Tavi Costa: China, US & G7 Acting Like Emerging Markets | Gold, Silver & Energy In Long Term Bull

Summary

• Macro Outlook: The guest sees a weakening dollar, persistent inflation, and ongoing fiscal deficits driving monetary debasement, which is negative for bonds but supportive for real assets.
• Precious Metals: He remains strongly bullish on gold and silver miners, citing exceptional margins, under-ownership by institutions, and limited new supply or discoveries.
• Copper: Structural demand from AI infrastructure, data centers, EVs, and onshoring is decoupling copper from traditional cyclicality, while discoveries and new supply remain scarce.
• Energy: The oil & gas E&P space looks attractive with 9–15% free cash flow yields and upside if oil moves to $80–$100, also serving as a hedge for miners’ energy costs.
• Latin America: He is optimistic on Latin America—especially Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, and Chile—citing improving business orientation, U.S. engagement, and prolific geology for metals.
• Institutional Rotation: Generalist funds are scrambling to gain exposure to mining equities, with potential for major reratings as earnings power outpaces share price gains.
• Hyperscaler Capex: Massive, sustained capex by hyperscalers (AI/data centers) and strong free cash flow could channel significant capital into materials, energy, utilities, and infrastructure.
• Risks & Discipline: He warns against rare earth hype and emphasizes jurisdictional diligence, quality management, and patience to navigate volatility and maximize the cycle.

Transcript

Hi everyone, this is Jason Mer of Wall Street from Main Street. Welcome back for another Wall Street from Ming Street podcast interview. Today's special guest is a returning guest. He hasn't been on in a while, but he's been putting out amazing work for the last couple years. Probably the best, if uh one of the top two or three, if not the best macro charts, commodities charts over there showing like undervalued gold and silver companies, oil, a lot of money supply growth. He's been tracking it. Uh you see his charts literally all over financial all over financial social media. People don't always give him credit for the charts, but you can see his name down there at the bottom. His research is that good. He's been a hedge fund manager for many years at Krescott Capital. He just left and started he's working on his own fund now called Azeria Capital. Tabby Costa, thank you for joining me again. >> Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this, Jason. >> So Toby, we're recording this interview on Wednesday, January 28th, 2026. the dollar gold price uh drone pal did not cut interest rates on the short end today and surprisingly the gold and silver prices they still went up. So the gold price gapped up to $5,400 over $5,400. The chart just looks uh the uh couple hour chart just looks absolutely nuts. The silver price is still well above $100 at $116 an ounce. I I hadn't even looked at platinum and palladium in a while in months and platinum and platium are up enormously too. I want to get your thoughts on the macro situation before we get into metals. The narrative from the people um in the Trump administration, Federal Reserve Bank DC, inflation's not a problem. Inflation's coming down. There's low oil, low gasoline prices. What are your thoughts on inflation given what we're seeing with the uh stock market and the metals prices? >> Well, I don't, you know, I don't think inflation is really as suppressed as the government is is is saying and claiming that it is. I also think that as a macro investor, you're always trying to assess all the all the probabilities that could be unfolding here. And I would say that the although it may sound crazy what I'm going to say but uh when you have the weakening of the US dollar you have precious metals moving the way they are oil is clearly in my view resurging now uh copper doing what it's been doing. Then Trump administration or Trump specifically on an interview yesterday or two days ago actually uh talked about how he does not want to hurt investors in the housing market and so forth. I mean he's one of them I guess um and wants to keep prices higher. That's that the solution is not collapsing the housing market. So clearly he's got a view there. Um, and then on top of it, you have, you know, a Federal Reserve that will be forced eventually here to cut rates substantially. We're not going to see any changes in the fiscal side. Fiscal will continue to run hot. And so I, you know, it's hard to say that that we're, you know, that inflation is is contained. I don't I don't think that's the case. And I would go a little further than that. the types of movements we're seeing. I mean, in the last two days, gold alone has moved about 8%. Right? When was the last time that happened? That was 2020 in the middle of the pandemic. If you take that away from the equation, uh is probably the first time I'm seeing here in the chart right now, we haven't seen any time in history uh maybe since all the way back to the 70s in a two-day move like that on a percentage basis. I'm not even talking about from a dollar base because the dollar base is ridiculous. Now, you have to ask yourself, I mean, if if we're seeing these types of moves and you compare with times like Germany in 1920s and other periods and other economies that suffer from hyperinflation, I don't think it's out of the the the the realm of possibilities here. I I don't you know I I don't like to be the doom and gloom and and say these things but you know I don't think it's a 0% uh probability. I I think it's more like 20 25 or so. Um and that's quite high. Um so I'm a little concerned about what's been happening. Um you know feels great being right about metals but feels like I'm missing something here. Uh, and if I'm missing something, definitely the as part of your podcast name, Main Street is probably definitely missing something as well. So, I don't know. It's uh it it feel it feels like we're just, you know, staying afloat with that real inflation in the system. Monetary debasement is happening, you know, like like never before. Um, it just really feels as well that that that we are in a monetary realignment uh occurring. Um, I do think that, you know, I remember just just not too long ago was talking about with a few uh famous investors about uh potentially, you know, weakening the US dollar and these people said I was I was crazy and now this became a narrative all of a sudden. Did I think it was going to become a narrative so quickly? No. But it's it's you know how could how do you fix a trade balance issue, not just fiscal balance issue, a trade balance issue with a strong dollar? You don't you have to weaken the dollar. So it is a little problematic what we're seeing. You add the weaker dollar to a world where you have to suppress rates and you have to allow inflation to run hotter than expected. I don't know. It just seems like things are a bit wild on the inflation front in the US. And uh I don't know if the main street again using the name here is really aware of of of the magnitude of these moves and and the and the meaning of them uh for financial markets over time. And I don't think you're positive. They're very negative in my view. >> Well, most Americans don't own any physical gold or silver. They own stocks in their retirement account. They own homes like you said. So that's why President Trump is focused on that. Now, the politicians are talking about affordability, but they're not talking that the majority of the affordability problems, the stagflation, the shrinkflation, the tariffs, they're caused by Washington DC. They're not caused by free markets and capitalism. They're caused by bad policies. So, the governments, what the budget deficits, it it doesn't seem to matter, Tavi, which political parties in power in the White House or in Congress, President Trump and the Pentagon. I think over the next 12 months, they're talking about upping the Pentagon budget, and it's already headed higher. They're talking about 1.5 trillion a year. I think we're already up to around a trillion a year are the estimates for the Pentagon budget. They're talking about up to 1.5 trillion a year. The budget deficits are blowing out. These are not um low inflation policies even if Trump and the Trump administration people on business TV keep saying that there's going to be low oil and low gasoline prices. I mean this see that seems like a misdirection cuz on one hand you have they're focused on low oil and low gasoline prices and then on the other hand they're just doing whatever they want with the um money supply growth and it's it's not just the US tvy I don't know if you taken a look at the global M2 another hedge fun manager friend of mine a couple months ago told me to look at global M2 I hadn't checked it in a long time and it's growing like enormously it's almost up to