VIRTUAL KEYNOTE Q&A with Jason Paltrowitz, Executive Vice President at OTC Markets Group
Summary
OTC ID Launch: OTC ID was launched on July 1, 2025, replacing the Pink Current tier to ensure better regulatory compliance and accurate disclosure for investors.
Regulatory Compliance: The new system addresses gaps in the previous Pink Current market by ensuring companies meet SEC rules and provide accurate, timely information.
Market Structure: OTC Markets now consists of ID, QB, and QX tiers, each with specific requirements for disclosure and investor engagement, allowing companies to choose the most suitable option based on their compliance and growth stage.
Company Transition: Since the launch, over 1,240 securities have transitioned to OTC ID, with significant numbers also moving to the QB and QX markets, reflecting a commitment to enhanced disclosure.
Investment Opportunities: The OTC Markets provide a platform for both micro-cap companies and large global brands, offering liquidity and investor engagement comparable to some European exchanges.
Misconceptions: Common misconceptions about OTC Markets include the belief that they are primarily for low-quality stocks and lack liquidity, which the executive vice president refutes with evidence of significant trading volumes and high-quality listings.
Global Investor Interest: There is a growing interest from US investors in non-US equities, with substantial increases in trading volumes from Europe and Asia, highlighting the global reach of OTC Markets.
Transcript
Welcome everyone to the Planet Micro Cap Showcase Toronto in uh partnership with Micro Cap Club. I'm your host Robert Craft. Joining me right now is Jason Paltteritz. He's the executive vice president at OTC Markets Group. It's publicly traded company the symbols OTCM on the OTCQX. Jason, thank you for joining me today. How you doing, man? >> I'm doing all right. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the opportunity. >> Absolutely. It's great to have you and geez it's been a minute. So I I was uh when I saw that uh you got you were coming up to Toronto every day I was like oh this is we we got to jump on a call here and and do a fun recording just to I mean look a lot's been going on in OTC. Um you know we had Cromwell uh on speak at our Vegas event talking about OTC ID. It wasn't live yet >> live now. So >> live now. >> I I figured that would be a great place to start. So, you know, OTC ID went live July 1st, 2025, replacing the pink current tier. So, can you outline some of the key gaps it aimed to fix and what the baseline information now means in practical enforcable terms for issuers? Sorry, we're getting right into it. I I said I should ask you what you had for breakfast. I don't know. Maybe. Okay, fine. We'll go. Let's go. You know, >> go let's go. So, you know the you know, if you you guys remember, right, we had this market called Pink Current. And the word current was kind of a misnomer. It was very legacy um back to when you know we were starting the business and it was really any company that either was you know was an SEC filer or was listed on a on a foreign exchange. We just kind of called it current like if you're listed in Toronto you must be current. Um, but as the market evolved and regulation changed and you, you know, remember back a couple years ago to the changes to rule SEC 15C211, it was very clear that calling something current didn't mean it actually met all of the regulatory criteria. So in Canada, so we're talking about Canada for instance, you know, were you actually a foreign private issuer? You know, had somebody certified that you met SEC rule 12G32B as a foreign private issuer? And in many cases they didn't, but we were calling it current. Um, in many cases companies were were late in their filings and we were calling it current. Um, in many cases companies hadn't updated their profile and all of the information that was being sent out through us and again with 15C211 we kind of became the the clearing house for everything OTC traded. That information was wrong. So you could be a company that was making brake pads three years ago and now you're a Bitcoin treasury and nobody knew that, right? There was all sorts of things like that that occurred in the market. And so what we wanted to say was look from an investor uh protection perspective we need to create a market where the base level of information the least amount that should be expected um is created where an investor understands that what the company says their business is it is um that they're current in their in their regulatory obligations and that we're monitoring that um and that they're meeting again whether it's 12G32B or other regulatory guidelines lines that there's somebody standing there making sure that those things are being met and so investors understand that and so if you want to be investable and traded on our market then you have to do that base level of disclosure so that investors understand so yes we discontinued the the current the word current we launched OTC ID July 1 companies that wanted to make that disclosure available and to to meet those requirements um moved up and companies that and um kind of fell into that pink limited market. So now you really see you know across our market ID, QB and QX, we'll call those markets where the issuer is engaged. So an investor understands that there is an issuer putting information into the US ecosystem that's been vetted by us and given by them. um and anything outside of that, you know, investors need to understand that there's no guarantee that what they're seeing is timely, accurate or or up to-date. >> So my first question follow up with the the formulation the thought process behind OTC ID and forgive me if this sounds crude in how I ask, but is there is it is that tier do the companies pay for it or is it kind of the existing that you >> there there there is a minimal fee to be on the ID market. It's it's $7,500 a year. >> Got it. >> And in essence, that's really paying for the the team in DC, the compliance team, um that's doing the reviews and taking in the taking in the ingesting all the information, reviewing it, making sure it's accurate, it meets the standard, um and then is is putting it out. So, yeah, there there is a fee. Um but it's not anything outrageous. >> So, let me ask this. I mean, when you guys were discussing it, you know, even having, you know, pink current and converting it to ID and all that, what what stopped you guys from being like, you know what, let's just be a little bit more hardcore and for even these folks that are still pink current and and you know, making their their filings and whatnot, why not just give them the option of saying, "All right, well, you're going to now be either pink limited or you have to go to QB QX. That's it." You know, like what was what was the thought process there? Uh well, first off, there are a lot of companies that wouldn't qualify for QB or QX and so wanted to give those companies