. So, I think that the markets are just doing what they're doing. I feel like um traditional finance is essentially getting a little bit accustomed to our volatility and seeing how our our markets work. And it's it's I think it's pretty fun for some of them. Wouldn't you agree? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting to watch because I mean leadership, you keep bringing up Black Rockck. I mean, Vanguard's new CEO, Salem Ramsey, he's the same person who built Black Rockck's Bitcoin ETF and now he's obviously, you know, given$ 8 trillion worth of clients access to Bitcoin. So, so let me ask you, I mean, does this moment cement Bitcoin? We knew it already with the Bitcoin spot ETFs last year, but I mean, does this Bitco does this moment kind of cemented as the fully mainstream asset with that structural long-term demand behind it? >> I personally think that, you know, in in crypto and in Bitcoin, we kind of knew that this was eventually going to happen, the vertical integration of crypto into traditional finance. Um, and I feel like that was solidified when Black Rockck filed for the Bitcoin spot ETF. Like once that happened, because they're a massive name in traditional finance. I feel like that was the catalyst that that everyone was like, "Oh my god, it's finally here. It's finally happening." Now, we can talk about ethics with that all day long cuz Bitcoin was created for the people by the people out of 2008 housing crash. But at the same time, um you do need some sort of um correspondence with traditional finance. Um some compromise with that to to really push it to um push Bitcoin to what it's supposed to be and hopefully that um happens with price as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. you brought up, you know, kind of institutions getting used to the volatility and people are right. It's not at so much of a panic and we've seen these dips and these little haircuts before. Our viewers pay close attention to how these assets behave under stress because gold is steady. I mean, it's been quiet. It's kind of acting like insurance and then they look at Bitcoin and it's traded overnight kind of like that high beta tech stock dropping in lock step with crude oil in NASDAQ futures. I guess the question is is you know for our audience if if the economy slows into 2026 does it Bitcoin get dragged down with other risk assets while gold keeps climbing? Is that a fair concern? >> It definitely could be. I mean Bitcoin was created you know again it was created out of the 2008 housing um crisis that we saw in America um because of what was going on with the institutions and and the banks. So, you know, Bitcoin has always kind of been that hedge against inflation or that hedge against uncertain times as far as geopolitical um issues go, um economics goes, those types of things. Um but at the same time, it's still a brand new I mean, gold I mean, Bitcoin is considered as digital gold. But at the same time, I think it is important to to note that they both do different things and that gold has been more of this more vertically integrated into traditional finance a lot longer than Bitcoin has. So, even though both are great products to um to essentially um diversify into, I feel that they both do different things and they're both going to trade a little bit differently and that's kind of what makes these markets fun especially for investors. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I was watching your your live stream just talking a little bit there too and I mean the Fed didn't just end QT it also injected 13.5 billion dollars into the banking system in a single day. I mean it's one of the biggest liquidity operations since co we don't see a ton of headlines about it when cryptos maybe oversold a little bit. A move like this can flip the sentiment fast. How meaningful is that pivot for the next leg lag of you know the Bitcoin market. >> Um hopefully it's it's a it's a good one and hopefully we continue to to move back up. I mean there has been a lot of different analysts um you know the Tom Lees and the the Michael Sailors and the Kathy Woods saying you know Bitcoin we're in the super cycle. you know, this is the bottom here. We're going to, you know, Bitcoin's going to hit a million, two mill, what whatever that may be. And I love to see it because it's it's just more positivity in the market. Now, is it realistic? Um, again, Bitcoin is a little bit different than gold and a little bit different than a lot of other traditional assets that we do see just because it kind of feels like it has a mind of its own, which is a good thing because again, it keeps the markets very, very exciting. So hopefully we did in fact find some sort of bottom and hopefully the market does you know continue to move back up and we do break all-time high and that four-year cycle is over. But at the same time I feel like it's still a little bit too early to tell. >> Yeah. I mean you I cover a lot more gold than Bitcoin. So you have a bit of a front seat to this more than me. And that's why I wanted to bring you on too is talk kind of host to host and when what you're hearing because we heard that you know that story about strategy and micro strategy obviously that hit retail hard last week. That stock is down sharply. leveraged ETFs tied to it like MSTX and others are down nearly 80%. And and the reason goes deeper than price for months. Traders were paying a massive premium for exposure, sometimes effectively $3 for every dollar of Bitcoin the company actually held. Now