Market Outlook: Major financial institutions like Goldman Sachs and City Bank are revising their copper projections, forecasting a price increase due to supply disruptions and increased demand.
Supply Challenges: Significant supply issues have arisen from major mines facing operational problems, leading to a predicted copper deficit sooner than expected.
Demand Drivers: The demand for copper is heavily driven by electrification, AI, and data centers, which are expected to consume a larger portion of the supply.
Deglobalization Impact: The trend of deglobalization is leading countries to secure their copper supply, creating a bullish environment for copper equities as nations prioritize resource security.
Company Spotlight: Ian Harris's Copper Giant Resources is strategically positioned to capitalize on these trends, with a strong team and promising project developments in Colombia.
Project Development: Copper Giant's Makoa project boasts significant resources and favorable infrastructure, with ongoing efforts to expand its resource base and improve metallurgical processes.
Strategic Partnerships: The company benefits from partnerships with notable industry figures and investors, enhancing its potential to advance its projects and attract further investment.
Future Prospects: Copper Giant is focused on advancing towards a Preliminary Economic Assessment (PEA) and aims to leverage upcoming market opportunities to enhance its valuation.
Transcript
Why are Goldman Sachs, City Bank, and many other major financial institutions revising their copper projections and increasing their price forecasts, not for 10 years down the road, but for next year, there's been some seismic shifts in the copper sector, and today we jump into all of those. My guest is Ian Harris, who's a veteran entrepreneur and mining engineer in the copper sector. He's built an amazing team around his company, including some of the biggest personalities in the mining sector. Former CEO of Cobra Panama, Ernie Mast, and one of the most legendary mining investors and entrepreneurs, Frank Gustra, as his capital partner, and Ian's team has been consistently putting out some of the best copper drill results in the industry over the last year. Today we get into the supply side, the demand side, what's changed, why these banks are adjusting their forecasts, and what we can expect from copper in the year ahead. This is the J Martin show where we dissect the greatest minds in geopolitics and finance so we can better understand the world. Here is Ian Harris. Enjoy. This is J Martin. All right, here I am with Ian Harris. Ian, it's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on today. always a pleasure to have our conversations although I feel like our past conversations are what's happening right in front of us and now we get to it's like more live action uh what's going on in in the in the planet and especially copper equities and copper commodity space so look forward to a fun discussion today yeah awesome yeah ton tons's happening so uh you're right it's it's funny reflecting on previous conversations and all of these forecasts that seemed audacious you know 6 months ago ago, 12 months ago, and and now we're kind of living in that reality. And uh major news in the copper sector just over the last couple weeks, you know, and today is no exception. But uh what a just like headline rich sector to be in. We spent a lot of time talking about demand and I want to get into demand with you today. But before that, I want to talk about some supply developments because in the last couple weeks, there's been some major banks, City Bank, Goldman Sachs revising their near-term, their 2026 copper outlook to put the world in a copper deficit a lot sooner than they thought and they're upgrading their copper price forecast um in relation to that. Now, my assumption is that that's in response to a couple major mines running into big problems, right? Grassburg here in Indonesia where I'm at obviously that's uh Freeport McMoran just yeah horrible situation but uh you know that's that's um second largest copper producer in the world uh and then tech revising their uh forecast revising them down both in their Chile mine and their uh Canadian project the Highland Valley. So what's your take on supply right now Ian? Like what are you paying attention to and and how are you interpreting all this? So I look at both supply and demand, right? Because it seems that the world has a short-term focus because we really focus on copper price as supposed to be the litmus test for how things are going and should translate right into equities, right? So I obviously watch that because it it uh it normally extremely bullish for the equities even though I think the case today is extremely bullish today um because these things don't play out over weeks even though the the market tends to have knee-jerk reactions over a very short period of time. So it's a combination of supply and we you know when you have tightness in the copper market it's it's not the same as in other spaces right because it's applies to so much of the world's uh economy today right still 90% 95% of all copper still goes into electrification right so you know we're talking about energy transition and uh you know sustainable energy and now we're talking AI and we're not talking data data centers and there is obviously an expectation that those sectors will consume a much larger uh portion of overall supply of copper but when you don't have enough copper that means people don't get lights right it means that people don't get the energy that they need to to advance their economies so a shortness in copper creates a more desperate you know more a desperate type reaction to the lack um and so that's why it plays out so it was already explainably tight we've I think even had conversations um about how smelters there was so much tightness in the market that smelters were paying to process concentrates, right? So normally you'd send your concentrate and you get paid for it. There was so much tightness that smelters were paying mines to process their concentrates. That's how much tightness that there was already in the market. So having some big big disruptions in supply obviously makes people change. uh it doesn't take much to switch something over because they were already anticipating extreme tightness already. Uh and it was just a question when is copper going to go into deficit? Um because there's just not enough new projects coming online. They're just they he can't the cupboard is bare has been the expression. I even like Freeland uh who you know his his post all week on Twitter is I told you so. Look at look what I said two years ago. What I told you is happening right in front of us. it's really playing out right now. Uh, of course, nobody can predict um when a tragedy happens like happened at at at Grassburg and it's really going to uh you know uh create create issues but any sort of disruption um but behind the scenes there there's in my opinion right there's a much bigger disruption already going on that is extremely bullish for the underlying assets and it's called the delobalization right the undoing of globalization that's going on right Now the fight um that we see most in the in the in the in the Twitter space right in the what is it truth space uh is US versus China but a lot of other countries are also saying what are we going to do about making sure we're securing our copper supply and that is the real real real background that's going on that I think is going to create the is the most bullish thing that could possibly happen for copper equities. Could could I ask you to add some context to that because I I 100% agree with you and I I talk about this all the time on my show and in my newsletter is that this new era of global trade, you know, whatever it is, I think it's very unclear, but the old era is definitely over. That much is clear. The era of globalization that I grew up in, that's done. Whatever happens next, way less certain for me. And I can, you know, get into the details about why that's such a bull case for commodities in general, but I'd love like what's your add some context to that. Why is the delobalization trend bullish for raw material prices and and copper specifically? Ian, I think it's a combination of of several things. I'm going to try and explain it the way I see it um in in the simplest way possible. Right? If we are in a perfect system, I'm producing oranges and you're producing oranges. is that everybody's producing oranges and they just go into this big bucket and then if anybody needs oranges, we produce 10 oranges and they want 10 oranges and it's great, right? But then all of a sudden they go, you know what, your economy is going to be based on oranges and there's not enough new oranges, right? And so people start, what happened to toilet paper prices when people were worried that there wouldn't be able to get toilet paper, right? That is what's going to happen when people go for the grab and hold their own. It's not about how much toilet paper you're necessarily using. It's how much you have in controlling that stock. Right? So, put in another set of context too is there is a term out there that I love because I I believe it's at least partially correct that copper is the new oil. And what does that mean? Why is it the new oil? uh and it's because the majority of the world's economies over the last century have been based on oil right it's the basis for our energy plastics so many so and and the world even petro dollars right the control of United States dollar as a reserve currency has been based on oil now I don't know if it's going to be a direct just go to copper but at least it's telling you that the new world economy is more and more based on electricity um whether it's data centers or AI or energy transition or the de decarbonization etc etc um right that that copper has a much more larger influence on the world's economy it's already called Dr. copper for a reason uh but it's so important right so as you break up a perfect system where globalization is about you know focusing on what you do so if you build electric motors I don't care where uh the copper wire comes from that I use to build my copper and then if you do copper wire I don't care where the copper comes from right it's just I work on making copper wire and I know there will always market will work it out but the second that that trend goes to panic which is looks like what were happening everybody wants to secure their supply. So it means what does it mean if you have if you're producing oranges or you're producing you know uh oranges that people want to secure that now everybody's grabbed it. What happens to somebody who's been left out? They need to find a new producer of oranges in this case copper. So that is why when the system breaks up, it's it's removing the efficiency of the system, right? It's now you need more supply in order to generate the same uh the the same um effect, right? Because people are hoarding it, right? And so that is why it's so bullish for the assets because they're now in the pole position, right? And