the opportunity to again demonstrate their compliance recognizing and especially in the in the micro cap nano cap space, right? That you are a good company. You're on the first rung of the ladder of growing up uh to be a public company. And so we didn't want to just throw the baby with the bathwater, right? So there are good companies that just don't meet those those uh requirements. Um the second thing is um we didn't want it to seem, you know, quite honestly like we were forcing you into something. Um we're making this change. Um you have the opportunity to to select the option that's right for you and also right for us, right? There are companies that maybe shouldn't be on QX even if they qualify. um you know, are you the right type of company for the right market and so we thought this was the the better way to go um you know is to have those options and to give you a place to go. So no matter what type of public company you are or how big or small you are, you actually do have a place to engage um and demonstrate your investability if you will based on the disclosure you're providing. >> Absolutely. No, I mean this has been kind of a companywide cleanup in some in a lot of respects, not just on Pinker, but I mean a few years ago when you you know, you had the the the expert market and doing everything there, but you know, just since launch and and what what would you what were some of the migration numbers on day one and 90 days post launch, like how many issuers successfully transition to OTC ID? How many upgraded to OTCQB or QX? And then how many failed to meet the minimum standards? Um so on day one for QID I think we launched with about 1,240 securities plus or minus one or two. Um so it was a good buildup to getting companies to understand and engage and provide the information and and do that level of disclosure. Um within that time kind of in the first half of the year prior to join prior to us doing ID there were about 196 companies that joined QX and QB to give you kind of a reference. So in the first half of the year about 200 QXQB companies um since launch we've probably or Q3 we've probably added just over a hundred companies to ID. Um and we've added 35 QX and 80 QB in in or QB in the third quarter. So those numbers continue to you know we're over we're about 350 companies on QXQB this year all in um and ID would be that number. So 13,400 um as of now. >> You ready for a dumb question for me? You know I always like to ask at least one to two dumb questions. So here comes a dumb one. >> I'm all in. So, you know, what have the conversations been like with maybe, you know, some of these some private companies that might are like, you know, going public earlier in my life cycle. This might be interesting. And is is OTC ID a good place for that potentially, you know, as like their first start or whatnot? I mean, love to hear your thoughts on that. >> Not a dumb question at all. you know, the there's so much noise out in the ecosystem now about public versus private markets. Um, and you know, we've we've known each other for a long time. So, you know, our our res on detra, if you will, like you from 10 years ago when I started presenting at your guys uh events was a being public shouldn't be painful, right? And so we've always wanted to create public markets that allow companies to to be public but at the right stage of of their growth trae trajectory. Um and we've always fought this this idea that you don't need to go to a US exchange right away as a micro cap or nano cap company to be public. Now you know the the conversation moves into private markets and companies saying well should I even go public? you know, maybe NASDAQ is or New York is too expensive and people are telling me I should be a stay private longer. And I would say that, you know, we first of all, we believe that the public markets are the best option. Um, and and the the information that's provided to investors through disclosure is much better for price discovery um is much better for investor engagement. Um, and so the conver to answer your question, the conversation is very much, you know, ID is a great place to start, right? If you're a public company, do you really want to start in the pink limited market where investors, you know, can't be confident in the level of disclosure that's there? So maybe that doesn't really help you if you're on that path of going up the up the chain. And so ID would be a great place to start to get your information out there. Get your disclosure out there. Meet the requirements of 15C211, the public quote eligibility rules. Give investors, your audience that wants to invest in these things or at least have the opportunity to invest in these things, the ability to have the information available to have market makers quoting these securities in a way that they can buy through their broker of choice. It's it's it to me, and I'm close to it, it's a no-brainer, right? If you're a sub 250 million market cap company coming to market, like that might be a good place to start. Absolutely. What would you say has been the biggest misconception about OTC ID or just any of the tiers, you know, at this point in 2025 after years of like we said, we've been doing this 10 years. like what what would you say is still maybe not necessarily still because you guys you you're very out there and you you try and you know demystify all the the you know micro cap and public company myths as much as possible. You really get after it for sure. But what would you say in 2025 is still just such a great misconception when it comes to not just OTC ID but also OTC QB QX OTC markets in general. Probably the greatest misperception is that this is still the market for, you know, what I'll call pump and dump stocks and that there's no liquidity here, right? Those would be the two biggest ones. Um, and as I look out at the types, you know, and and that I would say is wrong on a number of accounts. And I would say if you look at some of the issues that are percolating now with NASDAQ capital market and the types of securities that are listed there um and you know some of the issues that are in the paper. So this isn't anything new um that I would say a lot of the companies that have have gone public there wouldn't qualify for our our QX or QB markets. And so we are not the market now where you know bad companies go or or those types of companies go. It's actually the reverse. Um, and when you look at liquidity, you know, we we've traded god close to $600 billion in dollar volume over the first half of the year, close to that. um you know the dollar volume that crosses OTC markets would rival some of the exchanges in Europe you know makes us bigger than you know whether you look at some of the Athens or Madrid or or Italy um we're actually a force to be reckoned with reckoned with from a from a liquidity perspective and so both of those things to say that there's no liquidity here and to say that we're only a market for for you pump and dump or or