with Bitcoin ETFs available and it seems like when everywhere, including at Vanguard, does the strategy premium trade still make sense or or does that play over? Honestly, I I I do talk about strategy a lot, but I prefer to hold my Bitcoin myself to control the keys myself and have that prepared say, you know, safely stored away. So, we do talk about Micro Strategy just a little bit and kind of their operations, you know, is Michael Sailor by well, is is strategy buying more Bitcoin? Because again, it it kind of tells this story as to what, you know, Tradfi is thinking or how they're feeling and the different moves that they're playing. And again, the whole strategy um trade again, it's just a trade. It's just kind of a bet that this might do well and I feel like it keeps the markets very interesting. Michael Sailor is a very interesting person. Um um strategies pivot and what they've done with Bitcoin has been a lot different than Bitcoin's true intended purpose. But at the same time, we're operating in this true decentralized economy where people can do what they want to do with their Bitcoin when they want to. >> Yeah. And technically, I mean, Bitcoin holding $83,000 was was kind of critical here and it bounced cleanly off of that level. Is that your kind of preferred accumulation zone or or do you want more confirmation before calling a base? I mean, it seems like maybe that was it. >> Yeah, it does. I mean, I'm looking at the chart right now as we speak and the the 8 the like the 84 $86,000 area does seem like a nice little local bottom. Um, but at the same time, people that are really into Bitcoin that have been in these markets for a long time, we absolutely love to dollar cost average or just buy Bitcoin at any price just because we have so much conviction in it. And that's kind of what Michael Sailor has been doing with strategy is they will just they simply just dollar cost average. They don't look to find the exact bottom. They don't look to find the exact top. They just enter and then they continue um to move on with their trading and investing plan and you know the different types of conversations they have with their shareholders and business operations. So with Bitcoin, we're not necessarily super concerned about looking for a local bottom. I mean, some some folks are people that are actively trading, but I feel like there's a lot of similarities between um dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin and dollar cost averaging into gold that um people that are fans of both of these markets can agree on. We just want to buy at any price. >> Yeah. Yeah. I want to pivot to the to to that story and I know you know about this, that one that just broke. Uh and I know you're covering it. I mean, while retail is kind of panicking over price charts, as we were just covering, Larry Frink and Rob Goldstein from BlackRock just published an an op-ed in The Economist and we'll we'll bring it up. I mean, they aren't talking about Bitcoin ETFs anymore. They're talking about tokenization. And I I'll read this quote. Larry Frink writes, "Tokenization today is roughly where the internet was in 1996." He says, "The technology will replace paper with code and allow for instantaneous settlement from all assets, stock, bonds, real estate." Uh Wendy, if if Vanguard is is, you know, quote, the gateway for people to buy Bitcoin, is Black Rockck building the actual operating system for the entire financial world, is is this the kind of crypto super cycle you've been talking about? >> That that's kind of what it feels like. And I always think it's very interesting because Black Rockck's been talking about um tokenization for a long time. And when we talk about tokenization, we kind of look into the nitty-gritty of it. Um tokenization is just a fancy word for RWA, real world assets, which is another fancy word for NFTTS. kind of evolved um evolved and the cool thing about it is is that um people will actually be able to prove their ownership for for various assets and it'll bring hopefully it'll bring a lot of different transparency but I do think that um that I do agree with you or to answer your question that um BlackRock is kind of building the infrastructure for this to function properly because at the end of the day all these traditional financial entities they're businesses they care about their bottom line and if they can kind of remove their their third party that deals with a lot of the fees and just host the stuff themselves. Why wouldn't they want to build that out and potentially use existing systems? So, I think moving forward, we're going to see a lot more um talk about tokenization. I mean, Larry Frink and Black Rockck have been talking about it for a long time. They have a fund called the Biddle Fund, which is one of the largest tokenized asset pools globally that involves, you know, a couple different cryptos, which is really cool to see. But, I think that they are going to continue to build this out to where it will benefit their bottom line and their shareholders and everything else that they've got going on. And it is just kind of an advancement of of technology. And it's more so um things happening happening instantly like instant gratification. In America, we're so used to that happening to where we we want to buy something online, we just go ahead and buy it and and whatnot or if we want to watch something, we can stream it instantly. And I feel that's exactly what Black Rockck's doing, but they're building it for um for RWAS and and tokenization because