it's goes from a buyer market to a sellers market and they can start negotiating terms and then for projects in development which there's so few of us which we can get into too is extremely bullish too. Uh because people need that new once the you know this everybody sits down in the chair and there's not and there's a couple people left without a chair, right? They're going to be the ones uh looking for the new supply and going how much does it cost and and how do we get there? And so then the last piece of it is um and I talk about this a lot. We've talked about it that that AI and data centers is a race, right? And as a race, it's not one of those things go, "Oh, well, let's just adjust our model and say we're going to be a little bit slower because you can't lose." They feel it it as um uh a life and death battle between companies and countries, right? So if energy is a problem, we're going to write a check. If copper's a problem, we're going to write a check. So, when you start having getting into a deficit and on top of it, you're having a breakup of the the world's economy, the deglobalization, right? And then there's big big checkbooks because for them, it's life and death. And so, this is how it's playing out. And um and really even today's movement is why I I took it as such a bullish signal. It's getting very very real out there. Yeah. And I, you know, that's that's exactly how I process the deglobalization uh theory, right? Is that for the last 40 years if you had the cash or the credit you could buy whatever you wanted from whoever was selling it, right? It was a global market and that made trade very certain. This new era is an era of uncertainty. Exactly what you said. And when anything becomes when a necessity becomes uncertain, you'll pay far more and you want to hoard that thing, whatever that is. You're uh yeah, your 2020 toilet paper analogy is actually perfect. That's hilarious. But it's like kind of bang on and really simplifies the concept. It's no different. And we're seeing countries all over the world, India just last week announcing stockpiling of critical metals and copper and they're they're trying to hoard. Hoarding is the new strategy. Um, and and the way this changes the game from my perspective, and I'd love to know your take on this, is that this now puts the commodity game uh off of my desk into the onto the desk of our our uh officials, right? Our government officials because this is now a matter of national security. And you know, you can look at um practices of call it state capitalism in many countries around the world. You know, China's sort of regular course of business in this um regard, right? the state often intervenes to assist private businesses taking more market share from foreign competitors. We're now seeing that enter the United States in a major way. And as a commodity investor, I actually see that as incredibly bullish because there's a new strategic activist investor at the table, right? And if you're looking at projects that are favorable to the United States, that regional hedgeimon like there's new capital available. there's a new uh bully at the table when it comes to regulation and permitting. Let's get these things done. We need this, right? And it's it's different. So, what's your take on that concept? Like, call it state capitalism, call it, you know, private public partnership, but are are we in kind of like am I reading that right? Are we in a new era here? We can expect more of that. And is it is it bullish for the raw material sector? Like, how are you processing that? So, um I still think that the policy isn't necessarily so on the exact natural resources, but it's about the production chain, right? Um Trump does not care about gallium. He cares about that you use it in tomahawk missiles. I made that up, by the way, right? I don't know if that that's a one to one relationship, but say Molly because you need it in the high high strength high temperature steels in some of your in in your airplanes, right? um that's what's important and you're putting at risk our ability to advance uh certain important se sectors whether it's defense or it's your future and and AI is a battleground like I mean they're not acting like it but they're they're they're not saying it but they're acting like it okay you can definitely see it um and so in that point it's securing the the uh this production chain because it's the end product that they care about now and as you explained in the past you didn't care right where it came from and now they have to care so I also think it's going to be um in terms of I believe it's going to start with the smelting and refining capacity okay even in rare earth we've known it for a very long time right the problem is not the deposits the problem is the processing refinery so uh it might be a little bit of a knee-jerk and all the f the spotlight goes to the underlying assets, but it's the the refining and the smelting capacity that is rare earths aren't that rare, right? Uh it's how to produce them is the problem. Um you know, that's a very broad brush and obviously it's not applies to everything. There's obviously some some some deposit problems in some of them, but in in generalities. So it's even when you saw the tariff on copper in the United States, you know, we saw that dramatic drop in comx price, not in LME price, but we saw it in comx price was the day that go, oh no, no, no, no, no. On refined copper, no, but for two years. And basically that's a signal is you got two years to build your refining capacity here. So I probably see uh friend zoning. No, what's that's that's the wrong friend shoring is probably what we're going to also be seeing, right? Um that's why you saw Donald Trump in Australia, right? And or and talking to 30 or 40 different companies and cutting little checks here and there. You see all these 5% placements all over the place, right? And that is it's not an investment. It's a it's a it's an acceleration, right? They're using their check. We used to say, what should countries do in order to accelerate? We like make the permitting easing. That's what we'd always used to say, but this is different. This is actually putting gasoline into the gas tank. Uh recognizing that the equities markets is a part of the problem that we have a breakdown of the of of the system a little bit over this last secular bull uh secular bare market. Um that's really hampered us. Um so I do think I hate to call it nationalism. I've definitely seen some Twitters about this is the new nationalism and it's a sort of nationalism. Um but I don't think it's going to go that far. I don't think we're going to go go back that far. But we're definitely going to um see a a whole lot more domestic production to control the production chains and of course um French shoring. Yeah. And that that Australia development was interesting because there are a handful of countries in the world who are trying to thread the needle of neutrality between the United States and China for as long as they can. And Australia is one of those countries that's doing a pretty good job thus far. And it's in their best interest to do so because, you know, if they're militarily aligned with the United States, their biggest customer is China. But more importantly, from a proximity standpoint, that's a more logical trade partner. The same as Canada would never actually decouple from the United States because we share the largest land border in the world. It's never going to be more cost-effective to trade anywhere else. And Australia has to ask that question. And that's a very convenient trading partner and a big one. How can we thread this needle of neutrality? So Trump being in Australia very strategic uh and very smart I think and you know your your comments about resource nationalism and all this stuff. I don't Yeah, I I agree and I don't see it that way. I see it as this is the new era and if we were to step back and say in this fractured uh global chessboard we need for a minute just to think about countries like corporations because that's how competitive it is becoming and therefore if your competitor is using a strategy public private partnership to gain market share for their private enterprise and you're not doing that it's a problem right and so I think we'll see strategic uh moves like that but it's not it's not nationalism it's just It's a new era. I think it's a new era of strategy. Yeah, absolutely. Because and and the biggest difference is that it's it's uh I I truly believe that you know AI whether or not I mean you can argue easily that we're in a bubble in terms of the equity markets for AI, but it's still the future, right? It's still or data centers. Forget AI. It's it's data centers. It's data and information and technology. That's where everything is. And in China, uh, national policy and corporate policy is the same, right? Uh, very very close. And we're at a serious disadvantage because those two things aren't connected in other places and people will be catching up. Um, is is I think a very very very you summarize that very well. So, as we mentioned at the front end of this conversation, it's it's funny. Some of the some of the chats that we've had six months, 12 months, 18 months ago are now materializing and actualizing in front of us. And uh but you know, you've been on this trend for a long time and have assembled a team with copper giant to capitalize on this. And you know, some of the folks involved, well, you know, yourself, you put the mirror mine into production in Ecuador, uh copper mine in Ecuador. Ernie Mass, the former CEO of Cobra Panama, one of the largest copper mines in the world on your team. Frank Gustra, one of the most legendary uh natural resource investors and entrepreneur as your primary capital partner. So, you've been positioning for this moment for a while now, Ian. Um, and now we're entering this stage, right? Uh, so walk me through what you're building with Copper Giant Resources. Um, you know, we've jammed on this obviously, you know, many times, but I want you to reintroduce the story, uh, reintroduce the team a little bit and the opportunity that you're trying to corner right here. Yeah, obviously uh, when you're a mining engineer, so I'm a mining engineer and uh, the I like building, making sure that the projects I run become mines, right? That's the whole I feel like that's our purpose, right? Um, why else would we be spending people's money to an investment to try and advance these projects if it's not to actually see them one time be be birthed? Um, but sometimes we're not really in alignment with market. I think market gets it wrong so many times in in in terms of what are their overall picks. Um, but I think it's maybe you see a little bit of knee-jerk reaction, short-term vision, etc., etc. But we've definitely like you said, we said what it what is the perfect project to build, right? Um and it's like you you got good infrastructure around yourself, you got a good deposit, it's got to have scale, it's got to be size. You know, these guys keep on buying each other. And uh the sooner or later they're going to want to build some, they're