or dark distressed companies. I think both of those things are misperceptions. Now, we're here talking micro caps and we continue to be fly the flag for for all of that, but we're also the market where you know the London Stock Exchange listed on QX this year or Bayer. So, we're also the market for some of the largest global brands in the world. And so as you think about who are OTC markets, if if Roshadus and Heineken are choosing us as their trading venue and we've got over a thousand Canadians that are choosing us as their US trading venue, we must be doing something right and we must have a large uh stable of quality companies and you know we're a a fully regulated electronic market with tons of volume and I don't know that that going to a US exchange then is the answer. If if the argument is that somehow we're lesser than uh on that perspective, >> what would you say has been I guess you'd say the biggest hindrance to capital markets formation right now in the US? Because like if you know the one thing that we talk about a lot amongst you know our our group of you know our group of investors and you know various folks in in microcast space is we're always just like you know it's it I don't know if it's service providers I'm pretty sure it is or if not like that are just making it seem just so difficult when you know there's you have OTC like you can direct list on there when like most folks are saying oh you got to go to NASDAQ you got to go to NYC. And it and it just seems that there's this this big gap in what companies should probably be doing versus what they're being told they should be doing and what ultimately, you know, enders ends up hurting the company in the long term. So, help me mind the gap a little bit as to what what we can be doing differently, you know, maybe not necessarily me, but what as a capital market, you know, the royal we as we say in, you know, the big Labowski um In a way, I think you've kind of answered the question in the question, right? Um, you know, we've come a long way and I'm very proud of the work that that my team and all the teams here and you know, we have a group of dedicated people that's really passionate about being public shouldn't be painful and the public markets are better than um the alternative and maybe we haven't done a good enough job, but we continue to fight that fight. Um but there is you know whether we like it or not there is uh there is a vested interest. Um there is certainly more money to be made doing a NASDAQ IPO than an OTC QX you know directtomarket transaction or or a private placement that slow POS into into the public market. Um and so yes it is the advisory right it's it's the sausage factory. It's you take the form, you white it out, you put a new name on it, you file it, you take your fees, and everybody's happy. But the company and so where we're falling down, I think, is from an education perspective is giving that CEO, CFO, board, um, you know, the the the alternative path and and explaining and highlighting the alternative path. And that's on us here and we continue to do that and that's on um we hope the reason we do things with you is is partnering with with with guys like you. Um but it really sometimes has to be the regulators and the media and you know we're starting to see it now. I mean honestly, you know, it also just it comes down to sometimes just a business decision where I would be thinking to myself, all right, you know, the rent bank, the you know, you're on the legal, the accounting side, why wouldn't you be guiding some of these companies that clearly shouldn't be going on NASDAQ to start or NYC and just be like, "Hey, look, you know, yeah, it's we're not making as much and getting you on, you know, getting you to be a public company, you know, going on QB or QX, but you're at least earning that trust even harder because they're looking out for you where you're at in your life cycle where they become more of a lifetime client versus, you know, some of these that are probably like, "All right, well, we just got completely, you know, bamboozled and into doing all these different things and okay, sure, they maybe made a lot more just on that, you know, on our transaction here, but we'll never be working with them again because we just got such terrible advice and now here we are." You know, I just it doesn't make sense to me from even just a business decision. I don't disagree with you and I don't know the answer. >> Right. Like >> like I don't know the answer. Um you you are right. you know there's there's also the flip side of it and look I think when we have conversations with seuite executives um that perhaps have a little more capital markets experience that are a little more sophisticated that maybe aren't you know founders um you know to my earlier point that aren't like trying to figure out how to make payroll next month right when when there's a little more opportunity to have a think um then you tend to see companies come to the right decision. I mean, we're having a record year, so it's not as if we're not winning things. Um, you know, there's also the ego part of it. You know, you I've been doing this for a long time. And, you know, there is always the conversation where somebody will look at you and say, you know what, you're absolutely right, but I've always wanted to have my face on the screen in Times Square. All right. Well, fair enough. At least you're being honest. Um, you need to understand >> they haven't been your office yet. All right. I've been by ring the bell on the New York. I I understand the draw of that. Sure. Right. I understand the allure of that. And so, >> you know, it is what it is. Um, I think you know where it's more incumbent upon us is to educate the investment community, the investor community that simply being on an exchange is no longer, you know, a stamp of quality that it was historic. >> May I May I push back on that? I think the investor community knows that. At least the ones that I've talked to, I think they're I think they're they're they're very well, at least within my core group, like we kind of know, you know, like no, like we don't, you know, look what's great about the you know, the way that, you know, at least on the micro cap investing community side is is evolving. They look we look for quality everywhere. You know, we don't we don't care where, you know, is listed. You know, we don't just go right to NASDAQ and be like, "All right, it's on NASDAQ. It must be good. We have to let's comb through and look our criteria." like no it's they're going on OTC they're going on you know TSX CSC SIBO everything in Europe you know like it it really doesn't matter I think what's been the biggest misnomer is when CEOs are being told like well there you know uh no investor will buy you know there's no liquidity you know it's like well guess what if you're going to be going public as a micro cap like why should you care right now >> you shouldn't you know and so sorry I'm getting on a little