it does make sense with Larry Fink talking about, you know, crypto and Bitcoin feels like this is 1996 again with the internet. >> Yeah. I mean, they're talking about putting everything, every asset, stocks, bonds, real estate onto an onchain rails with kind of that instant settlement. That's the feature. Do you see this is the moment where blockchain stops being a niche and becomes part of, you know, global financial infrastructure? I think we're still a bit a ways away. Um it's going to be very interesting to see these institutions to see what what blockchain they end up building or what crypto um blockchains that they end up working with or partnering with or if they just decide to build their own. And I think we are a little bit a ways away. Um I don't we were still dealing with the Clarity Act. Um we're still dealing with regulatory compliance like and classifications of what these different assets are, how they'll be classified, what they need to do. So, I feel like it is going to take a little bit of time um because again, traditional finance does move a little bit slower than we do in crypto, but I think that over the next five years, we're going to see a lot of a lot of growth and we're going to see a lot of different systems being built out. >> Yeah. Listen, you you get that obviously as we saw with the spot Bitcoin ETFs being approved last year, we started to get people saying, "Okay, well, this is not what Bitcoin is about." You've heard this you've heard this debate, right? I mean, if Wall Street controls if Yeah. You've never heard it, right? um you know if Wall Street controls the rails is this still the vision crypto was built on because tokenization sounds revolutionary but if you could also you know it could become a fully centralized system kind of disguises blockchain that's what people are worried about do you think retail understands how much power institutions would have in that model >> I I think to an extent and this is the thing Bitcoin was created for the people by the people and it's we're operating in this true decentralized economy which right anybody can access it and do what they want to do with it Now, just because um I don't agree that Black Rockck's coming in doesn't mean I really have a say in it because we're we're talking about this true decentralized economy, but at the same time, we have as far as the regulatory landscape, Hester Pierce just came out and said that um self- custody is a fundamental right, which is incredibly bullish, and I hope more people decide to practice self- custody with their Bitcoin and their crypto in a safe manner. Um and I mean, it is a little bit hard. I'm not really a big fan of traditional finance coming in because I do feel like Bitcoin was created for the underdogs. But at the same time, I feel like this is a very important opportunity for people who feel that they were kind of shafted by um traditional finance retail because again, retail and accredited investors have way different um they they have way they they have different privileges that are allotted to them in in the market. But I feel like this is a really good time for retail to really understand their power and to to practice self-custody so they don't feel like that they're getting left behind because at the end of the day traditional finance is a beast and they're going to do what they want to do when they want to do it. >> Yeah, I was going to ask you that because I mean you know the question is where's the trade? I mean if everything is going to go on chain are we looking at the wrong coin? Should investors be rotating out of old altcoins and into the protocols that Black Rockck you know can eventually use for its infrastructure? So, me personally, I do diversify my portfolio in different tiers, and I love my Bitcoin, but I also think it's really important to pay attention to the cryptos that, and again, not financial advice, guys, but to pay attention to the cryptos that are made in the USA, the cryptos that will or or have become cryptospot ETFs because there is liquidity flowing in. Retail's a little bit exhausted right now, especially with the current shape of the economy. I do feel that we are in a recession. So, it's not like we have additional capital to spend, especially when we're talking about investing. So paying attention to those type of cryptos that you know has kind of been approved by traditional finance I think might be a very interesting trade for people that um that are able to to pivot to that. >> Yeah. I mean we're we're we talked about it before coming to air. I can't believe it's already December. But as we head into it, I mean we got the Fed ending QT, we got Japan tightening and institutions widening their footprint into this market of yours. I mean, when you step back and look at these moving pieces together, what does the setup look like going into early 2026, are we talking still kind of a recovery phase or or does this still feel like the market needs to get into digest more volatility first? >> To be honest, it really depends. Um, there's a lot of announcements that President Trump likes to make regarding, you know, income taxes potentially going away because of tariffs. And you know, we did have the shutdown, which kind of caught a lot of people off guard, myself included, because I thought we were going to get a plethora of these cryptospot ETFs approved. I believe there was about 150 plus um pretty quickly because that's kind of what the CFTC and the SEC and all the governing bodies had talked about. So unless