not going to build want to build 50 of them. What size do they want? Gets to that size and scale. infrastructure is critically important because it's really becomes an equation many times of how much does it cost to add each new pound. So that's and and infrastructure is one of the determinants uh that's very much different. The other is how close to you how close to the surface is the deposit and then the rest is grade right everybody knows kind of grade. So we were looking for those things um and a place and the and the and the and is where I like to apply the rest of my equation. Can you build strength locally? Can you build the relationships locally over time? Build those relationships. Build a national reputation because that is what drives political will. And eventually you'll see a window in time where you can push things through and get things built, right? And I say that because if you look back at the last 10 years, there's only been really six projects built, big scale copper projects, right? Um maybe six. Yeah, depending when you put today, it might be five. uh depending on uh when you put that time scale, but you had Cobra Potama, right, which nobody thought could be built when Inmet had it, right? Too big, the middle of the jungle, uh way too low grade, too expensive, they sold it, first quantum bought it, built it, right? Miridor, same thing. Nothing's happening in Ecuador. Oh, look, new mining law, all this other stuff. We we got it across the finish line, first to restart. uh Chinese two ses came in bought it for 690 million stayed on for a year and started the construction got built first industrial scale mine in the history of Ecuador Las Bombas everybody walked from that project MMG and uh the Chinese also in partnership they believed in it got it built right um and and Congo without Freeland you know Freeland had the vision made it otherwise nobody would have walked at projects, right? So, market gets it wrong a lot. And if you got to put the ingredients uh together, so at at Makoa, which is copper giant's main asset, already has 600 million tons of resource, right? Already contains over 2 million tons of copper. It's probably the one of the world's largest undeveloped Molly projects and arguably one of the very few that could actually be developed and with a reasonable production rate. uh one of the very few I'd say one two three projects in the world uh for on the Molly side which is also a very important component and it's real near real infrastructure we got two 220 KVA power lines that run right by the project right you know it's a 30-minute drive from the airport nobody lives in the deposit area where all the infrastructure would go uh it has all these things going for it it's not in the middle of the desert so water is available um etc etc etc So as as comparison, Miridor I think was the lowest cost green fields copper project in the world per in terms of pounds per per uh dollar spent on it, right? It's now moving to 150,000 tons per day uh style project. It just grew. And so that's what we saw we saw and there's a lot of things that we've done where we do it now because there's a vision to build it as a mine. Uh a great example was the news that we put out last week which was fish finishing our um prior consultation with uh Inga Kondagwa which is the uh the only indigenous group close to the close to the project. Um and we are the only company to do that during expiration in Colombia has ever done that. Right. And on top of it were the only ones we know of and the government officials that we were talking to that did it where there was the company representative and the Kondagwa also was being their own representative. So we did it together, right? So we really did it and so it established this pathway on how to code the project and don't forget you know over a year ago two years ago we had with Monlar which is the community um that is closest to the project. These are the things that we put into place early on because that is what will build that cooperative spirit and then continue to build our national reputation. And I'm sorry I'm going on about this too much but because we're very proud of it. The last is for the second year in a row we've been ranked I think we were ranked 12th or 13th in terms of national reputation with the government um by Bruha Lamina which was there's a national mining congress every year. The difference is everybody who's ranked above us is either a big producer. They're all producing or they're a multi-billion dollar company. Uh and there's only really one of them and they're explorer. So there's only one other explorer that's ranked higher than us, but they're worth, you know, multiples of billions of dollars. Um and so the the little guys, we've already started to build a national reputation, right? So it's having that vision on how this becomes um how this becomes a market because I think it has all the rest. the rest is executing technically. Um, we just put out new metallurgical test work that showed 97% recovery of Molly. We went from 75% in our assumptions to 97. So, I'll probably move uh it's a big move because and the other one is we're not seeing any delotterious elements. So, it wouldn't be anything that would be a problem to smelt uh and to produce for example, which is a big big D- risk. But it also says you can, you know, you can get it out. So, uh, if everybody paid the same thing to mine the same amount of the same grade, but if you get it to a plant and they can't get it out, so obviously the economics change. So, going from 75% to 97% on the Molly, it now pushes Molly to over probably about a third of the value, but it would push our average grade over a half a percent per pound in uh half a percent per per in our resource. And and that's big. I mean these are big indicators that the economics are looking good and the other big one is it's near to the surface. You know we've been putting out thousand meter hole after thousand meter hole after thousand meter hole that's you know continuously mineralized. Um and that's a huge advantage right my other comparison is resolution which is getting a lot of of of hype because it finally looks like it could be you know it's got some sort of pathway under this administration to be built. uh but we know that if we start a building today it takes seven years before it even sees its first production because it's so deep underground right so a lot of things are aligning I wish I had more time and I'm sorry I went spent so much time but there's so much bullish and I think um it is extremely highly undervalued the the company compared to what it's got but I think uh well at least over the last couple months it looks like the world is waking up and starting to see this is one of the few projects that has all the things together, right? It has the ability to get over, you know, I see a pathway where this it's currently at 600 million. It could get to two billion tons. Um, it's got that pathway. And, uh, the last little tidbit is that we found the the fertile period, the time that this thing was actually producing as a deposit was over 10 million years. And as comparisons, the other projects that have those, it's like Chuki Kamata, right? The others are three, four, five years. Even Miridor was five. Vorinsa was three or four or five, right? But when you get 10 million years, you're talking about really can be the potential to be some of the biggest deposits. There's very few that have that many years to it. First of all, I don't think you spent too much time on your community engagement and approvals. uh you know it's one of the biggest obstacles that will stop a project in their tracks for years is failing to find that alignment with the local jurisdiction, the region and the community. Um and so building that at this stage in your company life cycle I think is incredibly strategic. And I know firsthand that's not just smok and mirrors because every time I talk to anybody on your team, that's like the first thing they tell me is when they went to the project, the reception they got from the local communities, right? And I know you employ uh from manufacturing equipment and gear that you use on site, you're employing the local community and tying them in to your success and Copper Giant success like from day one, right? I think it's Yeah, I don't I don't think it's a minor detail at all. I think it's very important. Um and so on the uh yeah so amazing results on the uh metallurgy uh front and you know surpassed expectations both on malebdinum and and copper uh concentration. Um, and how does you mentioned really quickly here like very low to no dilotarious elements. That's what we're finding here, right? So, as I hear that, I'm like that's just like it's very low contaminants. It's very low um challenges that you're going to face in terms of extracting economic mineral, right? That's somebody should interpret this. We're finding just like easy to extract metal and metal is not and often not easy to extract. So, that's that's why that's important. this tends to impact the valuation in a positive way when it comes to pea time, but could you just expand and add some context to that for me a little bit, Ian? Sure. Um, you know, there's an adage that uh great is king, right? Recovery is queen. And I think we're all forget about payable. Payable is we have the jack. I don't know whatever we'll figure out. The duke, right? But um because it's it's it's when you when you say grade is king, it's because if you have a mine and I have a mine, it probably costs a similar amount to get a ton out of the ground, right? Maybe here, a little bit higher there. Okay, in the Yukon it's going to be higher than it is Colombia, but we're talking 20%, 30%, right? But grade is king because it's what is inside that rock. And if I have two times your grade, I'm going to get two times more value out of that rock. So that's why grade is king. Then recovery is queen because okay great you have it in the rock but you can't if you can't get it out into something that can actually be sold doesn't matter. The last is payable and a lot of people forget about the payable part. Um because if you can't get paid for it right it also matters. And so that's when delterious elements really come in into the economics because there's certain smelters in the world and even China is going yeah not anymore guys not not sending that stuff to us anymore. High arsenic no forget that stuff. Right. So it's it's a combination of either an environmental impact that it creates at the smelting and getting it out of the air or even sometimes it's uh it can affect the quality of the the anode which is the product that you produce when um it comes out of a smelter then goes through to a refinery and then comes cathode. Um, but it it or whatever. And the and the other one is it could cause you a problem because I have so much of it in my in my waist dumps or my tailings or whatever. Um, and environmentally, locally. Um, but the big one that I think is easiest to understand is if you can't sell it anywhere, right? If you have if we're selling those apples again, but yours a little