hundred trillion dollars and the majority of the money supply growth isn't even from the US yet. Yeah, I mean it's mostly China actually, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh China has has been increasing money supply like crazy. Um >> look, I don't know. It it just seems, you know, uh I mean there's a lot of ideas to me, you know, to be doing and I have some fresh capital here to deploy and I've been uh outside of mining and some other things that I'm usually involved. It's, you know, it's difficult to find great opportunities out there because everything is is is up. [laughter] >> So, >> yeah, it's not cheap and hated. Yeah. Like it was like I I remember during the pand you brought up the pandemic. I remember when Kamico was between the uranium companies were a dollar. Most of them were a dollar or less. Kamo was between8 and $15 a share for years. No one wanted it. Like those types of bargains are just few and far between right now. >> Yeah. And I would say that there the opportunity uh in some of those bargains if you will and I wouldn't play this from a you know like owning shares. I would own call options on these things because you never know the future. I I'm you know you know me probably well in terms of the views that I've had over the years and I used to be very bearish on China. Now I I own some call options in Chinese equities right now. Um I think it's one of the few places in the world that have not really benefited much from the capital um you know rotation we're seeing in most emerging markets. Um and yeah, I own a little bit of that. Um but I, you know, I'm very focused on big long-term trends that I think are unfolding right in front of us. I mean um there's a question about mining, right? Is mining at a peak or is things frothy or not? Look, I I think most institutions were caught off guard in the last two years. You don't fix a bubble or I should say a depressed market with, you know, two years of good performance. Um, I don't think that this is anywhere close to a peak. I think it's more of a wakeup call. And now institutions that were caught off guard had to show their clients that they had an a position in this. Um, but if you really analyze what these guys are doing and you talk to these guys, cuz I've been targeted as well, just like other managers that are in the space, there are not many, right? We kind of all know each other, particularly the ones that do a good job. And I would say that by being on that side of the of of this uh of this market um the questions and the way that that uh people have been engaging with us from from an institutional standpoint, it's a bit scary. You know, they're making big decisions without a lot of knowledge. And so uh you know, I think there's going to be a lot of misallocation. all this commentary about rare earth and other minerals that have never been thought about and now have been talked about like there are great opportunities. I mean, they're not really great opportunities. They're kind of, you know, low um return sort of uh projects that you're not really going to make a lot of money here and they're very small markets. They're probably going to get over supply. But when you look at bigger bigger markets like gold, silver, uh copper and others, I think that the knowledge uh and the decision- making that is happening across those markets is is not as um you know not as sharp and I I don't I don't know. It's a bit of worry uh how this is going to play out as well from that standpoint. We're not seeing any discoveries. We're not seeing any companies, you know, really increasing production anytime soon here. So from a nominal standpoint, things may look very peaky and and toppy and so forth, but um there's not really a fundamental reason for why these metal prices should be coming down. Um they were just catching up with, you know, a long history here of of of monetary dilution, debt creation, and mismanagement from most politicians. And so yeah, I I don't know. I it does from one side it seems extreme from the other side from a relative basis and you just mentioned money supply growth as well globally um you know we're just catching up to where you know where things have been and so I'm I'm very bullish still in the space I mean I I I don't think we've seen you know the the the cycle yet. I mean, we're we're we're in the middle. Well, not in the middle. We're still in the beginning in my view and sort of wake me up when we have, you know, major amounts of M&A and capex at its peak level, production increasing, discoveries everywhere. And we're not we're nowhere close to that in my view. >> Yeah, I agree. It'll take at least a couple more years for more production. So like some of these brownfields expansion projects. So if a producing miner wants to expand its mill, maybe wants to increase production incremental incrementally, excuse me, 10 20% maybe at an existing mine, spend money on exploration budget around the mine, they could do that. But to bring on a whole new mine for gold and silver, it's going to take at least um depending upon the country and the jurisdiction and the permitting process could take at least 3 to 5 years. In certain areas, other other uh countries, it may take longer than that. But that was a good point you made about rare earth mines. I mean, the profit margins, people like, "Oh, there's rare earth shortage." You're right. They're going to fund way too many of these rare earth mines that are not rare. They're uh they cause enormous environmental damage to the air, so soil, and water. The capital expenditure to build one of these mines could be a billion dollars or more. They might not end up being profitable. And that's not where actually the value added for the rears are needed is all in the processing, making the magnets. I'd much rather Toby go and buy a gold or silver mine that could be in production uh in a certain amount of years with with way better profit margins than free cash flow than go and buy a rare earth mine and try to restart it there with all the environmental problems and then having what uranium or thorium uh radioactive byproduct. >> Yeah. I mean it it's scary. I mean it a lot of you know I I also speak with a lot of institutions and they talk about rare earth and other minerals as if it's a major market where they're going to make a lot of money and it's just not the case. Um yeah even the government itself I mean the government has been funding a few projects that probably will never become economic. Sure if you're going to be putting subsidies on top of those things and saying these things are now economic. Sure. then then you know who am I to say that something is not worth uh the investment but I think we're entering a world where in and sure if if people are doing this with these small markets you're going to eventually do this with the actual critical markets and I I I just think that one exercise I've been doing a lot about you know what would the peak of the cycle look like and things along those lines is we're still in the transition where people are like even from a discounted free cash flow approach, we're far from a peak level. Now, I do think we're getting to a world where people are going to start paying what I call securing metal valuations. And if that's the case, know what what you know, none of us know really what people would be paying for these things. And that's where things can get wild here. And the other aspect is is the margins we're seeing for most of these companies. You mentioned gold and silver, rightly so. Especially silver. Um, some of these mining companies are still producing at sub $15 an ounce. Some of them at $10 an ounce. Well, if you're selling silver at $100 or so, maybe 110, who knows? Maybe 120. These are not your average margins we've seen in history. I mean, we're talking about some of the largest margins ever, ever, ever, right? Um, so yeah, I I don't know. It's I >> the margins what the margins are better than even what the 1929 one where the oil price is falling in deflation and the 1970 stagflation. I think >> the there is nothing like this. Nothing nothing. I mean, I we run a mine >> uh a very large mine and we're not seeing costs anywhere close to this. I think we're seeing cost increase of maybe 15% which is high but I mean silver prices just triple so I don't know it just seems maybe the cost is coming here on the curve I would not shock me but and I think you need to be aware of that as an I' I've said this before and I do think that oil and energy overall is a great way to hedge if you're not hagging your energy cost in your your mining company I think you're out of your mind. Uh I think it's a very lowcost hedge to put it on for the next 3 to four, five years or so. But at the same time, I'm a bit concerned about um um you know, I I I don't think the market is appreciate. I think the market is is basically priced in that that most of these metals are not going to