we have some sort of insane catalyst that happens that kind of restricts the market or just kind of shocks the system, I am anticipating a bullish quarter 1 of 2026 just as long as we don't have any [laughter] um anything too crazy happening. Yeah. Yeah. You brought up Trump and I have to ask you because I was reading the story this morning. Everyone, you know, says that they're getting rich off of this, but we saw American Bitcoin Corp., that's the the minor co-founded by Eric Trump lose more than half of its value in under 30 minutes. I mean, trading halts, there was panic. Uh, when a stock tied to a sitting president's family collapses that fast, what does that tell you about how fragile that speculative end of this market still is? >> I mean, this is the thing. Every every investment is speculative. Um, the term investment gets misconstrued by a lot of people. A lot of think, okay, I'm going to invest in a 401k and numbers going to go up. This is going to be good because it's it's controlled and we have oversight and we have protections and we have red tape. But that's not how it works. Investments are inherently risky. Now, do I like that um President Trump's family has kind of capitalized off of this off of crypto and Bitcoin the way they have? Not necessarily. But at the same time, we are operating in a true decentralized economy to where anybody can enter the markets um whether they want to. And we can we can argue about ethics with that all day long. Um but one thing I will say is I am thankful that crypto and Bitcoin is not banned in the United States of America. We still are allowed to participate. >> Yeah. What do you got to say for I mean we were talking what you you said that listen gold fans, Bitcoin fans, we're all on the same team. What do you got to say to the gold audience looking here? I mean, we do have portfolio managers coming out saying that they should carry 4% of Bitcoin as well as gold. >> I don't see why that would be an issue. If we're talking about um America being in a recession, if we're talking about um global uncertainty, economic uncertaint, geopolitical uncertainty, I think that hedging is always a good idea because you're not you don't have all of your eggs in one basket. If something fails, you always can look the other direction and that that scenario or that choice might work out for you. So, I think gold and Bitcoin are both really great assets to pay attention to during these times, and I think that they both can potentially perform incredibly well. >> I got to ask you, we had a couple of viewers write in just quickly, your opinion on Ethereum. I mean, is it just going to kind of sit here, go around the Bitcoin price? We're going to see some action. Any thoughts on those alts? >> I've been holding um Ethereum for quite some time. So, I am hoping for that that really, really big price pump. You know, we've got Mr. Tom Lee, and I wish he would act a little bit more like drummer Tommy Lee. Um >> [laughter] >> with the crypto spirit and get get that price up. Um, but at the same time, you know, Ethereum is as of right now, it is traditional finance's, you know, chosen one. You know, Black Rockck, for example, has their their Ethereum spot ETF and they recently applied for an Ethereum staking ETF, kind of similar to what Bitwise did with the Salana staking ETF. So, uh, right now, Ethereum is kind of the chosen one. That could potentially change in the future. Um, but it is definitely something that is that is pretty interesting and is very different from Bitcoin. It operates a lot differently and it's got but it does have some good competitors in the space. >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you think going into December here before I let you go in? I mean, what should what is our audience? What are they missing here? What what's something that you closely watch that most don't? >> Again, I think it's incredibly important that people do pay attention to what the Larrys are saying and that what traditional finance is doing, what JP Morgan is saying. I think it's incredibly important to look at all of these contradicting sentiments that we have so that people are able to self-educate themselves and make investments that work the best for best for themselves and families to improve their quality of life. But I really think that it is important to pay attention to a lot of the cryptos that are made in America and that will become um cryptospot ETFs or have been already. I think that those will probably be the winners, fingers crossed. Um and and those that are also creating partnerships with a lot of these traditional financial entities. Yeah, say what you will. 2025 has been a heck of a year for crypto and Bitcoin as a as a whole. All right. Well, we'll be watching the macro signals closely. It rem remains a key story here in the markets. Wendy O, great having you on the show. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. Navigating this volatility does take the right perspective. Now, a big thank you to our sponsor, Swan Bitcoin, your partner for generational wealth. You can get started at swan.com/kickco. Now, for Kicko News, I'm Jeremy Saffron. Stay with us. We got great content all week long, [music] so be sure to subscribe. We'll see you next time. [music] >> Swan is the premier Bitcoin wealth platform serving leaders of families and businesses. Swan's missiondriven team simplifies Bitcoin [music] investment, custody, and security, bringing you concierge service, [music] worldclass research, and exclusive events.