bruised, Whole Foods is not buying your apples. So you got to go, you know, maybe the dollar store buys your apples, but they're not going to pay the same as Whole Foods does. And so that's the problem. You don't get paid the same. You can't negotiate strong terms unless you have a very clean concentrate. So uh this these indications that we have a very very clean uh no delletterious elements in in in our material boats very well um from a both a permitting and the ability to sell a very quality concentrate. Now I want to put a caveat there that this was the first stage rougher to develop a um a flowheet to actually figure out what the concentrate will going to look like and that would be our next stage of metallurgical work. This is kind of Ian, what do I need to do uh to do the next stage of metallurgy uh to do a pea, right? And so this is the first set that helps us develop that program for this next stage of evaluation. But it it is looking really good. It's it's uh it it's bodess very well for the future of the project. Okay, thank you for that. That's how that impacts your your all-in sustaining cost. Uh can increase your smelting cost because you have to remove these contaminants. that can be challenging, can end up uh affecting the quality of your cathodes at the end of the day. And third, you got to deal with it, right? So, where's that where's that arsenic going to end up? It's going to end up in in your waste pile. That's a problem. You got to deal with that. That's added cost. That's added risk and liability. So, that's how that materializes into or that's why that matters to me as the shareholder when it comes to the end game, which is the payable. And thanks for tying that in because you're absolutely right. Uh the the Duke payable the Duke. shocking to me though is the one thing that I don't think market understands they they believe great is so much king for such a long period of time that they don't you know there's a difference between you know uh if you add a mining would you rather have 5% uh 50 m down or you'd rather have 1% uh 800 meters down and of course a mining rather have 5% early is that the depth is such an important factor nowadays copper projects and maybe it's because so many were built all of them to date have been very near surface surface and I don't know if you've ever seen that graph of discoveries and then it goes all the way down and resolution by the way is way down here on the bottom and they say all the new discoveries are getting deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. So we haven't faced that issue yet. I think as investors um to understand that the cost of developing an underground mine and even getting there right the time value of money um is dramatic is very very very dramatic on on projects. Um and so that's another thing that I would say people need to keep an eye on. How close is this thing to surface? Right. Well you mentioned that as one of your your four major points. You talked about infrastructure uh proximity to surface size and grade right and just knowing copper giant and as you mentioned you know you're 30 minutes from an airport have access to water um there's power available no uh like near proximity residence right so um infrastructure is in a good place we talked about grade we talked about size let's talk about uh proximity to service a little bit and expand on that a little bit for me Ian yeah and Um, you know, again, if you're develop even, let's just pretend, uh, it's not even open pit cuz the easiest answer is, well, it's a lot cheaper to do an open pit mine than it is to do an underground mine, right? It's just you can get it right. Uh, being more selective or being less selective, um, is a big deal. Um but even for underground just doing a shaft and the deeper the shaft the more it costs and it takes longer to get there right and the time value of money is huge right when you're trying to look at strong economics and the return of an investment right having to wait 5 years before even seeing initial production is crazy right um and being able to do that work and uh doing the engineering etc etc it's so important how close those deposits are to to surface And of course for an open pit mine, it is also ridiculously important because you have to pay to get rid of all that stuff on top before you get down to the good stuff. Um, and I would say this is there's a third combination, but I don't want to get overly complex is do you have higher grade material sitting here to surface too, right? Is there areas is the best parts of the deposit also close to surface? um at Makoa um about 40% of all of the copper is above 75% copper in the current resource right so we have these big sections of uh higher grade a lot of the higher grade material carries a lot of the copper plus we have a massive amount of disseminated so it's like the you cake can eat it too so even the bad stuff still gets fed to the mill and uh produces revenue for you and you can focus on uh fronting the higher grade material. Uh, and one of the reasons why our news last week was so excited because we found a third high-grade zone and we continue to see which most of the high-grade to date has been in the brechas which is a very late stage remobilization. Um, but we're now seeing pfery material that's extremely high grade too. We're saying seeing portions because you you're looking over 10 million years there's a lot of different events that have happened. And there's certain sections where wow, this one was really full of copper. And so that helps us track it because I really think at Makoa, you know, we're at 600 million tons and I told you with a straight face, I think there's easy pathway to how this could get to two billion tons is that we're really just maybe just touching the tail of an elephant. And so having that geological information of something to hunt for, we now are narrowing in into the best pieces of the project. We have some amazing geologists working on it. We have attracted some of the best geologists in the world. Uh, one of the newest additions uh to our board of directors was Mark Gibson. He's a worldrenown geoysicist. He worked in Colombia. He was with Ivanho Electric and also with Cordova Minerals in Colombia. And he he he called up to say, "I'd really like to be able to join join you guys." Uh, so I I I get really excited when I see people that I admire um wanting to work for this project because they can they can see it even it's if it's before market. I mean, we are probably up 80% in a month, but but you know, it's still extremely undervalued as a company. So, where I want to wrap this up then, Ian, is speaking to your perspective investors who are tuned in now, what everybody always wants to know is what can I expect, right? What's going to happen next? So in terms of uh nearishterm news flow uh walk people through what they might hear from you over the next you know four to 6 months. So the the last thing I'm going to say with a straight face is people ask me what the big catalysts are and I'm going I've already can say without a doubt we have already hit so many major catalysts that they've already been hit. Right. We showed that we could restart the project. We've now been drilling for over a year with non-stop showing that we can continue to drill. We've got the metallurgical test work done. We continue to put out some of the best holes on the damn planet. Every week when you see that best copper hits of the we're always on that list when we have drill hole results out, right? We just did our first um the prior consultation with Inga Kondagua. Another big D- risk, right? We've shown that we can advance this project. We've got a massive sponsorship with uh being in the Fury Group and Frank Chustra. Right. So really what this project has been waiting for I say there hasn't been a moment yet in market to show a graduation. We've been trading for 0.1 to 2 cents per pound in the ground where other advancing good solid projects are at least a penny right to like five pennies, seven pennies per pound in the ground, right? So I call it the getting that graduation. So really it's a market window I think is the most important news that everybody should be looking for and it looks like it's happening right in front of our eyes and that's why we've seen such a strong performance over the last month but I again there's a big go from 0.1 to one it's 10x right so I expect that this company could be very explosive um uh in the near term but anyways we continue to keep eyes we're continue to we're we're continue to be drilling we're now already starting the the work to do an updated resource estimate. That's important. We really want to show how this can get over a billion tons. And then the last thing that we have is we have elections in May and in Colombia with a new president in August time period. And that's kind of my goal of a time period I'd like to see, not exactly that date, maybe a little after, maybe a little bit before, but I want to start pushing towards getting towards a PA, right? So we'll be able to see the economics and cuz like I think the president is going to go I want to show how I can create employment. I want to show how I can bring in investment into this country. Anybody got anything and I want to be able to raise my hand and say we have look this is the first run. This is what the project looks conceptually based on something it can touch which is at least a pea. Um so that is the strategy right now. I honestly wish I could get even more drilling done before that time because I'd like to get higher into that resource number, but perhaps it continues to grow as we advance the project. So, we'll continue to see news in terms of uh deliverables on the drilling, the upcoming drilling, updated resources, and moving as into project development uh with the future PA that will be coming down the road. Exciting, Ian. Um man, lots in the pipeline. Congrats on the success this year, by the way, and continuing to just trump the market with your drill results. And I love how much you love copper, by the way. It's always like, you know, I love talking about copper with you cuz, man, you you just and you know, whether we're talking macro, we're getting into project details, comparables, what's, you know, what's occurring from a um geology uh perspective, you're so in you're so in the weeds and and but uh I'll learn a lot from you. So, I appreciate that, man. I always love catching up with you. Great to have you back in the program. Thanks for making the time. Uh looking forward to seeing you uh VR in January, right around the corner in Vancouver. So you guys want to catch Ian live on stage, meet him at the show. He'll be there January 25th, 26, Vancouver, British Columbia, vicia.com. But check out Copper Giant Resources. Um Ian's assembled an amazing team. Uh we ran through a handful of names today, but it really is like the best-in-class copper team in the business from uh mining experience to capital connections. Uh it's exciting. So congrats Ian. Always great to catch up with you and I'll see you soon. Thanks Jay. Always a pleasure having these conversations.