soap I'm supposed to be interviewing you. This is I got I got I got a >> It's good. It's good for people to see we're both passionate. >> We're having a We're having a mutual therapy session here for for Micro Cap Capital Markets. But I mean, uh, real quick, you know what? I also think it's important for folks to better understand too now that we have OTC ID in place, you know, taking two steps back to take a few steps forward. you know, give us the issuer, disclosure, and compliance breakdown for all three just so that it's absolutely clear of like, okay, this is QX, this is QB, OTC ID from just issuer disclosure and compliance perspective. >> Um, well, I'll start with QX. So, that's the most important thing like QX, no penny stocks, right? That's the that was always the basis of QX is that you cannot be a penny stock on QX and that's the SEC definition of a penny stock. Um so those companies are meeting a higher level of uh financial criteria. Uh there's corporate governance written into the rules around um all sorts of things to put it at a at a higher level right independent audit committees and the things that you would think about from a you know exchange equivalent right there. So companies that are have a higher uh market cap, companies that have a higher free float requirement, companies that have a higher minimum shareholder requirement, uh from an international perspective, they have to be listed on a qualified foreign exchange. They have to meet 12G32B. Um and they have to do all of those things, but first and foremost, they would not be considered a penny stock. So no penny stocks, no bankruptcies, no shells, nothing like that can be on on the QX market. QB is our venture market. So, not a financial disclosure market so much as it is or not a financial criteria market so much as it is a disclosure requirement. Um, and that is a venture market, right? So, you're talking about a penny bid um requirement, but you're meeting the disclosure standards and you're doing things um where you want to be outward facing from an investor relations perspective. ID kind of falls a little bit in the middle of that because you have companies that want to be able to meet the quote eligibility requirements of 15C211, but that maybe aren't interested in doing any kind of investor relations or investor outreach um to grow their business. They just want to remain tradable and compliant within those those two rules 15 C211 and and 12G32B. So, it's just giving information and not doing anything over and above to try to and I don't want to use the word promote because that's not right, but from an investor relations perspective to kind of go out and and grow the company's shareholder base. And those would be kind of the three the three differences. So, you'll have C and then of course within that there are companies that aren't maybe venture companies, so they wouldn't want to go to QB but don't meet the requirements of QX. So, they would start in ID and then go to QX. Um, and kind of there's a whole bunch of different things with within that that you would that you would find. >> Absolutely. So, I mean, we we've covered kind of a lot today, you know, already in a big catchup. I mean uh is there anything in particular that you think you know has been going on either at OTC from a macro perspective having to do that affects OTC headwinds tailwind anything that we're missing that you want to maybe cover here today for the for the keynote that folks should really understand about OTC maybe moving forward for the rest of 25 going into 26 >> well I I'll end with kind of we're talking about ID and all these changes we've made and it's interesting to see how you know the evolution in the last 10 years has really been about disclosure and giving investors the information and then investors can make their decisions. And what we found is investors are making their decisions based on the changes we're making. And so there are fewer there there's more and more dollar volume going to the places where the disclosure is provided and less and less going to the places where perhaps the disclosure can't be counted upon. And so I think that's interesting to see as we've evolved. You know, remember 20 it wasn't that long ago where everything was just pink sheets and you had all sorts of stuff. Seeing how the volume is moving where QX companies tend to trade better than you know QB companies maybe and then now we've added ID ID companies are trading better than limited companies. And so you're seeing the the attention go to to where where the disclosure is. And that's that's nice to see because for us that kind of shows that yeah, maybe we were right in in doing some of this stuff. investors want to see this level of of transparency and disclosure. Um, for us, what's really driving the business this year has been a significant increase in US investor interest in non US equities. Um, and you know, if you look at our business broadly, you know, vast majority of our business is non US, right? Whether it's Canada or or Europe or Asia. And so to see the significant dollar volume growth, I think we were up close to 60% yearonear in in Europe, 70 in Asia, something like that. Um, even in Canada were up 25%. I think US investors are seeing that a, you know, the S&P is first of all highly concentrated. So 40% of the S&P is in the top 10 stocks and all of those stocks are technology, I think, but one. Um, and so seeing opportunity outside of the US has really helped drive the business for us as a market that has, you know, some of the greatest Canadian issuers or European issuers or Asian issuers. Um, and giving us investors the opportunity to tap into that has been has been interesting. In fact, today we're hosting a Nordic day. Uh so we have 10, you know, micro cap Nordic companies in presenting to us investors and investors really want to see see that type of stuff. Um not just the the US tech bubbly stuff that we hear about in the in the paper all the time. >> I'm I'm smirking because I think the last four episodes I've done on the podcast have been all about, you know, European micro caps. So and they're with US investors that are looking there. So it's >> so you know the QB market if you look at our QB market the number of companies from from AIM >> or from TSXV or from CSSE or from Aquis um next Wednesday we're hosting a CSSE Aquis event here in our offices. Um there's a lot of interest from investors to to meet those companies. Um you know that's that's what's driving the business for the rest of the year and that's what we'll be focusing on. >> Very cool. Well, Jason, with that, where can our audience go and find more information about OTC Markets? >> otcarkets.com. >> Very cool. Well, Jason, always a pleasure. >> Yep. Absolutely. Well, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a lot of fun and I look forward to our next conversation >> and I'll see you in Canada in a couple weeks. >> Yes, you will. I'll see you soon. All righty. See you later.