stay where at these u where at these elevated uh you know uh prices that we're seeing. I I disagree. I I I think we will I think we will see maybe we'll bounce back to $70 an ounce, but even at $70 an ounce would have been a dream price, you know, a year ago for silver prices. And so, yeah, just this seems a bit, you know, a really a really good time to be a a large investor in the mining space, I have to say. I mean, this is a core investment of my portfolio. Um, and I'm really excited about it because I I think I don't think we've seen anything yet from the mining standpoint. >> And to add to your points there, I think the gold and silver industry, the mining industry, it's the only industry over the last 12 to 18 months with this high percentage in free cash flow. So, I think that's what a lot of the generalist investors are finally starting to notice. Some of them had zero exposure, Tubby. So I was I was just getting I was bringing up like ideas for valuations for some of these gold miners, silver miners years ago, royalty and streaming companies. Two, three, four years ago, a hedge fun manager looked at me like I had three heads. [laughter] So I would be on a conversation. I'd be like, you know, telling him the cash flow multiples, how cheap they were. I'd be like, if the gold price goes to 3,000, I mean, this company's worth way more money. Oh, the gold price is not going to 3,000. No, I don't want any gold exposure. So I think like the whole industry now is scrambling to reallocate um the generalist fund managers. So pension funds, generalist fund managers that have billions of dollars assets under management. They're scrambling now to get any type of allocation to gold and silver because they didn't they had almost zero for for many many years. >> Yeah. I you know some some institutions have been buying some metals but is it enough relative to the rest of I mean I I I think that wealth has gone up so much that a 3040 trillion gold market is sort of peanuts relative to the size of wealth all over the world. Last time I checked, wealth was about $650 trillion dollars, you know. So, it's it's not really that meaningful what we've seen so far with gold. So, I would I would argue that there's room here. Um there's lags to this move in a big way. And if so, how mispriced are the miners? You know, let's just say this stays at five years for for five years these prices. I mean, man, these things are could be could see a major rerating here. Like major. >> They're like Benjamin Graham, Warren Buffett free cash flow machines for this window. As long as we don't get a huge spike in say a government royalty tax or energy prices or something. >> Yes. It wouldn't, by the way, it wouldn't shock me. I know Burkshire had a few instance where they either bought it on purpose, not on purpose, whatever. Uh but wouldn't shock me at all if these guys get involved. I mean, if they got involved in the energy, I I don't know. It just seems like yeah uh it the opportunity is so clear. And look, I I think this is one of the best most compelling. I mean, I I we used to talk about these things as as incredibly compelling and love the idea of investing in mining, but metal prices are depressed at that time. And now we've seen metal prices validate the thesis, but miners themselves have just not validated it. I mean, they're still depressed. They're still I would argue maybe that earnings in most of these companies have gone up way more than their share price. In other words, they got cheaper with this move. So, if if you use Yeah. fairly close to spot price uh discounted cash flow projections. Yeah, I agree for evaluation cuz the GDX I pulled it up right now it's at $112. The all-time high previously was at like 64 $65 for uh 10 or 15 years and then it had never gotten anywhere close to that. So, finally it blasted through. But even though that's about double the previous all-time high, I mean, the the earnings power of these businesses, as long as their profit margins, their free cash flow, these things could just keep um reinvesting the free cash flow. There's a lot of good options now. You run a mining company, so there's a lot of good options now with the free cash flow to invest in exploration, to go buy another mining asset for growth. You could maybe do share buybacks if you think your stock is cheap, and you could even potentially issue some type of dividend, too. Well, it wasn't too long ago when, you know, I'm just looking at the chart of gold here, uh, January or February 2024, we were at $2,000 an ounce. At that time, I was acquiring, looking to acquire a mine, and it was being priced at a gold price of about $1,500. So, you had a, you know, $500 conservative margin to price the asset. And in the middle of all that, gold began to go up to 2500. And they were like, well, let's re readjust this to, you know, let's just say that the price is now 1,800. So, we readjusted to get to the more appropriate valuation. But, I mean, it wasn't too long ago when we were talking about 2,000 being potentially expensive, and now we're 5,500 pretty much now. and and I'm not sure we're done here. And uh you know, I don't I don't know. It just seems like gold prices could be cut in half and and these companies would still be very profitable. So, I don't know. It just there's a lot of margin of safety here embedded in these valuations. Um if you like earnings, you know, what a time to be operating a mine. I mean this is a wonderful time in my opinion but um yeah very exciting. I I uh don't think I've we've ever seen a period like this. It's um you know we can try to go back and think about it but this does seem very unique what we're seeing right now. I think the world's changed a lot uh going forward after the 2008 financial crisis and now we've gotten to the point to whether it's Japan, European Union, China, the US, a lot of these countries the worst asset class, the one that scares me the most is actually government bonds because it just looks with the money supply growth that the governments they don't want to cut spending. They have these crazy programs for green energy. some of these European Union still talking about it. Some of these others with wasteful policies, overregulation, they're wasting a ton of the tax receipts, not on the economy and creating jobs or anything like that, but it's on just wasteful stuff. And so they're just going to monetize government debt. They're going to create new currency and buy government debt and keep funding the government and maintaining the status quo. And that's going to be highly inflationary and bad for the real economy. And I think that's why the metals prices, the gold price, what in every other currency prior to the US dollar was already going parabolic for 12 to 18 months. The gold price in Japanese yen's even crazier than the US dollar gold price. >> I mean, it just seems like we're an emerging market in the US. It's just weird. Um I mean, I I grew up in an emerging market and I've seen currencies collapse and have issues with inflation. This is not very different. this I mean this is you know very similar to what I lived through in the 90s and early 2000s in in Brazil. So, uh, look, I I I don't know. I um I think there's going to be uh it I think [clears throat] I think investors have a very uh difficult task ahead of them where you know most of us have a lot of discipline that look at from the lenses of how much credit we have in the system how much money supply I have this we're going to be looking at these valuations and we're going to be our own enemies in terms of the letting these things play out because the world is so unleashed right now that um we just got to buy these things and not be looking at them because it's going to be volatile. But I don't think he ends here. I think he ends a lot higher. And yeah, that's the way I'm approaching this. I mean, I I've always focused on buying good management, good quality assets. Um that that's that's where my energy goes. And then the other part of my energy is just being patient, right? It's just like letting this play out because it's just so messy the world right now. And we could we could wake up tomorrow and gold could be down 4%. And then the next day it's up another six. That's how messy things are. And I I I don't know. I want to participate in that part of the world. I just want to acquire high quality assets and hold it for for the next 5 to 10 years. I I I think that's the way to really, you know, create wealth here because it's things are going to get wild. Now, you mentioned Brazil. I want to ask you about investing in mining companies in some of these Latin American countries and emerging markets. Do you think with the prices rising, we already saw this in Africa with Ghana, the government wants to renegotiate the royalty tax, uh barold had a mine confiscated in Mali, Mexico has permitting issues with open pit mining. are are we going to see a lot more of