Why Copper is the New Oil
Summary
Transcript
Why are Goldman Sachs, City Bank, and many other major financial institutions revising their copper projections and increasing their price forecasts, not for 10 years down the road, but for next year, there's been some seismic shifts in the copper sector, and today we jump into all of those. My guest is Ian Harris, who's a veteran entrepreneur and mining engineer in the copper sector. He's built an amazing team around his company, including some of the biggest personalities in the mining sector. Former CEO of Cobra Panama, Ernie Mast, and one of the most legendary mining investors and entrepreneurs, Frank Gustra, as his capital partner, and Ian's team has been consistently putting out some of the best copper drill results in the industry over the last year. Today we get into the supply side, the demand side, what's changed, why these banks are adjusting their forecasts, and what we can expect from copper in the year ahead. This is the J Martin show where we dissect the greatest minds in geopolitics and finance so we can better understand the world. Here is Ian Harris. Enjoy. This is J Martin. All right, here I am with Ian Harris. Ian, it's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on today. always a pleasure to have our conversations although I feel like our past conversations are what's happening right in front of us and now we get to it's like more live action uh what's going on in in the in the planet and especially copper equities and copper commodity space so look forward to a fun discussion today yeah awesome yeah ton tons's happening so uh you're right it's it's funny reflecting on previous conversations and all of these forecasts that seemed audacious you know 6 months ago ago, 12 months ago, and and now we're kind of living in that reality. And uh major news in the copper sector just over the last couple weeks, you know, and today is no exception. But uh what a just like headline rich sector to be in. We spent a lot of time talking about demand and I want to get into demand with you today. But before that, I want to talk about some supply developments because in the last couple weeks, there's been some major banks, City Bank, Goldman Sachs revising their near-term, their 2026 copper outlook to put the world in a copper deficit a lot sooner than they thought and they're upgrading their copper price forecast um in relation to that. Now, my assumption is that that's in response to a couple major mines running into big problems, right? Grassburg here in Indonesia where I'm at obviously that's uh Freeport McMoran just yeah horrible situation but uh you know that's that's um second largest copper producer in the world uh and then tech revising their uh forecast revising them down both in their Chile mine and their uh Canadian project the Highland Valley. So what's your take on supply right now Ian? Like what are you paying attention to and and how are you interpreting all this? So I look at both supply and demand, right? Because it seems that the world has a short-term focus because we really focus on copper price as supposed to be the litmus test for how things are going and should translate right into equities, right? So I obviously watch that because it it uh it normally extremely bullish for the equities even though I think the case today is extremely bullish today um because these things don't play out over weeks even though the the market tends to have knee-jerk reactions over a very short period of time. So it's a combination of supply and we you know when you have tightness in the copper market it's it's not the same as in other spaces right because it's applies to so much of the world's uh economy today right still 90% 95% of all copper still goes into electrification right so you know we're talking about energy transition and uh you know sustainable energy and now we're talking AI and we're not talking data data centers and there is obviously an expectation that those sectors will consume a much larger uh portion of overall supply of copper but when you don't have enough copper that means people don't get lights right it means that people don't get the energy that they need to to advance their economies so a shortness in copper creates a more desperate you know more a desperate type reaction to the lack um and so that's why it plays out so it was already explainably tight we've I think even had conversations um about how smelters there was so much tightness in the market that smelters were paying to process concentrates, right? So normally you'd send your concentrate and you get paid for it. There was so much tightness that smelters were paying mines to process their concentrates. That's how much tightness that there was already in the market. So having some big big disruptions in supply obviously makes people change. uh it doesn't take much to switch something over because they were already anticipating extreme tightness already. Uh and it was just a question when is copper going to go into deficit? Um because there's just not enough new projects coming online. They're just they he can't the cupboard is bare has been the expression. I even like Freeland uh who you know his his post all week on Twitter is I told you so. Look at look what I said two years ago. What I told you is happening right in front of us. it's really playing out right now. Uh, of course, nobody can predict um when a tragedy happens like happened at at at Grassburg and it's really going to uh you know uh create create issues but any sort of disruption um but behind the scenes there there's in my opinion right there's a much bigger disruption already going on that is extremely bullish for the underlying assets and it's called the delobalization right the undoing of globalization that's going on right Now the fight um that we see most in the in the in the in the Twitter space right in the what is it truth space uh is US versus China but a lot of other countries are also saying what are we going to do about making sure we're securing our copper supply and that is the real real real background that's going on that I think is going to create the is the most bullish thing that could possibly happen for copper equities. Could could I ask you to add some context to that because I I 100% agree with you and I I talk about this all the time on my show and in my newsletter is that this new era of global trade, you know, whatever it is, I think it's very unclear, but the old era is definitely over. That much is clear. The era of globalization that I grew up in, that's done. Whatever happens next, way less certain for me. And I can, you know, get into the details about why that's such a bull case for commodities in general, but I'd love like what's your add some context to that. Why is the delobalization trend bullish for raw material prices and and copper specifically? Ian, I think it's a combination of of several things. I'm going to try and explain it the way I see it um in in the simplest way possible. Right? If we are in a perfect system, I'm producing oranges and you're producing oranges. is that everybody's producing oranges and they just go into this big bucket and then if anybody needs oranges, we produce 10 oranges and they want 10 oranges and it's great, right? But then all of a sudden they go, you know what, your economy is going to be based on oranges and there's not enough new oranges, right? And so people start, what happened to toilet paper prices when people were worried that there wouldn't be able to get toilet paper, right? That is what's going to happen when people go for the grab and hold their own. It's not about how much toilet paper you're necessarily using. It's how much you have in controlling that stock. Right? So, put in another set of context too is there is a term out there that I love because I I believe it's at least partially correct that copper is the new oil. And what does that mean? Why is it the new oil? uh and it's because the majority of the world's economies over the last century have been based on oil right it's the basis for our energy plastics so many so and and the world even petro dollars right the control of United States dollar as a reserve currency has been based on oil now I don't know if it's going to be a direct just go to copper but at least it's telling you that the new world economy is more and more based on electricity um whether it's data centers or AI or energy transition or the de decarbonization etc etc um right that that copper has a much more larger influence on the world's economy it's already called Dr. copper for a reason uh but it's so important right so as you break up a perfect system where globalization is about you know focusing on what you do so if you build electric motors I don't care where uh the copper wire comes from that I use to build my copper and then if you do copper wire I don't care where the copper comes from right it's just I work on making copper wire and I know there will always market will work it out but the second that that trend goes to panic which is looks like what were happening everybody wants to secure their supply. So it means what does it mean if you have if you're producing oranges or you're producing you know uh oranges that people want to secure that now everybody's grabbed it. What happens to somebody who's been left out? They need to find a new producer of oranges in this case copper. So that is why when the system breaks up, it's it's removing the efficiency of the system, right? It's now you need more supply in order to generate the same uh the the same um effect, right? Because people are hoarding it, right? And so that is why it's so bullish for the assets because they're now in the pole position, right? And it's goes from a buyer market to a sellers market and they can start negotiating terms and then for projects in development which there's so few of us which we can get into too is extremely bullish too. Uh because people need that new once the you know this everybody sits down in the chair and there's not and there's a couple people left without a chair, right? They're going to be the ones uh looking for the new supply and going how much does it cost and and how do we get there? And so then the last piece of it is um and I talk about this a lot. We've talked about it that that AI and data centers is a race, right? And as a race, it's not one of those things go, "Oh, well, let's just adjust our model and say we're going to be a little bit slower because you can't lose." They feel it it as um uh a life and death battle between companies and countries, right? So if energy is a problem, we're going to write a check. If copper's a problem, we're going to write a check. So, when you start having getting into a deficit and on top of it, you're having a breakup