VIRTUAL KEYNOTE Q&A with Jason Paltrowitz, Executive Vice President at OTC Markets Group
Summary
Transcript
Welcome everyone to the Planet Micro Cap Showcase Toronto in uh partnership with Micro Cap Club. I'm your host Robert Craft. Joining me right now is Jason Paltteritz. He's the executive vice president at OTC Markets Group. It's publicly traded company the symbols OTCM on the OTCQX. Jason, thank you for joining me today. How you doing, man? >> I'm doing all right. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the opportunity. >> Absolutely. It's great to have you and geez it's been a minute. So I I was uh when I saw that uh you got you were coming up to Toronto every day I was like oh this is we we got to jump on a call here and and do a fun recording just to I mean look a lot's been going on in OTC. Um you know we had Cromwell uh on speak at our Vegas event talking about OTC ID. It wasn't live yet >> live now. So >> live now. >> I I figured that would be a great place to start. So, you know, OTC ID went live July 1st, 2025, replacing the pink current tier. So, can you outline some of the key gaps it aimed to fix and what the baseline information now means in practical enforcable terms for issuers? Sorry, we're getting right into it. I I said I should ask you what you had for breakfast. I don't know. Maybe. Okay, fine. We'll go. Let's go. You know, >> go let's go. So, you know the you know, if you you guys remember, right, we had this market called Pink Current. And the word current was kind of a misnomer. It was very legacy um back to when you know we were starting the business and it was really any company that either was you know was an SEC filer or was listed on a on a foreign exchange. We just kind of called it current like if you're listed in Toronto you must be current. Um, but as the market evolved and regulation changed and you, you know, remember back a couple years ago to the changes to rule SEC 15C211, it was very clear that calling something current didn't mean it actually met all of the regulatory criteria. So in Canada, so we're talking about Canada for instance, you know, were you actually a foreign private issuer? You know, had somebody certified that you met SEC rule 12G32B as a foreign private issuer? And in many cases they didn't, but we were calling it current. Um, in many cases companies were were late in their filings and we were calling it current. Um, in many cases companies hadn't updated their profile and all of the information that was being sent out through us and again with 15C211 we kind of became the the clearing house for everything OTC traded. That information was wrong. So you could be a company that was making brake pads three years ago and now you're a Bitcoin treasury and nobody knew that, right? There was all sorts of things like that that occurred in the market. And so what we wanted to say was look from an investor uh protection perspective we need to create a market where the base level of information the least amount that should be expected um is created where an investor understands that what the company says their business is it is um that they're current in their in their regulatory obligations and that we're monitoring that um and that they're meeting again whether it's 12G32B or other regulatory guidelines lines that there's somebody standing there making sure that those things are being met and so investors understand that and so if you want to be investable and traded on our market then you have to do that base level of disclosure so that investors understand so yes we discontinued the the current the word current we launched OTC ID July 1 companies that wanted to make that disclosure available and to to meet those requirements um moved up and companies that and um kind of fell into that pink limited market. So now you really see you know across our market ID, QB and QX, we'll call those markets where the issuer is engaged. So an investor understands that there is an issuer putting information into the US ecosystem that's been vetted by us and given by them. um and anything outside of that, you know, investors need to understand that there's no guarantee that what they're seeing is timely, accurate or or up to-date. >> So my first question follow up with the the formulation the thought process behind OTC ID and forgive me if this sounds crude in how I ask, but is there is it is that tier do the companies pay for it or is it kind of the existing that you >> there there there is a minimal fee to be on the ID market. It's it's $7,500 a year. >> Got it. >> And in essence, that's really paying for the the team in DC, the compliance team, um that's doing the reviews and taking in the taking in the ingesting all the information, reviewing it, making sure it's accurate, it meets the standard, um and then is is putting it out. So, yeah, there there is a fee. Um but it's not anything outrageous. >> So, let me ask this. I mean, when you guys were discussing it, you know, even having, you know, pink current and converting it to ID and all that, what what stopped you guys from being like, you know what, let's just be a little bit more hardcore and for even these folks that are still pink current and and you know, making their their filings and whatnot, why not just give them the option of saying, "All right, well, you're going to now be either pink limited or you have to go to QB QX. That's it." You know, like what was what was the thought process there? Uh well, first off, there are a lot of companies that wouldn't qualify for QB or QX and so wanted to give those companies the opportunity to again demonstrate their compliance recognizing and especially in the in the micro cap nano cap space, right? That you are a good company. You're on the first rung of the ladder of growing up uh to be a public company. And so we didn't want to just throw the baby with the bathwater, right? So there are good companies that just don't meet those those uh requirements. Um the second thing is um we didn't want it to seem, you know, quite honestly like we were forcing you into something. Um we're making this change. Um you have the opportunity to to select the option that's right for you and also right for us, right? There are companies that maybe shouldn't be on QX even if they qualify. um you know, are you the right type of company for the right market and so we thought this was the the better way to go um you know is to have those options and to give you a place to go. So no matter what type of public company you are or how big or small you are, you actually do have a place to engage um and demonstrate your investability if you will based