this or are the countries the the politicians running these governments going to be realistic because if you're in Argentina and you have a a massive silver mine laid or the one in um Escobal in Guatemala for Pename silver those are worth billions of dollars in net present value of discounted cash flow tabby do you think that these governments are going to be realistic and say we need to fasttrack this mine it's worth billions of dollars of investment and jobs and tax receipts at the current silver prices. We want to fasttrack these things so we can start making money and improve our economy. Are are are these Latin American countries going to have this type attitude or do you think things are headed in the wrong direction? >> No. No. I No. Honestly, if you go back to the 1970s, what you're going to find is the usual aspect is that prices go up and then you get to kind of the middle side of the of the cycle, you begin to see nationalization of mines and governments trying to really make sure that they secure metals through nationalizing operations. And what's now let's talk about what's different this time where South America right now basically most politicians that are on the left that have the ability ability meaning the potential you know thinking behind and the rationale behind trying to acquire these things and nationalize them. I shouldn't say acquire because it's not the word it's just taking over the operations. Um, I I believe that they have a gun in their head right now. I know. I think that the the the whole Venezuela situation has shown that countries like Brazil with Lula or Colombia and others, they still have some left leadership, are very limited on what they can do in terms of screwing things up. So we have this sort of inherent floor of security in the market that is not appreciated by the market yet in the in the South American, Latin America regions. And I don't know, Africa is a whole different ballgame that we could see nationalizations and other things. I I it's not a place I have an edge on. I I don't want to sound like I do, but I don't think South America's wrong going the wrong way or Latin America. I think I think we're going to see a period of you know very it's this is a very prolific part of the world in terms of um you know unexplored and incredible opportunities and I believe that this is going to be you know we're going to see a lot of these things come to fruition in the next 5 to 10 years in in in Latin America given the environment and the link with the United States which needs and requires so with critical metals and their only path to do that is to provide security to Latin America all and and and enable them to, you know, to really operate mines and and other natural resource uh projects that has that have been to your point in some cases neglected or or not able to be developed for for other political reasons. And I so I I I no I I think that that that's just getting started. I think we're going to see a lot more. There's so many cases of make this country great again in Latin America, right? Like new presidents that came in. They're looking to completely revamp the country. Biv is a great example. Argentina is a great examples. El Salvador is a great example. Chile is a great example. You know, then you have potentially Brazil being an example. Colombia has elections coming up here soon. Um, you know, you could see it, you've saw Paraguay is already an example. So, everything is turning right and I shouldn't say right, I should say more businessoriented politicians because people have been framing them as right, but they're just they're just capitalists. I mean, I met with the government in Bolivian. I'm not I didn't think they were right-wing at all. I thought they were very businessoriented. They're trying to, you know, apply changes in the country that have not occurred over um maybe ever. And these are very um know changes that make sense uh from a economic standpoint. And >> Bolivia might have more silver than anyone, right? I think they have a mountain, a giant mountain with over a billion ounces mined silver. It's called Silver Mountain, but it's hardly been explored. So because they haven't had uh really good private property rights for foreign mining companies to make investments there but at the current metals prices I mean they need to come up with some type of balance policy where maybe there's a higher royalty tax the mining company for government royalty tax and then the mining company has to make it what investments into infrastructure schools clean water electricity those types of things to improve in exchange for getting to invest in the mine but if the capital is invested into the mine what that's beneficial for everyone that creates jobs that uh raises the education level. There's higher paying jobs besides just the mining job in the mining town around the mine. So, there's all these beneficial things and then the government gets the tax receipts. I I think like the people that have been anti-mining and anti- capitalism, they're just not thinking that like if the investments are made into the country, there's a you know a middle ground there that can benefit everyone. >> Yeah. I look believe is a place where in the 1500s when the Spaniards came to uh the region they basically found Potosi which was a mountain of silver and that mountain of silver basically financed their operations during that time. I mean it was responsible for most of the silver in the world. that region became the the most populated region in Americas including uh everywhere pretty much and um it's you know believe it was a very relevant part of the world at that time as well and has lost a lot of relevance for most of the reasons you just mentioned um but it's still a very unexplored region of the world and has a lot of resources uh not just not just minerals in terms of metals but also you know energy and other things And um yeah, it's it's a country that the slogan is not let's make believe it great again. It certainly is let's make believe it great for the first time. It I was I was very impressed with the people I met in the government. I was impressed because I um you know very not very often you see the the uh the commitment uh to change things uh so drastically and um you know when you when you realize that and it's the main reason why we have seen lack of foreign capital coming into the this this uh country for so long it's going to be one of those monumental changes in in an economy and I think it's bigger than a lot of other economies we've seen I mean all eyes on vanilla Venezuela and maybe rightly so, but I think Bolivia is that giant that is just under the radar um gaining more and more attention and gaining more and more momentum and would be in my view one of the most uh you know some of the best places to invest in the next five to 10 years just given the you know the the period of depression that they have been to. So you know small changes can can go a long ways when you when you are in in the position like Boliv is right now i.e. look at Argentina right just a few little changes um and we saw quite significant success uh with Malay in Argentina and I think we're going to see the same with with Bolivia if not on steroids. Yeah. And Argentina's had some enormous what copper and gold discoveries, a little bit of silver byproduct, but mostly copper and gold, right, with Viskunia and some of the others. Now, some of these Latin American countries, how do you think they're responding to what the US versus China with this technology arms race kind of this cold war 2.0 over artificial intelligence, data centers, robots, like five or six key technologies, and US and China are trying to secure what? Energy, cheap energy and metals. Do you think if you're a country like Brazil, are they trying to make sure that they don't upset either China or the US that they can make trade deals with both countries or do you think that they're going to have to pick a side? That's a good question. You know, I've used to be more of the camp that we would see Brazil playing, Brazil specifically, just because I'm from there, being sort of the Switzerland of Europe in terms of, you know, doing businesses with everybody and being very neutral from a geopolitical standpoint. But I think we're definitely starting to see the influence of the US in the country forcing you know the country to agree with um a you know commitments with US related firms. um we're seeing and and the reason for is because it's very clear the path that most of you know the US economy will need in terms of the demand capacity of minerals in the future given what's happening with AI and onshoring and a lot of these countries including Brazil have a surplus of energy uh creation uh and solar generation and so that you that will be tapped by most of these US companies and we're seeing the max 7 companies and others engage with projects in in those areas