of the the world's economy, the deglobalization, right? And then there's big big checkbooks because for them, it's life and death. And so, this is how it's playing out. And um and really even today's movement is why I I took it as such a bullish signal. It's getting very very real out there. Yeah. And I, you know, that's that's exactly how I process the deglobalization uh theory, right? Is that for the last 40 years if you had the cash or the credit you could buy whatever you wanted from whoever was selling it, right? It was a global market and that made trade very certain. This new era is an era of uncertainty. Exactly what you said. And when anything becomes when a necessity becomes uncertain, you'll pay far more and you want to hoard that thing, whatever that is. You're uh yeah, your 2020 toilet paper analogy is actually perfect. That's hilarious. But it's like kind of bang on and really simplifies the concept. It's no different. And we're seeing countries all over the world, India just last week announcing stockpiling of critical metals and copper and they're they're trying to hoard. Hoarding is the new strategy. Um, and and the way this changes the game from my perspective, and I'd love to know your take on this, is that this now puts the commodity game uh off of my desk into the onto the desk of our our uh officials, right? Our government officials because this is now a matter of national security. And you know, you can look at um practices of call it state capitalism in many countries around the world. You know, China's sort of regular course of business in this um regard, right? the state often intervenes to assist private businesses taking more market share from foreign competitors. We're now seeing that enter the United States in a major way. And as a commodity investor, I actually see that as incredibly bullish because there's a new strategic activist investor at the table, right? And if you're looking at projects that are favorable to the United States, that regional hedgeimon like there's new capital available. there's a new uh bully at the table when it comes to regulation and permitting. Let's get these things done. We need this, right? And it's it's different. So, what's your take on that concept? Like, call it state capitalism, call it, you know, private public partnership, but are are we in kind of like am I reading that right? Are we in a new era here? We can expect more of that. And is it is it bullish for the raw material sector? Like, how are you processing that? So, um I still think that the policy isn't necessarily so on the exact natural resources, but it's about the production chain, right? Um Trump does not care about gallium. He cares about that you use it in tomahawk missiles. I made that up, by the way, right? I don't know if that that's a one to one relationship, but say Molly because you need it in the high high strength high temperature steels in some of your in in your airplanes, right? um that's what's important and you're putting at risk our ability to advance uh certain important se sectors whether it's defense or it's your future and and AI is a battleground like I mean they're not acting like it but they're they're they're not saying it but they're acting like it okay you can definitely see it um and so in that point it's securing the the uh this production chain because it's the end product that they care about now and as you explained in the past you didn't care right where it came from and now they have to care so I also think it's going to be um in terms of I believe it's going to start with the smelting and refining capacity okay even in rare earth we've known it for a very long time right the problem is not the deposits the problem is the processing refinery so uh it might be a little bit of a knee-jerk and all the f the spotlight goes to the underlying assets, but it's the the refining and the smelting capacity that is rare earths aren't that rare, right? Uh it's how to produce them is the problem. Um you know, that's a very broad brush and obviously it's not applies to everything. There's obviously some some some deposit problems in some of them, but in in generalities. So it's even when you saw the tariff on copper in the United States, you know, we saw that dramatic drop in comx price, not in LME price, but we saw it in comx price was the day that go, oh no, no, no, no, no. On refined copper, no, but for two years. And basically that's a signal is you got two years to build your refining capacity here. So I probably see uh friend zoning. No, what's that's that's the wrong friend shoring is probably what we're going to also be seeing, right? Um that's why you saw Donald Trump in Australia, right? And or and talking to 30 or 40 different companies and cutting little checks here and there. You see all these 5% placements all over the place, right? And that is it's not an investment. It's a it's a it's an acceleration, right? They're using their check. We used to say, what should countries do in order to accelerate? We like make the permitting easing. That's what we'd always used to say, but this is different. This is actually putting gasoline into the gas tank. Uh recognizing that the equities markets is a part of the problem that we have a breakdown of the of of the system a little bit over this last secular bull uh secular bare market. Um that's really hampered us. Um so I do think I hate to call it nationalism. I've definitely seen some Twitters about this is the new nationalism and it's a sort of nationalism. Um but I don't think it's going to go that far. I don't think we're going to go go back that far. But we're definitely going to um see a a whole lot more domestic production to control the production chains and of course um French shoring. Yeah. And that that Australia development was interesting because there are a handful of countries in the world who are trying to thread the needle of neutrality between the United States and China for as long as they can. And Australia is one of those countries that's doing a pretty good job thus far. And it's in their best interest to do so because, you know, if they're militarily aligned with the United States, their biggest customer is China. But more importantly, from a proximity standpoint, that's a more logical trade partner. The same as Canada would never actually decouple from the United States because we share the largest land border in the world. It's never going to be more cost-effective to trade anywhere else. And Australia has to ask that question. And that's a very convenient trading partner and a big one. How can we thread this needle of neutrality? So Trump being in Australia very strategic uh and very smart I think and you know your your comments about resource nationalism and all this stuff. I don't Yeah, I I agree and I don't see it that way. I see it as this is the new era and if we were to step back and say in this fractured uh global chessboard we need for a minute just to think about countries like corporations because that's how competitive it is becoming and therefore if your competitor is using a strategy public private partnership to gain market share for their private enterprise and you're not doing that it's a problem right and so I think we'll see strategic uh moves like that but it's not it's not nationalism it's just It's a new era. I think it's a new era of strategy. Yeah, absolutely. Because and and the biggest difference is that it's it's uh I I truly believe that you know AI whether or not I mean you can argue easily that we're in a bubble in terms of the equity markets for AI, but it's still the future, right? It's still or data centers. Forget AI. It's it's data centers. It's data and information and technology. That's where everything is. And in China, uh, national policy and corporate policy is the same, right? Uh, very very close. And we're at a serious disadvantage because those two things aren't connected in other places and people will be catching up. Um, is is I think a very very very you summarize that very well. So, as we mentioned at the front end of this conversation, it's it's funny. Some of the some of the chats that we've had six months, 12 months, 18 months ago are now materializing and actualizing in front of us. And uh but you know, you've been on this trend for a long time and have assembled a team with copper giant to capitalize on this. And you know, some of the folks involved, well, you know, yourself, you put the mirror mine into production in Ecuador, uh copper mine in Ecuador. Ernie Mass, the former CEO of Cobra Panama, one of the largest copper mines in the world on your team. Frank Gustra, one of the most legendary uh natural resource investors and entrepreneur as your primary capital partner. So, you've been positioning for this moment for a while now, Ian. Um, and now we're entering this stage, right? Uh, so walk me through what you're building with Copper Giant Resources. Um, you know, we've jammed on this obviously, you know, many times, but I want you to reintroduce the story, uh, reintroduce the team a little bit and the opportunity that you're trying to corner right here. Yeah, obviously uh, when you're a mining engineer, so I'm a mining engineer and uh, the I like building, making sure that the projects I run become mines, right? That's the whole I feel like that's our purpose, right? Um, why else would we be spending people's money to an investment to try and advance these projects if it's not to actually see them one time be be birthed? Um, but sometimes we're not really in alignment with market. I think market gets it wrong so many times in in in terms of what are their overall picks. Um, but I think it's maybe you see a little bit of knee-jerk reaction, short-term vision, etc., etc. But we've definitely like you said, we said what it what is the perfect project to build, right? Um and it's like you you got good infrastructure around yourself, you got a good deposit, it's got to have scale, it's got to be size. You know, these guys keep on buying each other. And uh the sooner or later they're going to want to build some, they're not going to build want to build 50 of them. What size do they want? Gets to that size and scale. infrastructure is critically important because it's really becomes an equation many times of how much does it cost to add each new pound. So that's and and infrastructure is one of the determinants uh that's very much different. The other is how close to you how close to the surface is the deposit and then the rest is grade right everybody knows kind of grade. So we were looking for those things um and a place and the and the and the and is where I like to apply the rest of my equation. Can you build strength locally? Can you build the relationships locally over time? Build those relationships. Build