on the disclosure you're providing. >> Absolutely. No, I mean this has been kind of a companywide cleanup in some in a lot of respects, not just on Pinker, but I mean a few years ago when you you know, you had the the the expert market and doing everything there, but you know, just since launch and and what what would you what were some of the migration numbers on day one and 90 days post launch, like how many issuers successfully transition to OTC ID? How many upgraded to OTCQB or QX? And then how many failed to meet the minimum standards? Um so on day one for QID I think we launched with about 1,240 securities plus or minus one or two. Um so it was a good buildup to getting companies to understand and engage and provide the information and and do that level of disclosure. Um within that time kind of in the first half of the year prior to join prior to us doing ID there were about 196 companies that joined QX and QB to give you kind of a reference. So in the first half of the year about 200 QXQB companies um since launch we've probably or Q3 we've probably added just over a hundred companies to ID. Um and we've added 35 QX and 80 QB in in or QB in the third quarter. So those numbers continue to you know we're over we're about 350 companies on QXQB this year all in um and ID would be that number. So 13,400 um as of now. >> You ready for a dumb question for me? You know I always like to ask at least one to two dumb questions. So here comes a dumb one. >> I'm all in. So, you know, what have the conversations been like with maybe, you know, some of these some private companies that might are like, you know, going public earlier in my life cycle. This might be interesting. And is is OTC ID a good place for that potentially, you know, as like their first start or whatnot? I mean, love to hear your thoughts on that. >> Not a dumb question at all. you know, the there's so much noise out in the ecosystem now about public versus private markets. Um, and you know, we've we've known each other for a long time. So, you know, our our res on detra, if you will, like you from 10 years ago when I started presenting at your guys uh events was a being public shouldn't be painful, right? And so we've always wanted to create public markets that allow companies to to be public but at the right stage of of their growth trae trajectory. Um and we've always fought this this idea that you don't need to go to a US exchange right away as a micro cap or nano cap company to be public. Now you know the the conversation moves into private markets and companies saying well should I even go public? you know, maybe NASDAQ is or New York is too expensive and people are telling me I should be a stay private longer. And I would say that, you know, we first of all, we believe that the public markets are the best option. Um, and and the the information that's provided to investors through disclosure is much better for price discovery um is much better for investor engagement. Um, and so the conver to answer your question, the conversation is very much, you know, ID is a great place to start, right? If you're a public company, do you really want to start in the pink limited market where investors, you know, can't be confident in the level of disclosure that's there? So maybe that doesn't really help you if you're on that path of going up the up the chain. And so ID would be a great place to start to get your information out there. Get your disclosure out there. Meet the requirements of 15C211, the public quote eligibility rules. Give investors, your audience that wants to invest in these things or at least have the opportunity to invest in these things, the ability to have the information available to have market makers quoting these securities in a way that they can buy through their broker of choice. It's it's it to me, and I'm close to it, it's a no-brainer, right? If you're a sub 250 million market cap company coming to market, like that might be a good place to start. Absolutely. What would you say has been the biggest misconception about OTC ID or just any of the tiers, you know, at this point in 2025 after years of like we said, we've been doing this 10 years. like what what would you say is still maybe not necessarily still because you guys you you're very out there and you you try and you know demystify all the the you know micro cap and public company myths as much as possible. You really get after it for sure. But what would you say in 2025 is still just such a great misconception when it comes to not just OTC ID but also OTC QB QX OTC markets in general. Probably the greatest misperception is that this is still the market for, you know, what I'll call pump and dump stocks and that there's no liquidity here, right? Those would be the two biggest ones. Um, and as I look out at the types, you know, and and that I would say is wrong on a number of accounts. And I would say if you look at some of the issues that are percolating now with NASDAQ capital market and the types of securities that are listed there um and you know some of the issues that are in the paper. So this isn't anything new um that I would say a lot of the companies that have have gone public there wouldn't qualify for our our QX or QB markets. And so we are not the market now where you know bad companies go or or those types of companies go. It's actually the reverse. Um, and when you look at liquidity, you know, we we've traded god close to $600 billion in dollar volume over the first half of the year, close to that. um you know the dollar volume that crosses OTC markets would rival some of the exchanges in Europe you know makes us bigger than you know whether you look at some of the Athens or Madrid or or Italy um we're actually a force to be reckoned with reckoned with from a from a liquidity perspective and so both of those things to say that there's no liquidity here and to say that we're only a market for for you pump and dump or or or dark distressed companies. I think both of those things are misperceptions. Now, we're here talking micro caps and we continue to be fly the flag for for all of that, but we're also the market where you know the London Stock Exchange listed on QX this year or Bayer. So, we're also the market for some of the largest global brands in the world. And so as you think about who are OTC markets, if if Roshadus and Heineken are choosing us as their trading venue and we've got over a thousand Canadians that are choosing us as their US trading venue, we must be doing something right and we must have a large uh stable of quality companies and you know we're a a fully regulated electronic market with tons of volume