for utility companies and other things and I would expect a lot more of that in the future. So yeah, I I I used to be of the view that this would be a very divided world in terms of how Brazil would, you know, approach the situation with China and US relations, but I'm starting to think that they're leaning on the US side more. And I know it's maybe a contrarian view. A lot of people like to say Brazil is leaning towards China and so forth, but it's not really what I'm seeing from a business standpoint. And I think Lula is is definitely showing his cards recently here that is looking to really try to engage with Trump and the Trump administration as much as possible uh more recently. So there's some significant changes here. So you know does it really matter? People used to say that you know why would you invest in Brazil when Lula is is the president you know and and does it really matter again? You know I don't think so. I I don't think it he has much of a relevance as he used to have in the past uh given the situation and he's very much aware of what happened in Venezuela. He's not stupid. Lula is anything but stupid and you know and I'm not a supporter. I I hate the guy. [laughter] So I I just >> wasn't he involved in that Petro scandal where there was like over hundred billion dollars that was uh stolen or misappropriated embezzlement stuff like that? Yeah, of course. I mean, it it's, you know, or I shouldn't say of course because I'm not a not on the legal aspect of that, but the scandal was was broad enough. It was certainly related to government uh and officials and others. But, you know, I I just think that people have this idea that these politicians are stupid and they are not. I mean, these guys are very clever and they will change their tune if they think uh that they're constrained from a political standpoint. And I think Lula's in that situation right now. >> Oh, yeah. I agree. They're not stupid. They're a lot of them are just corrupt. And so they'll say one thing on TV or on the news, but their their actions and their behaviors behind closed doors will be the opposite. So to add to your points there about the US, I think there's a Brazilian company, I can't remember, it's a junior company. They have a deposit that has potentially heavy rare earth with the desposium and the turbium similar to Chinese rur deposits, but they just negotiated a deal with my alma moater University of Virginia Tech which has a really good uh chemistry department and they're working on rare earth processing up the value chain. So they will be providing the mine supply and then they're going to be working on a pilot plant at my University of Virginia Tech for rare earth value added products and then making magnets. So that's kind of like a potential US partnership deal there. And maybe they'll get like some funding from the Pentagon or Department of Defense, some type of additional grant money. >> Yeah. I mean, Brazil has got some of the best, if you like rare earth, and that's probably the best rare earth, one of the best rare earth potentials in the world that is actually economical. Um, lithium as well. you know, those are two of the most hyped minerals out there that actually, you know, they do have potentially good deposits that can be economic. So, but it's very rare to find these things. And so, uh, rare earth is rare. Good rare earth deposits are rare. Let me put it that way. It's they're very rare. [laughter] Uh, I got to now crappy crappy deposits are not rare. There's plenty out there. So, >> and they're expensive and then tons of your chemical costs and you have all this radioactive byproduct with uranium or thorium. The thorium there's no econom there's no revenue source for it. You have to store it. So, that's just a sinkhole there of funds, wasted funds. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, so I yeah, I just think most of these Latin American countries are sitting in a very strategic position right now and just looking at the evolvement of artificial intelligence, improving the labor markets in those areas and also looking at, you know, the inflows of capital out of US-based assets into those areas. um these places can be true benefiers of of this this uh macro uh landscape that we're seeing and um weakening of the dollar plus suppressing of rates is the some of probably the best mix you can ask for to invest in emerging markets and so you >> well they also have the best deposits right so like Latin America, Africa they have some of the best geology cuz um other than a few new discoveries in Nevada and some lowc cost mines in Canada the majority of the discover discoveries for new copper and gold mines what they're most of them are going to be in Latin America or Africa. >> Yeah. And and you know Africa political environment is a question mark. you know, can you get around that in some companies, some some some countries perhaps some companies are able to navigate that well historically speaking, but if you're seeing this involvement from South America in in in uh I'm sorry, from from the US and South America, I mean, it's it it reduces a massive amount of risk you used to to be, you know, to have to be worried for, you know, like when we invested in Bolivia for the first time, Uh we knew that you know this is mind you this is the largest exporter of the country and fourth largest silver mine in the world now and you know our concern was that this could get nationalized you know and our risk was basically a year because it was that's how much this was being sold for one time free cash flow and now that risk has been taken away in my view like is it really will the new government really try to nationalize the mine and screw up everything they're working on? I don't think so. So, we're now going to see a country that is went from a country discount risk to a maybe a premium relative to other areas like Colombia for instance or maybe Brazil. Um, so yeah, what's a asset worth in that situation? It's crazy. Uh, it could be very very interesting. So, you're saying that Bolivia then is uh in the past it was uninvestable or maybe you because you're a hedge fund manager, you were able to go boots on the ground, bring in people that are uncomfortable with some of the risk, but the average person probably would not or generalist fund manager would not put any capital into Bolivia. You're saying that those things are changing rapidly now that there are going to be more investment opportunities in countries like Bolivia. If the US military is down there in Venezuela, maybe even Venezuela will be investable in the future. Yeah, I look I when I was raising money for that endeavor, it was very difficult to raise money. Either the person got it or they just hated the idea. Um, and it might have been one of the best transactions in history uh of of the mining space because of the situation. You're buying something with silver prices at $15 an ounce with a country that is completely depressed. Nobody wants to touch it and then you have a silver market that changes. You triple your resource. You find a new discovery and then on top of it you have a political shift. So >> it's a lot of tails. Yeah. >> Call ourselves lucky. You know that's fine. But but I'm just saying I'm just saying I guess I guess you know I'm not concerned about what I used to be concerned and but do prices truly reflect that in the country yet? No, I don't think so. I think there's plenty opportunities and this is not an economy that has a stock market or right like they have a bond market but it's financial infrastructure is non-existent basically. Um, so they're going to have to build up the country, right? I mean, if they want to attract capital from outside, uh, this going to require a lot of a lot of infrastructure and they're looking at those those situations. I think the administration is very capable of of understanding those constraints in order to grow and um, you know, I think there's lots of opportunities in those areas. >> Yeah, I agree. And eventually if Venezuela stabilizes in the years ahead there will be opportunities there. I think there's a lot of mining uh 1015 years from now Tabby we we might be talking that Venezuela has better mining than they do oil and natural gas because it's very underexplored there with the potential for copper and gold. They have similar geology what to Brazil and some of the other Latin American countries. I'm not going to name the the person, but I spoke with a very high-profile CEO about about Venezuela and that used to operate in the country very actively and told me that the issue obviously was never ever ever opportunity in the country. There are so many mineral opportunities there and they wish they could perform the way they were performing before and expand their business there. But the writing was on the wall that the the situation politically was shifting. So they exited the country at the right time. But um yeah, I