a national reputation because that is what drives political will. And eventually you'll see a window in time where you can push things through and get things built, right? And I say that because if you look back at the last 10 years, there's only been really six projects built, big scale copper projects, right? Um maybe six. Yeah, depending when you put today, it might be five. uh depending on uh when you put that time scale, but you had Cobra Potama, right, which nobody thought could be built when Inmet had it, right? Too big, the middle of the jungle, uh way too low grade, too expensive, they sold it, first quantum bought it, built it, right? Miridor, same thing. Nothing's happening in Ecuador. Oh, look, new mining law, all this other stuff. We we got it across the finish line, first to restart. uh Chinese two ses came in bought it for 690 million stayed on for a year and started the construction got built first industrial scale mine in the history of Ecuador Las Bombas everybody walked from that project MMG and uh the Chinese also in partnership they believed in it got it built right um and and Congo without Freeland you know Freeland had the vision made it otherwise nobody would have walked at projects, right? So, market gets it wrong a lot. And if you got to put the ingredients uh together, so at at Makoa, which is copper giant's main asset, already has 600 million tons of resource, right? Already contains over 2 million tons of copper. It's probably the one of the world's largest undeveloped Molly projects and arguably one of the very few that could actually be developed and with a reasonable production rate. uh one of the very few I'd say one two three projects in the world uh for on the Molly side which is also a very important component and it's real near real infrastructure we got two 220 KVA power lines that run right by the project right you know it's a 30-minute drive from the airport nobody lives in the deposit area where all the infrastructure would go uh it has all these things going for it it's not in the middle of the desert so water is available um etc etc etc So as as comparison, Miridor I think was the lowest cost green fields copper project in the world per in terms of pounds per per uh dollar spent on it, right? It's now moving to 150,000 tons per day uh style project. It just grew. And so that's what we saw we saw and there's a lot of things that we've done where we do it now because there's a vision to build it as a mine. Uh a great example was the news that we put out last week which was fish finishing our um prior consultation with uh Inga Kondagwa which is the uh the only indigenous group close to the close to the project. Um and we are the only company to do that during expiration in Colombia has ever done that. Right. And on top of it were the only ones we know of and the government officials that we were talking to that did it where there was the company representative and the Kondagwa also was being their own representative. So we did it together, right? So we really did it and so it established this pathway on how to code the project and don't forget you know over a year ago two years ago we had with Monlar which is the community um that is closest to the project. These are the things that we put into place early on because that is what will build that cooperative spirit and then continue to build our national reputation. And I'm sorry I'm going on about this too much but because we're very proud of it. The last is for the second year in a row we've been ranked I think we were ranked 12th or 13th in terms of national reputation with the government um by Bruha Lamina which was there's a national mining congress every year. The difference is everybody who's ranked above us is either a big producer. They're all producing or they're a multi-billion dollar company. Uh and there's only really one of them and they're explorer. So there's only one other explorer that's ranked higher than us, but they're worth, you know, multiples of billions of dollars. Um and so the the little guys, we've already started to build a national reputation, right? So it's having that vision on how this becomes um how this becomes a market because I think it has all the rest. the rest is executing technically. Um, we just put out new metallurgical test work that showed 97% recovery of Molly. We went from 75% in our assumptions to 97. So, I'll probably move uh it's a big move because and the other one is we're not seeing any delotterious elements. So, it wouldn't be anything that would be a problem to smelt uh and to produce for example, which is a big big D- risk. But it also says you can, you know, you can get it out. So, uh, if everybody paid the same thing to mine the same amount of the same grade, but if you get it to a plant and they can't get it out, so obviously the economics change. So, going from 75% to 97% on the Molly, it now pushes Molly to over probably about a third of the value, but it would push our average grade over a half a percent per pound in uh half a percent per per in our resource. And and that's big. I mean these are big indicators that the economics are looking good and the other big one is it's near to the surface. You know we've been putting out thousand meter hole after thousand meter hole after thousand meter hole that's you know continuously mineralized. Um and that's a huge advantage right my other comparison is resolution which is getting a lot of of of hype because it finally looks like it could be you know it's got some sort of pathway under this administration to be built. uh but we know that if we start a building today it takes seven years before it even sees its first production because it's so deep underground right so a lot of things are aligning I wish I had more time and I'm sorry I went spent so much time but there's so much bullish and I think um it is extremely highly undervalued the the company compared to what it's got but I think uh well at least over the last couple months it looks like the world is waking up and starting to see this is one of the few projects that has all the things together, right? It has the ability to get over, you know, I see a pathway where this it's currently at 600 million. It could get to two billion tons. Um, it's got that pathway. And, uh, the last little tidbit is that we found the the fertile period, the time that this thing was actually producing as a deposit was over 10 million years. And as comparisons, the other projects that have those, it's like Chuki Kamata, right? The others are three, four, five years. Even Miridor was five. Vorinsa was three or four or five, right? But when you get 10 million years, you're talking about really can be the potential to be some of the biggest deposits. There's very few that have that many years to it. First of all, I don't think you spent too much time on your community engagement and approvals. uh you know it's one of the biggest obstacles that will stop a project in their tracks for years is failing to find that alignment with the local jurisdiction, the region and the community. Um and so building that at this stage in your company life cycle I think is incredibly strategic. And I know firsthand that's not just smok and mirrors because every time I talk to anybody on your team, that's like the first thing they tell me is when they went to the project, the reception they got from the local communities, right? And I know you employ uh from manufacturing equipment and gear that you use on site, you're employing the local community and tying them in to your success and Copper Giant success like from day one, right? I think it's Yeah, I don't I don't think it's a minor detail at all. I think it's very important. Um and so on the uh yeah so amazing results on the uh metallurgy uh front and you know surpassed expectations both on malebdinum and and copper uh concentration. Um, and how does you mentioned really quickly here like very low to no dilotarious elements. That's what we're finding here, right? So, as I hear that, I'm like that's just like it's very low contaminants. It's very low um challenges that you're going to face in terms of extracting economic mineral, right? That's somebody should interpret this. We're finding just like easy to extract metal and metal is not and often not easy to extract. So, that's that's why that's important. this tends to impact the valuation in a positive way when it comes to pea time, but could you just expand and add some context to that for me a little bit, Ian? Sure. Um, you know, there's an adage that uh great is king, right? Recovery is queen. And I think we're all forget about payable. Payable is we have the jack. I don't know whatever we'll figure out. The duke, right? But um because it's it's it's when you when you say grade is king, it's because if you have a mine and I have a mine, it probably costs a similar amount to get a ton out of the ground, right? Maybe here, a little bit higher there. Okay, in the Yukon it's going to be higher than it is Colombia, but we're talking 20%, 30%, right? But grade is king because it's what is inside that rock. And if I have two times your grade, I'm going to get two times more value out of that rock. So that's why grade is king. Then recovery is queen because okay great you have it in the rock but you can't if you can't get it out into something that can actually be sold doesn't matter. The last is payable and a lot of people forget about the payable part. Um because if you can't get paid for it right it also matters. And so that's when delterious elements really come in into the economics because there's certain smelters in the world and even China is going yeah not anymore guys not not sending that stuff to us anymore. High arsenic no forget that stuff. Right. So it's it's a combination of either an environmental impact that it creates at the smelting and getting it out of the air or even sometimes it's uh it can affect the quality of the the anode which is the product that you produce when um it comes out of a smelter then goes through to a refinery and then comes cathode. Um, but it it or whatever. And the and the other one is it could cause you a problem because I have so much of it in my in my waist dumps or my tailings or whatever. Um, and environmentally, locally. Um, but the big one that I think is easiest to understand is if you can't sell it anywhere, right? If you have if we're selling those apples again, but yours a little bruised, Whole Foods is not buying your apples. So you got to go, you know, maybe the dollar store buys your apples, but they're not going to pay the same as Whole Foods does. And so that's the problem. You don't get paid the same. You can't negotiate strong terms unless you have a very clean concentrate. So uh this these indications that we have a very