and I don't know that that going to a US exchange then is the answer. If if the argument is that somehow we're lesser than uh on that perspective, >> what would you say has been I guess you'd say the biggest hindrance to capital markets formation right now in the US? Because like if you know the one thing that we talk about a lot amongst you know our our group of you know our group of investors and you know various folks in in microcast space is we're always just like you know it's it I don't know if it's service providers I'm pretty sure it is or if not like that are just making it seem just so difficult when you know there's you have OTC like you can direct list on there when like most folks are saying oh you got to go to NASDAQ you got to go to NYC. And it and it just seems that there's this this big gap in what companies should probably be doing versus what they're being told they should be doing and what ultimately, you know, enders ends up hurting the company in the long term. So, help me mind the gap a little bit as to what what we can be doing differently, you know, maybe not necessarily me, but what as a capital market, you know, the royal we as we say in, you know, the big Labowski um In a way, I think you've kind of answered the question in the question, right? Um, you know, we've come a long way and I'm very proud of the work that that my team and all the teams here and you know, we have a group of dedicated people that's really passionate about being public shouldn't be painful and the public markets are better than um the alternative and maybe we haven't done a good enough job, but we continue to fight that fight. Um but there is you know whether we like it or not there is uh there is a vested interest. Um there is certainly more money to be made doing a NASDAQ IPO than an OTC QX you know directtomarket transaction or or a private placement that slow POS into into the public market. Um and so yes it is the advisory right it's it's the sausage factory. It's you take the form, you white it out, you put a new name on it, you file it, you take your fees, and everybody's happy. But the company and so where we're falling down, I think, is from an education perspective is giving that CEO, CFO, board, um, you know, the the the alternative path and and explaining and highlighting the alternative path. And that's on us here and we continue to do that and that's on um we hope the reason we do things with you is is partnering with with with guys like you. Um but it really sometimes has to be the regulators and the media and you know we're starting to see it now. I mean honestly, you know, it also just it comes down to sometimes just a business decision where I would be thinking to myself, all right, you know, the rent bank, the you know, you're on the legal, the accounting side, why wouldn't you be guiding some of these companies that clearly shouldn't be going on NASDAQ to start or NYC and just be like, "Hey, look, you know, yeah, it's we're not making as much and getting you on, you know, getting you to be a public company, you know, going on QB or QX, but you're at least earning that trust even harder because they're looking out for you where you're at in your life cycle where they become more of a lifetime client versus, you know, some of these that are probably like, "All right, well, we just got completely, you know, bamboozled and into doing all these different things and okay, sure, they maybe made a lot more just on that, you know, on our transaction here, but we'll never be working with them again because we just got such terrible advice and now here we are." You know, I just it doesn't make sense to me from even just a business decision. I don't disagree with you and I don't know the answer. >> Right. Like >> like I don't know the answer. Um you you are right. you know there's there's also the flip side of it and look I think when we have conversations with seuite executives um that perhaps have a little more capital markets experience that are a little more sophisticated that maybe aren't you know founders um you know to my earlier point that aren't like trying to figure out how to make payroll next month right when when there's a little more opportunity to have a think um then you tend to see companies come to the right decision. I mean, we're having a record year, so it's not as if we're not winning things. Um, you know, there's also the ego part of it. You know, you I've been doing this for a long time. And, you know, there is always the conversation where somebody will look at you and say, you know what, you're absolutely right, but I've always wanted to have my face on the screen in Times Square. All right. Well, fair enough. At least you're being honest. Um, you need to understand >> they haven't been your office yet. All right. I've been by ring the bell on the New York. I I understand the draw of that. Sure. Right. I understand the allure of that. And so, >> you know, it is what it is. Um, I think you know where it's more incumbent upon us is to educate the investment community, the investor community that simply being on an exchange is no longer, you know, a stamp of quality that it was historic. >> May I May I push back on that? I think the investor community knows that. At least the ones that I've talked to, I think they're I think they're they're they're very well, at least within my core group, like we kind of know, you know, like no, like we don't, you know, look what's great about the you know, the way that, you know, at least on the micro cap investing community side is is evolving. They look we look for quality everywhere. You know, we don't we don't care where, you know, is listed. You know, we don't just go right to NASDAQ and be like, "All right, it's on NASDAQ. It must be good. We have to let's comb through and look our criteria." like no it's they're going on OTC they're going on you know TSX CSC SIBO everything in Europe you know like it it really doesn't matter I think what's been the biggest misnomer is when CEOs are being told like well there you know uh no investor will buy you know there's no liquidity you know it's like well guess what if you're going to be going public as a micro cap like why should you care right now >> you shouldn't you know and so sorry I'm getting on a little soap I'm supposed to be interviewing you. This is I got I got I got a >> It's good. It's good for people to see we're both passionate. >> We're having a We're having a mutual therapy session here for for Micro Cap Capital Markets. But I mean, uh, real quick, you know what? I also think it's important for folks to better understand too now that we have