mean it's I do think Venezuela is is a little more tricky than Bolivia. And I'll tell you why. It just truly feels like what's happening in Bolivia needed and it's it's very similar to Argentina and you know it needed no intervention right from the beginning maybe now you've seen some intervention between us and Malay but from the very beginning believe it saw no intervention this was this came from the population that was tired fatigue and wanting a change uh and when you have that kind of level of of um of shift. It's very powerful, right? Because it keeps the government on check and so and it basically removes the opposition from, you know, or the opposition needs to revamp itself and become less, you know, ultra socialist, which is really interesting, right? That's probably what's going to be the case. Don't think that the left is going to go away. It's not going to go away. it's just going to be revamped to something else. And so it, you know, we we've we've changed a lot over the years there. And I think I think those changes are structural, not not cyclical. And they need to focus on what jobs, economic growth, improving the economy so people have a higher standard of living. Uh you're starting to see that. You've seen that first with Argentina over the last three or four years. I think the other Latin American countries are seeing the investment that has come into Argentina. They're seeing that it's uh the economy is steadily improving. So overall, um I think a lot of these other countries like Bolivia and some of the other ones you said they're going to see that they're going to want the investment dollars from mining companies, oil, natural gas. I wanted to ask you as we wrap up here about um as a contrarian because I know for years you were putting out the best like macro charts on how undervalued the gold miners were, the silver miners were, the free cash flow. I mean, some of them at one point, a couple years ago, Tabby, there were one times free cash flow. You mentioned that there was a lot of them at one times cash flow. You're able to buy like um assets for pennies on the dollar, cheap valuations. Things are a little different now. Where are you looking now in terms of good uh risk versus reward uh good contrarian value investments for discounted free cash flow? Right now, >> energy is definitely a place I love energy right now. uh working on lots of things on the energy front. I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities in the future. Those this is similar to what you're referring to where you don't know if you're early or not, but I don't care. It's just really the timing where smart money begins to accumulate and and you know and create value over time. So yes, I'm I've been expanding my network, expanding my capital deployment in this area and also starting to really dive into this this whole sector of the economy where people think oil is going to go away. People think natural gas is a thing of the past and I you know I disagree. I think that particularly oil because gas some people have been linking as you know obviously the the sort of the only way forward here for the next five to seven years in the US to to capture some energy but uh for data centers and other things but I would say that the the oil space looks really really attractive to me so I think that people are overly discounting being overly bearish and that's reflected on the price and I also think that Trump has full control over the oil prices and I just don't believe that that's the case. I and this is not something against Trump. I just don't think anybody has control over uh commodity prices particularly in a world that is so you know that unraveling the way that has been. So yeah I you know I I would uh it's it's it's one place where fresh capital at least on my side it's been deployed. It's it's an energy. So I'm I'm very focused there right now. >> Yeah. To add your points there for free cash flow yield, which is one of the valuation metrics that a lot of value investors use. Now the oil and natural gas companies in the US and Canada, there's pretty much a lot of them across the board. Free cash flow yield between 9 and 15%. There's a lot. So >> yeah. Yeah. I mean, so that's attractive risk versus reward there for for discounted free cash flow companies. >> Yeah. and you start pricing a world where maybe oil prices go back to 80, maybe 100, you know, then you're talking some stupid for cash flow levels. And so it's it's it's interesting. Uh I'm also very focused on these make something great again in South America. Like I think there's plenty plenty angles to to work on deals, structuring deals like we did with St. Christobo in the in Bolivia and uh that that will look attractive here in the near future. Um so investing in Latin America to me those are those are structural changes not cyclical. Same goes for mining and energy is a little behind in that sense but it's the moment to be entering and then seeing that come to fruition in a few years. Uh but I could be wrong. it could happen next month and I'm very wrong and you know unfortunately didn't deploy all the money I wanted but you know I'm also patient I'm you know I'm just planning things ahead here and seeing all right well did very well with mining um do I think it's nope I think this is a core portfolio for the next 5 to 10 years but energy also looks attractive Latin America looks attractive too so >> are you super bullish on uh copper prices cuz there's people out there that like, oh, uh, gold and silver going to have a huge correction and money's going to rotate into copper. I think, you know, there's a lot of copper depending upon the price. So, if the copper price, let's say the copper price is at 5 or $6 a pound, there's a certain amount of supply. If it goes up another dollar to a pound, there's even more supply available. Copper's situation where every dollar or two it goes up a pound, there's even a way way more supply that could come online. Uh it it's so hard to be bearish on a commodity, you know, it's so supply constraint. It's like we have very large amounts of copper in the world. We don't have enough copper above the ground and I don't know 15 years from now could be a very different story. Maybe we finally bring that those metals up. But we're not in that world right now. And we know the demand is going crazy. My view about copper uh you know maybe one or two years ago was that this whole idea that copper really represents cyclicality of the economy and it is what people used to call it the doctor copper the only metal with the PhD in economics. Um I I again for if you looked at from a probability standpoint I think this is a time in history where the changing prices of copper least reflect the economy now because it's purely driven by what's been happening with the lack of discoveries lack of supply and the ongoing structural demand that we're seeing. So >> yeah, it kind of divorced from Yeah. being so cyclical because like you said it separated, it changed because of all the capital expenditure being spent on the new technologies with the data centers, the electric vehicles, all those electrification, all those types of new technologies are all super high metal and cap and copper intensive. >> Yeah, I think divorce is a good word. So uh >> yeah, so like the old view the old view of copper, right, was that like the copper was extremely sensitive to the real economy. consumer spending, things like that. But, you know, if these large tech companies are going to basically be they're going to spend the capital expenditure regardless of how the economy is because they want to keep improving all these different technologies with the data centers, the AI, robotics, all these different things, electric vehicles, driverless cars, all that stuff. Then that's not going to be the copper price is not going to be as sensitive to consumer spending as it was in the past. >> Exactly. Yeah. No, it Yeah. Yeah, the copper space. I'm very bullish the copper space. I'm I'm working on a few deals that I think could be very interesting on that. Um um love copper. Um and u we'll be looking for exposure moving forward here. I mean this is you know they're miners not not just buying copper but uh I think I think this is one of the best uh you know this is this is not one of those hyped commodities that people like to talk about that has a small market. It's quite the opposite. This is a real real market with lack of discoveries, lack of things that are going to come online and good margins. Um and uh I foresee myself being very involved with this in the future. >> Well, the data center buildout is just starting. So like the average person sees that like these tech companies are spending uh hundreds of billions of dollars on capital expenditure expenditure for the data centers. But the only like 10 or 20% of the data centers are already built. The majority of them are either under construction