very clean uh no delletterious elements in in in our material boats very well um from a both a permitting and the ability to sell a very quality concentrate. Now I want to put a caveat there that this was the first stage rougher to develop a um a flowheet to actually figure out what the concentrate will going to look like and that would be our next stage of metallurgical work. This is kind of Ian, what do I need to do uh to do the next stage of metallurgy uh to do a pea, right? And so this is the first set that helps us develop that program for this next stage of evaluation. But it it is looking really good. It's it's uh it it's bodess very well for the future of the project. Okay, thank you for that. That's how that impacts your your all-in sustaining cost. Uh can increase your smelting cost because you have to remove these contaminants. that can be challenging, can end up uh affecting the quality of your cathodes at the end of the day. And third, you got to deal with it, right? So, where's that where's that arsenic going to end up? It's going to end up in in your waste pile. That's a problem. You got to deal with that. That's added cost. That's added risk and liability. So, that's how that materializes into or that's why that matters to me as the shareholder when it comes to the end game, which is the payable. And thanks for tying that in because you're absolutely right. Uh the the Duke payable the Duke. shocking to me though is the one thing that I don't think market understands they they believe great is so much king for such a long period of time that they don't you know there's a difference between you know uh if you add a mining would you rather have 5% uh 50 m down or you'd rather have 1% uh 800 meters down and of course a mining rather have 5% early is that the depth is such an important factor nowadays copper projects and maybe it's because so many were built all of them to date have been very near surface surface and I don't know if you've ever seen that graph of discoveries and then it goes all the way down and resolution by the way is way down here on the bottom and they say all the new discoveries are getting deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. So we haven't faced that issue yet. I think as investors um to understand that the cost of developing an underground mine and even getting there right the time value of money um is dramatic is very very very dramatic on on projects. Um and so that's another thing that I would say people need to keep an eye on. How close is this thing to surface? Right. Well you mentioned that as one of your your four major points. You talked about infrastructure uh proximity to surface size and grade right and just knowing copper giant and as you mentioned you know you're 30 minutes from an airport have access to water um there's power available no uh like near proximity residence right so um infrastructure is in a good place we talked about grade we talked about size let's talk about uh proximity to service a little bit and expand on that a little bit for me Ian yeah and Um, you know, again, if you're develop even, let's just pretend, uh, it's not even open pit cuz the easiest answer is, well, it's a lot cheaper to do an open pit mine than it is to do an underground mine, right? It's just you can get it right. Uh, being more selective or being less selective, um, is a big deal. Um but even for underground just doing a shaft and the deeper the shaft the more it costs and it takes longer to get there right and the time value of money is huge right when you're trying to look at strong economics and the return of an investment right having to wait 5 years before even seeing initial production is crazy right um and being able to do that work and uh doing the engineering etc etc it's so important how close those deposits are to to surface And of course for an open pit mine, it is also ridiculously important because you have to pay to get rid of all that stuff on top before you get down to the good stuff. Um, and I would say this is there's a third combination, but I don't want to get overly complex is do you have higher grade material sitting here to surface too, right? Is there areas is the best parts of the deposit also close to surface? um at Makoa um about 40% of all of the copper is above 75% copper in the current resource right so we have these big sections of uh higher grade a lot of the higher grade material carries a lot of the copper plus we have a massive amount of disseminated so it's like the you cake can eat it too so even the bad stuff still gets fed to the mill and uh produces revenue for you and you can focus on uh fronting the higher grade material. Uh, and one of the reasons why our news last week was so excited because we found a third high-grade zone and we continue to see which most of the high-grade to date has been in the brechas which is a very late stage remobilization. Um, but we're now seeing pfery material that's extremely high grade too. We're saying seeing portions because you you're looking over 10 million years there's a lot of different events that have happened. And there's certain sections where wow, this one was really full of copper. And so that helps us track it because I really think at Makoa, you know, we're at 600 million tons and I told you with a straight face, I think there's easy pathway to how this could get to two billion tons is that we're really just maybe just touching the tail of an elephant. And so having that geological information of something to hunt for, we now are narrowing in into the best pieces of the project. We have some amazing geologists working on it. We have attracted some of the best geologists in the world. Uh, one of the newest additions uh to our board of directors was Mark Gibson. He's a worldrenown geoysicist. He worked in Colombia. He was with Ivanho Electric and also with Cordova Minerals in Colombia. And he he he called up to say, "I'd really like to be able to join join you guys." Uh, so I I I get really excited when I see people that I admire um wanting to work for this project because they can they can see it even it's if it's before market. I mean, we are probably up 80% in a month, but but you know, it's still extremely undervalued as a company. So, where I want to wrap this up then, Ian, is speaking to your perspective investors who are tuned in now, what everybody always wants to know is what can I expect, right? What's going to happen next? So in terms of uh nearishterm news flow uh walk people through what they might hear from you over the next you know four to 6 months. So the the last thing I'm going to say with a straight face is people ask me what the big catalysts are and I'm going I've already can say without a doubt we have already hit so many major catalysts that they've already been hit. Right. We showed that we could restart the project. We've now been drilling for over a year with non-stop showing that we can continue to drill. We've got the metallurgical test work done. We continue to put out some of the best holes on the damn planet. Every week when you see that best copper hits of the we're always on that list when we have drill hole results out, right? We just did our first um the prior consultation with Inga Kondagua. Another big D- risk, right? We've shown that we can advance this project. We've got a massive sponsorship with uh being in the Fury Group and Frank Chustra. Right. So really what this project has been waiting for I say there hasn't been a moment yet in market to show a graduation. We've been trading for 0.1 to 2 cents per pound in the ground where other advancing good solid projects are at least a penny right to like five pennies, seven pennies per pound in the ground, right? So I call it the getting that graduation. So really it's a market window I think is the most important news that everybody should be looking for and it looks like it's happening right in front of our eyes and that's why we've seen such a strong performance over the last month but I again there's a big go from 0.1 to one it's 10x right so I expect that this company could be very explosive um uh in the near term but anyways we continue to keep eyes we're continue to we're we're continue to be drilling we're now already starting the the work to do an updated resource estimate. That's important. We really want to show how this can get over a billion tons. And then the last thing that we have is we have elections in May and in Colombia with a new president in August time period. And that's kind of my goal of a time period I'd like to see, not exactly that date, maybe a little after, maybe a little bit before, but I want to start pushing towards getting towards a PA, right? So we'll be able to see the economics and cuz like I think the president is going to go I want to show how I can create employment. I want to show how I can bring in investment into this country. Anybody got anything and I want to be able to raise my hand and say we have look this is the first run. This is what the project looks conceptually based on something it can touch which is at least a pea. Um so that is the strategy right now. I honestly wish I could get even more drilling done before that time because I'd like to get higher into that resource number, but perhaps it continues to grow as we advance the project. So, we'll continue to see news in terms of uh deliverables on the drilling, the upcoming drilling, updated resources, and moving as into project development uh with the future PA that will be coming down the road. Exciting, Ian. Um man, lots in the pipeline. Congrats on the success this year, by the way, and continuing to just trump the market with your drill results. And I love how much you love copper, by the way. It's always like, you know, I love talking about copper with you cuz, man, you you just and you know, whether we're talking macro, we're getting into project details, comparables, what's, you know, what's occurring from a um geology uh perspective, you're so in you're so in the weeds and and but uh I'll learn a lot from you. So, I appreciate that, man. I always love catching up with you. Great to have you back in the program. Thanks for making the time. Uh looking forward to seeing you uh VR in January, right around the corner in Vancouver. So you guys want to catch Ian live on stage, meet him at the show. He'll be there January 25th, 26, Vancouver, British Columbia, vicia.com. But check out Copper Giant Resources. Um Ian's assembled an amazing team. Uh we ran through a handful of names today, but it really is like the best-in-class copper team in the business from uh mining experience to capital connections. Uh it's exciting. So congrats Ian. Always great to catch up with you and I'll see you soon. Thanks Jay. Always a pleasure having these conversations.