OTC ID in place, you know, taking two steps back to take a few steps forward. you know, give us the issuer, disclosure, and compliance breakdown for all three just so that it's absolutely clear of like, okay, this is QX, this is QB, OTC ID from just issuer disclosure and compliance perspective. >> Um, well, I'll start with QX. So, that's the most important thing like QX, no penny stocks, right? That's the that was always the basis of QX is that you cannot be a penny stock on QX and that's the SEC definition of a penny stock. Um so those companies are meeting a higher level of uh financial criteria. Uh there's corporate governance written into the rules around um all sorts of things to put it at a at a higher level right independent audit committees and the things that you would think about from a you know exchange equivalent right there. So companies that are have a higher uh market cap, companies that have a higher free float requirement, companies that have a higher minimum shareholder requirement, uh from an international perspective, they have to be listed on a qualified foreign exchange. They have to meet 12G32B. Um and they have to do all of those things, but first and foremost, they would not be considered a penny stock. So no penny stocks, no bankruptcies, no shells, nothing like that can be on on the QX market. QB is our venture market. So, not a financial disclosure market so much as it is or not a financial criteria market so much as it is a disclosure requirement. Um, and that is a venture market, right? So, you're talking about a penny bid um requirement, but you're meeting the disclosure standards and you're doing things um where you want to be outward facing from an investor relations perspective. ID kind of falls a little bit in the middle of that because you have companies that want to be able to meet the quote eligibility requirements of 15C211, but that maybe aren't interested in doing any kind of investor relations or investor outreach um to grow their business. They just want to remain tradable and compliant within those those two rules 15 C211 and and 12G32B. So, it's just giving information and not doing anything over and above to try to and I don't want to use the word promote because that's not right, but from an investor relations perspective to kind of go out and and grow the company's shareholder base. And those would be kind of the three the three differences. So, you'll have C and then of course within that there are companies that aren't maybe venture companies, so they wouldn't want to go to QB but don't meet the requirements of QX. So, they would start in ID and then go to QX. Um, and kind of there's a whole bunch of different things with within that that you would that you would find. >> Absolutely. So, I mean, we we've covered kind of a lot today, you know, already in a big catchup. I mean uh is there anything in particular that you think you know has been going on either at OTC from a macro perspective having to do that affects OTC headwinds tailwind anything that we're missing that you want to maybe cover here today for the for the keynote that folks should really understand about OTC maybe moving forward for the rest of 25 going into 26 >> well I I'll end with kind of we're talking about ID and all these changes we've made and it's interesting to see how you know the evolution in the last 10 years has really been about disclosure and giving investors the information and then investors can make their decisions. And what we found is investors are making their decisions based on the changes we're making. And so there are fewer there there's more and more dollar volume going to the places where the disclosure is provided and less and less going to the places where perhaps the disclosure can't be counted upon. And so I think that's interesting to see as we've evolved. You know, remember 20 it wasn't that long ago where everything was just pink sheets and you had all sorts of stuff. Seeing how the volume is moving where QX companies tend to trade better than you know QB companies maybe and then now we've added ID ID companies are trading better than limited companies. And so you're seeing the the attention go to to where where the disclosure is. And that's that's nice to see because for us that kind of shows that yeah, maybe we were right in in doing some of this stuff. investors want to see this level of of transparency and disclosure. Um, for us, what's really driving the business this year has been a significant increase in US investor interest in non US equities. Um, and you know, if you look at our business broadly, you know, vast majority of our business is non US, right? Whether it's Canada or or Europe or Asia. And so to see the significant dollar volume growth, I think we were up close to 60% yearonear in in Europe, 70 in Asia, something like that. Um, even in Canada were up 25%. I think US investors are seeing that a, you know, the S&P is first of all highly concentrated. So 40% of the S&P is in the top 10 stocks and all of those stocks are technology, I think, but one. Um, and so seeing opportunity outside of the US has really helped drive the business for us as a market that has, you know, some of the greatest Canadian issuers or European issuers or Asian issuers. Um, and giving us investors the opportunity to tap into that has been has been interesting. In fact, today we're hosting a Nordic day. Uh so we have 10, you know, micro cap Nordic companies in presenting to us investors and investors really want to see see that type of stuff. Um not just the the US tech bubbly stuff that we hear about in the in the paper all the time. >> I'm I'm smirking because I think the last four episodes I've done on the podcast have been all about, you know, European micro caps. So and they're with US investors that are looking there. So it's >> so you know the QB market if you look at our QB market the number of companies from from AIM >> or from TSXV or from CSSE or from Aquis um next Wednesday we're hosting a CSSE Aquis event here in our offices. Um there's a lot of interest from investors to to meet those companies. Um you know that's that's what's driving the business for the rest of the year and that's what we'll be focusing on. >> Very cool. Well, Jason, with that, where can our audience go and find more information about OTC Markets? >> otcarkets.com. >> Very cool. Well, Jason, always a pleasure. >> Yep. Absolutely. Well, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a lot of fun and I look forward to our next conversation >> and I'll see you in Canada in a couple weeks. >> Yes, you will. I'll see you soon. All righty. See you later.