right now or they haven't even been built yet. So as this buildout occurs, that's going to be way more demand what for energy, natural gas, nuclear power, copper, strategic metals. Uh I've seen that they're uh switching what to graphine uh near some of the data center rack. So there's potential for a lot of these different types of metals going forward as long as the tech companies keep spending the capital expenditure. >> Yeah. And look, if I think from a a pillar of capital standpoint, I mean, most of these AI companies, people are talking about these companies are hitting a wall of spending. I I just have a different view on that. They are generating about half a trillion dollars a year in free cash flow, not cash flow, free cash flow. And they have on top of it zero debt in their balance sheet when you look from an aggregate standpoint. And so if you think about how much capital can be rotating out of there either because they're going to leverage up and maybe have 40 50% of that in their balance sheet over the next five to 10 years or they're going to completely evaporate their free cash flow and which again 500 billion dollars a year. Now think about that just if you know if if just a portion of that comes into the mining space which it is coming to the mining space obviously that's why we're seeing the move this could be very dramatic you know in terms of the change and it could be very sustainable move as well in the mining space and so uh this is why >> I think I saw a deal with didn't Amazon just announce a deal with Riotinto for guaranteed copper supply in Arizona I think that was like a surprising deal from a tech company with a minor. Yeah, I mean all these deals actually started back with auto companies if you recall getting deals with these mining companies too. Um trying to secure metals for electrical vehicles and other things mostly lithium and other other copper and other things. And then now data centers are doing the same and so or I should say uh hyperscalers and others uh are starting to do the same uh strategy and so it it is interesting. I I don't think this is the end of it. This is there's more coming. >> Oh, yeah. I agree. Today, actually, today Meta just announced earnings and they just announced $135 billion capital expenditure plan. So, [laughter] so I don't think this is ending anytime soon. Now, I do have worries that there's going to be wasted funds. You know, there's going to be mislications of capital. Oracle took on a bunch of debt. Uh, OpenAI probably is not the leader anymore in the software, but the companies like your your Metas, your Microsofts, your Googles, I mean, they have plenty of free cash flow. Like you said, Google's not going to go bankrupt anytime soon. It's the opposite. They're minting money with uh Google search and and YouTube and all these other uh businesses. >> But if you invest in infrastructure, energy, and materials, you want them to overspend anyways. I mean, you know, it's it's sort of and I I do think you're agree with you. I think you're overspent. They're it's not like they're going to be, oh yeah, let's just spend 20 20% of our free cash flow allocating to this. No, for them is it's a critical threat for their own business to make sure that they scale these things. Otherwise, they believe in their minds that they're going to be out of business. And so, you know, let them come then. Then if they're going to be spending what they're going to say, uh, well, and it's not it's not like believing in their words. Like, I don't want to sound like that. Just look at the numbers. If if you're making 500 billion a year, I mean, let's just say their revenues just grow over the years, right? And it will probably. And if that's the case, then they're going to be generating more cash flow. They're probably going to decide to spend even more on these things. And so, I I know I would not be short the idea that these guys are going to overspend here. That's that's very likely and we need to be aware of that and you know try to benefit from that rotation of capital. The capital is rotating and and what's not rotating at is the valuation, right? We're seeing valuations still frothy on one side and very unfrothy on the other side and but their capital is, you know, is fleeing, you know, at a at a very full speed to energy. um materials and infrastructure you can call infrastructure utilities and all these other things I mean there's so many different buckets of that and who is bridging that uh whole aspect is is are the financials right I mean the financials are going to bridge the capital coming in from from the data centers and the tech companies into into those other pillars that will benefit and ultimately the US can only do so much and then people start looking for resources they eventually go emerging markets, you know, so it's all linked, right? It's all part of the same sort of thesis. So, you just got to figure out what what what is just a pure narrative that doesn't have a lot of grounded supported data behind it or what it is, what isn't. And what I think it is real is is the spending. It will unlikely stop here. It may stop for a quarter or two and then it will come back again. So, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't be short that in for the next 5 to 10 years. >> And a lot of these companies are already starting to what automate more, fire workers. Some of the banks were already automating the process. They announced that they're going to be firing some workers and automating more of the processes. So, you're going to start to see that where the artificial intelligence software keeps improving. The data centers get built out. This is going to what create a higher price floor and a higher uh basease demand usage what for energy and for the metals the materials to maintain build and maintain the data centers for the software and then all the other technologies with the second order effects robots electric vehicles driverless cars drones all those types of additional technologies that are going to be coming online going forward. Yeah, I mean I I I if you looked at a chart of China from the onshore standpoint, forget about AI and all these things and just look at electricity consumption over the last 20 years in China because of becoming the manufacturing blend of the global economy. What would you know what would be the same you know behavior in the US if if we see ourselves doing on shoring and other things? What would be the same if we see that in Europe in other places in Japan and Canada? Um you know clearly electricity consumption and demand has been very low relative to history and that is unlikely to be the case in the future and with consumption going higher obviously requires more infrastructure and so from that angle alone would be a huge aspect of construction and material capacity that would be needed to um to develop things. And so I I I don't know. That's just I'm telling you I I I don't think this is the end of it at all. I think this is the the beginning towards the beginning uh of of of a real mining cycle and and uh a lot of people got caught off guard and are trying to catch up and good luck. It's it's a very complex industry and very few people know what they're doing and lots of money will be misallocated and but the whole industry will benefit in my view. >> Well, this time uh this mining cycle Tavi it's being driven by all the capital expenditure investment from the technology company. So the governments and the technology because it's being talked about the new technologies what for artificial intelligence data centers robots for for military uh or national defense on top of that for advancing technology new potential industries. So it's tied to all the the uh energy and the raw materials the processing of the strategic metals the mining of the melis all tied to the new technologies coming online too. So I think that's what's different from the past. I don't um maybe it was like this way with the uh the internet a couple decades ago, but I can't remember this happening in my lifetime where um the mining spending was so directly tied to all these new technologies cuz what um the past mining cycle was tied to what China industrializing and China manufacturing that was one of the major ones 20 25 years ago for 15 or 20 years. But now this mining cycle is going to be driven by all the investments into the new technologies that are going to be coming online besides just the data centers and the AI software. >> Yeah. I mean it if I mean we're not even talking sovereign demand as well that is is likely to be the case here. As I said securing metals is going to be a big you know piece of the puzzle as well. And uh we're yet to hear central banks more traditionally, maybe China is doing already. I'm sure it is acquiring things like copper and silver, but you know, I think we're yet to see traditional central banks also acquiring these things. You're going to figure out it's better to have that than financial assets so valued. So you might as well rotate into hard assets and have a portfolio of them. Uh make sense? And so that that can be a huge aspect as well when it comes to demand tailwinds for for metals. So >> well, didn't the US just announced like in the last like 12 months they want a strategic metal stockpile. I don't know how much money is allocated, but there's a list of strategic metals. Silver's on the list, I think. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if they're going to pile those up or they're just going to uh invest in in companies that that allow them to to get a a piece of the production. I think that's more likely, but uh >> a mix. They're just throwing things at the wall cuz there's like a South Korean um strategic metal and silver processing deal where South Korean companies building facilities I think in Tennessee and the US military has led a 40% equity. So that's one of the deals. But then Congress is talking about a 2.5 billion package for metal stockpiling. Doesn't sound like very much. But then I think Trump was just at Davos and they've been floating the idea. I don't know if they're going to actually uh allocate all those funds. They're talking about 250 billion in grants for for new nuclear power plants here in the United States. So, I don't know if that number is going to stick, but they're at least talking about 250 billion for um research and development, building the old style nuclear power plants that are big and bloated, the expensive ones and and the new modular new smaller modular reactors. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I guess it's a perk of the world reserve currency, right? I guess like they can lie about the money supply and then they could just allocate all these funds and then um the average person doesn't understand how much of the funds are being spent. Well, how how ironic is the fact that this is all happening right after a world where everybody thought that we're going to go to metaverse and metaverse and buy NFTTS instead of metals and all these other things and now we're back to a world where everybody wants to buy something that is real and just makes so much sense sometimes. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Sorry. Uh, well, I was going to say the metaverse failed initially and he cut it, but now like the with the AI, the ver augmented reality glasses, they're actually bringing it back now. So, like Meta and Google are all having deals with the glasses manufacturers and they're all going to have like augmented reality glasses. So, I don't know what the uh lithiumion batteries or energy usage is, but it's it it was uh five or six years ahead with the metaverse and it was a failure, but now they're bringing a different variation back, but all these things are going to be using what? A lot of metals and a lot of energy. Yeah, I you know yeah I yeah the the world of investing in real assets is just getting it started in my view and so we saw the boom in watches as well and houses and you know then then that back to mining now and and metals and people think energy will never see that I disagree it's going to keep rotating into things you know you you got to keep looking for that dynamic of rotation that tends to occur in a bull market in commodities where whoever is leading or whoever is lagging is likely to be the next leader and you you know I think you just got to be actively looking for these things over time. Well, it paid off for gold investors and silver investors over the last three to five years because people who accumulated then they were buying assets with discounted cash flows for pennies on the dollar and now it's finally starting to pay off. They're making enormous gains. So, some people are panicking and selling maybe because they need cash. They're selling their silver or selling their gold right now. I probably not the best idea to go out and sell all your silver because we don't know that uh what prices the metals prices are going to end up going to. But um I think there's a lot more growth ahead cuz I I don't see governments doing whether it's Japan, the US, European Union, China. I don't see them acting very responsibly expect especially in the what the G7 they seem to be acting like you said like Banana Republic emerging markets with the way they handle their government finances in their bond market. >> Yeah. I Yeah. I mean it [clears throat] we're getting to a very interesting world right now. I'm just enjoying uh the financial aspect of it and sad about society in general because I don't think uh people fully understand what's happening. But uh those that know the rules of the game will understand that you're just going to continue to get diluted and debased if you don't own real assets. And so, but for those that understand the game well will also be an incredible time to be uh an investor in these uh these industries. And so, yeah, I I feel like I'm in a privileged place to be uh in a nichy area of the market that a lot of people are paying attention to, but now they're sort of coming to to me and and it's it's an interesting uh seat to be uh to be in. But uh but I'm sure there's going to be others, right? Uh I think that plenty other opportunities in the markets in other places like Asia, that's a place I'm not really focused, but I'm sure there's going to be a lot of uh opportunities in that region. Um Africa, I'm sure there's going to be lots of things to do there. Um I'm just trying to pick and choose the areas that I think I truly can create value and have an edge on. Otherwise, it's just difficult to be involved. So, um yeah, exciting times ahead for for for those that are in that space of of of commodities and real assets. I think it's going to be a good period ahead. Yeah, I agree. I think there's going to be a lot of money spent now. Not all of it's going to be spent very wisely. the at the Vancouver resource investment conference that was in the last couple days. I think one of the key points of there was a lot of speeches on this is that besides just the mining there needs to be reshoring of the processing the value added parts here for uh uranium enrichment for uh uh oil uh not oil refineries. Well, we have a lot of the oil refineries and now the US refiners are going to get with the cheaper Venezuelan heavy sour crude, but like the strategic metal processing. So you're starting to see stuff that was outsourced for decades now in the US where the US the US invented a lot of the rare earth uh innovations with the magnets and a lot of the stuff US invented it decided it was environmentally unfriendly outsourced it to China and other places didn't want it well now those businesses the uh heavy value added manufacturing with a lot of chemistry and engineering very difficult technical processes those things are starting to come back and there's investment opportunities there. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. It would also mention for those that that like high quality assets operationally, we have to think about world one day and maybe 10 15 years from now where you may have just instead of three to four to 500 people, you know, operating in a mind, you may see a world where you only have 12 people operating a bunch of robots 24/7 with no politics. and what are those margins going to look like? That's that's another thing that comes to mind as well, right? You know, taking the operational risk today of high quality assets could be could pay off in the future um once operational efficiency will will start leading the way in a significant uh form that that could be uh largely mispricing markets today. Of course, that will take a long time to happen, but you have to consider that if you're investing in a mining company for the next 10, 15 years because I I think it's a realistic world. >> Yeah, I think the robots are more likely to go into factories and mining like you said uh rather than the home usage. So, I know like people are looking at like the videos online of the robots trying to cook and do stuff around the house. I think they're more likely to go into factories first, the humanoid robots and then into mines first. >> Mhm. I agree. Well, well, I I want to thank you so much for your time today, Tavi. Uh, your fund hasn't la Azure Capital, Azeria Capital hasn't launched yet. You said you're working through the regulatory stuff right now, so it's not not officially launched yet. So, if my listeners want updates on that and to follow your uh excellent macro charts, how do they do so? >> Well, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate that. They can always find me on X at Tavio Costa or LinkedIn. I have my email address there as well, tavuri capital.com. Uh but they can find it on on on Twitter or ask uh that address. Uh thanks for having me. I really appreciate and great catching up with you. Hope everything is going